Is Islam Spread by the Sword?

alkathiri

As-Shafaa'i(Brother)
:salam2:

Yup , islam is spread by the sword. But it is not the sword the warriors use. It is the sword of the INTELLECT. LOL....

Check this out..

[yt]uLoWGozTkgY&NR[/yt]

Can anyone do an attachment. JazakALLAH khir. Thanks
 

curious

New Member
Not convinced

I am quite amazed to think that anyone can believe that was a good answer - just to take the example of Indonesia which he used, it is true to say that Islam did not arrive in Indonesia at the point of the sword, but it is certainly maintained by that sword - the massacre of thousands of Christians in Ambon, the Maluccas islands, East Timor demonstrate this, along with the burning of thousands of churches, the displacement of hundreds of thousands and the forced conversion of whole villiages. The fact that Islam has not wiped out every religious minority in lands in which it is established is hardly proof positive that Islam was not spread by the sword. In fact, the amount of violence against religious minorities in countries that are not totally islamic suggests a different picture. One could look at Nigeria, the Phillipines, Thailand and Sudan to name but a few. I am not saying that the violence is all Muslim in all of these conflicts, but the conflicts are all between Muslims and non-Muslims. If Muslims are going to argue that Islam is a religion of peace, they would do better to look for examples of peaceful and tolerant Islamic states, where non-muslims are not forced to become muslim, and muslims are free to change religion if they so wish, without hindrance and persecution. I am not aware of many muslim majority country in which both of these happen (Turkey perhaps..), but maybe someone could correct me on this. The greatest arguement in favour of the peacefulness of Islam would be the establishment of such a state.
 

ibn azem

Super Moderator
Staff member
Question:
Was Islam spread by the sword?.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.


We have already stated in question no. 34830 that jihad is of two types: taking the initiative in fighting and jihad in self-defence.


Undoubtedly taking the initiative in fighting has a great effect in spreading Islam and bringing people into the religion of Allaah in crowds. Hence the hearts of the enemies of Islam are filled with fear of jihad.


In the English-language Muslim World Magazine it says: There should be some kind of fear in the western world, one of the causes of which is that since the time it first appeared in Makkah, Islam has never decreased in numbers, rather it has always continued to increase and spread. Moreover Islam is not only a religion, rather one of its pillars is jihad.


Robert Bean says: The Muslims conquered the entire world before and they could do it again.


The Orientalists wanted to slander Islam by claiming that it was spread by the sword.


The orientalist Thomas Arnold wrote his book The Preaching of Islam with the aim of killing off the spirit of jihad among the Muslims and proving that Islam was not spread by the sword, rather that it spread by means of peaceful preaching, free from any use of force.


The Muslims fell into the trap that was set up for them. When they heard the orientalists’ accusations that Islam was spread by the sword, they said: You are mistaken, listen to a refutation from one of your own people, this Thomas says such and such.


The defeatists among the Muslims come out to defend Islam, and they want to disavow Islam of this so-called lie, so they deny that Islam was spread by the sword, and they say that jihad is not prescribed in Islam, except in the case of self-defence. There is no such thing in Islam as taking the initiative in fighting in their view.



This goes against what the Muslim scholars have stated, let alone the fact that it goes against the Qur’aan and Sunnah.
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 28/263.


The purpose is that all religion should be for Allaah alone, and that the word of Allaah should be supreme. The word of Allaah is a comprehensive phrase that refers to His words that are contained in His Book. Hence Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Indeed We have sent Our Messengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance (justice) that mankind may keep up justice”
[al-Hadeed 57:25]


The purpose behind sending the Messengers and revealing the Books was so that mankind might keep up justice with regard to the rights of Allaah and the rights of His creation. Then Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And We brought forth iron wherein is mighty power (in matters of war), as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allaah may test who it is that will help Him (His religion) and His Messengers in the unseen”
[al-Hadeed 27:25]


So whoever deviates from the Book is to be brought back with iron, i.e. by force. Hence the soundness of the religion is based on the Qur’aan and the Sword. It was narrated that Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) commanded us to strike with this, meaning the sword, whoever turns away from this, meaning the Qur’aan.


Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Faroosiyyah (p.18):
Allaah sent him – meaning the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) – with the guiding Book and the conquering sword, ahead of the Hour, so that Allaah alone would be worshipped with no partner or associate, and his provision was placed beneath the shade of his sword and spear. Allaah has established the religion of Islam with proof and evidence, and with the sword and spear, both together and inseparable.
This is some of the evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah. The evidence clearly indicates that the sword is one of the most important means that led to the spread of Islam.


1 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“For had it not been that Allaah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of Allaah is mentioned much would surely, have been pulled down. Verily, Allaah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allaah is All-Strong, All-Mighty”
[al-Hajj 22:40]


“And if Allaah did not check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief. But Allaah is full of bounty to the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)”
[al-Baqarah 2:251]


2 – Allaah has commanded us to prepare the means of fighting against the kuffaar and frightening them. He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war (tanks, planes, missiles, artillery) to threaten the enemy of Allaah and your enemy, and others besides whom, you may not know but whom Allaah does know”
[al-Anfaal 8:60]


If Islam was only spread by peaceful means, what would the kuffaar have to be afraid of? Of mere words spoken on the tongue? In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been supported with fear as far as a month’s journey.” Would the kuffaar be afraid of being told, “become Muslim, but if you do not then you are free to believe and do whatever you want”? or were they afraid of jihad and the imposition of the jizyah and being humiliated? That may make them enter Islam so that they may be spared this humiliation.


3 – When the Messenger called people to Islam, his call was accompanied by the sword, and he commanded his leaders to do likewise, so that when the people saw the serious of the Muslims in calling people to their religion, that dispelled any confusion.


Al-Bukhaari (3009) and Muslim (2406) narrated that Sahl ibn Sa’d (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said on the day of Khaybar: “Tomorrow I will give the banner to a man at whose hands victory will come, one who loves Allaah and His Messenger, and Allaah and His Messenger love him.” The people spent that night wondering which of them would be given the banner and all of them were hoping for it. Then he (the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) said, “Where is ‘Ali?” It was said, “His eye is hurting.” So he spat in his eyes and made du’aa’ for him, and he was healed, as if there had not been anything wrong with him. Then he gave him the flag and he [‘Ali] said: “Shall I fight them so that they will be like us?” He said: “Go ahead, until you reach their encampment, then call them to Islam and tell them what they are obliged to do, for by Allaah if Allaah were to guide a man at your hands that would be better for you than having red camels [the best kind].”
So this call to Islam was accompanied by the force of arms.


Muslim (3261) narrated that Buraydah said: When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) appointed a commander to lead an army or a raiding party, he would advise him to fear Allaah with regard to himself and the Muslims with him, then he said: “Fight in the name of Allaah and for the sake of Allaah. Fight those who disbelieve in Allaah, fight but do not steal from the war booty (before it is shared out), betray, or mutilate. Do not kill children. If you meet your enemy of the mushrikeen, call them to three things, and whichever one of them they respond to, accept that from them and leave them alone. Then call them to Islam and if they respond, accept that from them and leave them alone. If they refuse but they pay the jizyah, then they have responded to you, so accept that from them and leave them alone. If they refuse then seek the help of Allaah and fight them…”


So the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told his commanders to call the kuffaar to Islam whilst wielding their swords over their heads. If they refused to become Muslim then they should pay the jizyah with humility. If they refused then there was nothing left for them but the sword – “If they refuse then seek the help of Allaah and fight them”


4 – The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been sent ahead of the Hour with the sword so that Allaah will be worshipped alone, and my provision has been placed in the shade of my spear, and humiliation has been decreed for those who go against my command, and whoever imitates a people is one of them.” Narrated by Ahmad, 4869; Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2831.


The fact that the sword and power were means of spreading Islam is not a sources of shame for Islam, rather it is one of its strengths and virtues, because that makes people adhere to that which will benefit them in this world and in the Hereafter. Many people are foolish and lacking in wisdom and knowledge, and if they are left to their own devices they will remain blinded to the truth, indulging in their whims and desires. So Allaah has prescribed jihad in order to bring them back to the truth and to that which will benefit them. Undoubtedly wisdom dictates that the fool should be prevented from doing that which will harm him, and should be forced to do that which will benefit him.


Al-Bukhaari (4557) narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “ ‘You (true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunnah) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind’ [Aal- Imraan 3:110 – interpretation of the meaning].” He said: “You are the best (i.e., the most beneficial) of people for mankind, you bring them in the chains that are around their necks until they enter Islam.” Can people be brought in chains except in the case of jihad??


This is something for which Islam deserves to be praised, not condemned. The defeatists should fear Allaah lest they distort this religion and cause it to become weak on the basis of the claim that it is a religion of peace. Yes, it is the religion of peace but in the sense of saving all of mankind from worshipping anything other than Allaah and submitting all of mankind to the rule of Allaah. This is the religion of Allaah, not the ideas of any person or the product of human thought, so that those who promote it should feel ashamed to state its ultimate goal, which is that all religion (worship) should be for Allaah alone. When the ideas that people follow are all produced by human beings and the systems and laws that control their lives are all made up by human beings, then in this case each idea and each system has the right to live safely within its own borders so long as it does not transgress the borders of others, so the various ideas and laws can co-exist and not try to destroy one another. But when there is a divine system and law, and alongside it there are human systems and laws, then the matter is fundamentally different, and the divine law has the right to remove the barriers and free people from enslavement to human beings…
Fiqh al-Da’wah by Sayyid Qutb, 217-222.


It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (12/14):
Islam spread by means of proof and evidence to those who listened to the message and responded to it, and it spread by means of force and the sword to those who were stubborn and arrogant, until they were overwhelmed and became no longer stubborn, and submitted to that reality.

And Allaah knows best.


 

ibn azem

Super Moderator
Staff member
[SIZE=+2]Islam spread by the sword?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]The myth and the reality[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]By Sherif Mohammed[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Among the most widely believed myths about Islam in the West today is the myth of forcible conversion to Islam. Many Westerners do believe that Islam is so widespread in the world today simply because of a "holy campaign of terror" carried out by the early Muslims to convert non-Muslims to Islam. Non-Muslims were offered the freedom to choose either Islam or death.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]In a discussion with a Baptist Minister he said to me that "Muslims tend to kill non-Muslims and anyone who disagrees with them". In a syndicated column appearing in over 30 papers (on July 23rd, 1994) entitled, "Muslim persecution of Christians increasing" the author blames many Muslims countries for persecuting Christians then he quotes the Qur'an, "There is no compulsion in Religion" and ends the quote by rudely writing "Really?".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]How to confront such misconceptions? First, there is no need for us to be apologetic. We Muslims should search for the truth and present it as it is. This is how we have been instructed by Allah (SWT) "Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject."(18:29) Islam is the religion of the Truth. The Qur'an is the book of the Truth. "We sent down the Qur'an in Truth and in Truth has it descended." (17:105) "Put your trust in Allah for you are on the path of the manifest Truth."(27:79)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Therefore, we should ask ourselves first, before we are asked by anyone else, what is the truth? Did Muslims really force others to convert to Islam? Is there any evidence for consistent forcible conversion throughout the Islamic history? As a matter of fact, there is no such evidence anywhere in the history of Islam. Many distinguised Western historians have attested this fact-- foremost among whom is Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his book, "The Preaching of Islam". Also there is Marshall G. Hodgson in his book, "The Venture of Islam", Albert Hourani in his book, "A History of the Arab People", Ira Lapidus in his book, "History of Islamic Societies", L.S. Starorianos in his book, "A Global Hisotry, the Human Heritage" and many others. In fact, there is substantial evidence to the contrary. We have already seen in a previous *khutbah* that Muslims were often seen as liberators of the oppressed people everywhere.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The question that remains to be answered is why then so many people have chosen Islam throughout the more than 1400 years of its history. Islam has penetrated the Middle East, North Africa, Spain, West Africa, East Africa, Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Afghanistan, India, Western China, and the Malay archipelago. Islam in all these regions replaced so many other well-established religions: Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism and animism. What are the reasons behind the triumph of Islam over all these religions in so many different places at so many different times?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]First and foremost, Islam is an amazing blend of simplicity and rationality: a very simple religion yet very rational at the same time. Professor Hodgson has explained the reasons for the popularity of Islam as follows: "Muslims made a personal appeal to people's religious consciousness. On the level of straight argument, they often put forward the populistic intelligibility of Islam. Muslims commonly ridiculed, in the name of intellectual good sense, the more mythically convoluted teachings of older traditions. This could seem attractively straightforward to people dissatisfied with taking things on faith from a learned priest whose mysteries they could not comprehend. A single Creator, to be worshipped by each person for himself, on the basis of revelation that had been given to a famous prophet whom millions already acknolwedged. This was at once intelligible and plausible."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] The unambiguous and uncompromising belief in the Unity, the Greatness, the Wisdom of God, the Creator of the universe, is unparalleled among other religions. The French professor Edouard Montet said, "The dogma of the unity of God...has always been proclaimed in the Qur'an with a grandeur, a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of pure conviction which is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam. A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvellous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Besides its simple and rational creed, Islam offers an impressive set of rituals which has gained the admiration and, subsequently, the conversion of many non-Muslims. The second pillar of Islam, **salah**, the prayer, has been described as follows by Sir Arnold, "The religion of the Muslim is continuously present with him and, in the daily prayer, manifests itself in a solemn and impressive ritual which cannot leave either the worshipper or the spectator unaffected." Then Sir Arnold narrated the story of an Egyptian Jew who converted to Islam at the end of the 13th century mainly because of the sight of the **Juma'a** prayer. Actually, it is not only in the 13th century that people converted to Islam because of the prayers; it just happened a few years ago in Ottawa that a non-Muslim Canadian woman converted to Islam because of **Juma'a** prayers. She used to go to the Ottawa Mosque on Friday and pray among the sisters for several months. She loved the prayer and eventually she embraced Islam.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] In addition to the prayers, the other pillars of Islam, **Zakah**, **Hajj**,**Siyam**, have always been factors in attracting many hearts to Islam. Up until the present day, one still meets converts who were impressed by the social justice of Islam brilliantly expressed in the payment of **Zakah**. The genius of **Hajj** and **Siyam** has always been a determining factor in the conversion of many people. It is this union of rationalism and ritualism that explains the power that Islam has exercised over the hearts and minds of so many people. Islam simply gives the truth, neat and clear in a visible and tangible form. The neatness and clarity of Islam was presented to human beings in the form of a miraculous book, the Qur'an. The marvellous power and beauty of the words of the Qur'an have always been a decisive factor in conversion to Islam. The famous Jewish American convert to Islam, Maryam Jameelah, cited the Qur'an as the major factor of her conversion. After a deep study of both the Old Testament and the Qur'an, the contrast between the two scriptures became increasingly evident to her until she firmly believed that the Qur'an was indeed God's message to the human race.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] A conference of Christian missionaries in 1887 was discussing why Islam has almost swept away Crhistianity from the Middle East. What did Islam offer these people to forsake Christianity for good? One of the missionaries was insightful enough to say the following: "Islam brought out the fundamental dogmas of the Unity and Greatness of God, that He is mindful and Righteous. It proclaimed the responsibility of man, a future life, a Day of Judgement and stern retribution to fall upon the wicked, and enforced the duties of prayer, alms-giving and fasting. It replaced monkishness by manliness, it gave hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind and recognition to the fundamental facts of human nature."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] The formidable rationalism, ritualism and clarity of Islam did not only lead the Christians of the Middle East to forsake Christianity and embrace Islam in the past. It continues to do so with Christinas in the West to the presnt day. An Australian-born Christain who converted to Islam four months ago and who was studying here with us at Queen's wrote in her story of conversion to Islam, "Christianity continued to be difficult for me. So much didn't make sense, the trinity, the idea that Jesus was God incarnate, the worship of Mary, the Saints, or jesus, rather than God. The priests told me to leave reason behind". The she went on to say, "Could Muhammad really be a messenger? Could the Qur'an be God's word? I kept reading the Qur'an, it told me that Eve wasn't alone to blame for the fall, that Jesus was a messenger, that people would question the authenticity of Muhammad's claim to revelation but that if they tried to write something as wise, consistent and rational they would fail. This seemed true. Islam asked me to use my intelligence to contemplate God, it encouraged me to seek knowledge." Then at the end of her sincere search for the truth she prayed to God saying, "Dear God, I believe in You, I believe in the compelling and majestic words of the Qur'an and I believe in the prophethood of your messenger Muhammad (SAW)."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Another Muslim sister, from California, who was a practising Christian and an active member in her nearby Presbyterian church, wrote in her conversion story that despite her active affiliation with the church, she always had serious questions about the fundamentlas of Chrsitianity which did not make sense to her. She debated her questions with her friends but never came up with good answers. The church couldn't give them good answers either, they only told them to "have faith". All her questions were answered when she took a course about Islam. Listen to her own words. "This class brought back all of the concerns that I had about Christianity. As I learned about Islam, all my questions were answered. All of us are not punished for Adam's original sin. Adam asked God for forgiveness and our merciful, loving God forgave him. God doesn't require a blood sacrifice in payment for sin. We must sincerely ask for forgiveness and amend our ways. Jesus wasn't God, he was a prophet like all of the other prophets. This answered all of my questions about the trinity and the nature of Jesus. I found a teaching that put everything in its proper perspective and appealed to my heart and my intellect. It seemed natural. It wasn't confusing. I had been searching and I had found a place to rest my faith."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] My dear brothers and sisters, Islam is so strong and so self-assured that it does not need to use force to attract others to it. The moral and intellectual superiority of Islam over all other religions has manifested itself so clearly throughout the history of Islam. Despite all of the ills of Muslims everywhere, Islam continues to be the fastest growing religion on earth. Professor Huston Smith of the MIT in his book, "The Religions of Man" says, "In some areas where Islam and Christianity are competing for converts, Islam is gaining at a rate of 10 to 1."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Ambassador Herman Ellis, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign Affirs of the House of Represntatives of the United States Congress on June 24th, 1985, said, "The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighbourhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account. Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Yes, something is right about Islam and that's why it has attracted so many people throughout its 1400 years of history.



[/SIZE]
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
I am quite amazed to think that anyone can believe that was a good answer - just to take the example of Indonesia which he used, it is true to say that Islam did not arrive in Indonesia at the point of the sword, but it is certainly maintained by that sword - the massacre of thousands of Christians in Ambon, the Maluccas islands, East Timor demonstrate this, along with the burning of thousands of churches, the displacement of hundreds of thousands and the forced conversion of whole villiages. The fact that Islam has not wiped out every religious minority in lands in which it is established is hardly proof positive that Islam was not spread by the sword. In fact, the amount of violence against religious minorities in countries that are not totally islamic suggests a different picture. One could look at Nigeria, the Phillipines, Thailand and Sudan to name but a few. I am not saying that the violence is all Muslim in all of these conflicts, but the conflicts are all between Muslims and non-Muslims. If Muslims are going to argue that Islam is a religion of peace, they would do better to look for examples of peaceful and tolerant Islamic states, where non-muslims are not forced to become muslim, and muslims are free to change religion if they so wish, without hindrance and persecution. I am not aware of many muslim majority country in which both of these happen (Turkey perhaps..), but maybe someone could correct me on this. The greatest arguement in favour of the peacefulness of Islam would be the establishment of such a state.

I understand your point of view. And I agree that it seems hypocritical that some Muslims say you can't force someone to convert. But all of a sudden that rule changes when someone decides to convert from Islam to another religion. Why? Certainly modern politics should never be used as an example for peace. Politics are immoral and any time religion mixes with politics, the end result is chaos and destruction.

However, this just serves as an example of how Christians and other religions have a sort of double standard for Islam. Take Christianity for example. Was Christianity spread through peaceful means? Hardly! There's a quote that comes t mind (I don't remember who said it) that goes something like, "Buddha came to Asia on elephants, Jesus came on cannonballs." And it's the truth. The crusades, the Inquisition (ever heard of the movie Saw? The director said most of the torture devices used it in were inspired by or were torture devices used in during the Inquisition), the countless wars fought in the name of Jesus and Christianity. And the brutal and bloody forced colonization and civilization of "uncivilized" peoples. But do people flip out on Christians any more for it and tell them that their religion is one of terror and destruction? No. So why is that?
If you want to know what true Islam is - what the truth about any religion is - don't look at the followers. If everyone looked at the examples set by the followers of a certain religion, I'm sure the whole world would be atheists!
 

alkathiri

As-Shafaa'i(Brother)
Well done

If you want to know what true Islam is - what the truth about any religion is - don't look at the followers. If everyone looked at the examples set by the followers of a certain religion, I'm sure the whole world would be atheists!


:salam2:
Very nicely said...
It is not islam that is the problem, it is some muslims that cause problems. Alhamdulilah it is not the majority of muslims.

:SMILY346:
 

kashif tahir

New Member
:salam2:

Yup , islam is spread by the sword. But it is not the sword the warriors use. It is the sword of the INTELLECT. LOL....

Check this out..

[yt]uLoWGozTkgY&NR[/yt]

Can anyone do an attachment. JazakALLAH khir. Thanks

:ma: why in america and euorpe non muslims are accepting islam rapidly.is there any sword beeng used?
 

Rashadi

Junior Member
I am quite amazed to think that anyone can believe that was a good answer - just to take the example of Indonesia which he used, it is true to say that Islam did not arrive in Indonesia at the point of the sword, but it is certainly maintained by that sword - the massacre of thousands of Christians in Ambon, the Maluccas islands, East Timor demonstrate this, along with the burning of thousands of churches, the displacement of hundreds of thousands and the forced conversion of whole villiages. The fact that Islam has not wiped out every religious minority in lands in which it is established is hardly proof positive that Islam was not spread by the sword. In fact, the amount of violence against religious minorities in countries that are not totally islamic suggests a different picture. One could look at Nigeria, the Phillipines, Thailand and Sudan to name but a few. I am not saying that the violence is all Muslim in all of these conflicts, but the conflicts are all between Muslims and non-Muslims. If Muslims are going to argue that Islam is a religion of peace, they would do better to look for examples of peaceful and tolerant Islamic states, where non-muslims are not forced to become muslim, and muslims are free to change religion if they so wish, without hindrance and persecution. I am not aware of many muslim majority country in which both of these happen (Turkey perhaps..), but maybe someone could correct me on this. The greatest arguement in favour of the peacefulness of Islam would be the establishment of such a state.

Well if you are going to play that game of what some ignorant Muslims have done recently, I can say the same of how Serbs raped Muslim women, slaughtered 300,000 thousand Bosnians, destroyed mosques and more. The same can be said of the Russians and what they did, or what about what Christians did to other Christians? In my native country (Iraq), it was because of Islam that some of oldest denominations survived or else they would have long been wiped out by the European churches. No one has killed more people on earth than Christians have and no one has killed more Christians than they themselves have. So please, let's not be absurd and play this little blame game because many Muslims in the "Islamic world" are far from Islam. there are close to a million Christians in Iraq today and they do not suffer any more than Muslims, and in fact, it is Muslims who suffer most in their own countries because of opressive regimes who are not Islamic at all.

As for Sudan, there are more than 3 million sothern Sudanese who live in the north and if it were that bad they would not live there. The converting to other religion is another absurd statement because no learned Muslim has ever left Islam and never would. But if you think an uneducated man without any Islamic knowledge who converts for money, food, medicine, education or marriage is "conversion" then all I can do is laugh because I don't consider that conversion. I don't judge any religion by what some people to but if I wanted to ndo so, my former religion (Christianity) would be in a world of trouble because no one comes close to what they have done just in the last 200 years alone.
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
I totally agree with Dr Zakir Naik that particularly Islamisation of people in South East Asia. Is not by sword, rifle or A-bomb nor was lured via money. People in Malaya for example embraced Islam when Sultan Muzaffar (hindu name was Parameswara) embraced Islam after meeting Arabs trader. With him, the whole nation embraced Islam. No single blood was dropped. This happen before Portugese, Dutch and British colonialism. For over 200 years Malaya (now Malaysia) was colonialised but almost no native Malays embraced christianity except those in Singapore and Indonesia. Today you can say 99.9% native Malays are moslem (good or bad but they will acknowledged they are moslem). France ruled Algeria for many years, why majority still moslem?
 

Faiza619

Strangers on earth
Mashaalah Mashaalah Allahu Akbar Allahu Akbar.
Zakir Naik is just great.
I was very happy with his explanation.
Mashaalah
 

xSharingan01x

TraVeLer
I am quite amazed to think that anyone can believe that was a good answer - just to take the example of Indonesia which he used, it is true to say that Islam did not arrive in Indonesia at the point of the sword, but it is certainly maintained by that sword - the massacre of thousands of Christians in Ambon, the Maluccas islands, East Timor demonstrate this, along with the burning of thousands of churches, the displacement of hundreds of thousands and the forced conversion of whole villiages.

I'm not sure why you're amazed, I don't think you should be.
You conveniently forget to mention that Islam was present and firmly established in Indonesia prior to Christianity which only came to Indonesia at the advent of European colonialist [Duthc].
Do I need to mention how the Europeans massacred thousands of people and converted thousands other to Christianity? If your claim is true then after the departure of the Dutch from Indonesia, native Christians (who were really converts from hindu, animalist, and Islam) should have been wiped out.

Your example of East Timur and other islands in Indonesia is very silly and false. People of East Timur may wanted their 'independence' to establish their own separate identity, but you know which two powers supported the brutal repression against East Timur?


England and USA gave their unconditional support to Indonesian military, ignoring call by 'human rights organizations'.

Indonesia didn't persecute the people of East Timor because they are Christian or out of religious belief, they simply wanted to stop any Island from seceding.
This is simply a political issue, I'm not sure why you believe it to be a religious one.

How do you think Christianity spread to the Philippines?
You Christians are just plain silly, you slam on other religions and people for committing 'massacres and aggression' when you conveniently ignore your own bloody history.How do you think Christianity spread to other places in Europe? People were passing out pamphlets? I won't even mention the Spanish Inquisition.

Sure every religion of their bad moments, but by far Islam has the cleanest track record and Christianity is not even close. I find it silly when Christians start accusing Islam of 'this and that'.

In Thailand Muslims are a small minority [mainly in the south], so I suggest you do more research on the situation in Thailand.


In fact, the amount of violence against religious minorities in countries that are not totally islamic suggests a different picture. One could look at Nigeria, the Phillipines, Thailand and Sudan to name but a few.

Once again Muslims are the religious minority in Philippines and Thailand. I suggest you do more research on the issue rather than making conclusion based on bias, ignorance, and assumptions.
As I said earlier, Majority of the Philippines were Muslims prior to the Spanish conquest.
Muslims there just didn't peacefully 'become converts to Christianity', I suggest you read about the brutal and repressive acts carried out by Spaniards, w which ultimately lead to Philippines having a majority Christian identity. If anything one can make a great argument about how Christianity was spread by the sword in Philippines.

This brutality against the Muslims is continuing presently by the Philippine government.





If Muslims are going to argue that Islam is a religion of peace, they would do better to look for examples of peaceful and tolerant Islamic states, where non-muslims are not forced to become muslim, and muslims are free to change religion if they so wish, without hindrance and persecution. I am not aware of many muslim majority country in which both of these happen (Turkey perhaps..), but maybe someone could correct me on this. The greatest arguement in favour of the peacefulness of Islam would be the establishment of such a state.

Errrr,
I'm not sure where you're getting this none sense about non Muslims begin forced to become Muslims. Are you making a reference to history or current events? I assure there is no such phenomena in the Muslim world. I've lived in a Muslim country with a significant religious minority (hindus) and I've never witnessed anything similar to what you claim.

There is no compulsion in Islam. What is so hard to understand?

You're suggesting Muslim countries become like Turkey? (who in reality aspires to be like Western countries with their secularism and moral filth). A true Muslim would never accept such silly proposals.

Forgive us for not being able to be like you Christians, who has thrown the Law of God behind their back. Forgive us for not picking and choosing what to follow in our religion, and forgive us for placing God before our whims and desire. Also forgive us for refusing and resisting to accept moral degradation of our societies.
We cannot be like you, rather we choose not to be like you.

Sorry Islam is not a 'personal' part time' thing that you do at your home.

The greatest argument in favor of the peacefulness of Islam would be the establishment of such a state.

Let me rephrase that for you, "the greatest argument in favor of the peacefulness of Islam" would be to actually have an Islamic State so you can examine how the Muslims act, behave, and deal with other nations and minority.
I fail to understand why you would think a secular state like Turkey would be an example of "peacefulness of Islam". Don't you understand, secularism and religion do not go together? Especially Islam.
 

nyerekareem

abdur-rahman
:salam2:

i used to believe that islam was once spread by the sword, but when you really take the time to sort out the facts, you'll see that the whole violence thing wasn't the case. i will admt that that there are muslims out there dong things in the name of islam that are contrary to islamic values; but they are hardly the majority.

only 2 out of every 10 muslims in the world are arabs. taking into consideration that the arabs were the first to embrace islam, why aren't arabs the majority of muslims? generally, when people invade lands, the invaders end up being the majority. look at america for example; the country was all native american, yet through violence and disease the whites became the majority. and if the other invaders didn't become the majority, they most certainly ruled over the majority.

let's look at nigeria, it is the most populated muslim country in africa, yet where are the arabs or arab rulers there? there are none!! why? because the arabs went there as traders and gave dawah and the nigerians accepted. the same goes with indonesia, malaysia, pakistan etc. where are the arab majorities and leaders in these lands?

yet i can name an abundance of countries that forced christianity upon people. people don't know that the majority of black americans were muslim before the slave trade in america. many displaced arabs from spain ended up in my native land of puerto rico and many were forced to catholicism. yet there are many puerto ricans with islamic first and last names like omar, medina, yasmeen, ibrahim etc. it's also another reason why there are times when i meet other arabs that look like they're puerto rican and vice versa. our people were even forced to change the saying subhanallah to " gloria a dios " whenever we were asked how we were doing we had to mix subhanallah and alhamdulillah to spainish translation.


:wasalam:
 

Rashadi

Junior Member
:salam2:

i used to believe that islam was once spread by the sword, but when you really take the time to sort out the facts, you'll see that the whole violence thing wasn't the case. i will admt that that there are muslims out there dong things in the name of islam that are contrary to islamic values; but they are hardly the majority.

only 2 out of every 10 muslims in the world are arabs. taking into consideration that the arabs were the first to embrace islam, why aren't arabs the majority of muslims? generally, when people invade lands, the invaders end up being the majority. look at america for example; the country was all native american, yet through violence and disease the whites became the majority. and if the other invaders didn't become the majority, they most certainly ruled over the majority.

let's look at nigeria, it is the most populated muslim country in africa, yet where are the arabs or arab rulers there? there are none!! why? because the arabs went there as traders and gave dawah and the nigerians accepted. the same goes with indonesia, malaysia, pakistan etc. where are the arab majorities and leaders in these lands?

yet i can name an abundance of countries that forced christianity upon people. people don't know that the majority of black americans were muslim before the slave trade in america. many displaced arabs from spain ended up in my native land of puerto rico and many were forced to catholicism. yet there are many puerto ricans with islamic first and last names like omar, medina, yasmeen, ibrahim etc. it's also another reason why there are times when i meet other arabs that look like they're puerto rican and vice versa. our people were even forced to change the saying subhanallah to " gloria a dios " whenever we were asked how we were doing we had to mix subhanallah and alhamdulillah to spainish translation.


:wasalam:

Salaam Aleykom brother, you are right about everything you said. I had many Puerto Rican friends and I knew an Oman and another one named Ismail. Nicely said bro.
 

BigAk

Junior Member

I'm not sure why you're amazed, I don't think you should be.
You conveniently forget to mention that Islam was present and firmly established in Indonesia prior to Christianity which only came to Indonesia at the advent of European colonialist [Duthc].
Do I need to mention how the Europeans massacred thousands of people and converted thousands other to Christianity? If your claim is true then after the departure of the Dutch from Indonesia, native Christians (who were really converts from hindu, animalist, and Islam) should have been wiped out.

Your example of East Timur and other islands in Indonesia is very silly and false. People of East Timur may wanted their 'independence' to establish their own separate identity, but you know which two powers supported the brutal repression against East Timur?


England and USA gave their unconditional support to Indonesian military, ignoring call by 'human rights organizations'.

Indonesia didn't persecute the people of East Timor because they are Christian or out of religious belief, they simply wanted to stop any Island from seceding.
This is simply a political issue, I'm not sure why you believe it to be a religious one.

How do you think Christianity spread to the Philippines?
You Christians are just plain silly, you slam on other religions and people for committing 'massacres and aggression' when you conveniently ignore your own bloody history.How do you think Christianity spread to other places in Europe? People were passing out pamphlets? I won't even mention the Spanish Inquisition.

Sure every religion of their bad moments, but by far Islam has the cleanest track record and Christianity is not even close. I find it silly when Christians start accusing Islam of 'this and that'.

In Thailand Muslims are a small minority [mainly in the south], so I suggest you do more research on the situation in Thailand.




Once again Muslims are the religious minority in Philippines and Thailand. I suggest you do more research on the issue rather than making conclusion based on bias, ignorance, and assumptions.
As I said earlier, Majority of the Philippines were Muslims prior to the Spanish conquest.
Muslims there just didn't peacefully 'become converts to Christianity', I suggest you read about the brutal and repressive acts carried out by Spaniards, w which ultimately lead to Philippines having a majority Christian identity. If anything one can make a great argument about how Christianity was spread by the sword in Philippines.

This brutality against the Muslims is continuing presently by the Philippine government.







Errrr,
I'm not sure where you're getting this none sense about non Muslims begin forced to become Muslims. Are you making a reference to history or current events? I assure there is no such phenomena in the Muslim world. I've lived in a Muslim country with a significant religious minority (hindus) and I've never witnessed anything similar to what you claim.

There is no compulsion in Islam. What is so hard to understand?

You're suggesting Muslim countries become like Turkey? (who in reality aspires to be like Western countries with their secularism and moral filth). A true Muslim would never accept such silly proposals.

Forgive us for not being able to be like you Christians, who has thrown the Law of God behind their back. Forgive us for not picking and choosing what to follow in our religion, and forgive us for placing God before our whims and desire. Also forgive us for refusing and resisting to accept moral degradation of our societies.
We cannot be like you, rather we choose not to be like you.

Sorry Islam is not a 'personal' part time' thing that you do at your home.



Let me rephrase that for you, "the greatest argument in favor of the peacefulness of Islam" would be to actually have an Islamic State so you can examine how the Muslims act, behave, and deal with other nations and minority.
I fail to understand why you would think a secular state like Turkey would be an example of "peacefulness of Islam". Don't you understand, secularism and religion do not go together? Especially Islam.

TWO THUMBS UP........ AND A TOE... :D

BRAVO...

Jazak Allah khair my brother...

:salam2:

.
 
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