Is Jesus God?

ShahnazZ

Striving2BeAStranger
I find Islam really quite confusing, can you tell me what is required for the guarentee of salvation?

What is it about Islam that confuses you?

Salvation is guaranteed when a Muslim lives and dies by the Testimony of Truth: that there is no God but the One True God and that the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was His messenger.

- - - Updated - - -

What about sin?

What about it?
 

Rustandi

الفقير الى الله
What about sin?



Excerpt from Islamqa

...

As regards what you say about original sin, this matter needs to be approached from several angles.

Firstly: The Islamic belief concerning human sin is: the individual bears the responsibility for his own sin; no one else should bear this burden for him, nor should he bear the burden for anyone else. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden…” [Faatir 35:18]. This refutes the idea of original sin. If the father commits a sin, what fault is that of his children and grandchildren? Why should they bear the burden of a sin that someone else committed? The Christian belief that the descendents should bear the sin of their father is the essence of injustice. How can any sane person say that the sin should be carried down the centuries by all of humanity, or that the children, grandchildren and subsequent descendants should be tainted because of their father’s sin?

Secondly, making mistakes is a part of human nature. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Every son of Aadam is bound to commit sins…” (reported by al-Tirmidhi, 2423), but Allaah has not left man unable to do anything about the mistakes that he makes. He gives man the opportunity to repent, and so the hadeeth (words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) quoted above concludes: “…and the best of those who commit sins are those who repent.” The mercy of Allaah is clear in the teachings of Islam, as Allaah calls His servants (interpretation of the meaning): “Say, ‘O My servants who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allaah, verily Allaah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [al-Zumar 39:53]

This is human nature, and this is the solution to the problem of sin. But to make this human nature, which is bound to make mistakes, a barrier between the servant and his Lord which will prevent him from ever earning the pleasure of God, and to say that the only way to reach God is through His sending His (so-called) son down to earth to be humiliated and crucified while his father looks on, so that mankind could be forgiven, is an extremely odd idea. Just describing it sounds so unlikely that there is no longer any need to refute it in detail. Once, when discussing this issue with a Christian, I said, “If you say that God sent down His son to be crucified to atone for the sins of the people alive at his time and afterwards, what about those who had come before and died as sinners before the time of Christ, and had no opportunity to know about him and believe in the Crucifixion so that their sins might be forgiven?” All he could say was: “No doubt our priests have an answer to that!” Even if they do have an answer, it is bound to be concocted. There is no real answer.

If you really examine the Christian teaching on human sin with an open mind, you will see that they say that God sacrificed His only son to atone for the sins of mankind, and that this son was a god. If it was true that he was a god who was beaten, insulted and crucified, and died, then this doctrine contains elements of blasphemy because it accuses God of weakness and helplessness. Is God really incapable of forgiving the sins of all His servants with just one word? If He is Able to do all things (and the Christians do not dispute this fact), then why would He need to sacrifice His son in order to achieve the same thing? (Glorified and exalted be He far above what the wrongdoers say about Him!)

He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.” [al-An’aam 6:101 – interpretation of the meaning]

An ordinary man would not accept anyone harming his child; he would come to his defence, and would never hand him over to an enemy who would insult him, let alone leave him to face the worst kind of death. If this is the attitude of a mere created being, what then of the Creator?

Thirdly, the Christian doctrine of original sin has a negative effect because, as you have mentioned, it does not require any duties of man other than to believe that God sent His son to this earth to be crucified and to die to atone for the sins of mankind. Thus a person becomes a Christian and is to earn the pleasure of God and be admitted to heaven. Moreover, the Christian believes that everything that happened to the son of God was only to atone for his sins, past present and future, so there is no need to wonder why Christian societies have seen such an increase in murder, rape, robbery, alcoholism and other problems. After all, did not Christ die to atone for their sins, and haven’t their sins been wiped out, so why should they stop doing these things? Tell me, by your Lord, why do you sometimes execute murderers, or put criminals in jail, or punish them in other ways, if you believe that the criminal’s sins have all be atoned for and forgiven through the blood of Christ? Is this not a strange contradiction?

...

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/2690

I really suggest you go to the link and read the whole article.
 

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
First of all, congratulations on agreeing that the books are corrupted. You said these are Translations of Bible. However, what I do not understand is that how come in a translation it contains complete omission of verses, and included new verses which the original do not have. So you agree that we do not have the Original Gospel revealed by God, with us? Please answer.

No, that is correct, but the phrase "only son of God", or "begotten son of God" is exclusive to Jesus.

Wow! But the Bible says what you are saying is not truth.

Psalm 2:7 "...Jehovah had said to me (David), thou art my son, this day I have begotten thee."
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
First of all, congratulations on agreeing that the books are corrupted. You said these are Translations of Bible. However, what I do not understand is that how come in a translation it contains complete omission of verses, and included new verses which the original do not have. So you agree that we do not have the Original Gospel revealed by God, with us? Please answer.



Wow! But the Bible says what you are saying is not truth.

Psalm 2:7 "...Jehovah had said to me (David), thou art my son, this day I have begotten thee."

I didn't say the book are corrupted, I'll quote myself for clarity...
Iprofessshirk said:
The concept that the Bible has been corrupted by man, has been largely debunked over the past couple centurys. And there is a vast reasource of very old manuscripts with which we can verify the accuracy of very early writings. I'd also like to point out that I believe that only the original Greek and Hebrew texts were actually the "inspired word of God", the modern translations are only that: translations of the inspired word of God. Just like how you would likely say that English translations of the Koran are not the word of Allah, only the original Arabic version of the Koran is Allah's word.

In the same way, I believe the Koran has similar issues to deal with.
Abdullah ibn Masud's version of the original Koran had only 111 suras, and Ubayy's version had 116. There are many more reasons for skepticism, but I digress.
 

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
Yo did not answer to my questions. And you did not comment on the verse I quoted. Why?

First of all, congratulations on agreeing that the books are corrupted. You said these are Translations of Bible. However, what I do not understand is that how come in a translation it contains complete omission of verses, and included new verses which the original do not have. So you agree that we do not have the Original Gospel revealed by God, with us? Please answer.



Wow! But the Bible says what you are saying is not truth.

Psalm 2:7 "...Jehovah had said to me (David), thou art my son, this day I have begotten thee."
 

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
In the same way, I believe the Koran has similar issues to deal with.
Abdullah ibn Masud's version of the original Koran had only 111 suras, and Ubayy's version had 116. There are many more reasons for skepticism, but I digress.

You believe based on what? Please prove it!
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
Thanks for the link, I've already addresses some of these points in the previous thread. Basically, I don't see these references as explicit indicators of Muhammad, and they could very easily be attributed to the other prophets or even Jesus.

But these references are in the Bible. I don't understand how the Bible would be talking about "Prophets to come" and be meaning Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) when he was actually right there. The verses clearly point to a future tense. How is it so impossible that Jesus was the last Prophet in a long line of Prophets. It's been mentioned nowhere, but the fact that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is that last Prophet has been mentioned over and over again in the Quran.

See, we believe that all the Prophets starting from Adam to Noah, Ezekiel, Elias, Abraham, Issac, Ishmael, Moses, Jonus, Joseph, David, Solomon, Zachariah, John the Baptist, Jesus, Muhammad (peace on all of them) were mere men with the same message to mankind. Except that all their messages got lost or corrupted. The message never flourished in its original form, and hence more prophets kept coming. Finally, the last Prophet came and this time the message was not corrupted. And it remains uncorrupted till this day. I don't know what you mean when you say that there are different surahs in different versions, because that's not true. You can pick up a Quran from any place in the world and its word by word is the same. Millions of people have memorized the Quran by heart, and take any person from north or south, east or west, they're all the same Quran.

10) God can not be born.
Well, I understand why this is confusing. It would seem to our human minds that it might not be possible for God in His supreme nature to be born in human form (however, consider that humans were created in God's own image). But Islam gives no alternative explaination as to why Jesus had no father. Why do you believe God gave Jesus so much more power & wisdom than the other prophets? Something about Jesus was very unique, and Islam does not explain what that something is.

Actually all Prophets were assisted by God and hence had certain miracles. In the time of Moses, magic was prevalent, hence he was assisted by magic. In the time of Jesus, medicine was prevalent, hence he was aided with medical miracles. In the time of Muhammad, language, prose and poetry was at its peak, and hence the Quran's language is the most unique. There was a challenge in the Quran to the poets of the time - make one chapter like it. Couldn't do it. The shortest chapter of the Quran is 3 sentences long. But none of the eloquent poets of the time could do it.

So how do you mean Jesus was special and had more powers? He was one of the prophets and they were all given "powers."
 

sabs1164

AmatuLLaH
And what do u think about this verse from the bible?

"And the book delivered to him that is ot learned, saying, read this, i pray thee: And he saith, i am not learned." (isaiah 29:12)
King James version.


It may be noted that there were no Arabic bibles in existence in the 6th century of the Christian era when Muhammad(peace be upon Him) lived and preached! Besides he was absolutely unlettered and unlearned. No human had ever taught him a word. His teacher was his Creator-

source: 'what the bible says about Muhammad' by sheikh Deedat.
 

Shak78

Junior Member
I was born and raised as a Christian myself and the biggest issue I had with it was the Trinity, how one person could be three. I spent over 3 years studying Islam before embracing it. I went in with an open mind, the one thing you seem to not have. You are trying to find contradictions which you will find if you wish to look for them. Come back with an open heart and mind. We are taught to love the Prophet Jesus as he was born of a Virgin, but his message had been corrupted through the ages by man, the different Bibles, all re-written by man. The Holy Qu'ran was written down as it was heard when recited by the Prophet Muhammed and has remained unchanged since it was first written down. I have never seen anything to contrary. If you have proof of that please tell us, knowledge or Ilm is commanded upon us by the Prophet. We do not believe in Jesus (pbuh) being crucified, as he was so special to God, that God raised him up to Paradise before he could be crucified, that is how special Jesus (pbuh) is to Muslims. I do welcome you to ask more questions as they come to you, as people on here will be more then happy to answer them and I commend you on learning about another religion, at least you will not be fed the lies of the media about Islam and if anything, that is a victory for tolerance.
 

Hajjerr

He is Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram
Truth about Trinity

The three monotheistic religions – Judaism, Christianity, and Islam – all share one fundamental concept: belief in God as the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as “tawhid” in Islam, this concept of the Oneness of God was stressed by Moses in a Biblical passage known as the “Shema”, or the Jewish creed of faith:

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.” (Deuteronomy 6:4)

It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus, when he said:

“...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29)

Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again:

“And your God is One God: there is no God but He...” (Quran 2:163)

Christianity has digressed from the concept of the Oneness of God, however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during the fourth century. This doctrine, which continues to be a source of controversy both within and outside the Christian religion, is known as the Doctrine of the Trinity. Simply put, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – in one divine being.

If belief in the Trinity was such a necessary condition for being a Christian, why didn't Jesus teach and emphasize it to the Christians during his time? How were those followers of Jesus considered Christians without ever hearing the term Trinity?
Had the Trinity been the spinal cord of Christianity, Jesus would have emphasized it on many occasions and would have taught and explained it in detail to the people.

When controversy over the matter of the Trinity blew up in 318 between two church men from Alexandria – Arius, the deacon, and Alexander, his bishop – Emperor Constantine stepped into the fray.

Although Christian dogma was a complete mystery to him, he did realize that a unified church was necessary for a strong kingdom. When negotiation failed to settle the dispute, Constantine called for the first ecumenical council in Church history in order to settle the matter once and for all.

Six weeks after the 300 bishops first gathered at Nicea in 325, the doctrine of the Trinity was hammered out. The God of the Christians was now seen as having three essences, or natures, in the form of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.....

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/601/

In conclusion, we see that the doctrine of the Trinity is a concept conceived entirely by man; there is no sanction whatsoever from God to be found regarding the matter simply because the whole idea of a Trinity of divine beings has no place in monotheism. In the Quran, God’s Final Revelation to mankind, we find His stand quite clearly stated in a number of eloquent passages:
“... your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.” (Quran 18:110)
“... take not, with God, another object of worship, lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected.” (Quran 17:39)
– because, as God tells us over and over again in a Message that is echoed throughout ALL His Revealed Scriptures:
“... I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore, serve Me (and no other) ...” (Quran 21:92)


Quran may not contain the history details that one may expect, because was made easy and simple for everyone to understand it, memorize it and implement its teachings in every day life. Ofcourse, with a good intention, each individual can read and learn the whole history in paralel.
Quran is meant to correct the mistakes from the previous religious books and to show humans the easy, simple right path.

As a christian for 20+ years, i know how christians are confused, how people take the cross and icons as a worship simbol, when the very christianity says to not take in worship other gods but one God and to not create His image into objects.
Islam lays open in front of you everything you need for salvation, how to pray, when to pray, how to wash before prayer...how to give charity, how to treat your family, how to ponder over the enviroment and universe, how to research science, how to implement the law...for every level of our life there is a clear answer.

I think you may agree with me that many, many christians do not even own or read the Bible. So much, much of what they follow is simply tradition and not commitment for the Bible, i am sure that if the tradition was not so attractive and with deep rooths in their life, many sincere christians would embrace islam after a brief study.
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
:salam2:

A humble request to all my brothers and sisters here - let's please move this thread slowly and gradually. We don't want to overwhelm "iprofessshirk" with information. Let him take things step by step, and deal with a few posts at a time.
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
:salam2:

A humble request to all my brothers and sisters here - let's please move this thread slowly and gradually. We don't want to overwhelm "iprofessshirk" with information. Let him take things step by step, and deal with a few posts at a time.


You are right sister, I wrote my reply before I read your post , sorry
 

xAllahKnowsBestx

Junior Member
A humble request to all my brothers and sisters here - let's please move this thread slowly and gradually. We don't want to overwhelm "iprofessshirk" with information. Let him take things step by step, and deal with a few posts at a time.

True, that's what I was thinking.
 

Casiva

A Servant of Allah
Hello, there! Thank you for watching the video I provided you. Now I want to answer your arguments which haven’t been answered by others

9) There is no explicit Biblical reference claiming Jesus is God.
The claim in the video is that only by taking verses out of context can you show the Bible claims Jesus is God. I beg to differ, please read all of John chapter 13, there are several specific references to Jesus' divinity. When read in context, I find them quite convincing, and this is only one of many examples. Here is a list of many references: http://carm.org/jesus-god Please read them in context...

I have read them but neither of those verses have the exact sentence that “Jesus is God”. The one meant by those verses perhaps is Allah! But Islam has many exact sentences, the proofs, that "Allah is God". For example:


Such is ALLAH, your rightful Lord. What is there after the truth, except falsehood? How could you disregard all this? (10:32)



Surely, ALLAH is my Lord and your Lord; so serve Him alone. This is the straight way. (3:51)



8) No one has ever seen God
I struggle with this one as a Christian as well. Even before Jesus came on the seen, the Bible states that Moses saw God as one sees his brother. I don't understand how the Bible could make both claims, and there seems to be an inconsistancy to me. However, they are applying the truth to Jesus, and I believe the reference is only with God the Father, not Jesus. So it does not apply.

Thank you for admitting inconsistency of Bible. I want to add : what is the difference between God the Father and Jesus? Aren’t all of them one being? It is so confusing!

7) The doctrine of the trinity is not taught by Jesus or his followers.
There are many references, but I think this one is most compelling:

Matthew 28
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Please check here for more: http://carm.org/what-trinity

I'd also like to point out that I think Joshua is being pretty deceptive with his argument here. He says that the verse 1 John 5:7 has been thrown out of most modern translations....but I looked around and could not find a shred of evidance to support this claim, so I'm left a bit stumped on where he got that from, any more insight would be appreciated.

I watched this video for rather long so forget what exactly Brother Joshua said. I am watching the video again later but if you still remember what he said, please tell me so I can explain it further.
But I think the REAL Jesus (Islamic version) will NEVER teach trinity.


"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).


Also, Brother Joshua is not deceptive. I sought for verse 1 John 5:7 and found out that it INDEED had been removed in many modern Bible’s translations.


1 John 5:7 is probably one of the most controversial verses in the Bible. The reason it is so controversial is that all the modern translations, except the New King James, remove this verse. But, even the NKJV has a footnote with this verse saying the it is not found in the oldest Greek manuscripts. This could cause serious doubt in the reader's mind that this verse is the word of God. This verse was never controversial until the modern translations.


Read it fully here : http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pages/KJV/1-john-5-7-modern-version-controversy.htm

Also:


1 John 5:7 is the clearest verse in the Bible regarding the Holy Trinity, yet it is missing in many modern versions like the NIV, NASB, RSV, NRSV and Jehovah witness versions.


Read it fully here : http://brandplucked.webs.com/1john57.htm

5) Jesus claimed God's knowledge was greater than his own.
This seems to me to be the most powerful arguement, and I don't have any good answer. But I will definitely be looking into this more, thanks!

I know the truth will prevail sooner or later ;)

4) Jesus says He is not God
Joshua highlighted several verses to refute his claim on this, but I would argue that they are taken out of context. Read John 17:1-5...Joshua only picks out verse 3 (which really doesn't support his claim even out of context in my opinion), but when put in context, especially with verse 5, its a pretty solid arguement for Jesus' divinity.

I think Brother Joshua is right again. I have read the verse and it is like a prophet reporting to his God.


After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


The only wrong part is “your son” in verse 1. I think this is what happens if you mix the right and the wrong. Now, think of it straightly : why Jesus must “report” to his own self if he is God? God should be all-knowing!

3) The phrase "son of God" is not exculsively used for Jesus.
No, that is correct, but the phrase "only son of God", or "begotten son of God" is exclusive to Jesus.

I remember Brother Joshua said that in comparasion with Adam, Jesus’ creation is nothing. Adam is created without mother and father, while Jesus is created only without father. If anyone deserves the title “son of God”, it must be Adam! Can you explain why someone who doesn’t have father and mother can’t be “son of God” while someone who only doesn’t have father can be?
I think Brother xAllahKnowsBestx has pointed out this thing to you:

Actually, Islam does give an alternative explanation as to why Jesus (peace be upon him) had no father. Allaah says in the Qur'an:

"Verily, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was." (Qur'an 3:59)

If Jesus (peace be upon him) is considered the begotten son of God on the sole basis that he had no father, then how would we explain the creation of Adam (peace be upon him)? Does that mean Adam is the greater son of God because he had neither a father nor a mother? :)

But I don’t think you have answered it.

2) God cannot change.
I agree, God cannot change His nature, but that does not mean He cannot manifest Himself to us in various ways. I believe God is all powerful, and He can do this, just as it was promised in the old testament that He would.

Then why don’t you believe in Hinduism and Buddhism? They have many gods as well. The reason why I believe in Islam is because I believe God is only one and He is so great that can not share his power to anothers. If He needs something to be done, He will create a creature for that, i.e. angel, prophet, etc. If He wants to forgive all mankinds, of course He can do it in a blink of eye without so much effort. So why He must send “himself” for people?

1) God is the object of worship.
Again, I have to call bluff on Joshua. He picks Matthew 15:9 as his reasoning about this point. However, it is taken out of context, please read from verse 1 to verse 20 and see if you still agree with him. This one he claims is his strongest arguement, but to me it is the weakest one, built on straw.

I still agree with Brother Joshua :) He is right in quoting that sentence. Jesus has propecies that there will be some people who will “worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules”. See that "wrongly worship him". Does it mean that people should not worship him, but Allah?

I read it at http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/
I find it very tedious to read, and difficult to understand the context.

Try to read the Jesus’ parts in Quran. Here is the link about Jesus in Islam : http://islam.about.com/cs/jesus/f/jesus_quran.htm and Insha Allah your views will change :)
 

Casiva

A Servant of Allah
I have watched again the video and found what Brother Joshua said in number 7. So, basically he explained the history of trinity. He said that earlier Jesus' followers still went to the same place as Jews to pray. It proves that Jesus or his direct pupils didnt teach the followers the concept of christianity you know now. Because he brought the same message as Torah about one God. About matthew 28, here is the explanation:

The text referred to in the question is:

“Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee,
to the mountain where Jesus had told them
to go.
17When they saw him, they worshiped him;
but some doubted.
18Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All
authority in heaven and on earth has been
given to me.
19Therefore go and make disciples of all
nations, baptizing them in the name of the
Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit,
20and teaching them to obey everything I
have commanded you. And surely I am with
you always, to the very end of the age.’”
Matthew 28:16-20

Now let us discuss these verses which are
inserted into the text and are not original
to it.
Dr. Munqidh al-Saqqaar (may Allah guide
him) said:
The first criticism that may be directed
towards this passage is that despite its
importance, it is not mentioned in the
other three Gospels which all narrate the
story of Christ entering Jerusalem riding on
a donkey. Is his riding on the donkey more
important than mentioning the trinity,
which is not mentioned by anyone apart
from Matthew?
Indeed, the final chapter of the Gospel of
Mark mentions the advice that he gave to
the disciples, but it does not mention the
trinity that is mentioned only in Matthew,
as Mark says:
“He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and
preach the good news to all creation.
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be
saved, but whoever does not believe will be
condemned’”
Mark 16:15
This indicates that the idea of the trinity
has been inserted and is not original.
This passage is something that has been
added, according to the views of Western
scholars also:
1.Wells says: “It is not proof that the disciples of Christ embraced belief in the Trinity.”
2.Adolf Harnack says in his book The History of Dogma:
“This concept of trinity which speaks of the
“Father, Son and Holy Spirit” is something
strange that was never uttered on Christ’s
lips. It did not exist at the time of the
Apostles. … Moreover, it was never
mentioned until a later stage in the
development of Christian teachings and
Christ never spoke of it when he was
preaching and teaching after he rose from
the dead. Paul knew nothing of that either,
because he did not quote anything that he
attributed to Christ that urged spreading
Christianity among other nations.”
3.The fact that this idea was not an original
one is confirmed by Bible scholars and
historians of Christianity, as was stated by
Archbishop Cyril Salim Bustros -- the Roman
Catholic Archbishop of Baalbek and
environs -- who said:
“The Bible scholars think it most likely that
this injunction which the Gospel says was
spoken by Jesus did not come from Jesus
himself; rather it was the formula spoken to
prepare people for Baptism in Greek
society. Baptism in the early years of
Christianity was given ‘in the name of Jesus
Christ’ [Acts 2:38; 10:48] or ‘in the name of
the Lord Jesus’ [Acts 8:16; 19:5]. Hence
historians regard it as more likely that the
Trinitarian baptismal formula was a brief
summary for preparing for baptism. Thus
they went further and included with the
name of Jesus ‘God the Father and the Holy
Spirit’.”
Al-Laahoot al-Maseehi wa’l-Insaan al-
Mu‘aasir (Christian Divinity and Modern
Man), Archbishop Cyrille Salim Bustros,
2/48
4.When the historian Eusebius of Caesarea
quoted this passage from the Gospel of
Matthew, he did not mention therein “the
Father” or “the Holy Spirit”; rather he said:
“They went to all nations to spread the
Gospel, relying on the power of Christ who
said to them: ‘Go and teach all nations in
my name.’”
Tareekh al-Kaneesah (Ecclesiastical History),
Eusebius of Caesarea, p. 100
5.Another matter that confirms that is the
fact that in the recently-discovered Hebrew
manuscript of the Gospel of Matthew --
which was originally written in Hebrew --
this text is not present. This was regarded
by Dr G. Reckart, Professor of Theology at
the Apostolic Theological Bible College of
Kaufman, Texas, as definitive evidence that
this text has been added to the Gospel of
Matthew. He said: “The Catholic Church has
willingly lied about Matthew 28:19 and the
Catholics in general (including the Eastern
Orthodox) have lied to the world. Everyone
who was baptized with this false baptism
has died lost and without salvation.”

http://www.jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/
catholic/matthew-proof.html

Dr. Reckart tells us of a number of New
Testament texts which speak of baptism in
the name of Jesus Christ only, as in the
words of Peter in his famous sermon:
“Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the
forgiveness of your sins. And you will
receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”
Acts 2:38
The Samaritans baptized in the name of
John the Baptist. When they heard Paul,
“they were baptized into the name of the
Lord Jesus” (Acts 19:5). Paul did not ask
them to be baptized in the name of the
Father and Holy Spirit; he was content with
baptism in the name of Jesus.
6.The history of the disciples confirms that
they had no knowledge of this text, because
they did not go out to call people as
enjoined by Christ in this so-called text;
rather he instructed them to avoid calling
anyone except the Jews.
(a)“These twelve Jesus sent out with the
following instructions: ‘Do not go among the
Gentiles or enter any town of the
Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of
Israel’”
Matthew 10:5-6
(b)This is in accordance with historical
evidence going back to the second century
CE, which contradicts the so-called Great
Commission to call the nations and baptize
them in the name of the trinity, as the
church historian Apollonius said: “I learned
from the earlier generations that Christ,
before his ascension to heaven, instructed
his Apostles not to go far away from
Jerusalem for twelve years.”
(c)The disciples followed the instructions of
Christ and did not leave Palestine unless
circumstances forced them to do so. “Now
those who had been scattered by the
persecution in connection with Stephen
traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and
Antioch, telling the message only to
Jews” (Acts 11:19). If they had heard Christ
instructing them to call the nations in the
name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
they would have gone out in obedience to
his words, without any objection, to tell the
nations of his message.
(d)When Peter was summoned by the pagan
Cornelius to find out about Christianity from
him, then he became Christian at Peter’s
hands, the other disciples objected to that,
but he said to them: “He said to them: ‘You
are well aware that it is against our law for
a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit
him. But God has shown me that I should
not call any man impure or unclean’” (Acts
10:28). But he did not say that Christ had
instructed them to do that; rather he said:
“… us who ate and drank with him after he
rose from the dead. 42He commanded us to
preach to the people” (Acts 10:41-42), i.e.,
to the Jews only. When he went back to
Jerusalem, he was faced with more
criticism, “the circumcised believers
criticized him 3and said, ‘You went into the
house of uncircumcised men and ate with
them!’” (Acts 11:2-3). Then Peter began to
tell them of a dream he had seen that
justified his eating with the Gentiles (Acts
11:4-10). And he told them how the Holy
Spirit had come to him and told him to go:
“the Spirit told me to have no hesitation
about going with them and he also went
with me” (Acts 11:12).
After this detailed and convincing argument
from Peter, the disciples approved of his
going to the uncircumcised. “When they
heard this, they had no further objections
and praised God, saying, ‘So then, God has
granted even the Gentiles repentance unto
life’” (Acts 11:18).
Based on that, all these people, including
Peter, knew nothing about the text of
Matthew which enjoins baptizing all nations
in the name of the Father, Son and Holy
Spirit. Why is that? Because Christ did not
say it and they did not hear it. If Christ had
said it, there would not have been any
need for blame and rebuke.
7.Moreover, the Disciples agreed with Paul
that he would call the Gentiles while they
would call the circumcised, i.e. the Jews.
Paul says:
“On the contrary, they saw that I had been
entrusted with the task of preaching the
gospel to the Gentiles [lit. the
uncircumcised], just as Peter had been to
the Jews [lit. the circumcised]. 8For God,
who was at work in the ministry of Peter as
an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in
my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles.
9James, Peter[ c ] and John, those reputed to
be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right
hand of fellowship when they recognized
the grace given to me. They agreed that we
should go to the Gentiles, and they to the
Jews”
Galatians 2:7-9.
So how could they go against the
commandment of Christ -- if the text in
Matthew is true -- and refrain from calling
the nations, then leave that to Paul and
Barnabas only?
All these facts prove the text in Matthew to
be false and confirm that it is a fabricated
text that cannot be soundly attributed to
Christ.


Read here for more : http://islamqa.info/en/ref/148661

So, I think Brother Joshua is right again ;)
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
Excerpt from Islamqa



http://islamqa.info/en/ref/2690

I really suggest you go to the link and read the whole article.
I'm regretting bringing up a different subject. I think I'm going to refrain from addressing this issue here. I do believe it is very relevant, but it deserves its own thread. Lets come back to it when we finish the discussion at hand, as to stay of topic.....sorry, my fault.

Yo did not answer to my questions. And you did not comment on the verse I quoted. Why?
Sorry, I was short on time. This verse is referring to Jesus, not David....it is prophetic in nature. Watch this video, it is a bit cheesey, but it makes valid points on the subject:
[video=youtube;R6stIGtYexI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6stIGtYexI[/video]

You believe based on what? Please prove it!
Muhammad said that Abdullah Ibn Masud was a reliable source:
Narrated Masruq: Abdullah bin Mas'ud was mentioned before Abdullah bin Amr who said, "That is a man I still love, as I heard the Prophet (saw) saying, 'Learn the recitation of the Qur'an from four: from Abdullah bin Mas'ud - he started with him - Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Mu'adh bin Jabal and Ubai bin Ka'b". (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 5, p.96).
The current version of the Koran is the version which was put together by Zaid. Ibn Masud said it is not reliable:
''The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him (Prophet) whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit. By Him besides Whom there is no god! I learnt more than seventy surahs from the lips of the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, while Zayd Ibn Thabit was a youth, having two locks and playing with the youth". (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p.444).
You don't see a problem with that?

This is yet one example, there are many others...http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Corruption_of_the_Qur'an

But these references are in the Bible. I don't understand how the Bible would be talking about "Prophets to come" and be meaning Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) when he was actually right there. The verses clearly point to a future tense. How is it so impossible that Jesus was the last Prophet in a long line of Prophets. It's been mentioned nowhere, but the fact that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is that last Prophet has been mentioned over and over again in the Quran.

See, we believe that all the Prophets starting from Adam to Noah, Ezekiel, Elias, Abraham, Issac, Ishmael, Moses, Jonus, Joseph, David, Solomon, Zachariah, John the Baptist, Jesus, Muhammad (peace on all of them) were mere men with the same message to mankind. Except that all their messages got lost or corrupted. The message never flourished in its original form, and hence more prophets kept coming. Finally, the last Prophet came and this time the message was not corrupted. And it remains uncorrupted till this day. I don't know what you mean when you say that there are different surahs in different versions, because that's not true. You can pick up a Quran from any place in the world and its word by word is the same. Millions of people have memorized the Quran by heart, and take any person from north or south, east or west, they're all the same Quran.

Actually all Prophets were assisted by God and hence had certain miracles. In the time of Moses, magic was prevalent, hence he was assisted by magic. In the time of Jesus, medicine was prevalent, hence he was aided with medical miracles. In the time of Muhammad, language, prose and poetry was at its peak, and hence the Quran's language is the most unique. There was a challenge in the Quran to the poets of the time - make one chapter like it. Couldn't do it. The shortest chapter of the Quran is 3 sentences long. But none of the eloquent poets of the time could do it.

So how do you mean Jesus was special and had more powers? He was one of the prophets and they were all given "powers."
These passages are taken out of context. I do believe that Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible though, just not in a way agreeable to Muslims:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/muhammad_in_bible.htm

And what do u think about this verse from the bible?

"And the book delivered to him that is ot learned, saying, read this, i pray thee: And he saith, i am not learned." (isaiah 29:12)
King James version.

It may be noted that there were no Arabic bibles in existence in the 6th century of the Christian era when Muhammad(peace be upon Him) lived and preached! Besides he was absolutely unlettered and unlearned. No human had ever taught him a word. His teacher was his Creator-

source: 'what the bible says about Muhammad' by sheikh Deedat.

I already addressed this passage in the other thread, so I'll quote me response:

Iprofessshirk said:
Concerning Isaiah 29:12:
If you add in verse 11 and read the whole passage in context; it is not a direct prophecy, just simple truth.
Please keep Biblical references in context, and I will give the Koran the same respect.

This is the passage that Jesus quotes in Mark 7:6-7

Mark 7:6-7 said:
6 And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
7 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

8 You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.”

I was born and raised as a Christian myself and the biggest issue I had with it was the Trinity, how one person could be three. I spent over 3 years studying Islam before embracing it. I went in with an open mind, the one thing you seem to not have. You are trying to find contradictions which you will find if you wish to look for them. Come back with an open heart and mind. We are taught to love the Prophet Jesus as he was born of a Virgin, but his message had been corrupted through the ages by man, the different Bibles, all re-written by man. The Holy Qu'ran was written down as it was heard when recited by the Prophet Muhammed and has remained unchanged since it was first written down. I have never seen anything to contrary. If you have proof of that please tell us, knowledge or Ilm is commanded upon us by the Prophet. We do not believe in Jesus (pbuh) being crucified, as he was so special to God, that God raised him up to Paradise before he could be crucified, that is how special Jesus (pbuh) is to Muslims. I do welcome you to ask more questions as they come to you, as people on here will be more then happy to answer them and I commend you on learning about another religion, at least you will not be fed the lies of the media about Islam and if anything, that is a victory for tolerance.

I am a seeker of truth; my heart and mind are open. I'm actively seeking reasonable arguments, I've already conceded some (please review the thread).

Truth about Trinityhttp://www.islamreligion.com/articles/601/

In conclusion, we see that the doctrine of the Trinity is a concept conceived entirely by man; there is no sanction whatsoever from God to be found regarding the matter simply because the whole idea of a Trinity of divine beings has no place in monotheism. In the Quran, God’s Final Revelation to mankind, we find His stand quite clearly stated in a number of eloquent passages:
“... your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.” (Quran 18:110)
“... take not, with God, another object of worship, lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected.” (Quran 17:39)
– because, as God tells us over and over again in a Message that is echoed throughout ALL His Revealed Scriptures:
“... I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore, serve Me (and no other) ...” (Quran 21:92)


Quran may not contain the history details that one may expect, because was made easy and simple for everyone to understand it, memorize it and implement its teachings in every day life. Of course, with a good intention, each individual can read and learn the whole history in paralel.
Quran is meant to correct the mistakes from the previous religious books and to show humans the easy, simple right path.

As a christian for 20+ years, i know how christians are confused, how people take the cross and icons as a worship simbol, when the very christianity says to not take in worship other gods but one God and to not create His image into objects.
Islam lays open in front of you everything you need for salvation, how to pray, when to pray, how to wash before prayer...how to give charity, how to treat your family, how to ponder over the enviroment and universe, how to research science, how to implement the law...for every level of our life there is a clear answer.

I think you may agree with me that many, many christians do not even own or read the Bible. So much, much of what they follow is simply tradition and not commitment for the Bible, i am sure that if the tradition was not so attractive and with deep rooths in their life, many sincere christians would embrace islam after a brief study.

I agree that many "Christians" do not read the Bible, most of whom I do not consider real Christians...its not good enough to call oneself a Christian.

John 13:35 RSV said:
"By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
James 2:18-23 RSV said:
18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.

:salam2:

A humble request to all my brothers and sisters here - let's please move this thread slowly and gradually. We don't want to overwhelm "iprofessshirk" with information. Let him take things step by step, and deal with a few posts at a time.

Thanks, I only have so much time for this discussion...as much as I am enjoying it. :)

I have read them but neither of those verses have the sentence that “Jesus is God”. The one meant by those verses perhaps is Allah! But Islam has many sentences, the proofs, that "Allah is God".

John 13 RSV said:
Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. 2 And during supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him, 3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God, 4 rose from supper, laid aside his garments, and girded himself with a towel. 5 Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded. 6 He came to Simon Peter; and Peter said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?” 7 Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not know now, but afterward you will understand.” 8 Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.” 9 Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” 10 Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet,[a] but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not every one of you.” 11 For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “You are not all clean.”

12 When he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, and resumed his place, he said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you. 16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant[c] is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. 18 I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ 19 I tell you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he. 20 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives any one whom I send receives me; and he who receives me receives him who sent me.”

21 When Jesus had thus spoken, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” 22 The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. 23 One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was lying close to the breast of Jesus; 24 so Simon Peter beckoned to him and said, “Tell us who it is of whom he speaks.” 25 So lying thus, close to the breast of Jesus, he said to him, “Lord, who is it?” 26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give this morsel when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 Then after the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” 28 Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. 29 Some thought that, because Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the feast”; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30 So, after receiving the morsel, he immediately went out; and it was night.

31 When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of man glorified, and in him God is glorified; 32 if God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me; and as I said to the Jews so now I say to you, ‘Where I am going you cannot come.’ 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

36 Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered, “Where I am going you cannot follow me now; but you shall follow afterward.” 37 Peter said to him, “Lord, why cannot I follow you now? I will lay down my life for you.” 38 Jesus answered, “Will you lay down your life for me? Truly, truly, I say to you, the cock will not crow, till you have denied me three times.


I have quoted the passage here for others to read without external links. I highlighted the phrases whch support Jesus's divinity (in my opinion).

Thank you for admitting inconsistency of Bible. I want to add : what is the difference between God the Father and Jesus? Aren’t all of them one being? It is so confusing!

I believe the original Greek & Hebrew Bible is inerrant in its teachings. But I do not claim it is perfect in all it says. For instance, Jesus gave a parable about a mustard seed where He claims the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds...is that a correct statement? No, absolutely not. But Jesus was not giving a lecture on horticulture, he was teaching a truth about the Kingdom of Heaven. He was relating to those He was teaching in terms they could comprehend.

The difference between Jesus and God the Father is simply the form in which God is manifest. They are the same God, yet different persons, and became human identify with us, and to allow us to better understand Him.

I watched this video for rather long so forget what exactly Brother Joshua said. I am watching the video again later but if you still remember what he said, please tell me so I can explain it further.
But I think the REAL Jesus (Islamic version) will NEVER teach trinity.

Also, Brother Joshua is not deceptive. I sought for verse 1 John 5:7 and found out that it INDEED had been removed in many modern Bible’s translations.

1 John 5:7 is probably one of the most controversial verses in the Bible. The reason it is so controversial is that all the modern translations, except the New King James, remove this verse. But, even the NKJV has a footnote with this verse saying the it is not found in the oldest Greek manuscripts. This could cause serious doubt in the reader's mind that this verse is the word of God. This verse was never controversial until the modern translations.


Read it fully here : http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pages/KJV/1-john-5-7-modern-version-controversy.htm

Also:

1 John 5:7 is the clearest verse in the Bible regarding the Holy Trinity, yet it is missing in many modern versions like the NIV, NASB, RSV, NRSV and Jehovah witness versions.

Read it fully here : http://brandplucked.webs.com/1john57.htm

I had a bit more time to research today and your links were helpful. I was pretty hasty with my "cannot find a shred of evidance"...that comment based based on what I found quickly via "BibleGateway.com"...the verse is not missing?!? After more research, I agree it is controversial, but definitely has not been removed:

1 John 5:7 said:
ASV - "And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth."
AMP - "So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One."
CEV - "In fact, there are three who tell about it"
ESV - "For there are three that testify"
EXB - "So [or For] there are three •witnesses [who testify/bear witness]"
KJV - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
NASB - "For there are three that testify"
NET - "For there are three that testify"
NIV - "For there are three that testify"
NKJV - "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one"
NLT - "So we have these three witnesses"
NRSV - "There are three that testify"
RSV - "And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth"
TNIV - "For there are three that testify"
YLT - "because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one"

The only one above which argees with Joshua is the RSV. How does Islam expalin the "Spirit"? And even there, the verse is present, its just translated differently. Also, the manuscripts which contain this verse are predated by the doctrine of the trinity, check out this short video (edit - video in next post, apparently I can only post 1 video max per post).

I think Brother Joshua is right again. I have read the verse and it is like a prophet reporting to his God.

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


The only wrong part is “your son” in verse 1. I think this is what happens if you mix the right and the wrong. Now, think of it straightly : why Jesus must “report” to his own self if he is God? God should be all-knowing!

Again, in human form, he acted like a human to help us know Him even better. Its funny to me the atheist argument of "God's hiddeness"...they argue that if God is real, why doesn't He show himself....my response is that HE DID!!! :D

I remember Brother Joshua said that in comparison with Adam, Jesus’ creation is nothing. Adam is created without mother and father, while Jesus is created only without father. If anyone deserves the title “son of God”, it must be Adam! Can you explain why someone who doesn’t have father and mother can’t be “son of God” while someone who only doesn’t have father can be?
I think Brother xAllahKnowsBestx has pointed out this thing to you:

But I don’t think you have answered it.

Whoops, sorry I missed it. But, this only explains how, it does not explain why? Don't you see how this makes Jesus unique from all the other prophets, why did God do that?

Then why don’t you believe in Hinduism and Buddhism? They have many gods as well. The reason why I believe in Islam is because I believe God is only one and He is so great that can not share his power to anothers. If He needs something to be done, He will create a creature for that, i.e. angel, prophet, etc. If He wants to forgive all mankinds, of course He can do it in a blink of eye without so much effort. So why He must send “himself” for people?

Whoah, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine of the trinity. It teaches that God is one, manifest to humans in three persons. This is fundamentally different from pantheism and polytheism!

I still agree with Brother Joshua :) He is right in quoting that sentence. Jesus has propecies that there will be some people who will “worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules”. See that "wrongly worship him". Does it mean that people should not worship him, but Allah?

Matthew 15 RSV said:
Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God,[a] he need not honor his father.’ 6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:

8 ‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”


10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” 13 He answered, “Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” 15 But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” 16 And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and so passes on?[c] 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”


How can you agree with Joshua...Joshua's point is that Jesus is rebuking them for worshiping Him (Jesus)!?!? He is clearly not doing that, He is quoting from Isaiah, telling them that they were fulfilling Isaiah's prophecy in their contemporary way of life. He is saying; "look at the way you have corrupted the teaching of old, and are living by your own perverse set of rules....you need to retrain your focus on God!" - paraphrased by me. So I stand by my claim that Joshua has taken it out of context and interprets it incorrectly.

Try to read the Jesus’ parts in Quran. Here is the link about Jesus in Islam : http://islam.about.com/cs/jesus/f/jesus_quran.htm and Insha Allah your views will change :)

Thanks for the link, and all of your thoughtful responses :)
Joy and Peace! - Iprofessshirk
 
Top