The dogmatic mind

justoneofmillion

Junior Member
An article by Dr Tariq Ramadan that i found to be very inspiring,

There are various ways of appropriating the universal, claiming to have a monopoly on it and then establishing a hierarchy of values, civilizations and cultures. This sometimes involves forcing it on others without further ado … ‘for their own good’, of course. In the realm of the universal, the most natural, if not the least dangerous, attitude consists in reducing the range of possibilities to one’s own point of view: my truth is everyone’s Truth, and the truth for everyone, and the values that derive from it are, a fortiori universal. In that case, order is imposed from on high and Man adopts, for himself and with confidence, the viewpoint of God or the absolute. All religions or spiritualities run the risk of being distorted in this way: because we look down the mountain from the summit, we deny the very existence of the many slopes that constitute its very essence and give it its human perspective. If we attempt to use the common faculty of reason to elaborate a universal, the phenomenon is markedly different, but the outcome is the same. As we make our way to the common good of Men, we accept, by definition, the existence of a multiplicity of viewpoints, the need for postulates, doubts and even the paradoxical contradictions of analytical reason, irrespective of whether or not we believe in the existence of a truth or meaning. We can establish the principles of immutability and change in the same way as Socrates or Aristotle, or establish a framework of reference and hierarchies of truth as we go in search of the first Reality, like al-Kindî (ninth century) and then Ibn Sîna (Avicenna: 980-1037) We can, like Descartes, determine a strictly rational method and maxims, or begin by observing the truths empiricists like Berkeley and Hume derive from what they call sense-data. We can in fact start out from a thousand philosophical postulates and theses, and construct so many truth-systems that their very number signals their relativity. When we are climbing a mountain, we accept that only one side of it can be observed. There is still a danger that we will think that, whilst we accept that the mountain has many slopes, only one path actually leads to the summit … the path we are taking. Even though we accept, in theory, that there are many hypotheses and many truths, there is a danger that, in practice, we will assume that our certainties and truths are exclusive. Or that we will pass a final judgement on those who seem to have taken a different path: they are ‘alienated’, to use Feuerbach’s categories, or what Sartre describes as minds that have been colonized by ‘bad faith’, or even as ‘cowards’ or ‘bastards’. Given that we alone can reach the summit, even though we are armed with the faculty of a reason that is shared by all, it therefore seems almost logical to think that the values that we discover or elaborate are naturally those of everyone. The terms of the equation are perfectly clear: the universal of reason quite naturally has to be accepted by all rational beings. If that is not immediately obvious, the passage of time will make it so. That is the meaning of Auguste Comte’s theory of the three stages (theology, metaphysics and positivism). According to Comte, there is ultimately only one path, and not several, and some civilizations are simply ahead of others. For Comte, positivism is the ultimate realization of philosophy. Fukuyama translates this idea into political terms when he announces the ‘end of history’ and claims that the West is showing the way. This is not, then, a matter of diversity, but of temporality and historicity. It is quite simple: some are seen to have gone further down the road of human progress’s linear evolution and will reach the universal before others. We cannot criticize those who support this approach for appropriating anything, for having established illegitimate property rights or for claiming to have a monopoly on the universal: like Rousseau, they accept that the fruits belong to all, and the earth and the summit to no one … the only problem being that only their path leads to the earth, the fruits and the summit. And that they got there first …This is a matter of point of view.



It has often been said that religious minds or people of firm convictions are the most likely to surrender to the temptation to appropriate the universal and to assert that they have a monopoly on it. That is quite true: if we believe in one God or in the one Path that leads to truth and fulfilment, there is a real temptation to speak for or in the place of the God in whom we believe or in the name of the spiritual Truth we support; the history of religions and civilizations is adequate proof of that. And yet we have often seen people taking a very different stance. There are religious and spiritual thinkers who are so acutely aware of the danger of becoming inquisitorial and totalitarian that they have always striven to emphasize the values of diversity and of listening to others, who have firmly rejected the need for coercion and respected the multiplicity of religions, Paths and points of view.. At the opposite extreme, we have seen rationalist, sceptical, agnostic or atheist thinkers claiming to be open-minded, and then coming around to the view that the very idea of their own open-mindedness gives their status and their values a natural superiority. The cult of Reason that emerged from the French Revolution had its moments of terror too. Because they confuse self-doubt with open-mindedness towards others, some rationalists and sceptics succumbed to the same temptations of exclusivism, not in terms of the universal in itself, but in terms of the one path that leads to it. That is the paradox of those who believe that there is only one way to have an open mind.



The common feature of the various attitudes that gradually lead to monopolization of the path to the universal has less to do with the object of the quest than with the disposition of the intellect that goes on it. Points of view are determined by states of mind: all these attitudes have succumbed to the dogmatic temptation that colonizes the intellect. In that sense, the dogmatic mind is not necessarily a religious or a believer’s mind, and it is quite capable of influencing very rational intellects. The characteristic feature of the dogmatic mind is its tendency to see things from one exclusive angle, and to think in terms of absolutes: the dogmatic mind thinks that it is God and passes judgement from on high and in the name of eternity, just as it thinks that it is the absolute viewpoint (Bergson sees this as a contradiction in terms) and the only centre of what is seen and what there is to see. Exclusivity is its territory and its property, and the universal is its ideal: its truth alone is true, its reasons alone or rational, and only its doubts are certified.



The dogmatic mind displays, moreover, one further characteristic. It would be a mistake to think that it accepts the existence of only one point of view: the dogmatic mind is a binary mind. Whilst it states that its truth is the only truth, that its Way is exclusive and that its universal is the only universal, that is because it stipulates –at the same time—that anything that does not partake of that truth, that path and that universal is, at best, absolutely ‘other’ and, at worst, culpably mistaken. This simplistic state of mind can sometimes be astonishingly sophisticated; it is, to say the least, disturbing, to observe, at the heart of postmodernity and globalization, the rise of mass movements that are, in varying degrees, intellectualized or emotive, that shape dogmatic and binary minds that are increasingly incapable of accepting the complex multiplicity of points of view, paths and ways. It is as though mass communications, with their colossal powers, their capacity to bring psychological pressures to bear and the uncontrolled complexity of their power to influence us, had shaped a new ordinary human being, in both the East and the West, the North and the South. This increasingly universal human being is, like his fellows, in danger of becoming simplified: we are seeing the global birth of a binary mind that is increasingly devoid of complex ideas and nuances, easily convinced of the truths it is told again and again, colonized by perceptions and impressions that are as intellectually vague as the way it judges others is cut and dried and final..
Wassalaam
Jamil
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

A binary mind indicates the reality of the Miraj. We can reach the Truth without syllogisms. It is the process of detachment. It is the reality of either/or.
 

stargazer

Clear Skies!
Nice article. I wonder which society is free from this. All events we see today is the result of people strictly adhereing to their own view point and outrightly rejecting that of the others.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

It is not for a society to be free but the composite of individuals need to be free. Like for like. We know if we are sincere believers, to thyself be true, we thus become strong members of a unit i.e. community. We thus by definition become sincere members of a larger unit. It is spelled out for dummies like me in the Holy Quran. It is a gestalt. Hence we are encouraged to remain together in groups. If we follow too much ideology we become remote dreamers. We have to find a balance.
 

justoneofmillion

Junior Member
Exactly. Balance is the bedrock of Islam. There is, for instance a fine line between respect for and loyalty to scholars and taqleed. Taqleed dumps the mind, incapacitates intellect and makes infallible out of humans when we all know that even the prophet, peace be upon him, made mistakes which are documented in the Quran! That's one extreme. The other extreme is to look down on our great heritage and attempt to reinvent the wheel. No good ever comes out of extremes.
:salam2:I agree with both of you.Brother Ayman Very lucid words there.I believe in being proactive in contextualizing our history and changing the world for the better instead of constantly adapting and assimilating to a status quo or to an essentialization of our glorious history that is far from giving humanity the proper means for it s fulfillment.May allah help those in command for ijtihad but we can also play a part in that process through our daily life, nuance we must take responsibility and play a part before our death bed carries us,with the sensation that we could have done better.
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O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

Feed the hungry and visit a sick person, and free the captive, if he be unjustly confined. Assist any person oppressed, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.”
- Prophet Muhammad

Youth is like a stream, if it is not directed to its course it meanders and swallows its tail.- Jude Ezedike African proverb

"The more sand that has escaped from the hourglass of our lives the clearer we should see through it"
Jean Paul Sartre.

"The one-eyed person is a beauty in the country of the blind"Arabic proverb

Laws are spider webs through which the big flies pass and the little ones get caught. Honore de Balzac

“Man is fond of counting his troubles, but he does not count his joys. If he counted them up as he ought to, he would see that every lot has enough happiness provided for it.”Fedor Dostoyevski

"“It is not only what we do, but also what we do not do, for which we are accountable.” Moliere

Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.Ancient chinese proverb

"God gives the nuts but he does not crack them"Kafka

"Let everyone sweep in front of his own door, and the whole world will be clean. "
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
 

justoneofmillion

Junior Member
Salaam,brother if you only knew how profound this guy can be in his lectures subhanallah all merit goes to Allah swt .I don t find the same eloquence when he lectures i n English sadly.Altough he can speak good but it is a whole universe of difference when he speaks in French Be it about spiritual,socio political or academic subjects.This guy has been attacked from all sides but in France i promise you that everyone salutes his intelligence and rhetoric even his enemies , the uncle toms Politicians, journalists ...etc .He is like a talking Proust ,he neutralises and challenges them all without exception.If you speak French listen to him in French!i ve never heard anybody lecture this way in the English speaking world.I think he needs to take intensive English courses to be able to have the same ease in English as he has in French.All the merit goes to Allah swt

wassalaam
 

Ibn Uthaymin

Junior member
Salaam,brother if you only knew how profound this guy can be in his lectures subhanallah all merit goes to Allah swt .I don t find the same eloquence when he lectures i n English sadly.Altough he can speak good but it is a whole universe of difference when he speaks in French Be it about spiritual,socio political or academic lectures.This guy has been attacked from all sides but in France i promise you that everyone salutes his intelligence and rhetoric even his enemies!Politicians, journalists ...etc He neutralities and challenges them all without exception.If you speak French listen to him in French!i ve never heard anybody lecture this way in the English speaking world.I think he needs to take intensive English courses to be able to have the same ease in English as he has in French.All the merit goes to Allah swt

wassalaam

Walykum assalam

Well i dont know much about him. But iv listened to one of his lectures in English. He speaks with a French accent and i like it. Its easier to understand his point.

But this article is too eloquent. Its making my eyes fuzzy
 

hussain.mahammed

a lonely traveller
As salam alaikum Br. Jameel aka justoneofmillion

Masha Allah, didn't see you for so so long time. Subhan Allah. Please contact me asap. May Allah bless you.
 

besmiralalbani

Think for yourself
As-salamu alaykum

I don't want to open a discussion, a debate.
From my understanding of Islam, from ayats that I have read in the Qur'an and hadiths of Rasool salallahu alayhi wa sallam, shows me that this way of thinking is not correct.
And I am telling you why, by proofs, OBVIOUSLY:


The Truth is Very Clear

The Prophet Muhammad (salallahu alayhi wa salam) said,
I have left you upon clear proofs, its night is like its day, and no one deviates from it except one who is destroyed, and whoever lives (long) from amongst you will see great controversy. So stick to what you know from my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly-guided Khaleefahs - cling to that with your molar teeth.” [Reported by Imaam Ahmed (4/126), Ibn Maajah (no.43), al-Haakim (1/96) and al-Baihaqee in al-Madkhal (51)]

“Indeed the people of the Book before you split into seventy-two sects. And this nation will split into seventy-three sects; seventy-two are in the Fire and one in Paradise”. And in another narration, “All are in the Fire except one.” It was asked: Who is that one? He replied, “That which I and my Companions are upon.” [Related by at-Tirmidhi (5/62) and al-Haakim (1/128)]

Ibn Mas’oud (radhiyallahu anhu) said: “Allaah’s Messenger drew a line for us and then said, “This is Allaah’s Path.” Then he drew lines to its right and its left, and said “These are different paths, upon each of them there is a Shaytaan (devil) calling to it”. Then he recited the verse:
And Verily this is My Path, so follow it, and do not follow other paths for they will separate you away from His Path.”
[Soorah al-An’aam, 6: 153]

So Rasool, salallahu alayhi wa sallam, indicates that there is only one path to be followed. We can be open minded, but we HAVE TO LEARN the POINT OF VIEW of ISLAM before, take sound knowledge about what the Religion of Allah says, and than we can talk with others, confront with their ideas.
But Islam comes first, with its TRUE TEACHINGS. All the Prophets alayhi sallam, followed one way, their messagge was La ilalaha il-lAllah. They had different things in fiqh, but the path is their path.

That's what we learn from the Qur'an. We read their stories, the story of Rasool salallahu alayhi wa sallam, the story of Sahaba radiallahu anhum, the compliments that Allah says for them, and we follow them.

That's for me to be open minded.

We can see the world today. It is true that there are too many different ideas... But if everyone says my idea is the right one... Than everyone has the truth. When we have to be based on something, especially when we want to say that THIS IS THE TRUTH, we have to be based on something.
In our case, we are Muslims and we are based on Islam, the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of Rasool salallahu alayhi wa sallam, the understanding of Sahaba radiallahu anhum, and our great scholars too.

Allah says, that the scolars are those who fear Him subhana wa ta'ala, most.

And we have to clarify when we say:
we all know that even the prophet, peace be upon him, made mistakes which are documented in the Quran

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/42216/prophet%20mistake

Asalamu alaykum
 

justoneofmillion

Junior Member
assalaamu aleikum, con tutto rispetto e humilita se permetti ,Mi sembra che non abbi capito bene cio che sta dicendo paesano...;).No one is disputing what you said not even the author.He is talking among other about our emotional and defensive attitudes while we make universality and universal values exclusive to us according to our frame of references and reject everything that belongs to the other. All the potential wisdoms and righteous concepts,Isolate ourselves and fail the challenge of being here as "Witnesses" among mankind or even for dawah as an example we need to be Inclusive,we need to know profoundly about "The Other" and penetrate with Humility and confidence his universe of reference ,without confusing humility with Ambition or openness with adherence, without completely disqualifying our potential Brother ,sister in Faith just because he comes from where he comes from or with the ideology and certainties he comes with.The same goes for ideologies to a certain extent as well.Promoting the good is also to know how to extract it from all the bad it might be surrounded by!.

He is intending if you will with a more religious connotation that Allah s swt "presence" and wisdom might be felt and found everywhere and in all traditions,The sense of good and bad is innate to us,we have been created this way that Allah swt calls that "AL MAAROUF" literally THAT WHICH IS KNOWN.From a Muslim perspective the human being is born pure and thus potentially good that is why when somebody converts for example we say he REVERTED Or he came back to his original faith!.This is a very hopeful and pedagogically positive starting point for us to constantly renew ourselves be creative and be vectors to extend the mercy of Allah swt to his people the .We can not distance ourselves from this responsibility,without making the necessary tools for it s fulfillment our own and analyzing the magnitude of approaches at our disposal.

Sometimes you find for example things the in the western legal system that are closer to Islam than countries with a majority of Muslim population(aka corruption,dictatorship,abuse of human rights)and the other way around is also valid. Please note that he is not talking about Islam but about Muslims if you will and he is also not talking about secularism and humanism but the dogmatic minds that claim to speak and act for them.The only way to be consistent with the message and to open a fertile ground is by developing a double critical mind that uses reason and principle as it s tenets beyond our respective universes of references ,and in the current sad state of the world the stance imposed on us if we wanna take our own destiny in our hands is to find a Middle wayof applied ethics,"Ijtihad "to be consistent and relevant in changing the world for the better instead of either Assimilating or rebelling. Both are unproductive ,lazy and serve as excuse for not doing anything.

If we don t adopt such an attitude, it simply means that we are complicit with the current state of the world(The hunger,the wars the unequal distribution of wealth,the elitist governments,the banking and economic system based on Riba,the unethical use of science...etc) thus cower in the appearance of fidelity,find Appeasement in the appearance of knowledge.But how could we do that when we pray "Allah zidni illman".Remember that we are not only judged for what we do but also for what we don t do!

As he says"Only through continuous reinterpretation in light of changing geographic and historical contexts can Muslims remain faithful to the revealed message's ethics and aims. Prophetic traditions (Ahadith) too must be subject to a critique of authenticity and substance….
A deconstruction is thus necessary to distinguish between the cultural and the religious….Confronted with literal readings and cultural interpretations, a vigorous reform process must be conducted that affirms there can be no loyalty to the texts' substance without evolution in their interpretation. A religious tradition that remains static betrays itself: there can be neither tradition nor fidelity without evolution.
–Tariq Ramadan

All that i have said right was from Allah jalla wa ala the mistakes are mine.
peace be unto you.
 

besmiralalbani

Think for yourself
As-salamu alaykum

From what I have learned from Islam I could point this thngs in the article...
This person have stdied Philosophy first, and letterature, and later went to Egypt to take knowledge there.

Now I wrote what I wrote, because:As you said
Remember that we are not only judged for what we do but also for what we don t do!
And we have to do just what Allah subhana wa ta'ala said us to do and what Rasool salallahu alayhi wa sallam told by his way to do.
It is enough.
I have a question for you brother in Islam:
How much do muslims know (me included) about Islam, to go and interpretate, or analise other ideolgies.
There was a great shaykh called Ibn Taymiyah, rahimehullah, who gave answers to this matters, inclusing in his works Anwers to the Philosophers.

So we have materials to study.
But the first thing we have to study very good, is Tawheed. That's what Rasool salallahu alayhy wa sallam said to Muadh ibn Jabal when he went to Jemen, to start with Tawheed.

The problem with Muslims nowaday, as respected scholars tell us, is that we have left Islam. Look at the situation of Muslim world firstly, we have to learn, to apply, to invite the others by sabr (patience).

But if you want to call the others, or talk with other ideologies, you HAVE TO KNOW YOURS FIRST... YOU HAVE TO KNOW ISLAM... then you can go.

That's what I said. And I think, it is clear.
Only through continuous reinterpretation in light of changing geographic and historical contexts can Muslims remain faithful to the revealed message's ethics and aims. Prophetic traditions (Ahadith) too must be subject to a critique of authenticity and substance….
A deconstruction is thus necessary to distinguish between the cultural and the religious….Confronted with literal readings and cultural interpretations, a vigorous reform process must be conducted that affirms there can be no loyalty to the texts' substance without evolution in their interpretation. A religious tradition that remains static betrays itself: there can be neither tradition nor fidelity without evolution.
–Tariq Ramadan

I TOTALY disagree, sorry brother but Islam is not static. Islam teaching shows what the human being MUST do and what MUST NOT DO.
If the countries, the people are going astray, that's not because Islam is static... NO NO NO...
If you read the story of Islam, every time the Muslims didn't succeed it was because they were not well hanged to Islam, only after they turned to the Qur'an and the teachings of Rasool, salallahu alayhi wa sallam, they succeed.

And I will end by this hadith, so we can analise ourself by the teaching of our Prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam:

"When you deal with interest, and hold fast to the tail of the cow, and become contented with agriculture, and you leave Jihad in the Way of Allaah, Allaah will permit your humiliation and will not lift it from you until you return to your deen." (Sahih: Taken from a speech by Al AlBaani

Prophetic traditions (Ahadith) too must be subject to a critique of authenticity and substance….

So who can do that... there are not too much scholars in the science of hadith. And I don't think this person is able to say what is correct and what is not correct in the science of hadith.
which are the basis for criticizing the hadith?!

Anyway, I agree with your conclusion:

All that i have said right was from Allah jalla wa ala the mistakes are mine.

Asalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
 

justoneofmillion

Junior Member
From what I have learned from Islam I could point this thngs in the article...
This person have stdied Philosophy first, and letterature, and later went to Egypt to take knowledge there.

Now I wrote what I wrote, because:As you said

And we have to do just what Allah subhana wa ta'ala said us to do and what Rasool salallahu alayhi wa sallam told by his way to do.
It is enough.
Here is the answer quoted for islamicity.
No one can repeal Allah's law. How do we, then, deal with developing situations? To answer this, I have two Hadiths to quote: The Prophet sent his companion, Moath ibn Jabal, to the Yemen as a governor. Before Moath left, the Prophet asked him, "How will you adjudicate in matters that will be put to you?" Moath answered, "According to Allah's Book (i.e. the Qur'an)." The Prophet then asked him, "What if you find nothing to guide you?" Moath answered, "Then according to the Sunnah of Allah's Messenger." The Prophet repeated his question. "What if you find nothing to help you?" Moath said, "I will use my discretion, making every effort to arrive at the right decision." The Prophet said: "Praise be to Allah who has guided Allah's messenger to implement what pleases Allah and His Messenger." The Prophet is quoted to have said: "My nation will never agree on something which is wrong." These two Hadiths give us the basis on which analogy and consensus rely as legitimate sources of rulings. We note that in the first Hadith, the Prophet refers to the possibility that a ruler or a judge may find nothing in the Qur'an or the Sunnah to help him arrive at the right ruling in a certain case. The method of deduction explained by Moath is one of scholarly discretion. What this means is that he will consider what may be analogous to the case in hand of matters that have a clear judgment in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. This then is scholarly discretion. The Prophet was pleased with this method and stated that it was satisfactory to Allah and to himself. The second Hadith is clear. It does not mean that every single person in the Muslim community should agree to something for the consensus to take place. What it means is that the scholars in a particular time may unanimously arrive at a certain decision. If they do, then that decision cannot be wrong. A clear case which explains both matters is the verdict on smoking. When the question whether tobacco smoking is permissible in Islam was put to scholars in the past, many of them did not object strongly to it, although some pointed out that it was reprehensible or discouraged, due to its smell and other factors. However, when more recently the question was put to a number of scholars together with the medical evidence about the damage tobacco can cause to health, a verdict of total prohibition was returned by an overwhelming majority of them.

The problem with Muslims nowaday, as respected scholars tell us, is that we have left Islam. Look at the situation of Muslim world firstly, we have to learn, to apply, to invite the others by sabr (patience).
Ok!even though it has nothing to do with the subject of the discussion i will answers this one. It is always easy to put the blame on others.With all due respect what do they then propose to practically achieve that!are they implying the right methodologies ?Can a scholar of the text give a legal opinion on medicine or science without having the humility to sit down with another Muslim specialist on the field without sharing the insight of the scholars of the context.This may also be the reason why even a new born Muslim baby inherits the failures of his parents and that of the scholars ,those of a whole nation of people or let s say the whole socio political and educational system handed down to him in his childhood....Because both are completely detached from the folks needs and priorities "Daourat wal haja".Is that his fault?So we have also to open the door to self criticism even when it comes to scholars,this lack of islam might be also caused by them using the wrong methodologies and incapacity to connect to the people and their needs for the contemporary world ,what about this eventuality? .It is humain they make mistakes as everybody else,like brother ayman pointed out!they can not be good in everything and anything.we respect and honor them but this is nor reason to start worshiping them.

But if you want to call the others, or talk with other ideologies, you HAVE TO KNOW YOURS FIRST... YOU HAVE TO KNOW ISLAM... then you can go
Akhi Akhi! don t pull a fast one on me please! this is a far too noble call to be turned into a mere slogan if quoted out of context.Show me where he or i said that!show me where i said or he said that we do not have to know Islam.he is talking about a completely different subject!Of course you have to know the alternative you are presenting to the world before presenting it, this is non sense.Of course you can not change the world if you don t change yourself if you wanna be credible.But this is not the subject he has got 27 books out there ,do you expect him to talk about it all in one page.come back to your senses akhi be reasonable and listen entirely to what he has to say before being judgmental.

That's what I said. And I think, it is clear.
I think it is only clear to you until you stop reacting emotionally from the defensive and actually analyze what he is saying and ponder about it.Otherwise you will do the same mistake again of talking about why he is selling bananas if he could sell apples...thinking that he doesn t have apples which by knowing this brother i think is outrageously untrue.


I TOTALY disagree, sorry brother but Islam is not static. Islam teaching shows what the human being MUST do and what MUST NOT DO.
If the countries, the people are going astray, that's not because Islam is static... NO NO NO...
If you read the story of Islam, every time the Muslims didn't succeed it was because they were not well hanged to Islam, only after they turned to the Qur'an and the teachings of Rasool, salallahu alayhi wa sallam, they succeed.
Firstly,You don t have to apologize i won t mind if would have the courtesy of showing where he says that Islam per se is static!you are seeing only what you want to see brother,and this comes from a constant defensive attitude. That is what he is exactly describing in this article!Show me where he says that Islam is Static!.He is only justly saying that Muslims can sometimes be static and unproductive,subhanallah!.I listened so many talks of him saying that it is because a lot of muslims don t know about islam and that is the thing they needed to cure.

Second,The glorious history you are alluding to did not happen with the unique input of Ulamaa an nossous the scholars of the text. It was a collective effort and process,a dynamic commitment with no hierarchical traits.Where everybody was involved.Philosophers,scientist,poets,merchants..etc .This brother is a muslim thinker and philosopher he dedicates his whole life to this,to deny him the right to express his views really questions our capacity of understanding the evolvement of our history not the opposite!This Papal attitude is not of Islam!we must be careful of not becoming the beast by trying to kill the beast.





So who can do that... there are not too much scholars in the science of hadith. And I don't think this person is able to say what is correct and what is not correct in the science of hadith.
which are the basis for criticizing the hadith?!
Again he is just laying the framework for that enormous responsibility which needs more than one,two or 100 scholars it is a collective effort.He never claimed to be a scholar of the text he is a scholar of the context in the world we live in today,he knows perfectly the rules of the game and we can not afford to neglect his thesis,we need people like these as well as we need the scholars of the texts.We take the good we leave the bad . we don t vilify and exclude by saying "who is this Guy"what an unsensitiv way.

Anyway, I agree with your conclusion:
I agree with some of your conclusions others seems to me a bit premature on the lecture of this article it need much more accuracy.I will take the good in my heart.Leave the bad and i will ask from you to give me back my sentence with outmost respect if dont mind i ll thank you by saying:

All that i have said right was from Allah jalla wa ala the mistakes are mine.

Asalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
 

besmiralalbani

Think for yourself
As-salamu alaykum

A religious tradition that remains static betrays itself: there can be neither tradition nor fidelity without evolution.
–Tariq Ramadan

Muadh, radiallahu anhu, knew all the Qur'an, from the Sunnah and he saw the Messenger salallahu alayhi wa sallam, teachings... you can not put in your mind to compare this great Sahabi with this Philosopher... Then Muslim schoolars know the Qur'an by heart, thousand of hadiths, are good in arabic and study Islam by the way of Ahli Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

The problem with Muslims nowaday, as respected scholars tell us, is that we have left Islam. Look at the situation of Muslim world firstly, we have to learn, to apply, to invite the others by sabr (patience).

It has what to do. I am simply saying:
Let us improve ourself first BY KNOWING ISLAM in the right way, than someone who is eloquent can study all the other realities... It is dangerous for a person who has not much knowledge to learn things that goes not in the same way with his 'Aqeedah.

I have not said anything against you.
I just pointed what from what I have learned, is not correct in the article.
I am refering to the text of this PHILOSOPHER...
Islam is a complete way of life. It explains everything that we need.

And I don't take Islam from AHLUL KALAM, saying sincerely for Allahs sake.
Read 'Aqeedah book and you will find why... You can find a book called:
The Creed in Allah - Shaykh 'Umar al Ashkar
And understand than what I am talking about...
Ibn Taymiyah, rahimehullah, wrote a collection of books, clarifying the mistakes and the misguidance of Philosophic way...

This is not DEFENSE, this is an ADVICE.

This Papal attitude is not of Islam!we must be careful of not becoming the beast by trying to kill the beast.
Thank you very much for the compliment, stay in attack...
Papa is in Rome, and have a lot of money... a power... and is in the wrong way... I don't want to be a Papa... I alahmdulilah am a Muslim, that try to learn islamic teachings,not philosopher teachings...
I am not able to understand the philosopher thoughts, its too much for me!!!!

I didn't want to open a discussion... I said that, I just put some evidences how we must look the reality as Muslims, our duties first, knowing our path than... see what we can do with the others, after we have taken SOUND KNOWLEEDGE:

All that i have said right was from Allah jalla wa ala the mistakes are mine and from shaytan.


Stammi bene fratello

wa salamau alaykum
 

justoneofmillion

Junior Member


Muadh, radiallahu anhu, knew all the Qur'an, from the Sunnah and he saw the Messenger salallahu alayhi wa sallam, teachings... you can not put in your mind to compare this great Sahabi with this Philosopher... Then Muslim schoolars know the Qur'an by heart, thousand of hadiths, are good in arabic and study Islam by the way of Ahli Sunnah wal Jama'ah.
salaamu aleikum ,The thing is that i don t wanna compare akhi what s the point.If we can learn lesson of principle from as salaaf and try to apply them in our contemporary world
this guy can contribute more today then the sahaba in a practical manner ,rahimahoum allah they all died akhi they don t know the societies we live in today .This guy is alive in he has a lot of insights for muslims especially those living in the western world.I don t take every word he says for absolute infallible never but i must admit that he has this originality of confronting both worlds at the same time.as i explained before i can understand because the whole system is messed up.my agreement to some of his ideas doesn t mean that i condemn myself to always agree with everything he brings forth. I believe his intentions are good ones.his effort is huge and i don t like when my poeple who don t know him talk bad about him because he already has an army of non muslim propagandists attacking him,slandering him doing everything to vilify him,lying and banning him from talking, and in what a manner he always stands calm ,confident and dignified for this i applaud him.He must be digging that strength from somewhere.allahu aalam


It has what to do. I am simply saying:
Let us improve ourself first BY KNOWING ISLAM in the right way, than someone who is eloquent can study all the other realities... It is dangerous for a person who has not much knowledge to learn things that goes not in the same way with his 'Aqeedah.
am not saying anything against knowing Islam in the right way akhi.Nor did this brother say that so i agree with you on this one.I just understood that the fact that i said we had to know the other aswell was a problem.by that i don t exclude the need of knowing Islam,we can do both.if that is what you thought i meant.

I have not said anything against you.
I just pointed what from what I have learned, is not correct in the article.
I am refering to the text of this PHILOSOPHER...
Islam is a complete way of life. It explains everything that we need.
I still think you misunderstood some parts of the article when he said religious traditions he means the legal and applied ethical dimensions That Muslims try to promote need to evolve in order to meet the challenges of our time and lead the way once again instead of being constantly showed the paths.And in his book he shows in which ways this could be done.It is a an intellectual effort a proposition not a dictation. He said many times "for me the Quraan is the Word of god there is no discussion about that,now i have in front of me a text and a context,am not talking about changing Islam ....etc" .Note that he is also criticizing the dogmatic atheist ,secularist as a little hint to what he is trying to achieve ...etc.

And I don't take Islam from AHLUL KALAM, saying sincerely for Allahs sake.
Read 'Aqeedah book and you will find why... You can find a book called:
The Creed in Allah - Shaykh 'Umar al Ashkar
And understand than what I am talking about...
Ibn Taymiyah, rahimehullah, wrote a collection of books, clarifying the mistakes and the misguidance of Philosophic way...

This is not DEFENSE, this is an ADVICE.[/QUOTE]Thank you.


Thank you very much for the compliment, stay in attack...
Papa is in Rome, and have a lot of money... a power... and is in the wrong way... I don't want to be a Papa... I alahmdulilah am a Muslim, that try to learn islamic teachings,not philosopher teachings...
I am not able to understand the philosopher thoughts, its too much for me!!!!

I didn't want to open a discussion... I said that, I just put some evidences how we must look the reality as Muslims, our duties first, knowing our path than... see what we can do with the others, after we have taken SOUND KNOWLEEDGE:

All that i have said right was from Allah jalla wa ala the mistakes are mine and from shaytan.


Stammi bene fratello

wa salamau alaykum
Sorry akhi but i did not mean to condemn you to celibacy that might be touchy i know.You understood what i meant.I leave you in the care of Allah swt.

E stato un piacere di parlare con te.
wasslamu aleikum warahmatullah
 

justoneofmillion

Junior Member
As salam alaikum Br. Jameel aka justoneofmillion

Masha Allah, didn't see you for so so long time. Subhan Allah. Please contact me asap. May Allah bless you.
:salam2:Ok Bhai ,thank you for being happy about seing me.we ll talk soon inshallah.yallah shukryat bahu bahut :lol:

PS.wher is humblewun, mohsin,libin,bint al muslima...etc i don t see them posting.May allah protect them
 

Mohsin

abdu'Allah
:salam2:Ok Bhai ,thank you for being happy about seing me.we ll talk soon inshallah.yallah shukryat bahu bahut :lol:

PS.wher is humblewun, mohsin,libin,bint al muslima...etc i don t see them posting.May allah protect them
ASSALAMU ALAIKUM YA AKH AL KAREEM !!!

Where have yooooooooooooou beeeen ??? I tried to contact you in every possible way but to no avail. Anyways bro here I am and it really feels great that you still remember us. Hope to talk to you soon. I was looking at the posts on the front page and saw your name.:) will post more after reading the article, inshaAllah.
 

saif

Junior Member
:

PS.wher is humblewun, mohsin,libin,bint al muslima...etc i don t see them posting.May allah protect them

:salam2: brother Jameel,
I am very glad to see you again.

Our brother thehumblewun was banned from TTI for representing the Ashari belief and criticizing the "prevailing" belief in TTI. Sister albint almuslima gradually ceased to be around, after she was unnecessarily emabarrased by some brothers for uttering her very innocent wish to marry Abu Bakar Assidique in Jannah. Instead of keeping quiet some brothers kept on discussing it, which added to her embarrasment. I guess, that was too much to take for her. Brother Mohsin has already contacted you. About Libin I don't have any information.

:wasalam:
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

I am glad to see some of the names that are posting. It has been hard holding up the fort here.

Now, lets get back to intellectual posting.

Why are we debatingt? There is nothing that prevents us from using common sense. Islam is not static. We have had, are having, and will have people come along to help us understand how to apply Islam under all circumstances. Islam did not stop in the 6th century.

The human condition has not changed. The conditions we live under have. We have to have lucid and rational minds help us apply Islam in the world we live in. We are living under vastly different circumstances. In a sense that is why we have this site.
 

zainsmommy

Junior Member
Assalamu Aleikom Brother,

It has been quite some time since I've read a post from you. MashaAllah..I am very pleased to see you here.

I am a thinker by nature--who isn't right?--and I read every word with pleasure and really enjoyed it. I have only just begun to read him and I am already speechless most of the time.

It is not often I get to read someone who thinks in a similar way, but is able to articulate in a manner that I am not able. It really helps me to see that I am not so odd/different after all.

May Allah shower you with His mercy and forgiveness. May He make your life one of ease and always keep you on the straight path Ameen

I still come here about once a day to have a look around, but rarely post anymore. Your posts are greatly missed by many of us who have gained much from you.
 
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