Saudis campaign against child marriage

[q8penpals]

Assalam aliekum

There are many different issues at play here (an yes, we get plenty of news stories about child marriages from all over the Muslim world here in Kuwait).

The first issue - whether a child of 8 or 9 or so is EMOTIONALLY mature enough to get married, puberty aside. We all know that the onset of puberty (the actual BEGINNING of puberty) starts an on-slaught of bodily change, hormonal fluxuations, and emotional growth. Therefore, just because a girl has STARTED to menstruate, or a boy has first ENTERED puberty, that does NOT necessarily make them a mature adult, ready for marriage. Many people change personalities and habits DURING puberty, therefore, if you married someone just at the onset of puberty, they could seem to be a completely different person several years later.

The second issue - a HUGE age gap in a marriage. Seriously, WHAT do elderly men see in barely pubescent girls? Even if the girl were 25 and marries a guy 65 - what the heck do they have in common? He could have grandkids older than her?! And when it is a man the age of the girl's father, and she is a CHILD (the 8 or 9 year olds mentioned in the article), seriously, SERIOUSLY does that man really think he is getting a life-match, a dedicated wife, a woman ready to be a mother to another being?!?! Heck, she is most likely going to be a young widow, probably with a few kids, and no husband to take care of her. That is just selfish of the men! If the article was about people marrying their post-pubescent girls off to boys/men say, 5 years older than them, I don't think it would be such an issue. At least they are in the same generation!

The third issue - the age of Aisha at her marriage to the Prophet; irrelevent completely. As shortly as 100 years ago, the average life expectancy on the earth was about 50 years (less in many areas). Many people got married in their early teens - but again, it was generally people within the same generation, not geriatric men marrying children. Many cultures married young years ago, and when we remember that the Prophet was on the earth 1400 years ago, the age of Aisha is of no consequence.

The fourth issue - the "selling" of girls into marriage (and this is reported in Kuwait quite a bit) where the father "holds" the girls dowry for her (and of course, she never gets it). Any father who does that is dirt.

The fifth issue - consent of such children into marriage - again, it goes to the maturity issue. I have been teaching all my adult life, plus babysat and did children's programs at the library and town hall - I have NEVER IN MY LIFE met a child under the age of 14 that would be able to comprehend what it takes to actually get a married adult. Again, just because a girl is menstruating does not make her ready for marriage.

And finally, the 6th issue - COME ON PEOPLE! Picture your grandpa with a 10 year old girl (or even a teenager)!!!! EEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

The most basic requirement in Islam is that the people getting married must have entered puberty and consent to the marriage; it is the PARENT'S RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that their children are EMOTIONALLY MATURE enough to be married (parents of boys too - many boys just want to be "big boys" and are not ready to be responsible for the care and well-being of themselves, let alone a wife and children). I have known too many young teenage girls who insist they are ready to be married and pout and cry and fight with their parents about getting married - that behaviour in itself shows those particular girls are NOT mature enough to get married.

These are all my humble thoughts to make you think.

Lana

 

[Abel213]

Assalam aliekum

There are many different issues at play here (an yes, we get plenty of news stories about child marriages from all over the Muslim world here in Kuwait).

The first issue - whether a child of 8 or 9 or so is EMOTIONALLY mature enough to get married, puberty aside. We all know that the onset of puberty (the actual BEGINNING of puberty) starts an on-slaught of bodily change, hormonal fluxuations, and emotional growth. Therefore, just because a girl has STARTED to menstruate, or a boy has first ENTERED puberty, that does NOT necessarily make them a mature adult, ready for marriage. Many people change personalities and habits DURING puberty, therefore, if you married someone just at the onset of puberty, they could seem to be a completely different person several years later.

The second issue - a HUGE age gap in a marriage. Seriously, WHAT do elderly men see in barely pubescent girls? Even if the girl were 25 and marries a guy 65 - what the heck do they have in common? He could have grandkids older than her?! And when it is a man the age of the girl's father, and she is a CHILD (the 8 or 9 year olds mentioned in the article), seriously, SERIOUSLY does that man really think he is getting a life-match, a dedicated wife, a woman ready to be a mother to another being?!?! Heck, she is most likely going to be a young widow, probably with a few kids, and no husband to take care of her. That is just selfish of the men! If the article was about people marrying their post-pubescent girls off to boys/men say, 5 years older than them, I don't think it would be such an issue. At least they are in the same generation!

The third issue - the age of Aisha at her marriage to the Prophet; irrelevent completely. As shortly as 100 years ago, the average life expectancy on the earth was about 50 years (less in many areas). Many people got married in their early teens - but again, it was generally people within the same generation, not geriatric men marrying children. Many cultures married young years ago, and when we remember that the Prophet was on the earth 1400 years ago, the age of Aisha is of no consequence.

The fourth issue - the "selling" of girls into marriage (and this is reported in Kuwait quite a bit) where the father "holds" the girls dowry for her (and of course, she never gets it). Any father who does that is dirt.

The fifth issue - consent of such children into marriage - again, it goes to the maturity issue. I have been teaching all my adult life, plus babysat and did children's programs at the library and town hall - I have NEVER IN MY LIFE met a child under the age of 14 that would be able to comprehend what it takes to actually get a married adult. Again, just because a girl is menstruating does not make her ready for marriage.

And finally, the 6th issue - COME ON PEOPLE! Picture your grandpa with a 10 year old girl (or even a teenager)!!!! EEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

The most basic requirement in Islam is that the people getting married must have entered puberty and consent to the marriage; it is the PARENT'S RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that their children are EMOTIONALLY MATURE enough to be married (parents of boys too - many boys just want to be "big boys" and are not ready to be responsible for the care and well-being of themselves, let alone a wife and children). I have known too many young teenage girls who insist they are ready to be married and pout and cry and fight with their parents about getting married - that behaviour in itself shows those particular girls are NOT mature enough to get married.

These are all my humble thoughts to make you think.

Lana

:salam2:

I understand your feelings, but I fell you are not looking outside of your perspective. This 10 years old girl in Afghanistan is in a family of 12 children and they are poor without much food or medicine. The family is starving and the father cannot provide. The sons go and sell gum on the street, some of them learn to make guns or some even must leave their families forever because they are too expensive. A man is close friends with this family and he feels the pity for them, so he offers to marry their young daughter and he will help them financially. The family asks the daughter and she says ok I will do it. What do you think is the other option for this girl? Go to university, get a job? Allow her family to starve? This man is a savior for this family and for this girl. Plz, think about these issues because not every1 on earth is fortunate enough to be able to choose all aspect of the life.

 

[q8penpals]

Assalam aliekum

Using the family you described as a base, why wouldn't you marry your daughter off to a man just a few years older? Why a man the age of her father? Surely there have to be men of a closer marriageable age than the age of her father, or older? If she is living in Afghanistan, the average life expectency in afghanistan TODAY is 44 years old, and Afghnistan has more men in the marriageable age group than there are women.

So, this girl marries a guy her father's age, pops out a few kids in the first few years of her marriage, and then her husband dies, and now she is a young widow with a few kids - how marriageable is she now? Look at the facts - especially in poor countries, men are less likely to marry women that already have children - why should he use his scarce resources to feed and clothe children that aren't his? I am not saying this is the Islamic thing, but it is an unfortunate truth.

And what girls are the boys her age marrying then, if the young girls marry the old guys? The young boys have to wait until they are old to find a bride - and then marry a really young girl, because all the ladies their age are already married (or widowed with kids), thus perpetuating a down-ward spiral of society.

You say I haven't looked outside my perspective - I have traveled extensively all over the world, and I can tell you, there is plenty wrong in the world for children already, without having to become an adult sooner than they are ready to. You want my true perspective? It is up to ADULTS to be responsible for their CHILDREN. If this supposed family in Afghanistan had 12 kids, because they truly believed that they were supposed to have 12 kids and Allah would provide, does that include marrying your child off to an old man? The child should not have to be convinced to do something that she is most likely not ready to do, by guilt of her father's not being able to care for the children that he made.

And then, marrying her off to have her out of his house is one thing, but why to an old man? Why not to someone in her own generation (if even a bit older) so that they can share things in common, raise their children together, grow old together?

I looked at your profile - you are but a mere 19 years old; I am old enough to be your mother and have experienced quite a bit in and around the world. If you were my son, I would make sure I would sit down with you and discuss what makes a good husband and a good marriage, and if you were in any way not ready for the huge, grave responsibility of being a loving husband and father, I would advise you to wait to get married. I don't think that these parents marrying their pre-teen daughters off have had that conversation with their daughters. In Kuwait, I have read many stories of little girls (not Kuwaiti, but in Kuwait) that have been married off to old men and they end up in a horrible situation - the girls don't know how to cook, clean, launder, have sex, or take care of a sick child - because they are children themselves!

My first husband was 9 years older than me and even those 9 years presented problems. We were at different points in our lives; we had different historical life experiences; we were at different maturity levels; and while the age difference was not specifically the cause of our divorce, it WAS a problem in some things. I am not saying that all marriages with large age gaps will have problems, but it is just one more obstacle in an already difficult world.

And, why don't we hear more stories of older women marrying young boys? People use the Prophet's marriage to Aisha as an example of men marrying young girls, but wasn't the Prophet's wife Khadija 15-20 years older than He? And that was his First marriage, the marriage and wife that he had the longest! So why wouldn't the man you mentioned in Afghanistan with 12 kids marry off his sons to older women to get them out of the house? One can argue both ways.

But alas, I don't want to argue, so I will post no more about the subject. I will not reply any more to this thread.

Lana

 

[Abel213]

Assalam aliekum



Using the family you described as a base, why wouldn't you marry your daughter off to a man just a few years older? Why a man the age of her father? Surely there have to be men of a closer marriageable age than the age of her father, or older? If she is living in Afghanistan, the average life expectency in afghanistan TODAY is 44 years old, and Afghnistan has more men in the marriageable age group than there are women.

44 age expectancy is because so many infants die at ages 2,3,4 and 5, if they live past that than they can get old.

So, this girl marries a guy her father's age, pops out a few kids in the first few years of her marriage, and then her husband dies, and now she is a young widow with a few kids - how marriageable is she now? Look at the facts - especially in poor countries, men are less likely to marry women that already have children - why should he use his scarce resources to feed and clothe children that aren't his? I am not saying this is the Islamic thing, but it is an unfortunate truth.

if he died, than his brother marries her usually


And what girls are the boys her age marrying then, if the young girls marry the old guys? The young boys have to wait until they are old to find a bride - and then marry a really young girl, because all the ladies their age are already married (or widowed with kids), thus perpetuating a down-ward spiral of society.

her age boys have no resources, no jobs and are just trying to help their own families.

You say I haven't looked outside my perspective - I have traveled extensively all over the world, and I can tell you, there is plenty wrong in the world for children already, without having to become an adult sooner than they are ready to. You want my true perspective? It is up to ADULTS to be responsible for their CHILDREN. If this supposed family in Afghanistan had 12 kids, because they truly believed that they were supposed to have 12 kids and Allah would provide, does that include marrying your child off to an old man? The child should not have to be convinced to do something that she is most likely not ready to do, by guilt of her father's not being able to care for the children that he made.

these are average ppl, because they are poor they rely on children to help them in the fields and there is no contraceptive, they dont do it for fun. afghan children want to help their parents and family, just like kids all over the world. if they think marriage is the best for their family, they will surely do that alhamdullilah

And then, marrying her off to have her out of his house is one thing, but why to an old man? Why not to someone in her own generation (if even a bit older) so that they can share things in common, raise their children together, grow old together?


older men have resources, the young ones who are looking for a wife usually marry a cousin before they have another wife and they are more established, inshallah


I looked at your profile - you are but a mere 19 years old; I am old enough to be your mother and have experienced quite a bit in and around the world. If you were my son, I would make sure I would sit down with you and discuss what makes a good husband and a good marriage, and if you were in any way not ready for the huge, grave responsibility of being a loving husband and father, I would advise you to wait to get married. I don't think that these parents marrying their pre-teen daughters off have had that conversation with their daughters. In Kuwait, I have read many stories of little girls (not Kuwaiti, but in Kuwait) that have been married off to old men and they end up in a horrible situation - the girls don't know how to cook, clean, launder, have sex, or take care of a sick child - because they are children themselves!

i am an afghan person sister, i am 19 years old but i know about my country and what these people are going through. good husband good marriage is different in afghanistan than what you are thinking. ppl are poor there and have to survive, plz understand. sister these girls know more about housework than any other people in the world, i am telling you the situation as it is in reality.

My first husband was 9 years older than me and even those 9 years presented problems. We were at different points in our lives; we had different historical life experiences; we were at different maturity levels; and while the age difference was not specifically the cause of our divorce, it WAS a problem in some things. I am not saying that all marriages with large age gaps will have problems, but it is just one more obstacle in an already difficult world.

the marriage in these places is not the kind that you are thinking about

And, why don't we hear more stories of older women marrying young boys? People use the Prophet's marriage to Aisha as an example of men marrying young girls, but wasn't the Prophet's wife Khadija 15-20 years older than He? And that was his First marriage, the marriage and wife that he had the longest! So why wouldn't the man you mentioned in Afghanistan with 12 kids marry off his sons to older women to get them out of the house? One can argue both ways.

there is no problem with older women, i never say anything about that.

But alas, I don't want to argue, so I will post no more about the subject. I will not reply any more to this thread.



Lana

if you honestly care about these girls, than you should try to understand how bad their situation is. how bad is this situation. its so bad. ppl are like living like animals. on the street, no food, no water, nothing. they have to make a life out of this. plz try to understand

 

[Aapa]

Salaam,

This is what I feared. We are now in the speculation arena. The orginial article was written on an emotional level. I did a little research. The group of women activists who are behind the presentation of the new legislation are backed up by an office in Washington, DC.
So now we enter a new arena. This is politically motivated. The agenda behind the legislation is not as simple as it sounds. One woman was expelled from a university.
What I am suggesting is we really need to undestand the motive behind this movement.
I am not suggesting that I agree with child brides. However, we need to have more information before we can respond.
It upsets me when our members feel they cannot respond. We need our forum to be inclusive and not exclusive..we have brillant minds. Nor should this post be closed. We need facts.

 

[Searching_soul]

:salam2:

Well we all know that our beloved Prophet (peace be upon him) married Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) at the age of 9. But Does that mean that we are allowed as well? Did any of the companions marry a woman at that age, while they were the BEST at following the Sunnah of the prophet? I don't Recall anyone doing that, but please help me if im wrong.

Maybe this is an exception and it was allowed only for the prophet, just like he was allowed to marry 11 wives while we aren't. And its for a purpose that he married Aisha. There are lots of reasons for it. And the major one, is to teach her the Deen relating to the affairs of wives and husbands so that it could be taught to us later on through traditions (Hadeeths). And When men marry girls at younger ages now, i don't think they are doing them any benefit.

 

[jaffarabduraheem]

This is getting ridiculous.

I see that the example of Rasul Allah's marriage to 11 wives and our limit of 4 is brought up quite a bit to support the theory that ordinary Muslimun are not allowed marriages of the type discussed in this thread. It should be noted that the reason we can definitively say that the average Muslim is limited to 4 wives is because it is stated as such in Al-Quran. We also note that unless Al-Quran or Rasul Allah (saaws) states otherwise, we are permitted if not required to follow his example.

Let us not allow this wicked western mindset to lead us to judge the deen of Al-Islam or assume that we know better than Allah when a person is ready for marriage. The primary purpose of marriage is procreation which a person is able to do at puberty, no "mental preparation" necessary. We are allowed to count age not to determine the rules of things like this, but as a passing curiosity (it's been so many years since this and that etc.). When you begin to use years and age to determine right and wrong, you have fallen into kufr and you need to re-evaluate what it means to say, "La ilaha il Allah." Allah's rules are perfect and permanent and totally guiltless. If you find fault with them, rest assured Allah is not wrong.

 

[amirah80]

:salam2:

I will be closing the thread due to the following reasons.

1) Because this was permissable not haram. When expressing your views and deciding to go against something permissable please bring your daleel. The Prophet (saws) prohibited alot of things that were permissable at one point in Islam. This was not one of them.

Also, just because something is permissable does not mean it is mandatory for you to do. So if you decide not to partake in it is your business but trying to hender of the families that have daughters at 15 or 16 that want to marry a man 30 is hers. Alot, of people have issues with a man taking 4 wives. This is permissable for a man and not haram the same as child marriages. So we as muslims have no right to go against what is permissable by Allah and think you have better reasoning than he.

2) The Grand Mufti of Saudia Sheikh Adul-Aziz Al-Shiekh has warned the parents not to marry their daughter off to men over their 50's. Not because it is haram but because of others reasons he stated.

3)The motive the group had that promoted the story is irrevelent. Irrevelent why? Because it is not a lie and this things are happening. This is not some conspirarcy against Islam. This is stating the facts and is in Saudia news along with other papers. The thing is when facts are brought to light in any situation and is the truth we need to clear the misconceptions not anticipate a parties motive why did they say that but defend our religion when there is just case.


4) The topic is straying from the subject at hand. "Against the will of the Child" and that is not acceptable. This part is what goes againt Shariah!