What's the truth?
- Thread starter vegangoth
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allah is with me
Rabana Wa laqal Hamd
no, allah has said kill those who come to kill you ..i mean wars.... leave those innocents, even if they are not muslims ....
vegangoth
Banned
So why do people sometimes get the idea that you do have to kill those that leave Islam?
allah is with me
Rabana Wa laqal Hamd
those people are insane..you know, many people say that 'girls going out side is haram, if they go, they should cover everything, even hands, and face, not even a nail should be seen)..just imagine... when people say this , you just say that, there is nothing like this in islam..and if they keep arguing, then its better if you keep quite ...
This should answer your question;
Freedom of conscience in Islam;
Part 1
http://www.idialogue.info/media-dialogue/72-freedom-of-conscience-in-islam-part-1
Part 2
http://www.idialogue.info/media-dialogue/73-freedom-of-conscience-in-islam-part-2
massi
Junior Member
Why is the apostate to be executed in Islam?
What stood out from your letter is that you are impressed with the religion of Islam. This is a good sign for us and for you. We are happy for our religion to reach people like you who are seeking for the truth. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that this religion would reach all places on this earth. It was narrated that Tameem al-Daari said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘This matter (i.e., Islam) will certainly reach everywhere that night and day reach, and Allaah will not leave any house or tent [i.e., all dwellings, in towns and in the desert], but Allaah will cause this religion to enter it, and some people will be honoured because of it [by converting] and others will be humiliated because of it [for refusing to embrace it], and they will be ruled by the Muslims, an honour which Allaah will bestow on Islam and a humiliation which He will inflict on kufr (disbelief).”
(Narrated by Ahmad, 16344; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 3).
1 – Riddah (apostasy) refers to when a Muslim becomes a disbeliever by saying a clear statement to that effect, or by uttering words which imply that (i.e., which imply kufr or disbelief), or he does something that implies that (i.e., an action which implies kufr or disbelief).
2 – What constitutes apostasy
The matters which constitute apostasy are divided into four categories:
(a) Apostasy in beliefs, such as associating others with Allaah, denying Him, or denying an attribute which is proven to be one of His attributes, or by affirming that Allaah has a son. Whoever believes that is an apostate and a disbeliever.
(b) Apostasy in words, such as insulting Allaah or the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
(c) Apostasy in actions, such as throwing the Qur’an into a filthy place, because doing that shows disrespect towards the words of Allaah, so it is a sign that one does not believe. Other such actions include prostrating to an idol or to the sun or moon.
(d) Apostasy by omission, such as not doing any of the rituals of Islam, or turning away from following it altogether.
3 – What is the ruling on the apostate?
If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.
The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676)
See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 22/180.
[al-Nisa’ 4:59]
Do you not see that this would make the one true religion, that everyone should follow, like a shop or store which a person can enter when he wants and leave when he wants, and it may encourage others to forsake the truth.
Moreover, this is not someone who has never known the truth and practiced it and worshipped in accordance with it; rather this is a person who has known the truth, and practiced the religion and done the rituals of worship, so the punishment is no greater than he deserves. Moreover, such strong rulings as this are only applied to such a person whose life is no longer considered to be useful, because he knew the truth and followed the religion, then he left it and forsook it. What soul can be more evil than the soul of such a person?
In conclusion, the answer is that Allaah is the One Who revealed this religion and enjoined it. He is the One Who ruled that the one who enters it and then leaves it is to be executed. This ruling does not come from the Muslims’ ideas or suggestions. As this is the case, then we must follow the ruling of Allaah so long as we are content to accept Him as our Lord and God.
May Allaah help us and you to do that which He loves and which pleases Him. We thank you once again.
Peace be upon those who follow true guidance.
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
As a non Muslim, I find myself Intrigued and attracted to your faith. However, I find it difficult to comprehend how a man can be sentenced to death for speaking( Salman Rushdie). I would have thought that we as humans do not have that right to make those decisions, only god can?
Praise be to Allaah. We thank you for your confidence in us and for sending this question to us, and we appreciate your being intrigued by our beliefs and your eagerness to find out the answer. We welcome you as a visitor and reader and learner.
What stood out from your letter is that you are impressed with the religion of Islam. This is a good sign for us and for you. We are happy for our religion to reach people like you who are seeking for the truth. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that this religion would reach all places on this earth. It was narrated that Tameem al-Daari said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘This matter (i.e., Islam) will certainly reach everywhere that night and day reach, and Allaah will not leave any house or tent [i.e., all dwellings, in towns and in the desert], but Allaah will cause this religion to enter it, and some people will be honoured because of it [by converting] and others will be humiliated because of it [for refusing to embrace it], and they will be ruled by the Muslims, an honour which Allaah will bestow on Islam and a humiliation which He will inflict on kufr (disbelief).”
(Narrated by Ahmad, 16344; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 3).
In your case, your admiration for Islam will motivate you to find out what this pure monotheistic religion teaches, and how it is in accordance with sound human nature and common sense. We advise you to avoid completely and preconceptions that may influence you and take your time in reading about the teachings of the Islamic religion. Perhaps you could read material on this site about Islam, such as questions no. 219, 21613, 20756, 10590.
With regard to your question, “However, I find it difficult to comprehend how a man can be sentenced to death for speaking. I would have thought that we as humans do not have that right to make those decisions, only god can” – what you say is correct, because no-one has the right to condemn another person to death without evidence from the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
The ruling of execution because of a word that somebody utters is what the Muslim scholars call al-riddah (apostasy). What is apostasy and what constitutes apostasy? What is the ruling on the apostate (al-murtadd)? 1 – Riddah (apostasy) refers to when a Muslim becomes a disbeliever by saying a clear statement to that effect, or by uttering words which imply that (i.e., which imply kufr or disbelief), or he does something that implies that (i.e., an action which implies kufr or disbelief).
2 – What constitutes apostasy
The matters which constitute apostasy are divided into four categories:
(a) Apostasy in beliefs, such as associating others with Allaah, denying Him, or denying an attribute which is proven to be one of His attributes, or by affirming that Allaah has a son. Whoever believes that is an apostate and a disbeliever.
(b) Apostasy in words, such as insulting Allaah or the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
(c) Apostasy in actions, such as throwing the Qur’an into a filthy place, because doing that shows disrespect towards the words of Allaah, so it is a sign that one does not believe. Other such actions include prostrating to an idol or to the sun or moon.
(d) Apostasy by omission, such as not doing any of the rituals of Islam, or turning away from following it altogether.
3 – What is the ruling on the apostate?
If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.
The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676)
See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 22/180.
Thus it will be clear to you that execution of the apostate is something that is commanded by Allaah, when he commanded us to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority”[al-Nisa’ 4:59]
And the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has commanded us to execute the apostate as in the hadeeth quoted above: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”
It may need some time for you to be convinced about this matter, and for you to think about it. Perhaps you think that if a person follows the truth and enters into it and embraces the one true religion which Allaah has enjoined, then we allow him to leave it quite easily whenever he wants and to utter the words of kufr (disbelief) that put him outside of Islam, so he can reject Allaah, His Messenger, His Books and His religion, and there is no punishment as deterrent, how will that affect him and others who enter the religion? Do you not see that this would make the one true religion, that everyone should follow, like a shop or store which a person can enter when he wants and leave when he wants, and it may encourage others to forsake the truth.
Moreover, this is not someone who has never known the truth and practiced it and worshipped in accordance with it; rather this is a person who has known the truth, and practiced the religion and done the rituals of worship, so the punishment is no greater than he deserves. Moreover, such strong rulings as this are only applied to such a person whose life is no longer considered to be useful, because he knew the truth and followed the religion, then he left it and forsook it. What soul can be more evil than the soul of such a person?
In conclusion, the answer is that Allaah is the One Who revealed this religion and enjoined it. He is the One Who ruled that the one who enters it and then leaves it is to be executed. This ruling does not come from the Muslims’ ideas or suggestions. As this is the case, then we must follow the ruling of Allaah so long as we are content to accept Him as our Lord and God.
May Allaah help us and you to do that which He loves and which pleases Him. We thank you once again.
Peace be upon those who follow true guidance.
Islam Q&A Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
vegangoth
Banned
Links don't work
Try again, I have changed the links. It should work now.
When speaking of apostasy in Islam..some scholars have divided it into two nice divisions..
1. Apostasy *from* Islam
2. Apostasy *unto* Islam
The first is when an individual leaves Islam due to lack of conviction..faith..etc. silently without stirring up trouble or making a fuss..that individual if known to have apostatized is supposed to be advised by others..those around him/her need to have their questions answered..their misconceptions clarified..and gaps of knowledge filled..so they return to Islam..and all this is supposed to be done with utmost patience and without any *force*
The latter is when someone leaves Islam..decides that they can make a group against Islam..goes around and preaches ill things against it..fabricate facts..harm other Muslims..insult their religion openly..preach their beliefs thus causing emotional/spiritual conflict for people..etc. these people are seen as a *threat* to the community's stability and if their efforts are big..then they might be seen as *treacherous* individuals aiming to disturb the peace of a nation and its society..in this case...their fate is determined according to the judgment of the ruler of their community (or country) and the judges who will study the case carefully and can determine a punishment varying from *a monetary fine*..to *imprisonment* for a fixed period of time..to *exile*..or *execution* if the matter is of absolutely *large* proportions..so the discretion of *the leader* and *the judges* of the land determine the manner according to the irrelevance or gravity of that person's actions in the society or the country
Killing people off the bat without fair judgment..investigation..and attempts to eliminate the factor of *trouble* is NOT a trait of Islam..even in the THE MOST HORRID OF CRIMES..judges investigate..ask witnesses..attempt reconciliations..and so on to come to a peaceful and just judgment even for *the guilty*
1. Apostasy *from* Islam
2. Apostasy *unto* Islam
The first is when an individual leaves Islam due to lack of conviction..faith..etc. silently without stirring up trouble or making a fuss..that individual if known to have apostatized is supposed to be advised by others..those around him/her need to have their questions answered..their misconceptions clarified..and gaps of knowledge filled..so they return to Islam..and all this is supposed to be done with utmost patience and without any *force*
The latter is when someone leaves Islam..decides that they can make a group against Islam..goes around and preaches ill things against it..fabricate facts..harm other Muslims..insult their religion openly..preach their beliefs thus causing emotional/spiritual conflict for people..etc. these people are seen as a *threat* to the community's stability and if their efforts are big..then they might be seen as *treacherous* individuals aiming to disturb the peace of a nation and its society..in this case...their fate is determined according to the judgment of the ruler of their community (or country) and the judges who will study the case carefully and can determine a punishment varying from *a monetary fine*..to *imprisonment* for a fixed period of time..to *exile*..or *execution* if the matter is of absolutely *large* proportions..so the discretion of *the leader* and *the judges* of the land determine the manner according to the irrelevance or gravity of that person's actions in the society or the country
Killing people off the bat without fair judgment..investigation..and attempts to eliminate the factor of *trouble* is NOT a trait of Islam..even in the THE MOST HORRID OF CRIMES..judges investigate..ask witnesses..attempt reconciliations..and so on to come to a peaceful and just judgment even for *the guilty*
:salam2:
Jazakallah Khair sister,
That's what the lecture states as well in nutshell, obviously with evidence from Quran and Sunnah.
TheHumbleWun
Banned
Salalam,
I'm in favor of the view to allow thorough investigation and allowing the person to repent - if they don't then they should be killed. Why? Because if you don't then it opens doors for others to follow. If you open the door to that then why not open the door to homosexuality? Alcohol? Gays? etc. I believe rejecting the Creator of mankind should have the severist punishment than homosexuality, alcohol, etc. It's not that we are weak in faith but it leads to further corruption in the society. You would then have to create laws for them, let them be your president etc. It would be no different than a non-Muslim country.
Just like how we don't allow non-Muslims to build their own worship temples, churches, synagogues (unless they were already established there) in a Muslim country, the same logic applies here - to not open doors to corruption, misguidance & disunity.
And Allah Knows Best
Source: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...nglish-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar
I'm in favor of the view to allow thorough investigation and allowing the person to repent - if they don't then they should be killed. Why? Because if you don't then it opens doors for others to follow. If you open the door to that then why not open the door to homosexuality? Alcohol? Gays? etc. I believe rejecting the Creator of mankind should have the severist punishment than homosexuality, alcohol, etc. It's not that we are weak in faith but it leads to further corruption in the society. You would then have to create laws for them, let them be your president etc. It would be no different than a non-Muslim country.
Just like how we don't allow non-Muslims to build their own worship temples, churches, synagogues (unless they were already established there) in a Muslim country, the same logic applies here - to not open doors to corruption, misguidance & disunity.
And Allah Knows Best
Source: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...nglish-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar
vegangoth
Banned
When I read posts like this it makes me sad. I know it's not just Islam that has a hardline of gays etc but DEATH you gotta be kidding me? As a gay person myself I find that idea abhorant and to be honest makes me think that Islam the Religon of peace yeah right!!!
But I also know that this (death to gays etc) is the hardline approach and I'm sure that more moderate Muslism do not agree with that idea so in that case I think Islam the religon of peace yes possibly.
massi
Junior Member
Islam has two source quran and sunna not the opinion of your Moderate muslim , If you like the immoral and dirty acts it's your problems !! but as Islam wants a clean society with nice people who can live peacefully so it has to be as The God order the All knowledge All wisdom
Like I said earlier..execution is the very very very very very last resort..and it comes as a judgment for an incident of large proportions!..with large consequences
Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam..that's a given..it's determined..known..and *clear*..anybody telling you *otherwise*..is either lying to your face..or they're ashamed of their religion..and each one of these is worst than the other
Homosexuality is like many temptations out there...if one succumbs to it..encourages it..and practices it..then they are accepting an evil and wanting for others...this matter is considered *harm* to the self and to others..and Islam FULLY rejects any harm inflicted towards the self or others..and where harm is great and distresses others..a means for punishment will be considered..if it towards the self..then measures will be taken to eliminate it through religious education..consultation..treatments..etc.
If one is tormented by this temptation..then they will know it is a test for them which Allah (swt) is closely watching the result for..and thus they should pray often..seek counsel of trusted persons..and look for means to avoid this evil...
Now from a logical stance..if someone *hates* being gay and knows it's wrong..and they don't practice it..and do not wish to do so..on the contrary..they want to *get rid of it*..HOW CAN YOU GO AND KILL THEM?..and how can Islam disregard such matter?..of course Islam is mindful of such instances and exceptions..and any effort towards correction and abiding to the commandments of Allah is taken to heart and all assistance is granted towards its accomplishment..
If someone wants to raise a rainbow flag..wear a *gay and proud* shirt..and plan a gay parade in the streets of Damascus or Cairo (for example)...and when *warned* once..twice..and thrice..NOT TO DO SO and REPENT..but yet they INSIST on carrying on with their actions..then they will receive a punishment equal to their actions!..and they cannot say *I didn't know any better!*
massi
Junior Member
a criminal killed innocent people , he has to be executed or it'll be a mess !!!
so Islam see the apostate as a treason for the religion and a declar of war against God , so how we deal with ? it's obvious , fighting them even it means death !!!
~Ali_
Fixing da foundation
Munawar
Striving for Paradise
:salam2:
Prophet Mohammad
said that a human life is more sacred and important than the Holy Kaaba (the cube like building in Makkah around which Muslims circle around and which is most sacred to Muslims).
So the punishment of death for an apostate doesn't match with the previous view - Or does it?
Most of the punishment is applied when a person openly declares in public. In the time of Prophet Mohammad some Islam haters played this game that they would accept Islam and then leave it and then say bad things about it to discourage others. So this punishment is meant to discourage them instead. Allowing a society to be destroyed is worse than sentencing someone to death.
But if some one leave Islam silently or is gay without announcing it in public, then we are told not to dig dirt and apply punishment on people.
Sister Laura ... Allah is our creator He knows what is good for us and so He has given us these instructions because He doesn't want any bad things, corruption and immorality in our society. With the threat of these punishments Allah protects the society. I would say that these punishments are a mercy of Allah (the Glorious and Most High) on us and on our future generations.
I know you think it is your right to do whatever you want. So... Can you say "HiJack" in a plane? LOL Can you say that you will "kill the American President" openly inside America? Aren't these your rights of freedom of expression too?
My point is that if these humans (Allah's creation) can make these rules then the creator of the Heavens and the earth - Allah (SWT) can make his rules too.
Allah has created this Universe as a testing place where many different species are being tested. Humans and the Jinns (btw Satan is a Jinn) are being tested on this planet. Allah has given jinns capability that they could affect human minds. So Satan and his offspring and his follower jinns continuously work on misguiding and misleading humans. They appear in their victim's vision, this can give their victims an excelrating feeling to deceive them, but remember Satan always give them false guidance and try to make them a pervert or a immoral person.
If you think about what he teaches, you will always find flaws in it. Only Allah can give you all the answers and guide you towards the truth with no flaws.
Prophet Mohammad
said that a human life is more sacred and important than the Holy Kaaba (the cube like building in Makkah around which Muslims circle around and which is most sacred to Muslims).So the punishment of death for an apostate doesn't match with the previous view - Or does it?
Most of the punishment is applied when a person openly declares in public. In the time of Prophet Mohammad
some Islam haters played this game that they would accept Islam and then leave it and then say bad things about it to discourage others. So this punishment is meant to discourage them instead. Allowing a society to be destroyed is worse than sentencing someone to death.But if some one leave Islam silently or is gay without announcing it in public, then we are told not to dig dirt and apply punishment on people.
Sister Laura ... Allah is our creator He knows what is good for us and so He has given us these instructions because He doesn't want any bad things, corruption and immorality in our society. With the threat of these punishments Allah protects the society. I would say that these punishments are a mercy of Allah (the Glorious and Most High) on us and on our future generations.
I know you think it is your right to do whatever you want. So... Can you say "HiJack" in a plane? LOL Can you say that you will "kill the American President" openly inside America? Aren't these your rights of freedom of expression too?
My point is that if these humans (Allah's creation) can make these rules then the creator of the Heavens and the earth - Allah (SWT) can make his rules too.
Allah has created this Universe as a testing place where many different species are being tested. Humans and the Jinns (btw Satan is a Jinn) are being tested on this planet. Allah has given jinns capability that they could affect human minds. So Satan and his offspring and his follower jinns continuously work on misguiding and misleading humans. They appear in their victim's vision, this can give their victims an excelrating feeling to deceive them, but remember Satan always give them false guidance and try to make them a pervert or a immoral person.
If you think about what he teaches, you will always find flaws in it. Only Allah can give you all the answers and guide you towards the truth with no flaws.
vegangoth
Banned
When it comes to the Muslim take issues I tend to think I'm not a Muslim so I'm wiling to say there has been though put into interpreting the texts even if they have been mistranlated when into egnglish etc and because of that I will exept the explination and move on. But I can't accept killing or punishing someone bacause their Gay, even if they have a chance to repent ect. I don't think it's a kindness to offer them repentance it's just a way of trying to control humanity. But I'm not a Muslim so I don't have to accept it.
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