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Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

It must be the heat. We need some new posts. I am just hot and tired. Alhumdullila, the boys are back and I am very happy.

I did fall in love with city life. I came home and in three weeks I have grass that is three feet tall. I think I want to live in an apartment again. No yardwork. I loved the smells of food..spices from everywhere.

It was so nice to see diversity.

The beach is calling me and I need your dua for my move, Insha'Allah. A city by the beach with Muslims and universities...that is good.
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
How's this for entertainment? China is planning new Solar-Electric super buses that can drive over cars:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/669166

CHINA-BUS.jpg


Is that brilliant or what? A moving tunnel! Why didn't I think of that :)

Oh my God, I love Asians. That's brilliant.
 

BrotherInIslam7

La Illaha Illa Allah
Staff member
:salam2:

Honestly, I would creep out if a train was passing over head and I was riding in a car below.

Interesting idea, but would find it hard to get acceptance.
 

arzafar

Junior Member
Salaam,

Very interesting! But I think that won't be the trend in the future...

that's a big thing to say. actually I agree and i have my reasons. in fact i dont see industrial civilization as a whole continuing beyond 2100 at most. id say we'll be back to farming within the next 5 decades.

so may i know why YOU think solar powered trains shall remain a distant dream.
 

rayray

Junior Member
that's a big thing to say. actually I agree and i have my reasons. in fact i dont see industrial civilization as a whole continuing beyond 2100 at most. id say we'll be back to farming within the next 5 decades.

so may i know why YOU think solar powered trains shall remain a distant dream.


Just intuition. Recalling things I learned on how solar panels are made and how it works... also its life span.. I think that the resource cost and energy in making solar powered transportation is > than it's potential benefits. I wouldn't invest on solar panels.

There are also obviously the inherent limitations of solar power, which would be counter- productive to the purpose for making solar powered transportation in the first place....

Adam Smith. The "invisible hand" would divert resources and energy to other things that would cut the real cause of this transportation- population problem. Maybe like decentralization of things? Decentralization of energy?

Computers and the Internet. Amazing inventions. They practically teleport people already. Before, it would take how many days for a person in point A to communicate/ exchange info or see a person in point B? With the internet, it's practically in real time.

So why would people travel from place to place when they could work, shop and etc from their own home? It's a reality now that people shop and work from the comforts of their own home.

I guess I foresee decentralization. Trade, trucks, shipments, ordered goods.
 

arzafar

Junior Member
Just intuition. Recalling things I learned on how solar panels are made and how it works... also its life span.. I think that the resource cost and energy in making solar powered transportation is > than it's potential benefits. I wouldn't invest on solar panels.

There are also obviously the inherent limitations of solar power, which would be counter- productive to the purpose for making solar powered transportation in the first place....

Adam Smith. The "invisible hand" would divert resources and energy to other things that would cut the real cause of this transportation- population problem. Maybe like decentralization of things? Decentralization of energy?

Computers and the Internet. Amazing inventions. They practically teleport people already. Before, it would take how many days for a person in point A to communicate/ exchange info or see a person in point B? With the internet, it's practically in real time.

So why would people travel from place to place when they could work, shop and etc from their own home? It's a reality now that people shop and work from the comforts of their own home.

I guess I foresee decentralization. Trade, trucks, shipments, ordered goods.

oh those are some great points. but i think those things will hold true in the short term only. In the long term it will all break down.

However, my reasoning is based on net energy or more specifically net energy per capita. We live in a finite planet with finite resources, population is growing so less resources/energy per person and this value is decreasing exponentially. We will reach the limits to growth sooner or later.

"Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." (Kenneth Boulding)

the image below explains it perfectly. the X axis has estimated numbers. But overall if somebody looks back say in 2500-3000 AD the following figure will hold true.

LTGScenario1.jpg


we keep hearing people talking about "economic growth", "gdp growth", "industrial growth" and how it's important for us. Basically they refer to the region 1900 - 2030 in the chart. The problem with growth is that the planet is finite. There will be a peak and a period of downward decline will follow. This is a mathematical certainty because there is a limit to growth in the finite planet. unfortunately, everything around us is based on growth (since the interest based economic system is such).

Now a lot of people upon hearing such gloomy scenario dismiss it completely without providing any reasons. Unfortunately, the scenario presented here is a certainty. It will happen, we just dont know when.

Moreover, there have been many powerful, prosperous civilizations in history; all peaked, all declined and their remains can be found in museums today. Im sure that egyptians, persians, romans, Chinese all thought they could keep it going but they all failed. I dont see any reason why industrial civilization will be any different.

For most civilizations in history, food was the limiting agent.
For our industrial civilization, oil is the limiting agent.
For any civilization, net energy is the limiting agent.
Note: food = energy for the body

off course humanity will survive but we will be dependent directly upon nature (as we have always been) instead of deluding ourselves with all this infrastructure around us that gives us a false sense of comfort and assurance that we are in control of our lives.

anybody interested in the above ideas should begin by watching the following video

[yt]F-QA2rkpBSY[/yt]
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

This is too Orwellian for my tastes. I am having nightmares about the machine getting clogged and I am trapped between the rails with a bus full of conservative right wing Muslim hating Zionist licking middle aged menapausal women.

I always perfer the slow road to China. You can take in the sights and contemplate.
 

arzafar

Junior Member
Assalaam walaikum,

This is too Orwellian for my tastes. I am having nightmares about the machine getting clogged and I am trapped between the rails with a bus full of conservative right wing Muslim hating Zionist licking middle aged menapausal women.

I always perfer the slow road to China. You can take in the sights and contemplate.

no it want happen like that. when the collapse sets in, horse carts will becomes more economical than a train. we will all scale down. we'll have to in order to survive because we have been living beyond our means. the energy per capita that we consume in our lifetime is more than that consumed by the wealthiest kings and emperor in the days gone by. just look at the electric units consumed at your home. how many slaves would be required to provide that sort of power?

just look at that solar powered train and imagine the energy that is wasted in manufacturing such a train. at the moment we an afford it because we have cheap energy in oil and gas. one day we will run out of oil, gas, coal, uranium and other ores then what? we have already burnt most of our forests away.

but there is no substitute for oil. how do we feed 6-7 billion people without fertilizers, tractors, pesticides? we 'eat' oil. just take a look around. Plastics, pharmaceuticals, cleaners, (virtually all chemicals), synthetics, clothes, cement, cars, road etc. etc. all use oil and other rare minerals. these resources are non renewable.

However, this is not a dooms day picture as many believe. We just have to go back to nature, our fitra. industrial civilization is only 100-200 yrs old and historically it is as abnormal/unprecedented as it gets. back then the world population was around 1 billion so yes around 5 billion people will have to die after the industrial and commercial collapse. the current population levels, at the lifestyle we seek (big house, car, swimming pool, health and sanitation etc), are simply un-sustainable.

what's really unfortunate is that most of us have forgotten that the most energy efficient solar vehicle has been available for ages. It's the donkey!
 

rayray

Junior Member
Assalam walaikum,

Very grim yet valid and logical scenario you are painting arzafar... what do you expect people to do?
 

arzafar

Junior Member
Assalam walaikum,

Very grim yet valid and logical scenario you are painting arzafar... what do you expect people to do?

in no particular order
1. resource wars,
2. financial collapse
3. collapse of world trade as oil exporting countries realize that end is nigh.
4. cultural collapse. few sports, movies, entertainment as people would be worried about paying bills
5. Commercial collapse - cost of production permanently higher than revenues
6. industrial collapse - raw materials becoming scarce
7. massive downscaling, resourcefulness, unemployment
8. large families, lower life expectancies, increased poverty
9. large scale death (in billions) through wars, famine and disease
10. remaining people will go back to farming and cottage industry

did you see the video?
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Brother when I read the Quran..the woes and negativity go away...and I try to make small changes by doing deeds of good...

We have a responsibility..we need to remain strong and positive. We can make changes. Everything comes from Allah subhana talla. We have to appreciate what we are blessed with.

Tell us what we can do in simple ways to conserve and not waste. I would be willing to do it. Nice and simple way to enter into Ramadan.
 

rayray

Junior Member
Assalam Walaikum,

No I did not. I was thinking technology, increasing efficiency and the human mind.

It's true that the world has finite resources, it's true that the population is growing so their is less resources/energy per person, and it's true that exponential growth cannot go on forever in a finite world. But did not industrial civilization also give way to technology? Which made processes more efficient? As you said:

"the energy per capita that we consume in our lifetime is more than that consumed by the wealthiest kings and emperor in the days gone by. just look at the electric units consumed at your home. how many slaves would be required to provide that sort of power?"

I doubt we will go back to horse draw carriages.

"There have been many powerful, prosperous civilizations in history; all peaked, all declined and their remains can be found in museums today"

I think this is due more to wrong priorities, greediness and etc.

For most civilizations in history, food was the limiting agent.
For our industrial civilization, oil is the limiting agent.
For any civilization, net energy is the limiting agent.
Note: food = energy for the body


I think their is no limiting agent when it comes to the human mind and spirit. We know this, why not change it?
 
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