Saudi Arabia & witchcraft

septithol

Banned
If you're talking about physical evidence to support the fact that jinn exist, you would be hard-placed to find any. Do you even know what jinn are? If you did, you would realize that they lack alot of the animalistic qualities you mentioned above (i.e. hair, blood, footprints).

In other words, you have NO evidence that you can actually show for the existence of the Djinn


Based on the Quran, God states the following:

And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire.” [al-Hijr 15:27]

You can't exactly contain smoke now can you?

As a matter of fact, you can. In fact, you can contain a vacuum, or an electrical charge, both of which are far less substantial than smoke.

Also, I can't exactly show you a photograph of one because that would qualify as seeing them and humans can't see jinn. The word "jinn" itself comes from the Arabic root "janna" which means 'to conceal'. The jinn's true forms are concealed from mankind and so we can't see them walking and talking like we see each other.

Try to understand this: I could claim that there is a giant pink elephant in my back yard. When you demand proof of this, I tell you that the elephant is invisible, so you can't see it, floats in the air, so it leaves no footprints, doesn't eat or poop, so it leaves no stool, makes no sound so you can't hear it, has no body heat, so it can't be detected by infrared cameras, and is insubstantial so you can't touch it. At some point, if there is no possible proof, there is no functional difference between there being a pink elephant and there NOT being a pink elephant. It's existence or non-existence are indistinguishable, so it cannot be a factor in a court case.

However, one point to note is that although you can't see them in their true forms, it has been proven that they are capable of taking on other forms, such as those of humans and animals. This fact has been verified by the Prophet Muhammad

HOW was it verified by Muhammad? If it was verified by him, then this verification should be able to be shown to other people. Or did he simply SAY that the Djinn existed, and that he had verified them?


Just like Muslims believe Adam is the father of mankind, we also believe that Iblis (Satan) is the father of the jinn.

It is entirely possible that you do believe it, and it's entirely possible that it is true. However, what you BELIEVE, or claim that you believe, and what you can PROVE are two entirely different things. Things that you merely 'believe' have no place in a court room, however strongly you may 'believe' them, even if, in fact, they are true, unless, and until, the time, that you can actually PROVE them. Muhammed's say-so is not proof. My own say so, even if I am sure I am telling the truth, is not proof.

Understand this, if you run a court room based on just what you 'believe', even if you are sure it is true, even if it actually IS true, there is no real way to prove someone guilty, and as I said before, there is no real way for the person to prove they are not guilty.

When you run a court on that basis, what you now have is a blank check, for killing anyone you dislike. All you must do is accuse them of this 'black magic'. Since there is no proof of this black magic, there is no way for them to prove that they have not done it. It's an automatic death sentence for anyone who is disliked, regardless of whether they are guilty or not, because without proof, they cannot prove their innocence.


Again, capturing them on camera would require seeing them and they're pretty much out of humanity's visual range of focus. That being said, individuals all over the world have managed to capture "strange sightings" at times and call them a variety of names, some of which are "ghosts, spirits, demons, etc." These would definitely be remnant of the jinn somehow as in Islam, we do not believe in the aforementioned terms, except that it is a jinn causing mischief. Regarding changes in temperature and humidity, there are those who go "hunting" for ghosts and will bring along equipment that will detect the very changes you speak of. They sometimes do discover the changes in environment and temperature that you mentioned and attribute them to the presence of ghosts. .

I happen to believe in a variety of spirits myself. However, I cannot *PROVE* them. The only things that belong in a court room are those which can be proven or disproven somehow. Case in point: I was given a dream once by my own patron diety in which I was given information which proved to be accurate, when I looked it up at the library. I know this to be true, I know what I dreamed, and that I had not known this before. BUT - I have no way of proving this. I cannot open my skull and take out my dream and show it to people. Nor can I prove that I did not know this information before my dream. In fact, it's possible I am mistaken, maybe I did know it before and forgot about it! At any rate, since it is something I cannot prove, regardless of how strongly I believe in it and know it to be true, I have no right to bring it into a court room.


Regarding lab rats being tested for the "curse" of jinn, that's preposterous. That suggests that jinn are experimental variables that can be used in control and experimental groups, quantified and measured, something completely farfetched.

Yet the basis of the charge of 'black magic' in Saudi courts, is that the Jinn CAN be controlled, and used to do things like cause illness in people. It seems a little bit 'convenient', shall we say, that these Jinn can supposedly be deliberately controlled by certain people to do black magics, and you now have a nice justification for killing people you dislike, yet they suddenly are unable to be controlled, when I ask you to duplicate this effect of black magic in a laboratory for me.

This is, I imagine, why Westerners regard their methods in court as superior. We can, at least, consistently SHOW the proof of what happened. If a court here says that somebody died of poison, we can show you a test that detects the poison in their body, we can show that the same test will be able to accurately detect the same poison in test animals we fed the poison to. We can show you the same poison and the same test results 50 or 100 or 1000 times, we do not claim that we strongly 'believe' someone was killed with poison, but then the poison suddenly mysteriously vanished from their body, leaving no trace at all, even under a microscope, or won't kill animals in a laboratory, or that there is otherwise no 'proof' but our 'beliefs'.

Without proof, only beliefs, you do not have a court of law, you have a lynch mob killing a scapegoat.

It's an entirely independent species of beings, who would most likely not appreciate being used as experimental guinea pigs. Nor would they volunteer as such.

Again, very convenient, an excuse for no proof.


Like I said, the basis for their existence comes from the Quran and Hadith. If you're intent on disbelieving in them, then there's nothing one can really say to dissuade you.

My belief in the Quran is irrelevent. Writing about a creature in a book is not proof that it exists, with no other evidence. Mind you, the fact that there is no other evidence doesn't mean that it DOESN'T exist, either. But you can't bring it into a court room until you have more evidence than just a mention in a book.

Shariah has a means of proof. It's called the Quran and Hadith. Evidence to support both have been found in reality. I've mentioned instances of them. And any argument you present me with would be countered by evidences from Islamic sources.

A book, in and of itself, cannot be proof, even if it is true. Let me give you an example: The ancient Aztecs believed that the sun would go out, unless numerous people were sacrificed on top of an altar by having their hearts cut out of their bodies. Suppose someone were to start killing people in this fashion, and offer as justification for their actions, an ancient Aztec manuscript, and claim that the fact that this manuscript said that the sun would go out if such sacrifices were not performed was 'proof' that they were right in killing these people.

Would you be very sympathetic? Especially if they said that there was no other proof than the Aztec manuscripts, like problems with the sun being seen with a telescope, because the sun knew when telescopes were pointed at it, and only had the problems when no telescopes were watching?

Well, it's possible. But highly unlikely. Far more likely, than magical Aztec dieties making the sun go out, but working their mischeif only when no telescopes are looking at the sun, is that the person is evil or insane, and wants an excuse to kill people.

And if you question our beliefs, then believe that we have faith in what we believe to be the True Word of God. That is what these systems govern on and that is what non-Believers don't understand.
I believe that you have faith, and it's probably right in it's own way. It's probably stronger than my own particular faith. However, neither your faith, nor my faith, has a place in a court room, without proof. I am not saying that you absolutely cannot bring Jinn into a court room, simply because they are an Islamic concept, and everything Islamic is bad. I am saying that you must have proof of these Jinn that you can actually show, not just 'belief' or a writing in a book, however much you might regard the book, before you can bring them into a court room.

I should point out, that there are western beliefs that should not be brought into a court room, for the same reason, such as the belief in angels, leprechauns, and goblins.

Questioning why we can't perceive certain things will ultimately lead you to ask the question of how God can even exist because we can't physically perceive Him. If that's the case, you are on a COMPLETELY different tangent, my friend, and there is zero point in having this discussion.

Actually, I have my own ideas as to how God can exist without having physical form (as we know it). But they are incredibly complex, somewhat mathematical in nature, and it would take much too long to explain it in this post. If you want to hear about them, you can PM me and I will TRY to explain them to you. I expect proof of my ideas (or disproof of them) to be found eventually. However, until such time as there is proof, my ideas, even if they are right, have no place in a court room. And I should also point out, that should everyone in the world who has the same ideas as I do merely sit around arrogantly saying 'we KNOW we are right, we believe it, and need no proof', there is never going to be any proof.

Let me tell you something I read in a book once, this was fiction, but incidents like this may well have happened.

There was a man in the book, which was set in Poland in the year 1231. The entire left half of his body was paralysed, he could not move that half his body, or feel anything. The people in the book were certain that this was caused by black magic.

No... it was caused by a stroke. But they didn't know what a stroke was in the year 1231.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

You know what I love about life. I have to wash the dinner dishes. It is a must. So what am I doing right now...that is one of the things I love about life.

Dear sweet Septithol...1231 the Europeans were stupid. Do a comparative history chart. They were counting the number of angels one could get on a pinhead. Please. I know you do not want me to go start with the Catholic church and all the craziness there. Women were drowned for being witches.

Come on now..we still have exorcisms to this day. Warlock possess girls.
The whole sleeping beauty thing.

Please stop with the Western thing. It is really beginning to irritate me. Islam is not alien to the West. You are stuck on the European model of the scientific method. It is that simple.

OK...the court system. It is based on Jewish and Christian law. If you read the scripture it is laden with things that go bump in the night. Western law is based on precedence. If it happened before it can be real. You have the death sentence. But you only execute the poor. The rich get away with everything. You buy yourself out of the crime. If you are rich you buy the best lawyer. What does law have to do with it.

I really am going to start reading your posts word for word and am going to have to break them down. Unglue you.

Your courts start with the word of God.

I am being kind to you. Do not mock my faith. Do not mock the faith of my sisters. I am not playing. You think it is amusing to write on this website. You think the little logic you were given is superior to our faith.

Wake up. I am getting serious now. Please refrain from mocking my faith. I am a believing woman and Allah subhana talla answers my prayers.

You want to play games please go buy a playstation. But do not play games with believers. Do not play with our faith.

InshaAllah, from this moment on I will deconstruct each word you write, each thought you express, and promptly humble you. I have had enough for people playing with my faith. No more. I am sorry you have to be the one I start with..but someone had to be.

Sister Shahnaz forgive me.
 

septithol

Banned
Learn from Christian mistakes

Perhaps it will be easier for some of the people here to learn from a very tragic mistake made in the past by Christians.

Hundreds of years ago, there were certain women in Europe who the other people were certain, absolutely certain, were doing black magic. These women, were, so the other people thought, doing black magic and selling their own babies to the devil, so that the babies would be born dead, or dying, and die a few days later. And they knew for sure this was what was happening, because they had books telling them that this was how black magic worked.

Except... they were wrong. We now know today what was wrong with these women's children dying. These women had a rare blood type, called 'RH negative'. If a woman with this blood type marries a man who has 'RH positive' blood, her own blood will often attack they baby when it is still inside her. This is not something she can control, it is not her fault. These women should have been pitied, not put to death for black magic.

I should mention, that there are now shots a woman with RH negative blood can take, to keep her children from dying. But these shots would never have been made, if people kept insisting forever that the children were dying because of 'black magic' simply because they did not understand why the children were dying, instead of using their minds, and trying to LEARN and UNDERSTAND why they were dying.

The fact is, people get sick and people die, and we do not always know the reason why. Could they die from black magic? Yes. But there are other reasons besides black magic for people to die, that we might not understand.

Suppose a man dies, and I think his wife has cast black magic on him to make him die, because they argued the previous day, and the doctors cannot find a reason why he died. I have no proof that his wife cast black magic, but I believe that she did, simply because nobody has any other reason why the man died.

But what if I am wrong? What if the man died of some rare problem with his nerves, that nobody has discovered yet? If I kill his wife, then I am a murderer, I killed her with no proof, because there is not, as of yet, any proof for black magic.

And I tell you this as well: Even if I am right, even if his wife did do black magic, and deserved to die. Even if that is the case, with no real proof, no way to be truly certain, no real way to show black magic, rather than some rare other cause, then I am still a murderer in my own heart. I may be told after I die, that the woman did do black magic, but it is the same as if I decided to kill a man because I thought he was ugly, or quarreled with him, then found out only AFTER I had killed him that he was a murderer with bodies in his basement. I did not know he was a murderer, I had no proof of it, WHEN I killed him. Whatever I learn about him afterwards, at the time I killed him, I was a murderer in my heart.

I would much rather explain to my God, that I let free someone who was doing black magic, because I could not be certain of it, and will not kill someone without being certain, then to explain to my God that I kill people without being certain, and am a murderer in my heart.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Your major error in thought: your God. Sorry...Allah subhana watala is the Only God.

We can not divide Him. He is not my God and not your God. He is the Creator of the Words and that includes us.

( you seem to think that "magic" is a thing of the past because you have decided in your mind that it is not present..what proof do you have that it does not exist. You do not. You are only speaking from a limited set of experiences, yours. That is ludicrous. You are one human being out of billions. You can not speak about the experiences of humanity at any given point in time. Our knowledge base is limited.)
 

ShahnazZ

Striving2BeAStranger
Okay.

I'm actually kicking myself because I didn't see this before.

Let's fight fire with fire.

I was so blinded with refuting the arguments that were presented to me that I didn't see what was right in front of me and thus, the only viable conclusion in this ridiculous debate. I see that Aapa is thinking along similar lines.

Septithol.

Oh Septithol.

You demand proof for the existence of black magic and jinn and at the same time you worship a so-called deity of death.

The answer is right in front of you and the fact that it's so obvious is ludicrous.

You're refuting the concept of jinn when in actuality you're WORSHIPPING one.

See, the jinn that do Satan's bidding try to mislead humanity in various ways. The biggest accomplishment for them is getting us to commit the one unforgiveable sin in existence:

Shirk. Association with the One True God. Belief in a diety other than Him.

You have dreams in which this something came to you with accurate information and you immediately started worshipping it (which by the way is SUPER smart). That's actually a ploy by Shaytan to induce polytheism. In fact, it's how idol worship began.

The devil and his minions (aka Iblis and his jinn followers) can take the shape of anything and can appear in your dreams as anything. They are infamous for mixing truth with falsehood. In your case, simply providing some true facts so they could impress you enough to devote your entire being to them. Seems they didn't have to try very hard and that should tell you something about yourself.

Honey, they're probably having a field day with you.

There is no deity of death. There is simply you and your delusion.

You play dirty by insulting Muslims and criticizing Islam and Shariah. I can play right back. Tell me all about this jinn that is deluding you into believing it is one of many gods. Tell me how it managed to take a critically thinking human being and bring her over to the dark side. Tell me how it then got her to believe she actually has the right to be self-righteous when she has dedicated herself to worshipping a sci-fi freakshow.

And then present your ridiculous assessment about how Muslims are the delusional, crazy, archaic ones once again.

You wouldn't float on water for five seconds.

It's interesting that you call us hypocrites for exacting punishment without the type of proof YOU deem fit, and all this time you're literally worshipping something straight out of the Twilight Zone.

At least we have references to Divine Guidance and are simple drops in an ocean of Believers who believe and have faith in the same Message that we do.

Who do you have but you and yourself? And YOUR brainpower outweighs that of millions of individuals around the world, including scholars and scientists?

Mathematical methods of thinking you say you have. Show me the mathematical equation for your god and his existence. Let's see YOUR proofs for the method of your madness.

Pot, meet kettle. You don't get to tell us what's what when you yourself have no leg to stand on.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

That's right sister.

She is deluded. She thinks she can come here and cause confusion. Back off baby. Back off.

You are just beginning to see the power of Muslim sisterhood. You insult my sisters. You insult my brothers. No more.

You had the nerve to call me immoral. Think again.

You do not come into my backyard. This is my territory. And it protected. I Believe as do my sisters. Let me put it in simple terms. I got my sisters and me...

Time to leave. Exit. Adios. Goodbye. Game over.
 

septithol

Banned
This thread is getting angry

Shahnazz, this thread is getting angry, so I am instead going to PM my response to you, rather than make it angrier.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

There is no anger on my part. I am just having a little girlish fun. As I wrote earlier do not mock my faith.

And you are retreating.
 

ShahnazZ

Striving2BeAStranger
Septithol, you need to post the PM you just sent to me in this discussion thread for everyone else to see.

The sick things you say to me about the Quran itself being the work of evil spirits needs to be discussed with everyone and not in a PM where you can hide behind the rouse of being considerate of everyone else while secretly slandering Shariah behind their backs.

Either you post it or I will.
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
:salam2:

I'm trying to figure out what Septithol's trying to point out in this entire thread, and in fact, all of her posts on the forum. What does she want to gain by regularly visiting "Turn to Islam"?
 

esperanza

revert of many years
:salam2:

I'm trying to figure out what Septithol's trying to point out in this entire thread, and in fact, all of her posts on the forum. What does she want to gain by regularly visiting "Turn to Islam"?

yes iagree if she is arguing with people at every turn???why is she here
 

septithol

Banned
Septithol, you need to post the PM you just sent to me in this discussion thread for everyone else to see.

The sick things you say to me about the Quran itself being the work of evil spirits needs to be discussed with everyone and not in a PM where you can hide behind the rouse of being considerate of everyone else while secretly slandering Shariah behind their backs.

Either you post it or I will.

I think it's extremely rude to post private messages, but if you feel the need to do so, then at least have the honesty to post it in it's entirety, not pick and choose just parts of it to post. And I didn't get to send you all of it anyways, your mailbox is full.
 

ShahnazZ

Striving2BeAStranger
I gave you the opportunity to post your own private message first, that's all. I have no problem doing it myself. I've actually never done this before but you've crossed the line with this false facade of yours. Do NOT try to intimidate me in private just because you're too scared to post your miserable thoughts in public. Like you've done all along.

You're bold enough to come out and accuse Muslims of being murderers on a public forum. At least continue your ridicule in public. Hiding behind PMs under the guise of not wanting "to make a thread angrier" just shows how fake you are when you had no problem doing so in the first place. At least be consistent with your methods.

And it's fascinating how it's "rude" to post private messages when the very content of your PM was rude and inflammatory.

Such blatant hypocrisy.

Oh well.

Blatantly rude and inflammatory PM coming up in next post. Do be kind enough to post the second half as well since I only have the first.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Why respond Shanhaz.

Our purpose it to gain knowledge and share love.

For those who are not Muslim and want to learn we do so with open arms.

I think it is funny. She used the word angry. There was no anger in our posts. This is to incite us to an emotional level and leave our senses behind. When we become emotional we allow our lower selves to surface.

Guard your worship. Let us use the words from our faith to combat this nonsense.

Shahnaz, please delete the PM. We have far better things to discuss. I would rather discuss why witchcraft is flourishing in Saudi Arabia today. What are the socio-economic conditions that are enabling the perpetuation of witchcraft. I want to get a handle on the current issues.
 

your-sister

Junior Member
Assalaamu 'alaikum.

Guys, it is quite clear that the sister(Septithol) is in need of guidance... So pray for her please- rather than letting her mere words get to you. In the end, no matter what the disbeliever say, *we* know that, With Him who Created us, Islaam is the only Deen! Alhamdulillaah. And there's nothing they(the disbelievers) can say or do that will change that. If they're not going to agree with our Shari'ah laws, then so be it. No one is need of their approval anyways.

Sihr(witchcraft) is a sure thing...we have many saahirs working with shayaateens even to this day. That's a fact. You can choose to accept it or not.
Jinns exist. They're part of the ghayb(unseen). And that's another fact. Again, one can choose to accept it or not. Your choice will be questioned though, not by us ordinary people..but Allaah 'azza wa Jall.
 

ShahnazZ

Striving2BeAStranger
This actually rings true. I shouldn't be fanning the flames when clearly they've already been fanned by someone who's claiming a lack of desire in wanting to fan them.

And I happen to be fasting.

I'm not going to make this thread uglier, Septithol. You managed to do that yourself.

You're not here to learn. You're here to point fingers and tell us what horrible human beings we are for adhering to our code of justice when you have zero right to do so in the first place.

I'll cease from posting your disgusting words only because unlike your faith, mine actually teaches me etiquette about how to deal justly with others. Yes, I said justly. I actually don't feel right about posting someone's PM on a public thread even though they deserve to have everyone else be witness to their hypocrisy. This is an Islamic forum and you have no right to bash Islam the way you have done. You don't deserve any courtesy and irrespective, I feel inclined to give you some.

Your sickness dies with me. I'd advise against posting anything like what you wrote to me in any other thread on this forum.

If you're looking to preserve whatever respect you have left, that is.
 

kashif_nazeer

~~~Alhamdulillah~~~
:salam2:

Sihr(black magic) does exist and so does ayn(evil eye).That is why Allah revealed mu'awidhatayn al falaq and an nas for protection.Two angels Harut and Marut descended in Babil,they were sent as a test and taught magic to people but warned them that we are sent as a test so do not do kufr by learning sihr.This are used by people due to their ego and jealousy to hurt other.May Allah guide them and rescue everyone who is affected by them.Ameen.
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
This actually rings true. I shouldn't be fanning the flames when clearly they've already been fanned by someone who's claiming a lack of desire in wanting to fan them.

And I happen to be fasting.

I'm not going to make this thread uglier, Septithol. You managed to do that yourself.

You're not here to learn. You're here to point fingers and tell us what horrible human beings we are for adhering to our code of justice when you have zero right to do so in the first place.

I'll cease from posting your disgusting words only because unlike your faith, mine actually teaches me etiquette about how to deal justly with others. Yes, I said justly. I actually don't feel right about posting someone's PM on a public thread even though they deserve to have everyone else be witness to their hypocrisy. This is an Islamic forum and you have no right to bash Islam the way you have done. You don't deserve any courtesy and irrespective, I feel inclined to give you some.

Your sickness dies with me. I'd advise against posting anything like what you wrote to me in any other thread on this forum.

If you're looking to preserve whatever respect you have left, that is.

:salam2:

I commend you, dear sister, for your totally righteous conduct according to Islam. We turn away evil with what is good. If someone argues with us, and we *know* there's no hope they'll listen to us (as is the case here), we just turn away and ignore them, praying that they'll see the light someday.

I think we should just refrain from replying to any insidious posts. I also think Septithol should probably try looking for a mathematics or a statistics forum, as she seems to worship those more than anything else.
 
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