Can the shari'a be legally enforced

[Fatih*]

Hi abubaseer

Yes, I already have plenty of books on Islam at home and I am reading them, and I am also having a look at all this material you are talking about, just give me time to digest all of it.

Regarding the application of Shari'a Law, I forgot to ask one question at the beginning of the thread:
"are you a kaafir if you disagree with the death penalty?"

I am a lifelong opponent of the death penalty, and so is my wife.
We have so many arguments against the deth penalty that we could write a book !!!
And of course limb amputation is simply out of the question, because we believe in rehabilitation rather than punishment.

That is why I asked the original question in the first place "shouldn't the Shari'a be limited to the civil law and left totally out of the criminal law altogether?"

Are yo with me now?

Fausto

Death is not the ONLY punishment for murder.

The family gets to decide what they want the punishment for the murderer to be. There are 3 options:

1. They can forgive him and nothing will happen.
2. They can request blood money or jizyah for the murder and he won't get killed.
3. They can choose to give him a death penalty.

 

[arzafar]

a-Ha, this one of the many things that the report says:

"A likely reason for the increase in recidivism, Professor Petersilia said, is
that state governments, to save money and to be seen as tough on crime, cut back on rehabilitation programs, like drug treatment, vocational education and classes to prepare prisoners for life at home."

Mmmm, what you are saying is by no means new or confined to Islam or Shari'a Law; many people in the US religious rights (the highly despicable Christian Fundamentalists) have repeatedly said the same things as you.

Fausto

PS: ever heard the case of Sacco and Vanzetti, the 2 Italians executed in the US in 1927 at the end of an awful trial and then found innocent 50 years later? What does the Shari'a Law say in a case like this? HOw does the Shari'a address miscarriages of justice?

you need 4 adult, sane, muslim male eye witnesses (or 2 females witness = 1 male witness) to carry out the hadd (punishment for transgressing limits eg murder)

1. for false eye witnesses against innocent women
"Those who defame chaste women and do not bring four witnesses should be punished with eighty lashes, and their testimony should not be accepted afterwards, for they are profligates" (Qur’an at 24:4)

2. case in point
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/23385

3. also read the following thread
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27668&highlight=shariah+punishments

more stuff can be provided inshallah by other bros and sisters.

and yes im a muslim fundamentalist so id rather be cruel to the guilty than to the innocent. Since you're a social worker i recommend you research Islamic monetary system and economics as well. I'm sure you will find them to be better than any "isms" that have enslaved billions of people around the planet.

:salam2:

 

[Rashadi]

hello again, sharia may sound harsh to people but one has to understand it properly and put it in proper context. Sharia is justice and also protection. for example, cutting of the hand may sound harsh but there is more to it than that. First, what exactly is a thief? who and when can such punishment be carried out/ and more. Muslims are required to pay zakat everyear unless one does not have the means. Every Muslim, male and female is required to pay 2.5% of his or her wealth toward the poor. Additionally, we are encouraged to practice regular charity as well. In a truly Islamic state, there won't be any people who are at the point of starvation. The Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said that everyone is entitled to three things and that is food, clothing and a place to live. Now, who would want to steal after that? why not make a honest living and work if one is able? furthermore, there is zakat and charity to where even the poor are taken care of. only a thieve would still do such humiliating crime.

I have worked in retail folr 3 years and remember seeing people get caught shop lifting and would get arrested yet that would not be the last time. They would continue doing it and they would even do it despite having the money to purchase whatever. It is obvious that jail, probation, community service, and other programs and punishments have not worked but now imagine if there was a law which called for cutting off the hand of a thieve. Would anyone still want to steal? I don't think so because a person would be reminded of the humiliating punishment.

As for execution, this too has to be properly understood. The punishment for murder is not necessarily death but there are options. One, a person can be forgiven if the family of the victim are willing. Two, Blood money can be paid to the family of the victim if an agreement has been reached. The other option is execution but the Quran does not call for automatic execution but rather lays down options and even encourages forgiveness and patience.

Sharia consists of wisdom because it is not man made but rather from God. It does not contradict like man made laws nor is it oppressive. I was watching a tv show on prisons and it said that 55% of all males that are released return within 3 years and 35% of the females do as well. It is obvious that prison has not worked, but if there was proper justice and people knew the punishments for the crimes, there would be a second thought before committing crimes. The rape rate is outrages in the U.S and other nations but that wouldn't be the case if there were strict laws.

Sharia is not evil and don't be intimidated by what you hear or see. It is best to study and understand. There is a context to everything and sharia has to be understood properly. When you hear of a woman in Saudi Arabia being punished yet she was the victim, there are two answers to this story. A, it is a lie or twisted around. B, this is corruption on behalf of the Saudi officials and has nothing to do with Sharia. Dictatorships wouldn't survive with sharia nor would other evil things. Sharia is not against education, prosperity, justice, free speech, reason, logic, opinions, etc.

There are people who use Islam and sharia as a cover up or just as a label but that don't mean it is true. Like the stories we heard about the the Taliban and whatever they were doing. If true, they are not practicing Islamic sharia but rather their own agendas while hiding it behind Islam. Sometimes people even mix culture and tribal traditions with Islam and this leads to confusion. Islam is not an ethnic religion but rather a complete way of life and a total system which makes it different from religions. Everyone is Muslim by birth and nature because Islam is submission to the will of God and we are all in submission to Him. The entire universe is Muslim by nature and I mean every rock, mineral, stars, plants, planets, sun, moon, animals, etc. The difference for humans is that we have a choice to become submitted to the will of God by choice and voluntarily or reject.

I hope this helped clarify things regarding sharia.

 

[Rashadi]

a-Ha, this one of the many things that the report says:






PS: ever heard the case of Sacco and Vanzetti, the 2 Italians executed in the US in 1927 at the end of an awful trial and then found innocent 50 years later? What does the Shari'a Law say in a case like this? HOw does the Shari'a address miscarriages of justice?

There are many such cases in the U.S where people were sentenced to prison or even and later found innocent and that is tragic and unjust. The reason behind such cases are unjust trials, lack of evidence, etc. In Sharia there would be no such case because there has to be 100% proof and no doubt. There is a punishment for false testimony, and if one lies in court in order to testify against another, that person would face a punishment of 80 lashes. But American courts are unjust in my opinion because the prosecutor is worried about winning cases in order to build a good resume and then there is a jury. In a truly Islamic court it would be different, and as I mentioned previously, a person does not face the state in sharia law but it is rather the suspect vs the victims family. If the family forgive, charges will be dropped but that is not the case with U.S courts.

Even if the family of the victim forgive the crime, the person still faces the state and this is not fair. Sharia touches on all walks of life and there are solutions for everything. Islam also is unique because it offers tools to prevent a person from committing crimes from the start as opposed to man made laws where a person is even encouraged to do crimes and then face punishment. Islam goes beyond punishment but makes it almost impossible to do the crime to begin with. If anyone goes as far as rape, murder, theft, etc, such person has gone above all limits and did it despite the punishments and law. Furthermore, you have to keep in mind that Islam does not force itself on people. Although sharia is best for all humans, it only applies to Muslims while non-Muslim citizens of an Islamic state would be almost autonomous.


A good example is how during the Islamic golden age there were people of many faiths living in the empire. It stretched over 3 continents and there was peace, justice, security, and prosperity. In addition, when the Muslims ruled Jerusalem, the non-Muslims there were not oppressed nor did they live under sharia. Even liquor which is prohibited in Islam was not prohibited to the non-Muslims but they were not allowed to be drinking in public. We also mentioned how spying on people's privacy is not allowed in Islam and what people do in secret or undercoverly is between them and God.

 

[arzafar]

western judicial system favors the rich. no doubt about it.
if you've got the bucks for the attorneys, you can twist, turn and find loop holes in your favor. Good lawyers give you a distinct advantage even if you are the criminal. the average joe, who cant afford the big fees is hopeless in such cases.

and i dont even want to talk about the interest based economy. here are a few quotes

1. “It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.” - Henry Ford

2. "Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws!“ - Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812)

"Let me control a peoples currency and I care not who makes their laws."
- Meyer Nathaniel Rothschild in a speech to a gathering of world bankers February 12, 1912, a requote of his ancestor Mayer Amschel.


3. “People who will not turn a shovel of dirt on the project, nor contribute a pound of material, will collect more money, from the United States, than will the people, who supply all the material and do all the work. This is the terrible thing about interest… But here is the point: If the nation can issue a dollar bond, it can also issue a dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good, makes the bill good, also. The difference, between the bond and the bill, is that the bond lets the money-broker collect twice the amount of the bond, and an additional 20%. Whereas the currency, the honest sort, provided by the Constitution, pays nobody, but those, who contribute in some useful way. It is absurd, to say that our country can issue bonds, and cannot issue currency. Both are promises to pay, but one fattens the usurer and the other helps the people.” – Thomas Edison

Number 2. is the reason why i believe that unless the banking cartel is overthrown, true islamic shariah cannot be established. through currency bankers control everything. No wonder islam declares a 'war on usury'.

“O you who believe! Fear Allaah and give up what remains (due to you) from Ribaa (from now onward) if you are (really) believers. And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from Allaah and His Messenger …”
[al-Baqarah 2:278-279]

 

[aisyah]

who are now striving for sharia?

Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh

See the arrow of the enemies where they are flowing to, if you know the answer then follow the jamaah.

May Allah grants you victory in this dunya and akhirat.

And salam to those who follow the right path.

 

[faustobiason]

Hi Fausto again

Allhamdullilah that you understood what we have said and if you study well Shariah law you will understand the wisdom of all its norms.

I apologise but if I can ask you why do you ask is there any social worker here. How would you conect that with your question regarding Shariah law???

Thank you

Yes, because of the training they give you, basically they teach you to see almost everyone who has been arrested for something as a "victim of society", basically they turn you into what the far right calls contemptuously "bleeding heart liberals" or "loony lefties".
Fausto

 

[faustobiason]

Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh

See the arrow of the enemies where they are flowing to, if you know the answer then follow the jamaah.

May Allah grants you victory in this dunya and akhirat.

And salam to those who follow the right path.

And your point is?

Fausto

 

[faustobiason]

western judicial system favors the rich. no doubt about it.
if you've got the bucks for the attorneys, you can twist, turn and find loop holes in your favor. Good lawyers give you a distinct advantage even if you are the criminal. the average joe, who cant afford the big fees is hopeless in such cases.

and i dont even want to talk about the interest based economy. here are a few quotes

1. “It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.” - Henry Ford

2. "Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws!“ - Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812)

"Let me control a peoples currency and I care not who makes their laws."
- Meyer Nathaniel Rothschild in a speech to a gathering of world bankers February 12, 1912, a requote of his ancestor Mayer Amschel.


3. “People who will not turn a shovel of dirt on the project, nor contribute a pound of material, will collect more money, from the United States, than will the people, who supply all the material and do all the work. This is the terrible thing about interest… But here is the point: If the nation can issue a dollar bond, it can also issue a dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good, makes the bill good, also. The difference, between the bond and the bill, is that the bond lets the money-broker collect twice the amount of the bond, and an additional 20%. Whereas the currency, the honest sort, provided by the Constitution, pays nobody, but those, who contribute in some useful way. It is absurd, to say that our country can issue bonds, and cannot issue currency. Both are promises to pay, but one fattens the usurer and the other helps the people.” – Thomas Edison

Number 2. is the reason why i believe that unless the banking cartel is overthrown, true islamic shariah cannot be established. through currency bankers control everything. No wonder islam declares a 'war on usury'.

“O you who believe! Fear Allaah and give up what remains (due to you) from Ribaa (from now onward) if you are (really) believers. And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from Allaah and His Messenger …”
[al-Baqarah 2:278-279]

Actually I do like Islamic financial products, what is called Halal Finance, it does make sense.
It is the death penalty I have always had issues with, since 1978, when I first saw the film below:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067698/

Yes, you can argue that the Shari'a Law is from God, and yes, some people might fatly deserve the death penalty, but deep down my heart this form of punishment is not something I am at ease with.

Fausto

 

[faustobiason]

hello again, sharia may sound harsh to people but one has to understand it properly and put it in proper context. Sharia is justice and also protection. for example, cutting of the hand may sound harsh but there is more to it than that. First, what exactly is a thief? who and when can such punishment be carried out/ and more. Muslims are required to pay zakat everyear unless one does not have the means. Every Muslim, male and female is required to pay 2.5% of his or her wealth toward the poor. Additionally, we are encouraged to practice regular charity as well. In a truly Islamic state, there won't be any people who are at the point of starvation. The Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said that everyone is entitled to three things and that is food, clothing and a place to live. Now, who would want to steal after that? why not make a honest living and work if one is able? furthermore, there is zakat and charity to where even the poor are taken care of. only a thieve would still do such humiliating crime.

I have worked in retail folr 3 years and remember seeing people get caught shop lifting and would get arrested yet that would not be the last time. They would continue doing it and they would even do it despite having the money to purchase whatever. It is obvious that jail, probation, community service, and other programs and punishments have not worked but now imagine if there was a law which called for cutting off the hand of a thieve. Would anyone still want to steal? I don't think so because a person would be reminded of the humiliating punishment.

As for execution, this too has to be properly understood. The punishment for murder is not necessarily death but there are options. One, a person can be forgiven if the family of the victim are willing. Two, Blood money can be paid to the family of the victim if an agreement has been reached. The other option is execution but the Quran does not call for automatic execution but rather lays down options and even encourages forgiveness and patience.

Sharia consists of wisdom because it is not man made but rather from God. It does not contradict like man made laws nor is it oppressive. I was watching a tv show on prisons and it said that 55% of all males that are released return within 3 years and 35% of the females do as well. It is obvious that prison has not worked, but if there was proper justice and people knew the punishments for the crimes, there would be a second thought before committing crimes. The rape rate is outrages in the U.S and other nations but that wouldn't be the case if there were strict laws.

Sharia is not evil and don't be intimidated by what you hear or see. It is best to study and understand. There is a context to everything and sharia has to be understood properly. When you hear of a woman in Saudi Arabia being punished yet she was the victim, there are two answers to this story. A, it is a lie or twisted around. B, this is corruption on behalf of the Saudi officials and has nothing to do with Sharia. Dictatorships wouldn't survive with sharia nor would other evil things. Sharia is not against education, prosperity, justice, free speech, reason, logic, opinions, etc.

There are people who use Islam and sharia as a cover up or just as a label but that don't mean it is true. Like the stories we heard about the the Taliban and whatever they were doing. If true, they are not practicing Islamic sharia but rather their own agendas while hiding it behind Islam. Sometimes people even mix culture and tribal traditions with Islam and this leads to confusion. Islam is not an ethnic religion but rather a complete way of life and a total system which makes it different from religions. Everyone is Muslim by birth and nature because Islam is submission to the will of God and we are all in submission to Him. The entire universe is Muslim by nature and I mean every rock, mineral, stars, plants, planets, sun, moon, animals, etc. The difference for humans is that we have a choice to become submitted to the will of God by choice and voluntarily or reject.

I hope this helped clarify things regarding sharia.

Yes, i can see where you are coming from

 

[Asja]

Yes, because of the training they give you, basically they teach you to see almost everyone who has been arrested for something as a "victim of society", basically they turn you into what the far right calls contemptuously "bleeding heart liberals" or "loony lefties".
Fausto

Hi again Fausto

Thank you for your answer.

From this what you have said I understood that you said there is no responsability of individaul, only of the group or society. But Alhamdulillah this is not correct, because the society is made of indivudals,and each indivudaul is reposable by himselfe for his actions.So why dont they arrest whole society, why is always individual? Good society is made of good individuals,and bad society is made of bad individuals. Everything needs to begin from one individual.

And it should not be forgetten that Shariah law,and Islaam by itselfe are first of all preventing wrong deeds and crimes,and than punishing it. Subhnaallah, Allahs Law is just,and everyone will be reworded or punihsed like he deserved,and by his own deeds. To noone will be done injustice.

May Allah guide us all

 

[arzafar]

Actually I do like Islamic financial products, what is called Halal Finance, it does make sense.
It is the death penalty I have always had issues with, since 1978, when I first saw the film below:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067698/

Yes, you can argue that the Shari'a Law is from God, and yes, some people might fatly deserve the death penalty, but deep down my heart this form of punishment is not something I am at ease with.

Fausto

unfair trial doesn't make the death penalty unfair.
But, i know where you're coming from. there was a time when i thought shariah was cruel, amputating hands, public lashes and the whole concept of corporal/capital punishments seemed very cruel. I thought that people needed a chance, they would come good and we could change them blah , blah. Now i realize that i was just a naive fool. Man in general is greedy, selfish, arrogant and resistant to change!

and regarding the bold part
say if somebody murders your loved ones :astag:, you'll be fine seeing him live happily ever after, albeit, behind bars?

if somebody is that forgiving (which is good btw ) then shariah also has two other options
1) ask for blood money
2) forgive the murder altogether

 

[kayleigh]

Saudi arabia is a horrible example of... well, just about everything.

It's a good point you've raised, but honestly I don't think it is worth worrying about any time soon. No Muslim majority country enforces sharia entirely or anything close to it. I don't think any Muslim majority country will come close to enforcing it in the near future either.

as for what the archbishop said, I don't believe he means the entirety of sharia as that is definitely unacceptable and incompatible with many laws in the UK, US, etc. I believe he was referring to things like marriage laws, inheritance, divorce laws, etc. and all parties concerned would have to agree to follow sharia law in that case. Like if a couple wants a divorce and the husband doesn't want to go through sharia law, the wife cannot force him to or vice versa. Punishments for things like rape, murder, etc., wouldn't be followed.

 

[kayleigh]

Actually I do like Islamic financial products, what is called Halal Finance, it does make sense.
It is the death penalty I have always had issues with, since 1978, when I first saw the film below:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067698/

Yes, you can argue that the Shari'a Law is from God, and yes, some people might fatly deserve the death penalty, but deep down my heart this form of punishment is not something I am at ease with.

Fausto

I actually with you.

In theory, I am fine with the idea of a murderer getting the death penalty and I do believe it is just.

However, in reality, many other factors determine if a court will find someone guilty - usually because of ones race or class they are more likely to be found guilty even if they're not. The death penalty isn't applied evenly either as it stands (in the West, at least) - a white man may get life in prison while a black man would get death row. In a Islamic country, I don't have any confidence that this would be any different. Humans are not perfect, and even Muslims are subject to racism, classism, etc.

This is why the actual application of it doesn't make me comfortable in most cases.

I don't have a problem with Sharia law at all, I just have a problem with how people will most likely enforce it and practice it and probably eventually corrupt it. Even if the law is uncorrupted and from God, Muslims are definitely corrupted and make lots of mistakes. Just because it is from God doesn't mean that in application people won't corrupt it or make unfair or unjust rulings, just like how it happens in every other legal code, everywhere else in the world.

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,


We Muslims are in a sad state of affairs. I do not understand how we can call ourselves Muslims and not agree that there is only one law. By definition one can not be Muslim if we reject any part of Allah's law. That which He tells us is correct is correct. We can not take a part of Islam and reject another. The rest is foolish banter. We are striving for the meeting with Allah subhana talla. We better be careful. The issue is not if we are at ease with His Law. It is are we willing to strive for His Promise. If we are it is a no brainer. There is no need to divide the world into East or West. Folks..the Universe, Hell and Heaven all belong to Him. He is telling us how we can live eternally in His Presence. Now, I don't know about you but me..I will follow His Command.

 

[faustobiason]

Assalaam walaikum,


We Muslims are in a sad state of affairs. I do not understand how we can call ourselves Muslims and not agree that there is only one law. By definition one can not be Muslim if we reject any part of Allah's law. That which He tells us is correct is correct. We can not take a part of Islam and reject another. The rest is foolish banter. We are striving for the meeting with Allah subhana talla. We better be careful. The issue is not if we are at ease with His Law. It is are we willing to strive for His Promise. If we are it is a no brainer. There is no need to divide the world into East or West. Folks..the Universe, Hell and Heaven all belong to Him. He is telling us how we can live eternally in His Presence. Now, I don't know about you but me..I will follow His Command.

Don't be so negative.

Now it is clear that the Shari'a Law does NOT say that the death penalty is compulsory, but it is an option, so we should stop with these scare stories about Islam.
Fausto

 

[jundulah]

Don't be so negative.

Now it is clear that the Shari'a Law does NOT say that the death penalty is compulsory, but it is an option, so we should stop with these scare stories about Islam.
Fausto

hi again fausto, the sharia is clear about the death penalty and all the other laws of equality, and it is not scary it is only scary to those who want to commit injustices and then get away with it. ass for the option you are talking about is not a lenient option the sharia gives that to the family of the victim or the deceaced and then they will have the choice of either executing the murdrer or requestin "diya" or blood money,the latter option is normally given to the person who kills by accident but it's entirely up to the family of the deceaced. Sharia is in complete harmony with all aspects of human life, it protects the life,honour,wealth of the individual and it scares those who want to make meal out of your life.honour and your wealth.as ALLAAHswt, says in the Qur'an:in surah2 verse 179 "In the law of equality there is(saving of)life to you O ye men of understanding;that ye may restrain your selves"

 

[jundulah]

I actually with you.

In theory, I am fine with the idea of a murderer getting the death penalty and I do believe it is just.

However, in reality, many other factors determine if a court will find someone guilty - usually because of ones race or class they are more likely to be found guilty even if they're not. The death penalty isn't applied evenly either as it stands (in the West, at least) - a white man may get life in prison while a black man would get death row. In a Islamic country, I don't have any confidence that this would be any different. Humans are not perfect, and even Muslims are subject to racism, classism, etc.

This is why the actual application of it doesn't make me comfortable in most cases.

I don't have a problem with Sharia law at all, I just have a problem with how people will most likely enforce it and practice it and probably eventually corrupt it. Even if the law is uncorrupted and from God, Muslims are definitely corrupted and make lots of mistakes. Just because it is from God doesn't mean that in application people won't corrupt it or make unfair or unjust rulings, just like how it happens in every other legal code, everywhere else in the world.

hi kayleigh, I sense from your post that you feel uncomfortible with certain aspcts of the sharia,however i have to remind you that it came from your creator if you are a muslim you should wholeheartedly submit to ALLAAH and his laws if you are not a muslim then you are not compelled to.
Ass for those who do not carry out the sharia to the letter, their affair is with ALLAHswt, who will hold them to account,having said that i am not aware of any muslim country that applies the sharia in its entirety they all pic and choose, we pray to ALLAAHswt to grant us sencere leaders who once again will govern by the sharia, inshA;ALAAH.... aamiin.

 

[kayleigh]

hi kayleigh, I sense from your post that you feel uncomfortible with certain aspcts of the sharia,however i have to remind you that it came from your creator if you are a muslim you should wholeheartedly submit to ALLAAH and his laws if you are not a muslim then you are not compelled to.
Ass for those who do not carry out the sharia to the letter, their affair is with ALLAHswt, who will hold them to account,having said that i am not aware of any muslim country that applies the sharia in its entirety they all pic and choose, we pray to ALLAAHswt to grant us sencere leaders who once again will govern by the sharia, inshA;ALAAH.... aamiin.

as I clearly stated in my original post, I am uncomfortable with how the law is bound to be applied, not with the actual idea of the law.

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,


I am anything but negative. I am comfortable with my faith. I live it. The code of ethics is outlined to the minute. We are told point blank how to live. And we are told that being Believers makes us more accountable for we then become the magistrates of His Law..and His Law never changes. It is the same in all faiths. Thou Shalt Have No God besides Me.

Sister Kayleigh, what we feel individually about the law is irrelevant. It is the Law of Allah subhana talla. It is not an idea of a law. It is the absolute will of Allah. It is that simple.

We are seeing the consequences of not living by it. There is confusion. We have nationalism overridden by erroneous ever changing laws. What applied today will not be the same tomorrow. There is no backbone.