The Methodology of the Salaf Concerning Ijtihad and Taqlid

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
HH, there is a certain number of posts that new members have to reach before they can edit their posts.
Hmm ok.

I wanted to point at that people may think they may have discarded Taqleed when in fact they have just departed from the Taqleed of one person to another.

Combined with the perception that they are following 'Kitab and Sunnah', that can lead to a dangerous mix of Mu`tazili-Khariji-like tendencies when dealing with other Muslims who disagree with them.

Almost all of these people who come out all-guns-blazing against the concept of Taqleed these days are brainwashed into thinking so, and technically they are doing Taqleed of someone else. And when they run out of ideas, they resort to another type of Taqleed - copying and pasting all sorts of articles without knowing what they actually mean.

Some even copy articles that flatly contradict their own position! Like Aziboy quoting Sheikh al-`Uthaymeen!

Even though if he doesn't come round to his senses on this thread, the fact of the matter is one day he will. He just needs to experience life a bit more. His finances are still his guardian's responsibility. Aziboy doesn't know what responsibility and accountability is. His intentions are misguided, and he is isolated in the world of scholarship, quoting Ibn Mas`ud as if nobody before Aziboy ever understood what Ibn Mas`ud was saying until he came along to this forum.

My estimation is he hasn't studied any Fiqh or Usool text methodically, long enough to save himself from academic blunders that only an arrogant layman can perpetrate.

My hope is that one day he'll at least understand where the other side of the argument is coming from.
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Al-Zarkashi said in al-Bahr al-Muhit:

فذهب بعض المعتزلة إلى تحريم التقليد مطلقا ، كالتقليد في الأصول
Some Mu`tazilites took the opinion that Taqleed is absolutely Haram [like what Aziboy thinks], just like Taqleed [is Haram] in theology

He went on to mention:
ومنع منه بعض معتزلة بغداد ، كالتقليد في الأصول ، وقالوا : يجب عليه الوقوف على طريق الحكم وعلته ، ولا يرجع إلى العالم ، إلا لتنبيهه على أصولها
Some Mu`tazilites of Baghdad prevented [Taqleed], juts like Taqleed in theology. They said, "He must learn of the way the law is established and its reason. and he should not refer to the scholar except that [the scholar] shows him the principles behind [the legal reasoning, like Aziboy thinks].

Aziboy, Ibn Mas`ud ain't your Salaf; rather it is the Baghdadi Mu`tazilites. Get a grip pal.
 

Hammy

Banned
Salam `Alaykum

I'm attending on the request of some. Insha'allah, I can benefit from you, esp. from Aziboy and Hammy.

To the pair of you - I have a few questions. Can you answer them for us?

Format will be I will quote you, then the quoted person comes forward and answers insha'allah.

Wassalam
HH

Aah!!! One more Muqallid.... busy in finding spell checks and based on scholarly opinions presenting his fatwas... how can even you think of asking questions to us Huh buddy? without answering our questions you think you'll get away so easily...!!! indeed i had exhausted my attempts in asking questions to Sister Samiha, brother thariq but they are just running hither thither to answer n finding excuses and coming up with whole bunch of scholarly article without cross check and now all of a sudden a new guy... with a new account... interesting...

i'll ask you that simple question once again... if i continue to blind following than how will i answer Grave questions? why shall i not depend on the other quotes made by Abu Hanfia (rh).??? why not i follow shia'a who says they are authentic and they are there since the time of Ibrahim (as)?? even in qur'an their name is mentioned....

i think this is a new account created by thariq as he got caught up in his "FALSE BELIEF" so he is coming up with this... nice attempt bro.... you wasting your time bro... advise to you bro... ask some scholar don't depend upon google sheikh......
 

Aziboy

Banned
Yep bro Hammy, this guys wasting our time Man !!! Poor LAYMANs Ooops I mean Blind Followers, or maybe Muqallids?

Whatever, each goes for ya'll
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Salam
i think this is a new account created by thariq as he got caught up in his "FALSE BELIEF" so he is coming up with this... nice attempt bro.... you wasting your time bro... advise to you bro... ask some scholar don't depend upon google sheikh......
Hammy, I haven't even started advising you, and you come up with this absurd allegation!? You are in the need of Allah's help against your own ill-thoughts. Read Surat 'l-Hujuraat as a start.


Aah!!! One more Muqallid.... busy in finding spell checks and based on scholarly opinions presenting his fatwas... how can even you think of asking questions to us Huh buddy? without answering our questions you think you'll get away so easily...!!! indeed i had exhausted my attempts in asking questions to Sister Samiha, brother thariq but they are just running hither thither to answer n finding excuses and coming up with whole bunch of scholarly article without cross check and now all of a sudden a new guy... with a new account... interesting...
I think you are just intimidated. You have no response to the quotes I have brought from the scholars. I guess you agree with Aziboy that all the scholars, including S. al-`Uthaymeen, are mistaken in obliging Taqleed on laymen like you.


i'll ask you that simple question once again... if i continue to blind following than how will i answer Grave questions? why shall i not depend on the other quotes made by Abu Hanfia (rh).??? why not i follow shia'a who says they are authentic and they are there since the time of Ibrahim (as)?? even in qur'an their name is mentioned....
1. Grave questions? Are you serious? Is it now Haram to be a Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali? Were all the scholars in the books of Tabaqaat unable to answer the 'grave questions'? Give us a list of scholars between 300 A.H. and 600 A.H. you think were on your method, come on. Just name a few.

2. What quote from Imam Abu Hanifah? The one where he said that authentic Hadith is my Madhhab? FYI, he was talking to scholars and advanced students of knowledge, not laypeople like you who don't even understand what Adab 'l-Khilaf is. Read Ibn Taymiyyah's Raf`ul Malam to start yourself off on a good dose of Fiqhi rectification.

3. Our differences with the Rafidis are in the fundamentals of Deen; Taqleed is about Furoo`, not theology. So your comparison does not stack up. Besides, it was the Mu`tazilites of Baghdad - whom you are following as I quoted from al-Bahr al-Muhit for you - who said that Taqleed in Furoo` is not allowed by extending the ruling of prohibition in Taqleed in theology. You are doing the same pal - "Taqleed of Rafidis is is not allowed hence Taqleed in Fiqh is not allowed!"

I'll see what you have to say in your posts now. Until then, try to make your posts less spammy in nature. Everybody is going to forget the heat of the moment, and two years from now, people reading this thread won't be too impressed by your antics. Step up in your game, and discard your Taqleedi copying and pasting - the blindest form of Taqleed.
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Yep bro Hammy, this guys wasting our time Man !!! Poor LAYMANs Ooops I mean Blind Followers, or maybe Muqallids?

Whatever, each goes for ya'll
Digested the Baghdadi Mu`tazilites reference yet?

You quoted from Multaqa Ahl al-Hadith in one of your posts. Do you know what the main posters say about Taqleed on that forum!?
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Mods, I still can't edit my posts, but Aziboy did change his opening post when he realised that he made a massive blunder by doing Taqleed of S. al-`Uthaymeen!

And look at his blunders:
Ibn Hammam
Ibn Qayyam
Lilkai
Zarr
Muzni
Dahabi


Talk about copy-and-paste Taqleed! The blindest Taqleed is when you don't admit you are copying-pasting!

You didn't mention anything that proves there is a difference between Taqleed and Ittiba` by the way - but you did mention this from Ibn Mas`ud:
لا تقلدوا دينكم الرجال، فإنْ أبَيْتُمْ فبالأمواتِ لا بالأحياءِ
Don't do Taqleed in the Deen; if you insist, then [follow] the deceased, not the people who are alive.

So thanks for this, Aziboy, I'll make sure I follow the Salaf in their way of Fiqh, not yours.

Difference Between Itteba and Taqleed

a) Ibn Hammam Al Hanafi 861 h said:

التقليد العمل بقول من ليس قوله احدى الحجج بلا حجه منها
فليس الرجوع الى النبى صلى الله عليه وسلم والاجماع

"Taqleed is acting without proof upon the action of someone whose saying is not among evidence(Quran and Sunnah), following Prophet peace be upon him and Consensus is not taqleed [Tahreer Ibn Hammam fe ilm al asool vol 3 page 453]

b) Ibn Hajib al Nahwi (646 h) said

فالتقليد العمل بقول غيرك من غير حجة وليس الرجوع الى قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم والى الاجماع والعامى الى المفتى والقاضى الى العدول بتقليد لقيام الحجة

Taqleed is following other then (Prophet) without evidence, so Following Prophet peace be upon him and Ijma, laymen asking from Mufti, Qadhi making judgment based on testimony of witness is not Taqleed because there is evidence on that.

منتهى الوصول والأمل في علمي الأصول والجدل page 218


b) Ibne Abdul Barr said Obaidullah bin al-Motaz said

لا فرف بين بهيمة تقاد وإنسان يقلد

There is no difference between an animal who is pulled and a man who is a Muqallid [Jam'e byan al ilam vol 2 page 114]



2. Prohibition of Taqleed from Qur`an


a) Allamah Jalal ud din Suyuti said

عن ابن مسعود اثر اصرح فى ذم التقليد من الاثر المذكور وهو ما اخرجه البيهقى فى السنه عنه قال لا تقلدوا دينكم الرجال وقال ابن حزم فى كتابه النبذ الكافية فى علم الاصول التقليد حرام ولا يحل لاحد ان ياخذ قول احد غير رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بلا برهان لقوله تعالى اتبعوا ما أنزل إليكم من ربكم ولا تتبعوا من دونه أولياء وقوله تعالى وإذا قيل لهم اتبعوا ما أنزل الله قالوا بل نتبع ما ألفينا عليه آباءنا وقال فى حق من لم يقلد فبشر عبادى الذين يستمعون القول فيتبعون احسنه اولائك الذين هد اهم الله و اولئك هم اولوا الاباب وقال تعالىفإن تنازعتم في شيء فردوه إلى الله والرسول إن كنتم تؤمنون بالله واليوم الآخر

Athar of Ibne Masood has a connection in condemnation of Taqleed, This Athar is mentioned by Behaqi in Sunan (Ibne Masood) said Do not make taqleed of people in deen", Ibne Hazam(died in 456 h) said in the book Al Nabad al Kafiyah min Ilm al Asool that Taqleed is Haram it is not permissible for anyone to take words other than Prophet of Allah peace be upon him without proof, Allah says Follow (O men!) the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him." [007:003] and Allah says "When it is said to them: "Follow what God hath revealed:" They say: "Nay!"[002:170] and he(Allah) says.. " So give good tidings to My servants Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding."[39:18] and Allah says "if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allâh and His Messenger, if you believe in Allâh and in the Last Day.[Al Radd min al Akhlad min al Ardh by Suyuti page 52,53]

Tafsir Jalalyan says

O you who believe, obey God, and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you, that is, rulers, when they command you to obey God and His Messenger. If you should quarrel, disagree, about anything, refer it to God, that is, to His Book, and the Messenger, while he lives, and thereafter [refer] to his Sunna: in other words examine these [disputes] with reference to these two [sources], if you believe in God and the Last Day; that, reference to the two [sources], is better, for you than quarrelling or [adhering to] personal opinions, and more excellent in interpretation, in the end.[In his tafsir under 4:59]

Allah says in Surah Al e Imran

81. And (remember) when Allah took the covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah, and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him.'' Allah said: "Do you agree (to it) and will you take up Isri'' They said: "We agree.'' He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses.'') (82. Then whoever turns away after this, they are the rebellious.)

Imam Ibne Katheer Commented

فالرسول محمد خاتم الأنبياء صلوات الله وسلامه عليه ، دائما إلى يوم الدين ، وهو الإمام الأعظم الذي لو وجد في أي عصر وجد لكان هو الواجب الطاعة المقدم على الأنبياء كلهم

Therefore, Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the Final Prophet until the Day of Resurrection. He is the greatest Imam(Imam al Azam), who if he existed in any time period, deserves to be obeyed, rather than all other Prophets(end quote)

Comment: It is proven from Qur`an that No one is Imam al Adham other then Prophet peace be upon him, each and every saying can be rejected (whether the saying is from Imam Abu haneefah or Imam Shafiee or any other Imam) but the saying of Imam Al Azam Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him can not be rejected. Hence, Proved If hadith comes in front of Imam and his saying then the syaing should be rejected. Note that Imam ad-Dahabee said Abu Hanifa is Imam Al azam, Ibn e Hajar Asqalani said Shafiee is Imam al-Azam, Some other have given this title to Imam Malik. All of these great scholars were Imams but even their sayings are rejected in front of Prophet peace be upon him as said by Dahabee himself.

3. Prohibition of Taqleed from hadeeth


a) Prophet Peace be upon him said

والذي نفس محمد بيده، لو بدا لكم موسى فاتبعتموه وتركتموني لضللتم عن سواء السبيل، ولو كان حيا وأدرك نبوتي لاتبعني.

By the one who has the soul of Muhammad, If Musa comes in front of you and if you follow him and leave me, you will go astray from the Right path. If he (Musa AS) comes back to life and sees (witnesses) the period of my prophet hood, he will certainly follow me.[Mishqat al Masabih Volume 001 hadeeth no: 194]

Comment: When Musa Alehsalam have no authority than why to follow a fatwa or Ijtehaad of a particular Imam against Qur`an and Sunnah?

4. Prohibition of Taqleed from Sahaba


a). Abdullah bin masood ra said to his students

عن عبدالله يعني ابنَ مسعود أنه قالَ: لا تقلدوا دينكم الرجال، فإنْ أبَيْتُمْ فبالأمواتِ لا بالأحياءِ.

Do not Make taqleed of people in your deen, If you reject (my words) then follow those who passed away(Companions of Prophet peace be upon him), not those who are alive. [Al Moajam al Kabeer Vol 9 page 116 hadeeth no: 8764, Sunan al Kubra 2/10]
Takhreej

1) Narrated by Lilkai in Sharah asool al aiteqaas Ahlus sunnah:130, Tabrani in Al Kabeer 9/152, Abu Nayeem in Hilya tul Auliyah 1/136 with the rout of Amash-Salma bin Khel from Abi al hawdh from Abdullah bin Masood
Haythamee said Narrators are the narrators of saheeh "Majma az Zawaid 1/188"

Note: Amash is Mudallis and narrating from (AN) but there is 2nd rout of this saying

2) Narrated by Lilkai in Sharah asool al aitekaad 131 with the rout of Obaidullh bin Moosa from Israiel from Abu Husayn from yahya bin Wasib from Masrooq from Abdullah

3) Third rout mentioned by Imam Behaqi in Sunan al Kubra 2/10 Narrated to us Abu Abdullah Al Hafidh, he heard from Abul Husayn Muhammad bin Ahmad Al Qantaree, he heard from Abu al Hawdh al Qadhi, he heard from Muhammad bin Katheer al Maseesi, he heard from Ozaai, hadeeth narrated to him Abda bin abi Ababah

4) Fourth rout mentioned by Khateeb Baghdadi in "الفقيه والمتفقه"(757 with the rout Abu Jafar Muhammad bin Jareer Tabree, hadeeth narrated to him Ahmad bin Waleed, he heard from Abdullah bin Dawud he said Amash mentioned from Abu Abdul Rahman he said that Abdullah bin Masood [ra] said
There is 5th rout of this saying narrated by Imam Ibne Hazam in Al Ahkam 6/97 with the rout of

5) Ibne Wahab heard from Al awzaai he said narrated to me by Abdah bin abi Ababah that Ibne Masood
Comment: When it is obligatory for tabiyeen (one of the best era) to follow sahaba not particular Imam then who are we? how can we say it is obligatory to follow one particular imam from the four imams? These people say (i have read in a forum) that Tabiyeen should follow Sahaba but we should follow Imam Abu Haneefah who is passed away, May Allah guide these people who are making worst taweel from their own. Ameen

b) Abdullah bin Masood ra said

اغد عالما او متعلما ولا تغد إمعة بين ذالك

Be a Scholar or knowledge seeker, do not be a Muqallid in deen who is in between them[Ibne Abdul Barr narrated in Jame Byan al Ilm vol 1 page 71]

It is mentioned in Al Moajam al Waseet

الامع: الذى يقول أحد: ((أنا معك)), ولا يثبت على شىء, لضعف رأيه. و- المقلد فى الدين. و- المتردد الذى لا يثبت على صنعة. و- الطفيلى. وتزاد التاء فيه للمبالغة

one of the Meaning of امع is Muqallid in Deen [see Al Moajam al Waseet page 26,Taj al Arus vol 11 page 4, Al Qamus al Waheed page 134]

Scan of Al Moajam al Waseet: http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Y3h6JhqU8O4/TTlv0NUd1_I/AAAAAAAAAYg/VlX38KgBetE/s400/untitled.JPG

Takhreej

1.Asim from Zarr he said that Ibne Masood said...Ibne Abdul Barr narrated in Jame Byan al Ilm vol 1 page 71 and 72 hadeeth no:108, Ibne Hazam in Al Ahkam 6/234,Behaqi in al Mudakkhal 378

2. Amash From Tameem bin Salma from Abu Obaidah from Ibne Mas`ood Ibne Abi Shaiba in Al Musannif 5/284, Faswi in Ibne Abdul Barr in Jame Byan al Ilm 1/140

3. Jareer from Abi Sanan from Sahal al Qararee he said that Abdullah bin Masood said.. Bukhari in Tareekh al Kabeer 4/99, Abu Khaythama in Kitab al Ilm 116

4. From Muhammad bin al Nazar Al-azdi (thana) Moawiyah bin Amr (Thana) Zaidah (AN) Abdul Malik bin Zubair from Abdullah

And there are other supportive routs of this athar.

c). Muadh bin Jabal [ra] said

فأما زلة العالم فإن اهتدى فلا تقلدوه دينكم

Regarding the mistake of a Scholar, even if he is on guidance don't make taqleed of him in deen[Hilya tul auliywah of Abu Naeem Asbahani vol 5 page 97, Kitab az Zuhud of Wakee bin Jarrah vol 1 page 299,300 hadeeth no: 71,Kitab az Zuhud of Imam Abu Dawud page no: 177 hadeeth no: 193, Ibne Abdul Barr in Jame Byan al Ilm 2/982 hadeeth no: 1872 and 1873 Dar Ibne Jozi, Sharah Asool al Aiteqaad Ahlus sunnah Lilkaai hadeeth no: 198, Al Ilal by Darqutni 6/81 992]

Those who authenticated above narration

1) Abu Naeem Asbahani said after narrating this

كذا رواه شعبة موقوفا وهو الصحيح ، وروي بعض هذه الألفاظ مرفوعا عن معاذ .

Narrated By Shoa'bah Moquf and it is authentic and some narrated these words Marfu from Muadh

Source: http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&bk_no=131&ID=1136

2) Ibn al Qayyam said

This is authentic from Muadh [Ailam al Moqieen 2/239]

3) Muhaqqieen of Kitab az Zuhad Abu dawud (Abu Tameem Yasir bin Ibraheem and Abu Bilal Ganeem bin Abbas) declared the chain Hasan, [Kitab Az Zuhad page no: 177 hadeeth no: 193,]

Note that there is also marfu hadith in this chapter narrated by Tabrani where Prophet peace be upon him said
فاما زلة عالم فان اهتدى فلا تقلدوه دينكم

and regarding Mistake of a Scholar Do not Make taqleed of him in your deen even if he is on hidayah
[Moajam al Awsat vol 9 page 326,327 hadeeth no: 8709,8701 and Sharah asool al aiteqaad ahlus sunnah hadith no: 182]

Haythamee said: Narrated by Tabrani in al Awsat and Amr bin Marrah did not heard from Muaadh

source: http://www.islamweb.net/hadith/display_hbook.php?indexstartno=0&hflag=1&pid=441906&bk_no=195&startno=1


Comment: even if scholar is on guidance don't make taqleed of him in deen) Meaning Follow because it is said by Allah or Prophet peace be upon him, not because the Imam said.

4.Prohibition of Taqleed from Scholars


1) Imam Ash Shafiee

Imam Muzni said

اختصرت هذا الكتاب من علم محمد بن إدريس الشافعي رحمه الله ومن معنى قوله لأقربه على من أراده مع إعلامه نهيه عن تقليده وتقليد غيره لينظر فيه لدينه ويحتاط فيه لنفسه ، وبالله التوفيق .
I have shortened this book from the knowledge of Muhammad bin Idrees Shafiee May Allah be pleased with him, So that if some one wants to understand it understand it easily, and I declare that he (Shafiee ra) Prohibits his taqleed and taqleed of others so that (every person) sees his religion(deen) and be precocious for himself[Al Umm, Mukhtasar al Muzni]

Source: http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=4936&idto=6045&bk_no=31&ID=1937

2)Ameer ul Mimineen Khaleefa Abu Yusaf Yaqoob (died 595 h)

Ibne Khilkaan praised him and said

و امر برفض فروع الفقه وان العلماء لا يفتون الا بالكتاب العزيز والسنة النبوية و لا يقلدون احدا من المجتهدين المتقدمين, بل تكون احكامهم بما يودى اليه اجتهاد هم من استنبلطهم القضايا من الكتاب والحديث و الاجماع والقياس

He ordered to leave faroo al Fiqh and said Scholars should issue fatwa from Quran al Aziz and Sunnah of Prophet peace be upon him and do not make taqleed of Mujtahideen and Mutaqaddimeen, but make the judgments from Quran ,Hadith,Ijma and Qiyas [Ibne Khilkaan in "وفيات الأعيان" (7|11)]

3)Imam Dahabee(died 748 h) said

وكل إمام يُؤخذ من قوله ويُترك إلاّ إمام المتقين الصادق المصدوق الأمين المعصوم صلوات الله وسلامه عليه . فيا لله العجب ! من عَالِم يُقَلِّد دِينه إماما بَعَيْنِه في كل ما قال ، مع عِلمه بما يَرِد على مذهب إمامه من النصوص النبوية . فلا قوة إلا بالله .

We take and reject the saying of every Imam accept Imam of the righteous Sadiq al Masdooq Al Ameen who is Infallible Prayers and blessings of Allah be upon him, By Allah I am astonished on that scholar who makes taqleed of a particular Imam in his deen on his all sayings, knowing that explicit ahadeeth are rejecting the madhab of his Imam. There is no Strength but in Allah[Tazkara tul Huffaz vol 1 page 16 under the biography of Abdullah bin Masood ra]

Scan: http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/PQAAAAUEDIdPLL7kMBXBq10qSkhmFwNNHyZzbzMMD3I_bGT0-uswii1ciQrb5xEMn4xUh-dpcyMOUChyoWQEVVQ9Mb4Am1T1UAcIrb062GOhj8vGkR0s3Gr22pgP.jpg

He also said

"ولقد كان في هذا العصر وما قاربه من أئمة الحديث النبوي خلق كثير ، وما ذكرنا عشرهم هنا ، وأكثرهم مذكورون في تاريخى ، وكذلك كان في هذا الوقت خلق من أئمة أهل الرأي والفروع وعدد من أساطين المعتزلة والشيعة وأصحاب الكلام الذين مشوا وراء المعقول واعرضوا عما عليه السلف من التمسك بالآثار النبوية ، وظهر في الفقهاء التقليد وتناقص الاجتهاد ، فسبحان من له الخلق والأمر.

“The Scholars of hadeeth of this era and period close, and from them a great number and we have not even mentioned 1/10 (One tenth) of them. Likewise in the same time a group of people of Ahlur-Rayy (The people of opinion) Wal-Furoo (The hanafee’s), and how many of their heads were mu’tazilees and Shee’ah and the people of Kalaam were present. Who chased people statements (Fatwaas) and left the way of the Salaf which was to hold onto the hadeeth of the Prophet. And from this same time taqleed became apparent amongst the people and the fuqaha performed ijtihaad to a lesser extent.”[Tazkara tul-Huffaz Vol 2 page 627 under the biography of Abu Muhammad Fzal bin Muhammad]


ausielloblinditem_l2.jpg


Shhhhhhhhh !!!!!!! Beware of Muqallids :D :SMILY335:

However, I believe that to generalise about the common folk by saying that they all must perform taqleed is invalid.

Taqleed is to follow others without evidence.

Many intelligent people can clearly understand evidence if it is presented to them. Who can deny that a common person can understand the evidence contained in the hadeeth, "Tayammum is one strike (of the hands on the dust) for the face and hands"? Even people lacking intelligence can understand this hadeeth. Therefore, the truth is that we must say that Taqleed is allowed for whosoever cannot search for or understand the evidence, Ibn al-Qayyim also was of this opinion. Even scholars are forced to do Taqleed sometimes, when a scholar cannot find a text from Allaah or His Messenger, but only sayings of more knowledgeable scholars."
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
I am no one neither you are to say anything, I asked ya the evidences from Qur'an and hadith on Taqlid coz you replied to this post then shall we proceed insha Allah.
But you have provided zero evidence from the Kitab or Sunnah that says using the word Taqleed is Haram. You are the claimant, you bring evidence and we'll decide for ourselves without doing your Taqleed.


Apart frm asking questions, I would appreciate if you could answer,
get me the word taqlid approved of Qur'an and Sunnah

jazak Allahu Khair
You bring us the evidence that using the word Taqleed is Haram. Did you understand the Shariah better than over a 1000 years of Islamic scholarship? And you expect us to buy your copy-paste Taqleed?


I was actually seeking an answer from you based on Qur'an and Sunnah with regards to Taqlid [following a madhab blindly].
1. Why are you so against Taqleed? Since you changed the opening post and made it about Taqleed versus Ittiba`, you should know that there is evidence in the Quran AGAINST Ittiba`! It has been used for the Kuffar who end up in the fire of Hell! Now why are you running to Ittba` all of a sudden? None of the scholars in Usool 'l-Fiqh - our authorities in Deen, perhaps not yours - ever mentioned that Ittiba` exists a a sub-category between Ijtihad and Taqleed.

2. I gave you about 9 meanings and usage for the term Taqleed. It seems that you think it only means one thing and one thing only: [following a madhab blindly]. Who blind are you!?
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
We have to ask the scholars of the Qur'an and Hadith of any matter which we are unaware with and then we should follow whatever rulings the scholars' gives based on authentic text
But why do you as an anti-Taqleedi Muqallid copy-paster need to ask them in the first place if you are still going to judge them on the Quran and Sunnah!?

Why don't you go directly to Quran and Sunnah? Are you lazy? I can bring you tonnes of Nusoos that prove not to follow people. You are now telling us to go to people. Why don't you discard this as well if you are true to your anti-Taqleed fetish?

And how is a common person like you going to decide if the scholar is basing his ruling on the authentic text?


Ok fine, so please help us [layman] understand how would we know if a hadeeth is authentic then?
That's a question we are asking you. You have failed to answer.


Firstly, why do you want to use the word Taqleed and Muqallid for that matter???
Why do you want to use Ittiba`?


Finally, I loved this when a brother asked why you are quoting S. al-`Uthaymeen when he goes against you - you said:
Why do you want me to bring a scholar to you that supports me? are you crazy?
No, you're the crazy one, blindly copying-pasting, only to realise that S. al-`Uthaymeen must be a deviant in Taqleed, hence you deleted his whole fatwa on Taqleed from the opening post!

Now let is see how much support you have left.
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Also this verse clearly states to "Investigate" not to do "Taqleed"...

Qur'an Chapter 49: Verse 6
O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.


How did the scholars gained knowledge??? infact, they were also Laymen at some point of time... if they did blind following than how they can be called scholars??? than this will go for all... and this will be a chain from the people after Sahabas (ra) till present scholars... all are blind followers than.. isnt this an insult to Allah (swt)...!!!

Allah (swt) is telling us to do Tehkeek (Investigate)... the verse "O you who believe! Follow Allah; follow the Messenger and those of authority (Amr) amongst you." (Surah Al-Nisaa: 59)

"SO, ask the people (having the knowledge) of the Message, if you do not know". (16:43)(21 :7)


Some Muqallids quoted this verse to follow them "due to not have enough knowledge in these fields we have opted to follow one of those great people who had attained that distinguished mastery in this field, among whom is a Tabiee, Imaam Abu Hanifa (R.H.). Imam Shafie and all".. than why not follow Prophet (saww), the Sahabas (ra) who followed what was revealed and Tabiee (rh) themselves follow them and this is a chain and they were successful... Alhamdulillah... rather it tells you to investigate and if you are asking any scholar you are not blind following him cuz you believing in the Book of Allah (swt) and making it firm unlike like the muqallids cuz there are many matters which contradicts the Sunnah...

Allah (swt) says in Chapter 27 Verse 64 ....Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."

Again, what Allah (swt) is commanding us to show some truth... to investigate... If we remain blind followers than how we will answer the questions of Grave??? that person will only say "I don't know, what people use to say i use to do"... i don't know who My Lord is Who Prophet is and what is Islam.... I use to follow what majority of people use to follow.. that person did not investigate and this led him his own loss.... May Allah (swt) help us in answering those 3 questions which are most important which will be a decider....

If a person is out for gaining knowledge don't you think Allah (swt) will guide Him/Her??? by keeping a mentality like this means that Allah (swt) does not guide us... Nauzubillah... indeed, this is a challenge to Allah (swt) to say we'll remain blind followers as Allah (swt) says "He Guides whom He Pleases".... He removes whoever He Pleases from the depth of Darkness.... and He will keep them blind who don't want to believe... May Allah (swt) guide us all... Ameen...
This is all nonsense, because we all know we are talking about laymen here, like you. The proof for following a scholar is in the Quran:

Ask the people of Dhikr if you do not know.

The terminology we use for this is Taqleed, Istiftaa', Su'aal, etc. What terminology do you use, Hammy?
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
The only people who differs in opinions are the Muqallids....
The only people who differed with Taqleed in Fiqh are the Mu`tazilites of Baghdad, then you and Aziboy. Anybody in between? Tell us, please.


How can u conclude these Narrations by Imam Ahmad (rh) is authentic??? there are many things which are written on behalf of them which got nothing to do with Qur'an and Sunnah, like of Imam Abu Hanif (rh) than how can we believe if all Salafi scholars are of same opinion where to keep hand while praying???
And you think 'grave questions' will consist of where you put your hands in Salah!? I thank Allah that he did not test us with the intellectual affliction the two of you are suffering from.


When you ask a scholar about this he will tell you the chain of narrators and if not than why shall i believe in a Hadith which dosen't have any narrators attached? common sense???
ok we are making progress here. So when you as a common person who doesn't even know Arabic asks a scholar, then not only you demand a Hadith, but also its chain of narrators? That's a first.

Have you ever opened the Musannafs of Ibn Abu Shaybah and `Abd 'l-Razzaq? You'll find ruling upon rulings upon rulings without any evidences provided. Let's discard all of this, shall we?


No brother if you are doing taqleed of the shaikh who wrote the book than Hadrat Utham (ra) has also complied the Qur'an and presented it in a form of Book, before it was not... than obviously according to your understanding we are doing taqleed of Utham (ta)...
Your English is terrible, I don't understand what you are saying, nor do I want to understand.


I quoted as i found on hanafi fiqh website...
Why are you doing Taqleed of the Hanafi Fiqh wesbite!? I would never do Taqleed of any Hanafi Fiqh website. Why do you become a Muqallid when convenient?


I think you should go and ask some scholar regarding this rather sitting and refuting taqleed really.... go and ask Allah (swt) will help you In-sha-Allah....
Help from a scholar? Well that's what we did - we consulted S. al-`Uthaymeen, and we thank Aziboy that he provided the reference for us. Too bad that he deleted S. al-`Uthaymeen's fatwa from the opening post though!

So Hammy, can we take the understanding of Taqleed from S. al-`Uthaymeen? Yes or no?
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Sorry, we don't do Taqleed of Zakir Naik here, so there's no point quoting him. You might be his Muqallid - we aren't.

Why are you allowed to quote ZN, but Aziboy deletes the fatwa from S. al-`Uthaymeen? Is that fairness? Is that justice? You are violating the principles of justice and fairness that have been set out in the Quran - you are violating the Quran itself. What is going to happen to you when you face the 'grave questions', I wonder.
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
aftr Sahabas (ra) there were difference in opinion... but difference in opinion is altogether a different thing which is NOT TAQLEED....
So when the Sahabah differed in the inheritance of brothers in the presence of half-brothers, who should we follow? There isn't any Hadith. Tell us which opinion do you take:
- The brothers get inheritance
- The brothers don't get inheritance

I would like to understand whose opinion you would like to impose on the rest of the Ummah, and how you arrived at that conclusion. Your methodology is important. As if yet, you have failed to explain your method to us, because you are coming up with all this anti-Taqleed slogans yet you appear to doing the worst form of blind Taqleed - of your own ignorance.


... quoted by Imam Abu hanifa (rh) and why not we are "BLIND FOLLOWERS", isnt it!! that:

1) not approved is the prayer of a man behing a woman or a child - (Hidaya part 1 Imamat).
2) Women cannot pray in Jamaat, this is not approved (Hidaya babul Imamat)
3) You gift some one something and you also have the right to take that gift back. (Hidaya Kitabul Hiba)
Are you serious? Firstly, these are not Hanafi-only fatwas. Secondly, Hidayah is not a primary source in locating the Imam's opinions. Thirdly, you are still copy-pasting, which is Taqleed. Fourthly, you seem to be based in the Indian Sub-Continent who knows nothing about non-Hanafi Fiqh; try quoting Maliki, Shafi`i and Hanbali Fiqh for a change.


A sincere advise for both of my sister and brother... PLS DO NOT do Da'wah to a newly reverted Muslim, that person will surely leave Islam with confusion and hatred....
And what Da`wah are you going to give? That Taqleed is Haram? All what this poor new Muslim will end up doing is Taqleed of YOU and YOUR IGNORANCE! But if you are true to your call, you will tell the new Muslim not to even follow you, and just leave him/her with a copy of the Quran and Saheeh 'l-Bukhari - he/she should then be able to figure out how to read Salah from there, right?

See where your anti-Taqleed ignorance is landing you - in the pits of humiliation, ignorance, and further bigotry.
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
good job brother thariq applause for you, by imposing your beliefs on others which is totally irrelevant to Islam... you do blind following why you telling others to do the same??? why confusing them....??? The people supporting you all are in favour of Muqallids like to do blind follow... Indeed the above quoted Verse is an eye opener for you all, if not, than remember than the only guidance comes from Allah (swt), not by any "Muqallids".....
Nor does guidance come from you, a big Muqallid who loves to copy-paste. In fact, it is Haram for you to come here anyway and speak of your opinion, because if you want us to follow it, we will be doing your Taqleed, which is Haram for us. Log off insha'allah and you can save us from falling into your Taqleed.
 

Aziboy

Banned
How strange your faith is, you believe and understand our respected scholars' [ra] ruling whereas there has surely came to us the guidance from your Lord which you are denying in understanding?

You are only wasting your time here in misquoting the respected scholars, and designing our statements like Thariq did [I think u r the one] and spell checking.

you are never gonna attain this coz you are simply deceiving our fellow readers who I am sure are now confused as to whether they should do Taqleed or not?

Remember A Muslim revert is a person who perform enormous amount of study in Islam and then takes the Shahada and if they read your lame comments, they're only gonna laugh like we are doing always ;)

You do not worry about our Answers in Grave brother, We are Muslims, isn't it? and we should pray for eachother rather than throwing negative comments out of arrogance.

One thing is for sure, neither you nor we are going to agree upon what Taqleed means, coz we both have different under standing of this word...

You ask questions rather than answering one and rely much of the scholarly Quotes without even verifying it whether they are true or not?

You have the sense to understand the Scholars sayings whereas you are Stupid to understand Qur'an and Sunnah.

Go read more Usul books.. and log off
 

samiha

---------
Staff member
Assalaamu 'alaykum

Brother I'm not sure why you cannot edit yet - it should be applied much earlier. I'll look into it insha'Allah, but it should appear soon for you anyway if it's because of post limitations.

Even if these two are not learning much and decide to stay firmly upon their own mindsets, this is surely helping some, so may Allah reward you greatly.

Silence from the rest is certainly not agreement, as I'm sure they can read and discern emotion from facts. As for Hammy or whoever saying we are running away, this is certainly not true - rather my part in the involvement in the discussion became fruitless, so alhamdulillah I would rather learn myself here.

Brother HH, I had a question. After broaching this topic with some sisters, who also seem to be allergic to this word, they also began voicing similar concerns, somewhere along the lines of:

So if it's okay to take from any scholar (such as Hanafi ones) - then the way the women pray in the sub-continentals you're going to say is okay?! The way they pray like dogs and stick their arms to the ground and their rukoo' is not complete, and we know all of this is against the Qur'an and Sunnah but because they are following a scholar you are going to say it's okay?

Or what about if some person decides they want to do taqleed of Ibn Hazm's opinion on music?? You're going to say this is legitimate?

And they won't get past that point. That if you allow a layman to follow whichever person they find trustworthy and do taqleed of them, people will take 'strange opinions' from the scholars and follow them. I've replied to this in my own way, and I've read some of your threads before. But I thought I would ask personally. Ibn Hazm's can be said to be an odd opinion yes, but what about the prayer?

And some of this is the same rhetoric it seems Hammy and Aziboy are repeating. I don't know why this becomes such a big issue - but what's the best response to these?

Furthermore, these women in the subcontinental areas who have learned like this, the sisters feel a 'duty' to bring them out of their 'blindness' into Qur'an and Sunnah - but how much responsibility would you say is on the layman to contradict opinions they don't feel are correct towards other laymen - or what is the method in doing so?

I hope those make sense? I'd like to ask to clear the air, as I truly appreciate your presence here and would like to gain myself.

And lastly brother, do you feel translating taqleed as 'blind following' is the best choice? Sometimes I feel it doesn't do justice to the word, but confuses people instead and makes them adverse to being called 'blind' - even though in some senses it is true.
 

Aziboy

Banned
Wa Alaykum as salam,

Thank you so much sister for the great concern, looking forward to here from HH.

This is where exactly the confusion is
 

samiha

---------
Staff member
Don't get me wrong Aziboy, I am asking to learn; I am not asking because I agree with what you have said. If you had asked to learn in the same way, this discussion would have gotten much further. Instead you keep pushing yourself higher and higher and making absurd claims. This is why from the beginning I've asked you to humble yourself.

But if you want to learn, this is better for you - however, don't avoid the fact that you've been asked many questions, none of which you have answered.

One of the greatest traits of a Muslim is acknowledging when they don't know, and then humbling themselves to learning. So unless you want to be like the Baghdadi Mu`tazilites, drop the immaturity and sarcasm and be sincere.

I'm saying this because your attitude right now is an improvement, at least now you acknowledge there is confusion. Confusion can be cleared insha'Allah.

Just ask with the intention to learn.
 

Aziboy

Banned
I didn't get ya wrong sister, but you took me otherwise.

and wud appreciate if you could avoid comparing me with those sick Baghdadi Mu`tazilites.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Asalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Baraakaatuh,

Finally you proved that you are here to get some TRPs and spectators, cool keep it up, you are almost there.

Such a kid you are, Keep ur Aqeedah with you.

Salam Alaykum

Brother, please know that I have whatsoever no intentions of offending you or that I'm picking on you for fun. But your posts have shocked me!

I've always seen goodness in your posts and threads, and I've learned quite a lot from them, but your recent posts are not quite like you or like a Muslim. I can understand where you are coming from, but I cannot understand where all this rude childish behaviour is coming from. Even by my standards your posts are extremely rude, no, they are harsh.

You follow the Ahlal hadeeth and you come from the sub continent, it's understandable what you think of us, even though you are no different. For you, it's the famous one liner "Taqleed is the Religion of Shaytan" and we all here, are saying we are muqallids, spare yourself and a brother. By your standards we are following the religion of shaytan and are foolish nutheads. We don't believe in that signature line so we are fine with it.

All of us have our differences, all of us debate. Debates are good and fruitful but there is a way to debate. Your opponent is your "opponent" not your identical twin. Being rude and impolite is no way to debate. Please, do not take it personally, I don't wish to hurt your feelings. I just wasn't expecting to read this sort of posts from you directed towards some of our most respected members. To you, they may be attention seeking "Muqallids" or whatever, to us they are honorable brothers and sisters and we look up to them.

I hope I don't come across as offensive. I just want to remind you, when you write whatever you write, bear in mind that it stay for quite sometime, perhaps it'll be on the record even after you are dead. How many sins will be added to your account because many people have witnessed this behaviour and will witness sometime even after you are not alive. May Allaah have mercy on us all. I seek his refuge from such a miserable state of affairs.

BaraakAllaahu feek.

Aah!!! One more Muqallid.... busy in finding spell checks and based on scholarly opinions presenting his fatwas... how can even you think of asking questions to us Huh buddy? without answering our questions you think you'll get away so easily...!!! indeed i had exhausted my attempts in asking questions to Sister Samiha, brother thariq but they are just running hither thither to answer n finding excuses and coming up with whole bunch of scholarly article without cross check and now all of a sudden a new guy... with a new account... interesting...

Brother hammy, being a Muqallid is not an insult or an abuse. Abusive is your manner of addressing others.

And brother I'll request you not to talk about my sister with that "See I'm the Champ!!" tone. You may have no respect for your brothers simply because they disagree with you, but you will not pick on our sisters here. You are new and seem not to know how things are here, now that you've found out, I say this place is not for you. You are under no compulsion to be at TTI. If you cannot be polite and respect our brothers and sisters 'cos we are those "Shaytan Muqallids" please log out and find yourself a forum that suits you.

Otherwise, we'd love to have you with us.

BaraakAllaahu feek.
 
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