Seven times?

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sister herb

Official TTI Chef
Thing what put me to think is mention in video Dogs rights in Islam, when dog eats or drink by same plate than you, need to clean it 7 times, one time for earth. Why just seven times? Why those numbers?

In ancient times number 7 was "holy" as people in Babylon named names of weekdays by 7 planets (actually sun, moon and 5 planets). But in islam shouldn´t have secret numerology at all.

So why just 7 times?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqo6McNOalg&feature=player_embedded[/ame]
 

Ershad

Junior Member
Assalamu Alaykkum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

This is based on a hadith and not numerology.

Narrated Abu Hurayrah: Allaah's Apostle (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said,
"If a dog drinks from the utensil of anyone of you it is essential to wash it
seven times." [Saheeh al Bukhaari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 173; Saheeh
Muslim, Book 002, Number 0548] And in another version from Muslim: using
sand for the first time. [Saheeh Muslim, Book 2, Number 0549] And in
another hadeeth reported in Muslim: On the authority of ‘Abdullaah Ibn
Mughaffal who reported that the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said:
“When the dog licks the utensil, wash it seven times, and rub it with earth the
eighth time” [Saheeh Muslim, Book 002, Number 0551]

If you want a small analysis of this Hadith, check this link.

Baarakallahu feekum!
 

sister herb

Official TTI Chef
:salam2:

Thanks for your answer but isn´t here any way to find why just this 7 times? What is meaning for words of Muhammed for just 7 times?

Sorry my pc hasn´t program I could open that link.
 

Ershad

Junior Member
Wassalamu Alaikkum,

I will give you a gist of what is in that link.

- The saliva of the dog is filthy. Similarly, that which comes from its body (its urine and sweat and the like) is also filthy. The dog is filthy.

- The dog’s filth is Aghladun Najaasaat (it is of the most intense of impure things in effectiveness)

- Why seven times? That is the Shari'ah of Allah which he revealed to the Prophet :saw2: . Dog's filth is more intense in impurity than anything else, in effectiveness. So, to neutralize it purification is required. The way of Purification was said by the Prophet :saw:. The knowledge of ultimate "why" lies with only Allah, Allahu A'lam.
 

sister herb

Official TTI Chef
:salam2:

Thanks again but I am not interesting about dog, just why number 7?

During the rituals of Hajj, the pilgramage to Mecca, pilgrims walk around the Kaaba 7 times.

Pilgrims are also required to throw 7 pebbles at each of the three walls representing the Devil. The "Stoning of the Devil" is preformed at Mina, just outside of Mecca.

In the Qur'an chapter 18 we can read about the Seven Sleepers as told by Muhammad. God had sent the angel Gabriel to reveal the story of the Seven Sleepers to Muhammad. The name of chapter 18 is "The Cave".

Just some examples. Why 7 all the time?
 

Ershad

Junior Member
Sister, I do not know why the number 7. It is the wisdom of Allah, so I do not ask why. I do not apply science & tech or Logic for religious legislations. That is not how we understand it.
 

Hajjerr

He is Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram
salam aleikum wa rahmatulahy wa barakatuh

i disagree with the fact that we should follow everything and reject looking for science or logic in our faith, this is not how islam teaches us, alhamdullilah...we are encouraged to seek knowledge and the more logic things are, the more we are stronger in deen, alhamdullilah.
if i would follow blindy something, maybe today i would not be muslim, because i was raised as christian, but alhamdullilah i searched, read, i looked for proffs, for logical evidences by the Mercy of Allah.
i dont know the answer sister harb, but because we dont know does not mean there is no answer at your question, Allah knows better.

In the Qur'an, God invites men of understanding to think about the issues which other people overlook, or just dismiss using such barren terms as "evolution", "coincidence", or "a miracle of nature".

In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are Signs for people of intelligence: those who remember God standing, sitting and lying on their sides, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: "Our Lord, You did not create this for nothing. Glory be to You! So guard us from the punishment of the Fire. (Qur'an Ali-'Imran: 190-191)

As we see in these verses, people of understanding see the signs of God and try to comprehend His eternal knowledge, power and art by remembering and reflecting on them, for God's knowledge is limitless, and His creation flawless.

For men of understanding, everything around them is a sign of this creation
.

may Allah guide us

:tti_sister:
 

sister herb

Official TTI Chef
:salam2:

Thanks sister Hajjerr, I think you just said what is most important:

but because we dont know does not mean there is no answer at your question, Allah knows better

Also we never can´t stop find more knowledge.
 

sister herb

Official TTI Chef
لكلام في الإعجاز العددي دحض مزلّـة ، ومزلق خطير !
والملاحظ فيه كثرة التكلّف ، والتعسّف للقول بموجبه .
:astag::astag::astag:

:salam2:

By English too please. This is not Arabic forum!
 

Ershad

Junior Member
salam aleikum wa rahmatulahy wa barakatuh

i disagree with the fact that we should follow everything and reject looking for science or logic in our faith, this is not how islam teaches us, alhamdullilah...we are encouraged to seek knowledge and the more logic things are, the more we are stronger in deen, alhamdullilah.
if i would follow blindy something, maybe today i would not be muslim, because i was raised as christian, but alhamdullilah i searched, read, i looked for proffs, for logical evidences by the Mercy of Allah.
i dont know the answer sister harb, but because we dont know does not mean there is no answer at your question, Allah knows better.

.

may Allah guide us

:tti_sister:

Walaikkum Assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

Sister harb, I am sorry if I am hijacking your thread. I just wanted to clear some misunderstanding. Sister Hajjer, I understand where you come from. Yes, when we ponder upon creation we come to conclusion that there is only one God. I agree. But, we do not give precedence to logic over following in Sunnah of the Prophet :saw2:. That is why I said I do not ask for logic in religious legislations. If you ask for logic in everything, people would ask what is the logic in Praying the way you do? What is the logic in having the pants above the ankles? Why do you believe in Jinn when you cant see them? See, the logic and science fails in these aspects don't they?
That is why the wisdom and intelligence is in following (ittibaa) the Sunnah of Prophet :saw2:. Do you think Sahaba asked the Prophet :saw2: why 7 times or why 4 rakat or why wash three times during ablution? No, they didn't. They just followed. That is the wisdom.

You posted a Ayat for me. But that wasn't applicable in the context. Maybe you should ponder over the Ayat in my signature and following ones:

And the first to embrace Islaam of the Muhaajiroon and the Ansaar and also those who followed them exactly, Allaah is well-pleased with them as they are well-pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success.
[At-Tawbah 9:100]

Follow what has been sent down unto you from your Lord, and follow not any protectors, besides Him. Little do you remember!
[Al-A'raaf 7:3]


And regarding seeking knowledge, the knowledge is the understanding of the Salaf-us-Salih. And they followed the Sunnah, not apply the logic to it. There are some issues which might pass the logic test, but some might still fail our understanding if we use logic.

And also, if you apply logic to understand God, there are lot of perils in that. I will leave you with an example of a person who applied logic to lot of things and it ended only in confusion:

[yt]TnNz759a81c[/yt]

There are certain things we don't question and we just follow. That is the wisdom.

Note: I am not refuting or anything the person in the video. But I will leave it to your individual discretion.
 

Hajjerr

He is Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram
salam aleikum wa rahmatulahy wa barakatuh

dear brother Ershad, i respect very much your posts alhamdullilah, but i dont understand how can you see there is no logic in religion, there is in islam, there is no logic in other inventions, but in islam there is and we are encouraged to ponder over everything.


I quoted that ayat for reason, in hade relevance in context bec, speeks about humans intelligence that help us reflect, that is why we have brain and intelligence, alhamdullilah. But your ayats i dont know why have relevance bec. they say follow, but they dont say follow without questioning.

"It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah."
(Qur'an, Fatir 35:28)....so knowledge..

tell me dear brother, maybe for born-muslims it is good to follow without questioning,they are stille on safe side, but for non-muslim, you can advice them the same ? should they follow their parents teachings without questioning ? i dont think so dear brother....

If Muslims truly realise the importance Islam places on knowledge and its virtues, they will definitely be keen to learn and teach others. They would start with themselves and their families; then their neighbours and the community at large. Once Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan (may Allah be pleased with her) gave a sermon in which he said, "I heard Allah's Messenger saying, "If Allah wants to do good to a person, he makes him very knowledgeable in the Deen." (Related by Bukhari and Muslim)

This is because knowledge is the basis of all good; it generates actions that are based on the commandments of Allah and the instructions of the Prophet . Hence, every Muslim must instil in his mind a desire to seek knowledge. Allah (Most Exalted is He) instructed His Prophet -- and thus all Muslims -- to ask Allah to increase him in knowledge. He said:

"And say: My Lord increase me in knowledge."

(Qur'an, Ta-Ha 20:114)

we all know alhamdullilah that knowledge is not learning something like a poetry, but reflecting on every aspect of the issue and considering the logic behind also.
why you make separation between logic and religion ?

:tti_sister:

:salam2:
 

saima abdullah

my life iz 4 Allah
there is nothing like
:salam2:

n ancient times number 7 was "holy" as people in Babylon named names of weekdays by 7 planets (actually sun, moon and 5 planets). But in islam shouldn´t have secret numerology at all.
in islam it totally rejects from taking omens and magic or secret numerology, but what you said later is right 7 number is very frequently used in rituals as you mentioned
During the rituals of Hajj, the pilgramage to Mecca, pilgrims walk around the Kaaba 7 times.

Pilgrims are also required to throw 7 pebbles at each of the three walls representing the Devil. The "Stoning of the Devil" is preformed at Mina, just outside of Mecca.

In the Qur'an chapter 18 we can read about the Seven Sleepers as told by Muhammad. God had sent the angel Gabriel to reveal the story of the Seven Sleepers to Muhammad. The name of chapter 18 is "The Cave".
but there are many other number like 3 , 7 , 11 , 21 and 33 to count diker and yes we say 3 times tasbeeh in rakh ans sajood why dont you notice that there are mostly odd number to count things ,, but dear its nothing like "da vinci code" or numerology it is not to ponder on the numerology but to believe,
it is divine thing Allah did not mentioned reasons behind this so we have to believe and it is a test
is right in quran Allah SWT mentioned there are seven skies and seven earths ,,, ever you questioned why there are 7 heavens ?
never, but we normally quest these things in chapter cave ayyah no 22 Allah said about the people who were trying to guess about numbers of the people of the cave , and Allah replies within the same ayaah
They will say there were three, the fourth of them being their dog; and they will say there were five, the sixth of them being their dog - guessing at the unseen; and they will say there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog. Say, [O Muhammad], "My Lord is most knowing of their number. None knows them except a few. So do not argue about them except with an obvious argument and do not inquire about them among [the speculators] from anyone."
this is not new to talk about such thing but we can not make guess or say that there are secret hidden in this whatever was good for us is mention in Qurant and hadith , may be some reasons are told in hadith but what you have mentioned is not right and Allah knows the best ...
 

Ershad

Junior Member
Walaikkum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

Sister, I understand what you say. Non-muslims, they ask questions and we answer logically, yes. That is the bare minimum to accept the faith. I am not saying no logic at all. But, logic shouldn't be the way we understand the religion. You can still use the logic. What I am saying is that logic doesn't take precedence over following. There are some things that might seem illogical to us, but still there might be a wisdom which Allah only knows. Can we just stop following if it seems illogical? And, let me ask you a question. Those ayah refer to seeking knowledge.

How do you equate knowledge or intelligence to logic?

Secondly, you say it doesn't say follow without questioning? Do you question why you pray the way you do or why you do ablution the way you do? No, we don't. There are some things for which Messenger :saw2: gave us the reasons why we do something and for something, he did not mention. Hence, the wise thing would be to follow it. I am not saying absolutely no questions. But, there is a danger of too much questioning. You might ask why we do this or what is evidence from the Sunnah for this practice. But would you ask why the messenger :saw2: said this or did this? No, you wouldn't. Because, the messenger :saw2: doesn't speak from his desires. Rather, everything he said was revealed from Allah. That is why I said we should follow the Messenger :saw2: blindly even if there is no logical explanation provided.
 

Hajjerr

He is Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram
Walaikkum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

Sister, I understand what you say. Non-muslims, they ask questions and we answer logically, yes. That is the bare minimum to accept the faith. I am not saying no logic at all. But, logic shouldn't be the way we understand the religion. You can still use the logic. What I am saying is that logic doesn't take precedence over following. There are some things that might seem illogical to us, but still there might be a wisdom which Allah only knows. Can we just stop following if it seems illogical? And, let me ask you a question. Those ayah refer to seeking knowledge.

How do you equate knowledge or intelligence to logic?

Secondly, you say it doesn't say follow without questioning? Do you question why you pray the way you do or why you do ablution the way you do? No, we don't. There are some things for which Messenger :saw2: gave us the reasons why we do something and for something, he did not mention. Hence, the wise thing would be to follow it. I am not saying absolutely no questions. But, there is a danger of too much questioning. You might ask why we do this or what is evidence from the Sunnah for this practice. But would you ask why the messenger :saw2: said this or did this? No, you wouldn't. Because, the messenger :saw2: doesn't speak from his desires. Rather, everything he said was revealed from Allah. That is why I said we should follow the Messenger :saw2: blindly even if there is no logical explanation provided.


salam aleikum wa rahamtulahy wa barakatuh

we think in the same way, but we express in different ways dear brother....you say some things may seem to us that they dont have logic...but my problem is that ...because they seem to us does not mean they are not logic.

i dont question the way we do ablution for example, but if i did, you think that would be no answer ? ofcourse there is, there are explanation from medical point of view about hygiene until the respect toward Allah that we must be clean when we face Him, alhamdullilah....yes, i dont know the details more, why exactly 3 times or other things, but does not mean there is no reason behind why Allah told us like this, i hope that you understand me, inchallah.

Wisdom = a deep understanding and realization of people, things, events or situations, resulting in the ability to apply perceptions, judgements and actions in keeping with this understanding.

...Allah knows better, i will think more about what you said but i wish you to think more about what i said, inchallah.
:tti_sister:



:salam2:
 

sister herb

Official TTI Chef
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28

:salam2:

What this has to do with original question? Is looking for more knowledge same than to be ungrateful to Allah?

:SMILY286:
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Asalaamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Baraakaatuh,

Ukht, take it this way. Doing wudhu, we are told to clean our mouth thrice. Why 3? why not four times? Why wash the mouth before the face why not after.

7 times or 9, you'll have your utensil clean. But following 7 means you acted upon a sunnah. It's just how the Prophet of Allaah:saw: taught us to do.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
this is your sister harb with nother site she is admin there look
My brother, if you disagree with someone on something. Please don't dig out their personal stuff.

You can advise her and advice her "only". It's for her to take what she wants and leave what she wants. Don't get personal. If you think someone is doing something wrong. Hide it as Allaah hides it. Allaah will hide our shortcomings. Muslims should respect and advice each other politely.

I don't mean to come across as annoying or rude. I mean well.
 

saifkhan

abd-Allah
Note: I am not refuting or anything the person in the video. But I will leave it to your individual discretion.

As salam 'alaykum warahamtu-llah


I have seen you before coming up with these type of things.
these type of copying, cutting, pasting things can easily make someone some thing else.

however, my point is not that.

there are some sunnah of Allah, that what He does or says, He never changes.
like Allah said, once He forgives you, He never recalls it. Likewise we human can't do the things, no matter how long the times has passed and we forgive someone, when situation comes we recall it.
that doesn't mean that Allah doesn't know what we did and for what he forgave us.

by these example, I think he indicated this thing. becaue the point was refuting the claims of atheist that God can do anything, like massacre or whatever bad.

He can do anything but He also doesn't leave his sunnah, because thats His promise, which He can not leave. we human can.

let me give you an example, seeing the videos of Dr. Zakir, everyone ponders on convincing people to Islam by science. but no one mentions, what Dr. Zakir says, ALWAYS "Quran is a book of signs, not science" and then he says, yet Quran in 1000 verses says about science. but when people imitates him, doesn't mention it or neither recall, because actually they are convinced by logic in Islam not in faith.

everything of our faith is not based on logic,in human perspective.
there is something in our faith which is based on Ghaib 'unseen'. Suratul bakarah verse 3
so we have to have faith in ghaib, which in no logic can be proved, and thats the faith.

otherwise how can you explain jannah and Naar?

however, Dr. Zakir never said, he believes or people to believe in Islam for Logic, his some lectures which are like Islam and modern Science, he mentioned, otherwise go for his other lectures, he never mentions these.

I have not missed a single lecture session of Dr. Zakir, so i know it better, if you want to come to a point, go for that first, dont trust everything what you see in youtube. the very lectures clips are been cut and pasted, every single lectures i have seen, i never went in a concept of logic. when people see one QA or small part, he/she may think that Dr. Zakir is inviting to logical Islam.

yes our religion is logical, but there are some points also which are unseen, no logic can prove it.
because Allah knows the best.

my point was not refuting you.

that what you can take as sincere advice, because, i dont reply to threads, doesn't mean that i don't read threads.

JazakAllah Khair


BarakAllahu feekum to sister Hajjer and sister Harb, which shows our humbleness and sincerity towards Islam.

of course Allah doesn't do anything for vain reason, so this is our answer.
we don' t know everything, we would be all knowing, Allah didnt make us so.

like Alif, Lam Mim, after suratul fatiha and the 2nd ayah of bakarah, the letters are there.
One of the consensuses of scholars is: Allah put those letters there, so that we understand, that there are certain things those we don't know, even though we know and understand the other meanings of ayahs, next and before. this is one of the consensuses of Scholars.

may Allah guide us and keep us on straight path.

may we get benefited by sharing our knowledge and may Allah help us to help eachother, insha Allah


wassalamun 'alayka
 

saifkhan

abd-Allah
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28

as salam 'alaykum

you are quoting hadeeth out of context, as far i can recall the background of hadeeth.
anyone please correct me if i am wrong

I know several hadeeth and i can use, but simply i dont quote becasue , the wordings can lead another way. if i find i look in internet and then copy paste, of course knowing the contexts.

however, i learnt it from the forum, may Allah bless the forum and the users. and may He accept more members to be rightly guided.

be careful of quoting hadeeth, this is not a matter of playing.

barak Allahu feekum
wassalam
 

Ershad

Junior Member
...Allah knows better, i will think more about what you said but i wish you to think more about what i said, inchallah.
:tti_sister:



:salam2:

Walaikkum Assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

Sister, I have thought about what you said before. In fact, in my early years, I used to use too much logic. I will tell you what the problem with logic is. You said you embraced islam since you used logic.

Do you know Atheists denounce Islam for the same reason? They said that existence of God is not logical.

So, what I say is.. Allah Guided you to embrace Islam, Alhamdulilah. He made it logical for you or made it understandable for you, Allahu A'lam. But, why I do not go much into logical debate is because atheists also use logic to say there cannot be a creator. I know there are some debaters who use logic to prove the existence of the creator and stuff..but you know what Atheists are still atheists. What seems logical to you doesn't seem logical to them. So, logic changes from person to person for some issues. But, Islam is universal. For example, I say I keep beard because it is thermodynamically favourable i.e. it keeps the face warm during winter and helps give out body heat during summer. Yes, lot of people buy that argument. But that is not why I keep beard, I do it because it is Sunnah.

You have to understand that I am not totally against Logic. If you find a logical explanation to follow the sunnah, Alhamdulilah. Whatever satisfies you. But, if someone finds a logical explanation to go against Sunnah... would that be fine? No, no at all. I am not saying you would do it. There are some people who do it.

For example, there are Qur'anists who apply logic to the Qur'an and each one has their own interpretation of Qur'an. So, they form their own rules and regulations. And it is total mess.

But, I believe you understand my point and I do understand you too. My aim was to make you realize that at some point, somethings might not seem logical to you but that should not stop you from following it. And I hope you understand now. So, Alhamdulilah.
 
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