Verses 3:199 & 2:62

ibn azem

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, it's more like 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1, in most Christians' minds. I'm working on a slightly different model myself.


Some people translate the Bible's 'Son of God' as 'slave/servant of God'. I'm considering this possibility too, but I still consider myself a Christian, i.e. I believe in the Crucifiction and Resurrection, and that it paid for our sins.

Well I can quote the Qur'an, and parts of the bible itself as well and it becomes clear that noone has the right to be worshiped exept Allah(swt):

"Opeople of the book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was [no more or less than] a messenger of Allah, and His word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit preceding from Him: so believe in Allah and his messengers. Say not "Three": desist!, it is better for you, for Allah is one god, Glory be to Him, Far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissah(4):171

The Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allâh and His Books (see Verse 66:12)]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allâh does not eat). Look how We make the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).

The noble qur'an al Maida (5):75

"Or have they (mankind) chosen gods from the earth who raise the dead If there were therein gods besides Allah then verily both (the heavens and the earth) would have gone to ruin. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the throne from all they ascribe (unto Him)"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Anbia(21):21-22

"Allah coineth a similitude: A man in relation to whom are several partners quarreling, and a man belonging wholly to one man. Are the two equal in similitude? Praise be to Allah, but most of them know not."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Zumar(39):27.

In other words, which would be more conducive of harmony: For an employee to have two bosses quarreling over him, or for each employee to have only one boss?

"Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): If there were other gods along with Him, as they say, then they would have sought a way against the Lord of the Throne. Glorified is He, and High Exalted above what they say! The seven heavens and the earth and all that is therein praise Him, and there is not a thing but hymns his praise; but you understand not their praise. Lo! He is ever Clement, Forgiving."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Israa(17):42-44.

"And say: Praise be to Allah, Who has not taken unto Himself a son, and Who has no partner in the Sovereignty, nor has He any ally through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Israa(17):111.

"Allah has not chosen any son, nor is there any God along with Him; else would each God have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege. Knower of the invisible and the visible! and exalted be He over all that they ascribe as partners (unto Him)!"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Muminoon(23):91-92.

Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)): "He is Allâh, (the) One.
"Allâh-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
"He begets not, nor was He begotten;
"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

the noble Qur'an, Al-ikhlas(112):1-4

In the Bible we read:
  1. "Know therefore this day, and consider [it] in thine heart, that the LORD he [is] God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: [there is] none else." Deuteronomy 4:39.
  2. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3
  3. "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:" Exodus 34:14
  4. "Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11.
  5. "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6
  6. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:6
  7. "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:18.
  8. "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:22
So we see that even the bible tells us this!
 

NewMuslim

Slave of Allah
:salam2:

Well there was a verse in KJV that did:...

:wasalam:
Yep, it's true. I remember reading that verse when I was a Christian, and then realizing that some man put that in there to support the Trinity. Why would a man have to put something in his so-called "Holy Word" to prove his point? Shouldn't it already be there?
:wasalam:
 

NewMuslim

Slave of Allah
...So we see that even the bible tells us this!

Unfortunatly, the Christian argument is that they don't listen to the Old Testament any longer. But, as you can see, the Old Testament contradicts the New Testament a LOT.

Christians say that the Old Testament was the "Old Covenant" and the New Testament is the "New Covenant" (because of what Jesus said in the Bible).

However, there is a contradiction between Jesus and Paul and even Paul contradicts himself in the New Testament. Paul says this:

"Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31

Paul also says this:

2 Corinthians 3:6 - Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

and

2 Corinthians 3:14 - But their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, that same veil is still there, since only in Christ is it set aside.

However, Jesus says:

Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

and

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

and

Matthew 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

and

Matthew 5:20 - For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

and

Matthew 23:23 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone.
 

Tahar

Junior Member
I'm considering this possibility too, but I still consider myself a Christian, i.e. I believe in the Crucifiction and Resurrection, and that it paid for our sins.

With every respect, and I hope I am not offending you, but the "Original Sin" theory does not make sense to me. If Jesus Christ (pbuh) already did the hard-work for us and payed with his life for our sins, then life is meaningless. Why do we still have to prove ourself to God?

Secondly, it doesn't make sense because when I go to the bank, I can withdraw funds only from my own account. I will find available what I have saved only. Nobody, including the rich federal-reserve, is going to mysteriously replenish my savings account.

The same principle applies in life. We will be judged in the hereafter for our own actions. We will get credit for the good deeds we have done, and lose points where we had failed and made bad choices. It's a better system of justice, and it makes lots of sense.
 

zaki

New Member
Praise be to Allaah.

What you refer to in your question is mentioned in two similar aayaat in the Qur’aan. The first of them is the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [al-Baqarah 2:62]

The second is the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians – whosoever believed in Allaah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [al-Maa’idah 5:69]

In order to understand these aayaat correctly, we need to refer to the scholars of Tafseer (Qur’aanic commentary). The great Imaam Ismaa’eel ibn Katheer, may Allaah have mercy on him, said in his tafseer of the aayah from Soorat al-Baqarah:

“Allaah, may He be exalted, points out that whoever of the previous nations did well and was obedient, will have a good reward, and this will be the case for everyone who follows the Unlettered Prophet [Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until the Hour comes – he will have eternal happiness, and they will not fear what they are going to face, nor will they grieve for what they have left behind. As Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): ‘No doubt! Verily, the awliya’ of Allaah [i.e., those who believe in the Oneness of Allaah and fear Allaah much, and love Allaah much], no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve.’ [Yoonus 10:62]. And Allaah tells us what the angels say to the believers at the time of death (interpretation of the meaning): ‘Verily, those who say, “Our Lord is Allaah,” then they istaqaamu [stood straight, i.e., truly followed Islam], on them the angels will descend (at the time of their death) (saying): “Fear not, nor grieve! But receive the glad tidings of Paradise which you have been promised!”’ [Fussilat 41:30]

As far as the Jews are concerning, their faith meant believing in the Tawraat (original Torah) and following the way of Moosa (peace be upon him) until ‘Eesa came, after which whoever continued to follow the Torah and the way of Moosa, and did not leave this and follow ‘Eesa, was doomed. As far as the Christians are concerned, their faith meant believing in the Injeel (original Gospel) and following the laws of ‘Eesa; whoever did this was a believer whose faith was acceptable to Allaah, until Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came, after which whoever did not follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and leave the way of ‘Eesa and the Injeel that he had been following before, was doomed.

The aayah (interpretation of the meaning), “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85] is a statement that Allaah will not accept any way or deed from anyone, after sending His Final Messenger, except those that are in accordance with the laws of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Prior to this, however, anyone who followed the Prophet of his own time was on the Straight Path of salvation. So the Jews were those who followed Moosa (peace be upon him) and referred to the Tawraat for judgement at that time. When Allaah sent ‘Eesa (peace be upon him), the Children of Israel were obliged to follow him and obey him, and so they and others who followed him became Christians.. When Allaah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as the Final Prophet and a Messenger to all the children of Adam, all of mankind was obliged to believe in him and obey him, and refrain from what he prohibited. Those who did so are the true believers. The ummah (nation) of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) are called the believers because of their deep eemaan (faith) and conviction, and because they believe in all the past Prophets and in the prophesied events that are yet to come.”

Commenting on the aayah in Soorat al-Baqarah, Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“What is meant is that every group believed in Allaah and the Last Day, which is the appointed Day of Reckoning, and did righteous deeds. But after Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent to both mankind and the jinn, true belief can only be in accordance with the way of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whoever follows his way will not fear the future or grieve for what they leave behind.
 

searching soul

New Member
With every respect, and I hope I am not offending you, but the "Original Sin" theory does not make sense to me. If Jesus Christ (pbuh) already did the hard-work for us and payed with his life for our sins, then life is meaningless. Why do we still have to prove ourself to God?

Secondly, it doesn't make sense because when I go to the bank, I can withdraw funds only from my own account. I will find available what I have saved only. Nobody, including the rich federal-reserve, is going to mysteriously replenish my savings account.

The same principle applies in life. We will be judged in the hereafter for our own actions. We will get credit for the good deeds we have done, and lose points where we had failed and made bad choices. It's a better system of justice, and it makes lots of sense.
The idea is, no one deserves salvation on their own merit. Sin is just evidence of underlying evil in all of us. However many good deeds we do won't change what we essentially are. If we were truly good, we would do good all the time, instead of whenever we had something to gain from it (including personal satisfaction, in my opinion). Evil doesn't enter Heaven unless 'clothed' with faith - I believe it's Paul who describes it as 'clothing' of the sinners. Faith in God* is the only way we can get into Heaven. Why is not made clear. Perhaps that's just the way God chose to select people. Perhaps it's His personal or practical preference for who He'll share eternity with. Maybe it's a reward for pleasing Him in this way. This is my interpretation, anyway. There is massive variation between denominations and individuals.

*The part of this which I know I'm unorthodox about is that I'm not sure most Christian's understanding of what 'faith in Jesus' is is quite right. The traditional and popular interpretation is that immediate salvation (a lot of modern Christians think that most of the population will come to be saved eventually - more problems with translation) is awarded only to those who believe in Jesus as described in the New Testament. I think that there are exceptions shown to that principle in the Bible, suggesting that that interpretation is flawed, and I find philosophical problems with defining Jesus in the first place.
 

Tahar

Junior Member
The idea is, no one deserves salvation on their own merit. Sin is just evidence of underlying evil in all of us. However many good deeds we do won't change what we essentially are
.

I believe in the goodness of people and I don't think we are inherently evil. Have you ever looked at the face of a baby? How can such innocence be evil?

If we were truly good, we would do good all the time, instead of whenever we had something to gain from it (including personal satisfaction, in my opinion)
.

If that was the case, the test would not be fun. How are we to know what's good, if we don't see what is evil? And what's beautiful, if we never saw what is terribly ugly? The two extremes are necessary for it all to make sense.


I think that there are exceptions shown to that principle in the Bible, suggesting that that interpretation is flawed, and I find philosophical problems with defining Jesus in the first place.

I salute your quest for the truth. You will get there eventually. It's a great sign that you are questioning your beliefs. That's the first stage to find the ultimate truth. We will be here for you in case you have questions. Peace.
 

NewMuslim

Slave of Allah
The idea is, no one deserves salvation on their own merit. Sin is just evidence of underlying evil in all of us. However many good deeds we do won't change what we essentially are. If we were truly good, we would do good all the time, instead of whenever we had something to gain from it (including personal satisfaction, in my opinion).

That means that I can be a mass murderer and accept Christ on my deathbed and still get the same reward you'd get in Heaven? That's not justice. Yes, I would be evil, but my evil would be "clothed" with faith.

There is massive variation between denominations and individuals.

Why? There are different Muslim sects only because of the Hadith and not because of the Literal Word of Allah (the Qur'an). But, in Christianity, every sect is divided because of the Bible. Why wouldn't God make it more clear when it comes to such ground-shaking beliefs such as the Trinity, the iterpretation of the Old Testament/New Testament, etc.?
 

SHAH01

New Member
help 4 u

assalamualikum,
brova... u have to understand to whom this revelation was speaking upon at the time... 1st sum info u must no to undastand (wen allah sent books eg bible, torah, etc the followers of the divine i say again devine and authentic scriptures which are untoched nor tamperd with..... the followers of those books will enter paradise.... not those christians and jews who beleive in the corrupt books of nowadayz... and do bare in mind whom sent the torah, injil, zabor etc.... all from allah... so the jews and christians who followed the real and untamperd books given by allah surely will enter jannah) exactly wat brova masboot sd but in more detail if u dnt mind.
 

7anbalee

New Member
Assalamo Alaykom..

The verse is talking about the christians who are at the time of jesus who used to worship Allah(alone) it's not talking about the christians who worship Jesus these days.
 

searching soul

New Member
.
I believe in the goodness of people and I don't think we are inherently evil. Have you ever looked at the face of a baby? How can such innocence be evil?
Babies, I'm not sure about. The Bible doesn't mention what happens when they die, or whether they deserve punishment before they've demonstrated sin. It also doesn't mention the fate of the severely mentally retarded, or of less intelligent species, but then if none of these will read and understand the Bible, there's no need for it to. If we know that God is always either just, merciful or gracious, that's all we should need to know with regard to the fairness of everyone's fate. My personal opinion is that we aren't evil because we sin, we sin because we are evil. If we haven't yet been able to harm anyone else, that doesn't mean that we wouldn't if given the chance, and that we aren't more concerned with our own welfare than others'. If people aren't sent to Hell because they are evil, why are they? Because they sin, even though they aren't evil? To me, this is what doesn't seem fair, because if you don't define sin as an expression of selfishness (evil) then people are being punished for breaking arbitrary rules, which may be more difficult for some to keep than others, due to life experiences and understanding.

If that was the case, the test would not be fun. How are we to know what's good, if we don't see what is evil? And what's beautiful, if we never saw what is terribly ugly? The two extremes are necessary for it all to make sense.
I don't really understand your point. But, I do disagree that it's necessary to know evil to know good, e.t.c. The problem is one of semantics. The definition of 'know' would have to change in the course of an argument for this in order for it to work. If you never saw evil, you wouldn't have a word for it. You would also not have a word for good or discuss it in relation to evil. You would experience good and may understand its processes. In this sense you would 'know' it. However, you wouldn't think about it in the way that we can, because it would be all you could imagine. It would be as difficult as trying to think about consciousness as a pure, abstract concept. We subjectively experience only consciousness, wherever it is directed or whatever occupies it. We don't subjectively experience unconsciousness. Therefore we can't imagine pure consciousness, without sensory experiences, thought, emotion e.t.c., unless we've experienced it.

I salute your quest for the truth. You will get there eventually. It's a great sign that you are questioning your beliefs. That's the first stage to find the ultimate truth. We will be here for you in case you have questions. Peace.
Thank you. :)
 

searching soul

New Member
That means that I can be a mass murderer and accept Christ on my deathbed and still get the same reward you'd get in Heaven? That's not justice. Yes, I would be evil, but my evil would be "clothed" with faith.
The only one who deserves the positive side of justice is God. For this reason, He is justified in not delivering the negative side of justice to those who actually deserve it, when it pleases Him not to. If He were to deliver justice to everyone, we'd all go to Hell. We've all been selfish, although this has expressed itself in different ways because we've all had different sets of temptations. We seem to measure 'levels' of selfishness and evil by how severe the consequences of these temptations are on others. This is irrational. No soul chooses which temptations they get - they seem to arise from a mixture of genes and life experiences. If we're fortunate enough to have never experienced the need to end another life in order to get our fix of pleasure or release of pain, it's not to our credit. All that's to our credit is how we deal with the temptations we are faced with. If your temptations are petty and you give in to them, you're not necessarily better than someone who equally gives into their, more consequential temptations, as you both understand that it is selfish. Also remember that some temptations are stronger than others, regardless of their nature. One person may have to experience much personal suffering in order to forsake the same sin that another could forsake relatively easily. Only God knows what we've sacrificed to do the right thing, so only God should judge. He has, and His word is that 'none is good, not even one'.

Instead of us all going to Hell, some of us will receive mercy (not getting the punishment we deserve) and even grace (getting rewards we don't deserve). God is the one who's been unjustly wronged by us, and He has the right to get justice for Himself however is necessary. If you complain that you don't want someone evil to enter Heaven, it would only be right for you to accept that you shouldn't go there either. That would suggest that you'd rather others suffered as justice for yourself, who doesn't deserve it, than yourself suffer for justice for God, who does. That another's sin may be more severe in your eyes is irrelevant. In God's perfect eyes, we've all fallen short.

All this is what I tell myself so as to forgive others. Matthew 6:14-15 (NIV) "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Why? There are different Muslim sects only because of the Hadith and not because of the Literal Word of Allah (the Qur'an). But, in Christianity, every sect is divided because of the Bible. Why wouldn't God make it more clear when it comes to such ground-shaking beliefs such as the Trinity, the iterpretation of the Old Testament/New Testament, etc.?
Why assume that God would make it so easy for us? There are also denominations within Islam, I believe. It doesn't seem to matter to God in the Bible so much whether most people get every little detail right, or as you say, they would be made less ambiguous. The ambiguous nature of some parts does result in us (those who are serious and not just cultural Christians) reading the Bible very carefully and thoughtfully. I actually prefer school teachers and lecturers who let you be unsure for a while. When you do understand, you've got a better understanding of the general subject because you've thought, compared and contrasted and discovered the principles in a way you aren't forced to if handed the correct conclusion on a plate.
 

Karima

Junior Member
Asalamualkium,

Think about this....When reading the Bible or Qur'an, what happens to us? Is it for us to have for a guideline to understand our Creator, and to live in a way pleasing to God/Allah?

The only solution to our varied opinions is to pray to God/Allah for knowledge and wisdom in what is true.

Each one of us has 'intentions' of doing good, doing things for others, doing things for ourselves, etc. We have choices to make, and we should always trust God/Allah in what we should do, and not take anything for granted.

Going to heaven/paradise is not a contest. It is a blessing that we should be honored to even be privileged to have. This is what God/Allah has waiting for us...a place he has prepared for each of us.

If we turn our backs away from God/Allah, why should he want us with him in eternity?

Our intentions when we do for others should be for the glory of God/Allah...because he made us, and we should be glad to be there for others to help, share, give, etc.

When I read these posts, I am learning from each of you something good that God/Allah reveals through our lives of trials and errors and the knowledge of some whom God/Allah has graced us with to learn from.

What counts is what we do with what we have learned, so far....and to continue to please God/Allah and obey, from the guidance of the prophets that God/Allah has chosen.

Salam
 

Tahar

Junior Member
To SearchingSoul

I will touch on two of your points:
First, no one is evil by nature. People choose to do evil deeds. Let go of that depressing Christian concept "original sin". You are not evil. The prophets, companions, their followers, the believers, the huge masses of selfless men and women doing good in the world are not evil. There is lots of goodness in this world.

Second, we are all tested in different ways, who said that a child's temptation to steal a cookie from its jar is less strong than a corrupt politician contemplating taking a huge bribe. The circumstances are different, the temptation, however, is very similar. Just ask the child.

I feel you have not yet resolved the fundamental existential question as to why we are here? What is our purpose in this life?
 

Tahar

Junior Member
Salam.

Yea but what if there's a christian that doesn't take Isa as god? Does he also go to hell?

After Issa (Jesus Christ (pbuh)) God has spoken again. The new message is comprised in the holy Quran, and we should listen to what it says. Everything else that came before it, becomes obsolete.

I can draw you an analogy with computer operating systems. Any PC could run on DOS but why do it when WindowsXP is available.


PS: As to your question, only Allah makes those decisions.
 
Top