General discussion about Islam with my friend

TiLK

Junior Member
Hello.

Today I made my first (not first but at least since I am visiting this web page first) serious discussion about Islam. I was absolutely unsuccessful. My friends main thesis is that Islam is the danger for the world. Mine was that Islam is good religion to follow (I said I am OK to be muslim). I was completely unable to win with my arguments over his arguments against. So Im gona tell about it. All of his arguments were pretty known for me and I though I know the answer for them, but I see its not so.

1. Koran is written by God, Bible by human. Its said that Muhammad had been writing Koran with the help of Allah. In fact, that there are words of Allah, not Muhammeds words. But he told to me that its the same with Bible. There are words of God written by hands of those, who were writing Bible.

2. He told me that he can not accept Islam cause muslims refuse to modify the religion to the new age. Its religion created for the 6th century and now its 21th century so it must be moddified to fit the correct age. I told to him that words in Koran and Muhammads life are historical fact and to follow those examples is correct in every age. No matter what century we have. His answer was that sometimes this is not possible cause the situation has changed.

3. He can not accept religion without human rights. I told to him there is strong idea of human rights in Islam. But he said it can be, but the praxis is different. I had no answer for this. He said that he can not accept religion where woman is raped and than the government stone her to death because she had sex with other man than her husband. You all know this is happening in islamic countries. I know its often agaist the rules of Islam, but when we follow sharia, its really so. One man and two women are equal in the court. When one man rape one woman without other withnesses, he will win the court cause he will say that she is liar. Its really unacceptable.

I know you may say that she was not supposed to be here alone, or you may give me some links, but its not enough I think, maybe we should really think if this idea is correct or not.

In fact the discussion with my friend was not very correct. We both did not know certain facts and we had no exact quotations of holly books or of authorities who study Islam. We talked only as a two friends with opposite opinions. I wrote it in here only to tell you my experience, but if you have somethings to say about it (I hope you do), you are wellcommed.
 

khalidvaltrans

Junior Member
:salam2: brother tilk please do not discus with any anuther religeon person unles u have enogh information abt islam. atherways Shaitan mardood will play with ur mind and take u awy. my Allah azzuwajal sefe u from shaitan.:tti_sister:
 

amirah80

*Fear Allah*
:salam2:


Best when we get into dicussions with non muslims we have to be equipped with the appropriate knowledge of Islam. I have a cousin who is a Preacher and one day he tried to ask me alot of questions I did not even entertain the discussion because I knew I did not have the enough information to refute what he was saying. My point is we have to be very knowledgeable before debating because one question will always lead to another and another in most instances
.
 

mali1

Junior Member
:salam2: brother tilk please do not discus with any anuther religeon person unles u have enogh information abt islam. atherways Shaitan mardood will play with ur mind and take u awy. my Allah azzuwajal sefe u from shaitan.:tti_sister:

I agree.......
 

nori suja'i

Junior Member
assalamualaikum sisters & brothers,
i agree with our sister if possible try not to talk about religion to non muslim friend unless with 'hikmah'. see the clue if he/she really interested to know about our religion, if not no need to argue just say "u with yours & i with mine" that's it as what Allah thought us in AlQur'an (Surah Al-Kafiruun).

1) as claimed by yr friend that Rasulullah Muhammad s.a.w writes the Qur'an with the help of Allah, its totally untrue as we know in history that AlQur'an was given to Rasulallah s.a.w. thru' revelation (thru angel Gabriel) at a different-different places in different-different times not like the previous Books that given to Moosa (Mose) & Iesa (Jesus).
only during sahabah's time-Khalifaah Umar Al Khattab then sugested that AlQur'an made into a book as some of sahabah's who memorised the content were shaheed in the war against the kafiruun.

2) avery muslim dare not change even a word from AlQur'an as once changed, its already not originally as Allah's Words. its already 1408 yrs ago AlQur'an still relevant for muslim all over the world now so why must modify? futhermore there're a lot of muslim 'hafeez' all over the world who able to memorise the content of AlQur'an, once change its no longer Allah's Words.

3) about women in Islam, there a lot of propaganda in the media which potret that women in Islam are being abused.
in fact Islam put women standard higher then what they think. like in poligamy if the woman is a mistress, when her man died only his wife and children entittle for his property but if she's his 2nd wife, in Islam she also entittle to have it.

if yr friend brought up about women in Islam being raped,
what about non muslim women who were being raped all over the world. are they were raped by muslim men?

maasyaaAllah.
sorry for my poor english.
 

TiLK

Junior Member
:salam2: brother tilk please do not discus with any anuther religeon person unles u have enogh information abt islam. atherways Shaitan mardood will play with ur mind and take u awy. my Allah azzuwajal sefe u from shaitan.:tti_sister:
I hope you are joking. Every discussion is possitive. As far as both sites are respectful and honest.
 

TiLK

Junior Member
assalamualaikum sisters & brothers,
i agree with our sister if possible try not to talk about religion to non muslim friend unless with 'hikmah'. see the clue if he/she really interested to know about our religion, if not no need to argue just say "u with yours & i with mine" that's it as what Allah thought us in AlQur'an (Surah Al-Kafiruun).

1) as claimed by yr friend that Rasulullah Muhammad s.a.w writes the Qur'an with the help of Allah, its totally untrue as we know in history that AlQur'an was given to Rasulallah s.a.w. thru' revelation (thru angel Gabriel) at a different-different places in different-different times not like the previous Books that given to Moosa (Mose) & Iesa (Jesus).
only during sahabah's time-Khalifaah Umar Al Khattab then sugested that AlQur'an made into a book as some of sahabah's who memorised the content were shaheed in the war against the kafiruun.

2) avery muslim dare not change even a word from AlQur'an as once changed, its already not originally as Allah's Words. its already 1408 yrs ago AlQur'an still relevant for muslim all over the world now so why must modify? futhermore there're a lot of muslim 'hafeez' all over the world who able to memorise the content of AlQur'an, once change its no longer Allah's Words.

3) about women in Islam, there a lot of propaganda in the media which potret that women in Islam are being abused.
in fact Islam put women standard higher then what they think. like in poligamy if the woman is a mistress, when her man died only his wife and children entittle for his property but if she's his 2nd wife, in Islam she also entittle to have it.

if yr friend brought up about women in Islam being raped,
what about non muslim women who were being raped all over the world. are they were raped by muslim men?

maasyaaAllah.
sorry for my poor english.
Hello. Thanks for your answer.

1. It was me who said that Muhammad wrote Koran with the help of God and bible was made by human. I did not know certain circumstances. But what I wanted to point out is, that he said its not true, that Bible was written by humen. It was written by the hand of humen but it was the God, who was leading their hand on the paper. Btw I did not completely understand your post nr.1 due to foreign words you used but I hope I get the base.

2. I agree with this. I told him aproximately the same.

3. You did not even touch the case I discribed. One woman was raped by one man. There are no withnesses. When we use sharia here, she will go to jail and he will stay free. It is a big problem, I think.
 

TiLK

Junior Member
I agree.......
When my friend asks me why do I think Islam is not dangerous religion, I will answer why I think so. Not to answer him may even be against Islam, I think. Cause every muslim shuold try to keep a good name of Islam and shuold protect desinformations as much as he can. Even he is weak in argues, he should not say "I dont want to talk about this". Its my opinion.

By the way I am not muslim. I accept this religion and I think its religion which is good to follow. I know some good muslims who are wonderful people. You also said "do not discuss with non-muslims". To describe my situation: I am from Slovakia. There are almost no muslims around. I dont know ANY muslim there and all my discussions with muslims are only via internet. I have also visited Turkey two times.
 

Mohsin

abdu'Allah
:salam2: Tilk,

Brother its nice that you have firm beleif in Islam but I think on the point of Rape you are a little confused. First of all I would like to tell you that Zina is different than Rape and it is not like that if the woman could not provide four witnesses she will have to go to jail.
Here is what the scholars have to say about it.
The punishment for rape in Islam is same as the punishment for zina, which is stoning if the perpetrator is married, and one hundred lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married.

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
The scholars are unanimously agreed that the rapist is to be subjected to the hadd punishment if there is clear evidence against him that he deserves the hadd punishment, or if he admits to that. Otherwise, he is to be punished (i.e., if there is no proof that the hadd punishment for zina may be carried out against him because he does not confess, and there are not four witnesses, then the judge may punish him and stipulate a punishment that will deter him and others like him). There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her, which may be proven by her screaming and shouting for help. End quote.
Al-Istidhkaar, 7/146

Secondly:
The rapist is subject to the hadd punishment for zina, even if the rape was not carried out at knife-point or gun-point. If the use of a weapon was threatened, then he is a muhaarib, and is to be subjected to the hadd punishment described in the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“The recompense of those who wage war against Allaah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter”​
[al-Maaidah 5:33]

So the judge has the choice of the four punishments mentioned in this verse, and may choose whichever he thinks is most suitable to attain the objective, which is to spread peace and security in society, and ward off evildoers and aggressors.
So brother just don't worry she is not going to jail as she is innocent rather the man will be punished according to Shari'ah. The Shari'ah is the law from the most Just and how can He let an innocent be punished ?
 

soulzcore

Abd-Allah !!
You did not even touch the case I discribed. One woman was raped by one man. There are no withnesses. When we use sharia here, she will go to jail and he will stay free. It is a big problem, I think.

Could you tell me which hadith or verse from the Holy Quran states this...?
 

TiLK

Junior Member
Could you tell me which hadith or verse from the Holy Quran states this...?
"Oh! ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligation in a fixed period of time reduce them to writing and get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses so that if one of them errs the other can remind her." [Al-Qur’an 2:282]
The explanation is, that woman is emotionaly more unstable than man
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=194587&postcount=29
 

TiLK

Junior Member
:salam2: Tilk,
...There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her, which may be proven by her screaming and shouting for help. End quote.
In other words when there is no one to hear the shouting for help and when there are no wounds on her body, she is helpless. Isnt she?
 

Mohsin

abdu'Allah
In other words when there is no one to hear the shouting for help and when there are no wounds on her body, she is helpless. Isnt she?
I hope that the post atleast have cleared some doubts. Now back to your question, you tell me if there are no signs that she is raped then what judge in the world would punish a man just because someone is saying so.
A judge should look at the evidence rahter than being emotional and punish an innocent and if feels that there are enough evidences than he should punish the guilty accordingly.
 

TiLK

Junior Member
You are right. When there are no proofs of rape, it would be difficoult case for every court on the world. So, when there are any proofs, but no withnesses, is it correct to jail him and not her - according to sharia?
 

Mohsin

abdu'Allah
You are right. When there are no proofs of rape, it would be difficoult case for every court on the world. So, when there are any proofs, but no withnesses, is it correct to jail him and not her - according to sharia?
Brother you just have to read the part that I coloured red in my previous post. i.e. post no. 9
 

Mohsin

abdu'Allah
Just an example.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7147632.stm
Sharia did not work so the saudi king excused her some part of the punishment.
Brother I have heard about the case and we on TTI had a long discussion about it as well. The most I can say about it is that I am not in Saudi and I, as well as you too don't know what exactly happened there, all we got to know was from media.
But still I must say that judges are not infallible and they can sometimes make mistakes too.
 

TiLK

Junior Member
You are right.

When I talk with you guys here, it all seems to so simple to me. You can easily argument to protect Islam when I am talking with you (see all my threads in TTI). But when I try to protect Islam in the confrontation with some people around, I can not success as I wish...
 

mymohsin

Pls mak Duwa 4 me
Salamalaykum,

At first brother as our other Brothers/Sisters said I will also say that we should not involve in debates unless we have good knowledge. But friendly talk or u r trying to explain him about Islam in a friendly way if he is asking u something then its good that u trying to spread the message of Allah. But make sure that u answer all his Question if u dont know then try to findout and answer it as for EVERY QUESTION QURAN AND SUNNAH HAS ANSWERS except what Allah want to hide from us Like the day of judgment. night of Qader.

1. Koran is written by God, Bible by human. Its said that Muhammad had been writing Koran with the help of Allah. In fact, that there are words of Allah, not Muhammeds words. But he told to me that its the same with Bible. There are words of God written by hands of those, who were writing Bible.

To my lil knowledge brother the answer to this very simple u should have said him

OK MY FRIEND IF U SAY BIBLE IS WORDS FROM GOD THEN Y THERE ARE SOME MANY CONTRADICTIONS IN IT GIVE SOME EXAMPLES.

WHERE AS THERE NOT A SINGLE CONTRADICTION IN QURAN NO ONE CAN TAKEOUT A SINGLE CONTRADICTION IN QURAN.

then ask him can u pls comments.

2. He told me that he can not accept Islam cause muslims refuse to modify the religion to the new age. Its religion created for the 6th century and now its 21th century so it must be moddified to fit the correct age. I told to him that words in Koran and Muhammads life are historical fact and to follow those examples is correct in every age. No matter what century we have. His answer was that sometimes this is not possible cause the situation has changed.

Brother here u can say him.

AT FIRST WE MUSLIM DONT FORCE ANYONE TO ACCEPT ISLAM. ITS UPTO U IF U WANNA ACCEPT IT OR NOT AS U WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR UR DEEDS NO ONE ELSE THATS WE (MUSLIMS) BELIVE.

ABOUT MODIFICATION U CAN SAY HIM THAT WE BELIVE IN A GOD WHO IS ALL KNOWING, CREATOR OF EACH AND EVERY THING. SO WHEN HE SAID THAT WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THIS THEN WE WILL LISTEN TO CREATOR.

GIVE HIM EXAMPLE AS U HAVE TAKEN A WASHING MACHINE AND U GET A OPPERATING GUIDE FOR IT FROM ITS CREATOR THEN WHY WE SHOULD FOLLOW SOME OTHER GUIDE WRITEN BY SOMEONE WHO DONT HAVE MUCH KNOWLEDGE.

ASK HIM WHAT IS THE PROBLEM IN TODAYS WORLD U THINK IT CAN'T BE SOLVE BY ISLAMIC LAWS ASK HIM FOR A SINGLE EXAMPLE.

INSHA ALLAH BROTHER BELIVE ME INSHA ALLAH HE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GIVE U A SINGLE ONE INSHA ALLAH.

3. He can not accept religion without human rights. I told to him there is strong idea of human rights in Islam. But he said it can be, but the praxis is different. I had no answer for this. He said that he can not accept religion where woman is raped and than the government stone her to death because she had sex with other man than her husband. You all know this is happening in islamic countries. I know its often agaist the rules of Islam, but when we follow sharia, its really so. One man and two women are equal in the court. When one man rape one woman without other withnesses, he will win the court cause he will say that she is liar. Its really unacceptable.

AGAIN BROTHER U CAN SAY HIM I M NOT FORCING U TO ACCEPT IT I M JUST SHOWING U WHAT IS GOOD AND WHAT IS BAD ITS UPTO U TO CHOOSE. YES BROTHER U HAVE SAID CORRECT THERE IS VERY STRONG RULLING ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF ONE ANOTHER.

YOU CAN SAY HIM IF PEOPLE ARE NOT PRACTICING IT THEN PEOPLE ARE WRONG/BAD NOT THE ISLAM. SAY HIM WHEN U C STONG HUMAN RIGHTS IN ISLAM Y DONT U ACCEPT IT THEM ACCEPT IT AND FOLLOW IT. FORGET ABOUT OTHER IMPROVE URSELF.

EX: WHEN U R CING THAT PEOPLE ARE DRINKING DIRTY WATER EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE PURE FILTER WATER. WHAY U WANT TO FOLLOW OTHER U BE SAFE DRINK PURE WATER.

ABOUT PUNISHMENTS ITS A BIG TOPIC AND BROTHER MOHSIN TO EXPLAIN IT ALHOMDOLILA.

THIS IS ALL TO MY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING PLS CORRECT ME IF I M WRONG FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH. REST ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST.

JAZAK ALLAH.
 
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