Is Jesus God?

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
Sorry, I was short on time. This verse is referring to Jesus, not David....it is prophetic in nature. Watch this video, it is a bit cheesey, but it makes valid points on the subject:
[video=youtube;R6stIGtYexI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6stIGtYexI[/video]


Muhammad said that Abdullah Ibn Masud was a reliable source:

The current version of the Koran is the version which was put together by Zaid. Ibn Masud said it is not reliable:

You don't see a problem with that?

This is yet one example, there are many others...http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Corruption_of_the_Qur'an

First let me comment on that Video you posted. It very well tries to turn the upside down by saying the verse speaks not about David )peace and blessings be upon him), but later says it is a possibility. If David proclaimed the words of God in this verse that Jesus to be His son (na'oodhu billah), it is the only Logical possibility that he mention the name of Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) saying, "Jesus is my son", not "Thou art my son". The video says we Muslims believe in the Wahy, the revelation which was revealed to David (peace and blessings be upon him), called Zabur (Psalms). And it tried to say we Muslims have either of two choice, which is a bit funny for me really. Infact, I have told you in the very beginning of our conversation here that we Muslims DO NOT believe the current Bibles you have to be the word of God. I hope I made it very clear again.

Narrated Masruq: Abdullah bin Mas'ud was mentioned before Abdullah bin Amr who said, "That is a man I still love, as I heard the Prophet (saw) saying, 'Learn the recitation of the Qur'an from four: from Abdullah bin Mas'ud - he started with him - Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Mu'adh bin Jabal and Ubai bin Ka'b". (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 5, p.96).

Please do not try to mention the authority of Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud (radiyallahu 'anh) to the Muslims. It is same as selling dates to Basarah (a city in Iraq). We believe he is among the most pious among Muslims. However, I do not see any proof on your claim in this Narration. You said Ibn Mas'ud (radiyallahu 'anh)'s version of Quran had 111 Surahs and that of Ubayy bin Ka'b has 116. Just produce proof if you are truthful. Allah says in Quran, "And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."" (Surah (Chapter) 2, Verse 111)

''The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him (Prophet) whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit. By Him besides Whom there is no god! I learnt more than seventy surahs from the lips of the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, while Zayd Ibn Thabit was a youth, having two locks and playing with the youth". (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p.444).

The Companions of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) who hadn't heard of the Prophet's hadith that the Qur'an is revealed in different styles did become confused, but when they were told of the hadith - they all accepted and submitted to the truth. There are more narrations like this from other Companions too. But its all based on the same issue.

This is one of the variations of the 7 Ahrufs [seven forms of recitation]. And that this variation can take place (with the "addition or subtraction of letters or words" - then he gives the example of the verse quoted by Ibn Mas'ud and Abu Al-Dardaa'.), and it is valid.

The different forms of recitals are well known amongst the Muslims, since Allah's Messenger requested Jibreel to send down the Qur'an in more dialects so it was easy for his ummah [including the different tribes of the Arabs who had different forms of recital.] They were 7, thats why its known as the Sab'ah Ahruf (Seven forms [of recital].

The evidence for that is the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Jibreel taught me one style and I reviewed it until he taught me more, and I kept asking him for more and he gave me more until finally there were seven styles.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3047; Muslim, 819)

Therefore,
The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him (Prophet) whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit. By Him besides Whom there is no god! I learnt more than seventy Surahs from the lips of the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, while Zayd Ibn Thabit was a youth, having two locks and playing with the youth".
is not said by Ibn Mas'ud regarding the acceptance of Quran, but about the ways of Recitation. For example; the Pronunciation of Thermometer in India and US is completely different, but the Indian and the US knows what it is.

Therefore he said those words to simply mean that he prefers the form of recital he himself heard directly from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). It doesn't necessarily mean that he viewed Zayd b. Thabit's recital as incorrect.

Now, please produce your proof that Ibn Mas'ud's Version of Quran has 111 Chapters and that of Ubayy Ibn Ka'b has 116.
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
First let me comment on that Video you posted. It very well tries to turn the upside down by saying the verse speaks not about David )peace and blessings be upon him), but later says it is a possibility. If David proclaimed the words of God in this verse that Jesus to be His son (na'oodhu billah), it is the only Logical possibility that he mention the name of Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) saying, "Jesus is my son", not "Thou art my son". The video says we Muslims believe in the Wahy, the revelation which was revealed to David (peace and blessings be upon him), called Zabur (Psalms). And it tried to say we Muslims have either of two choice, which is a bit funny for me really. Infact, I have told you in the very beginning of our conversation here that we Muslims DO NOT believe the current Bibles you have to be the word of God. I hope I made it very clear again.
I especially appreciated the first couple minutes of the video....the rest was uneccessary IMO (which is what I was referring to as "cheesey"). The fact of the matter is, when you dissect the verse it clearly points to Jesus. No prophecy was given about anyone by name in the Bible, I'm not sure why you would expect this instance to be any different.

Please do not try to mention the authority of Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud (radiyallahu 'anh) to the Muslims. It is same as selling dates to Basarah (a city in Iraq). We believe he is among the most pious among Muslims. However, I do not see any proof on your claim in this Narration. You said Ibn Mas'ud (radiyallahu 'anh)'s version of Quran had 111 Surahs and that of Ubayy bin Ka'b has 116. Just produce proof if you are truthful. Allah says in Quran, "And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."" (Surah (Chapter) 2, Verse 111)

The Companions of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) who hadn't heard of the Prophet's hadith that the Qur'an is revealed in different styles did become confused, but when they were told of the hadith - they all accepted and submitted to the truth. There are more narrations like this from other Companions too. But its all based on the same issue.

This is one of the variations of the 7 Ahrufs [seven forms of recitation]. And that this variation can take place (with the "addition or subtraction of letters or words" - then he gives the example of the verse quoted by Ibn Mas'ud and Abu Al-Dardaa'.), and it is valid.

The different forms of recitals are well known amongst the Muslims, since Allah's Messenger requested Jibreel to send down the Qur'an in more dialects so it was easy for his ummah [including the different tribes of the Arabs who had different forms of recital.] They were 7, thats why its known as the Sab'ah Ahruf (Seven forms [of recital].

The evidence for that is the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Jibreel taught me one style and I reviewed it until he taught me more, and I kept asking him for more and he gave me more until finally there were seven styles.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3047; Muslim, 819)

Therefore, is not said by Ibn Mas'ud regarding the acceptance of Quran, but about the ways of Recitation. For example; the Pronunciation of Thermometer in India and US is completely different, but the Indian and the US knows what it is.

Therefore he said those words to simply mean that he prefers the form of recital he himself heard directly from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). It doesn't necessarily mean that he viewed Zayd b. Thabit's recital as incorrect.

Now, please produce your proof that Ibn Mas'ud's Version of Quran has 111 Chapters and that of Ubayy Ibn Ka'b has 116.

Concerning all of this; I never claimed to have proof of anything. These arguements are well know, and I'm not claiming to have any new information. My point was that there are difficulties in the Bible which can be debated both ways, and in the same way there are difficulties in the Koran which can be debated both ways. This is not the time or place for those debates, I'd like to keep this thread on topic, which is the debate about Jesus's divinity.

I'm also like to refute the Koran's claim that my vain desires cause me to say that only Christians will go to heaven. I simply believe it is the truth, whether I like it or not. BTW I don't like it, I wish everyone would go to heaven. It seems to me that God could have done something different to fix this problem, but this is also a topic for another time/place.
 

sabs1164

AmatuLLaH
peace..

As an ex-christian, im still trying to figure out how 1+1+1=1??????

So u believe in trinity? Still wondering why it was taken out from other bibles...? Wait a minute! Some Christian scholars said it was fabricated.
Why would GOD confuse HIS creation so much?

Im sorry but a few things about Christianity don't make sense. eg God looking for Adam in heaven after he ate the fruit?

MY ALLAH is all-Seeing.
and ALLAH knows best.

peace be upon you.
 

Casiva

A Servant of Allah
I have quoted the passage here for others to read without external links. I highlighted the phrases whch support Jesus's divinity (in my opinion).

What I found even contradicts with what you expected. Look at verse 16:

16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a
servant[c] is not greater than his master;
nor is he who is sent greater than he who
sent him.


While in John 17 : 3, Jesus claims that God sent him:

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

So, in conclusion, Jesus is not greater than the one who sent him! How could this be when they are one in your belief system? Did you see inconsistency here? I did!

I believe the original Greek & Hebrew Bible is inerrant in its teachings. But I do not claim it is perfect in all it says. For instance, Jesus gave a parable about a mustard seed where He claims the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds...is that a correct statement? No, absolutely not. But Jesus was not giving a lecture on horticulture, he was teaching a truth about the Kingdom of Heaven. He was relating to those He was teaching in terms they could comprehend.

The difference between Jesus and God the Father is simply the form in which God is manifest. They are the same God, yet different persons, and became human identify with us, and to allow us to better understand Him.

Thank you again for admitting that bible is not perfect, even pointed out to the specific part. Did you know that Jesus' language is Aramaic? So why did you believe most in translation in Greek or Hebrew? And did you know that Bible in Aramaic found in Turkey and it said about the coming of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Also, did you know that unlike yours, Quran is perfect?There is no scientific errors in it and it is compatible with nowadays science. You can read about that here :

www.quranandscience.com

In addition, I think it does not make sense for a God to be human because as I have stated before, if He wants something, He can do it easily without many efforts. God becomes human is like a weak type of God for me. What for does He suffer if He is capable of doing ANYTHING?

I had a bit more time to research today and your links were helpful. I was pretty hasty with my "cannot find a shred of evidance"...that comment based based on what I found quickly via "BibleGateway.com"...the verse is not missing?!? After more research, I agree it is controversial, but definitely has not been removed:

The only one above which argees with Joshua is the RSV. How does Islam expalin the "Spirit"? And even there, the verse is present, its just translated differently. Also, the manuscripts which contain this verse are predated by the doctrine of the trinity, check out this short video (edit - video in next post, apparently I can only post 1 video max per post).

Are you sure that the site is reliable? Because many people reported in various sites that 1 John 5: 7 is missing! Besides those sites I gave you, this person also reported that that verse was lost in his bible.

I remember a youth pastor asking my youth
group once to try to find verses in the Bible
that would support the doctrine of the
Trinity...and I remember discovering to my
shock and dismay that the verses that
I remembered from my KJV were not to be
found in my NIV in 1 John 5:7-8 that would
seem to clearly point to the Trinity (of
course there are MANY other passages that
support this doctrine, but this was one of
those that came to my mind which should
have been an "easy" one in support of the
doctrine...so much for that...or was it).
The verses read as follows in the NKJV (the
bold is not included in most of the modern
versions): "For there are three that bear
witness in heaven: the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Spirit; and these three are
one. 8 And there are three that bear
witness on earth: the Spirit, the water,
and the blood; and these three agree as
one." (1 John 5:7-8)
So what happened that half of verse seven
and half of verse eight are missing in most
of the modern versions (ESV, NAB, NAS,
NET, NIV, NLT, NJB, NRSV, etc.) with the
exception of those in the King James
tradition?


Read it here : http://lost_translation_3a_why_arent_these_verses_my_bibl e_1_john_57_8

Even wikipedia supports that statement:

Although many traditional Bible
translations, most notably the
Authorized King James Version (KJV),
contain the Comma, modern Bible
translations from the Critical Text such
as the New International Version
(NIV), the New American Standard
Bible (NASB), the English Standard
Version (ESV), the New Revised
Standard Version (NRSV) tend to either
omit the Comma entirely, or relegate
it to the footnotes.


Read here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

And many more, just type in search engine and so many results will appear. If only muslims who claim that, I understand if you disbelieve me. But even the christians themselves reported the same thing! So,clearly Brother Joshua didn't make up that issue
Here is explanation about spirit in Islam: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_(Islam)

Again, in human form, he acted like a human to help us know Him even better. Its funny to me the atheist argument of "God's hiddeness"...they argue that if God is real, why doesn't He show himself....my response is that HE DID!!! :D

If so, then Jesus can only state, "People, I am your God in human form. Here is the way to worship me. Follow me." But where in the bible that thing exists? If God wants example, He will provide prophet for that matter. Didn't it the thing He do all this time, sending prophets until the sealed of the prophet, Muhammad? So why He must bother to descend Himself if He can create prophet for that purpose? Why did He need another prophets if He can descend directly? Why didn't He descend at the beginning of time as example of human?
Trinity is way too confusing and like Brother above stated, God must not want his followers to be confused. Atheism has been debunked by Islam many times and many of them have accepted Islam without the need of seeing God, alhamdulillah.

Whoops, sorry I missed it. But, this only explains how, it does not explain why? Don't you see how this makes Jesus unique from all the other prophets, why did God do that?

No, it only explains that Allah is capable of doing anything. If he can create Adam without father and mother then not claiming him as "his son" then why can't He do the similiar thing to Jesus? Sorry, it does not make sense if God, even in human form, is less special than the others. I remember Brother Joshua said that christian concept related with patriarchy, where father side is always greater than mother side. Just because Jesus has no father, some people immediately claimed that god was the father because He is great. Naudzubillah. Muslims know here that Allah can create miracle.
If you don't have any other arguments as back up, then surely I also can make my own religion, saying that Noah is son of god, and when someone asks why, just say "because he is special" without many other arguments. Will you believe it?

Whoah, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine of the trinity. It teaches that God is one, manifest to humans in three persons. This is fundamentally different from pantheism and polytheism!

Did you know that Hinduism also believe in one God but manifest in three : Brahma, Siva, and Visnu? They even have "trimurti" concept which is basically same with "trinity"! So I don't think christianity is that different with polytheism because hinduism also believe that God is one but manifested into many things, i.e.other gods!

Read about trimurti here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti

How can you agree with Joshua...Joshua's point is that Jesus is rebuking them for worshiping Him (Jesus)!?!? He is clearly not doing that, He is quoting from Isaiah, telling them that they were fulfilling Isaiah's prophecy in their contemporary way of life. He is saying; "look at the way you have corrupted the teaching of old, and are living by your own perverse set of rules....you need to retrain your focus on God!" - paraphrased by me. So I stand by my claim that Joshua has taken it out of context and interprets it incorrectly.

No, Brother Joshua is right. Even in your interpretation, it can be said that Jesus himself was angry because there were some people who mislead his teachings. Now, why there must be word "wrongly worship me" or "in vain they worship me"? He could have said, "your faith is useless" but why must he say that particular words? It makes sense to say that the "worshipping" is part of the falsehood!

Concerning all of this; I never claimed to have proof of anything. These arguements are well know, and I'm not claiming to have any new information. My point was that there are difficulties in the Bible which can be debated both ways, and in the same way there are difficulties in the Koran which can be debated both ways. This is not the time or place for those debates, I'd like to keep this thread on topic, which is the debate about Jesus's divinity.

So you will accuse something without proof? Even in court we must have proof if we want to accuse someone, let alone the almighty God! Every argument about christianity uttered by muslims always have proofs behind it, whether historical or scientific facts. So, we expect you to do the same with your argument. Lacking proofs can be an argument for muslims to reject christianity.
Now, please watch this video. There, a Christian cried after listening to explanations about Islam from Yusuf Esthes, a muslim who is also a former Christian

[video=youtube;MH2RZfNXGdA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH2RZfNXGdA&sns=tw[/video]

Tell me what do you think about it. I think it is a good video to know about Islam. Moreover someone who explained it has ever been a Christian. The duration is not too long, only about 30 minutes or so. I hope you will enjoy it ;)
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
:salam2:

^ This is one of my favourite videos. Sh. Yusuf Estes makes really good points, and that' after he tried to study the Bible as much as he could.
 

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
The fact of the matter is, when you dissect the verse it clearly points to Jesus.

That is what you believe, however even a layman will know how clear the verse is, and how clear it refers to David (peace and blessings be upon him).

Concerning all of this; I never claimed to have proof of anything. These arguements are well know, and I'm not claiming to have any new information. My point was that there are difficulties in the Bible which can be debated both ways, and in the same way there are difficulties in the Koran which can be debated both ways. This is not the time or place for those debates, I'd like to keep this thread on topic, which is the debate about Jesus's divinity.

I'm also like to refute the Koran's claim that my vain desires cause me to say that only Christians will go to heaven. I simply believe it is the truth, whether I like it or not. BTW I don't like it, I wish everyone would go to heaven. It seems to me that God could have done something different to fix this problem, but this is also a topic for another time/place.

So why did you claim: 1. There are versions of Quran, 2. Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud (radiyallahu 'anh)'s version has 111 Surahs, and 3. Ubayy bin Ka'b (radiyallahu 'anh)'s version has 116 Surahs??? Brother! This is not a fairy tale we are continuing here. We do not refuse to your point that there are difficulties which we can debate, but when the debate carried on you will realise that the Quran is free from what you claim. Please never think we are following Islam blindly.

Can you please comment on the following? Just give a click to the picture to see it big.

6142150745_be666a0cb4_z.jpg
 

Hajjerr

He is Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram
Hello...

So even knowing that the very creed of christianity, trinity, is a man made law, you are comfortable with that ? Jesus, peace be upon him, did not had this initiative, would not he teached people to worship him and the holy spirit along with God if that would be the true salvation for humankind ?

And i dont know how a christian can accept the santification of humans, pious, no doubt, but yet normal, people pray at dead bodys that have n power...the cross and icons are now images of God and God told us to not create his image...there are so many things that confuse people...the original sin and a cruel sacrifice ? This is path to Paradise ? No, we have to be aware that we are the masters of our destiny, discover Allah and creat a good relationship with him, pray and do your best to help your family and others...this is what Quran tells...and learn from the mistakes from the past generations. What is simple people tend to complicate.

Islam is here exactly to correct these mistakes, a person does not have to give up at christianity to become muslim in my opinia, because both religion love Jesus, what a person has to do is clean his life of innovations. I like this quote: many muslims are more christians than the christians.

I hope God will guide you, we can only present what islam really is, the same religion teached by all prophets in all times.
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
What I found even contradicts with what you expected. Look at verse 16:

16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a
servant[c] is not greater than his master;
nor is he who is sent greater than he who
sent him.


While in John 17 : 3, Jesus claims that God sent him:

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

So, in conclusion, Jesus is not greater than the one who sent him! How could this be when they are one in your belief system? Did you see inconsistency here? I did!

I see where you are coming from, but I think the evidence for His divinity is stronger than the evidance in the negative.
Why is it everytime there is evidence for divinity, you claim the Bible is full of errors, and evidance for the opposite and you don't have anything to say about the accuracy of the text?...seems pretty biased.

Thank you again for admitting that bible is not perfect, even pointed out to the specific part. Did you know that Jesus' language is Aramaic? So why did you believe most in translation in Greek or Hebrew? And did you know that Bible in Aramaic found in Turkey and it said about the coming of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Also, did you know that unlike yours, Quran is perfect?There is no scientific errors in it and it is compatible with nowadays science. You can read about that here :

www.quranandscience.com

I cannot continue to debate with you if you are unwilling to be unbias in your beliefs. There is clear and reasonible doubts about the accuracy & truth in the Koran. I've come to this discussion with an open mind, you have not.

And many more, just type in search engine and so many results will appear. If only muslims who claim that, I understand if you disbelieve me. But even the christians themselves reported the same thing! So,clearly Brother Joshua didn't make up that issue
Here is explanation about spirit in Islam: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_(Islam)

I conceeded that I agree it is a point of contention. What more do you want me to say. Despite this point of contention, the doctrine of the trinity is supported in many places in the Bible, not only this one verse. I have been looking at all the links you have provided, but apparenty you have not been checking the ones I have posted. :-/

If so, then Jesus can only state, "People, I am your God in human form. Here is the way to worship me. Follow me." But where in the bible that thing exists? If God wants example, He will provide prophet for that matter. Didn't it the thing He do all this time, sending prophets until the sealed of the prophet, Muhammad? So why He must bother to descend Himself if He can create prophet for that purpose? Why did He need another prophets if He can descend directly? Why didn't He descend at the beginning of time as example of human?
Trinity is way too confusing and like Brother above stated, God must not want his followers to be confused. Atheism has been debunked by Islam many times and many of them have accepted Islam without the need of seeing God, alhamdulillah.

No, it only explains that Allah is capable of doing anything. If he can create Adam without father and mother then not claiming him as "his son" then why can't He do the similiar thing to Jesus? Sorry, it does not make sense if God, even in human form, is less special than the others. I remember Brother Joshua said that christian concept related with patriarchy, where father side is always greater than mother side. Just because Jesus has no father, some people immediately claimed that god was the father because He is great. Naudzubillah. Muslims know here that Allah can create miracle.
If you don't have any other arguments as back up, then surely I also can make my own religion, saying that Noah is son of god, and when someone asks why, just say "because he is special" without many other arguments. Will you believe it?

Did you know that Hinduism also believe in one God but manifest in three : Brahma, Siva, and Visnu? They even have "trimurti" concept which is basically same with "trinity"! So I don't think christianity is that different with polytheism because hinduism also believe that God is one but manifested into many things, i.e.other gods!

Read about trimurti here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti

I cannot say it near as well as it has already been said, please follow this link...its a short read:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Schlorff/trinity.htm

No, Brother Joshua is right. Even in your interpretation, it can be said that Jesus himself was angry because there were some people who mislead his teachings. Now, why there must be word "wrongly worship me" or "in vain they worship me"? He could have said, "your faith is useless" but why must he say that particular words? It makes sense to say that the "worshipping" is part of the falsehood!

So you will accuse something without proof? Even in court we must have proof if we want to accuse someone, let alone the almighty God! Every argument about christianity uttered by muslims always have proofs behind it, whether historical or scientific facts. So, we expect you to do the same with your argument. Lacking proofs can be an argument for muslims to reject christianity.

If we had proof on either side, there would be no need for this discussion. Either side would simply show their proof and the conversation would be over. The problem is, neither side has proof, we only have evidance (some more reasonible than others) and faith. I have not claimed to have any proof. I brought up the questions about the Koran's accuracy as an example of the fact that there are reasonible doubts. If you don't think they are reasonible, that's fine, that's your right to believe what you want. But many people do see them as a problem, otherwise there would not be any discussion about it. Just like our discussion about 1 John 5:7...I was ignorant about it, but after learning more, I agree, there is reason for questions and thought. If you are not willing to say the same about the difficulties the Koran has, this proves my point about you not being unbias about reason and faith.

Now, please watch this video. There, a Christian cried after listening to explanations about Islam from Yusuf Esthes, a muslim who is also a former Christian

[video=youtube;MH2RZfNXGdA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH2RZfNXGdA&sns=tw[/video]

Tell me what do you think about it. I think it is a good video to know about Islam. Moreover someone who explained it has ever been a Christian. The duration is not too long, only about 30 minutes or so. I hope you will enjoy it ;)

I watched the video, thanks. Not very convincing to me, as you say, he didn't provide any "proof", but some of the evidance produced was again worthy of consideration.

I agree with him whole-heartedly that there are many dishonest people, even some who claim to be christain. In fact, every person on earth has been dishonest (besides Jesus). But people's honesty does not affect the truth of the message. With that logic, if I ever found a Muslim to be dishonest, I could claim that Islam is worthless. This is simply a plea to emotions, and a poor argument.
 

Casiva

A Servant of Allah
I can't quote because of technical matters but I think it won't be a big problem. So, here we go.
I am not being bias, but bible really contains errors and inconsistency, what can I say. Iprofessshirk, you should know that I use my common sense in understanding religion. My common sense cannot accept verses which clash at each other. I am different with you who blindly believe anything within bible even reject the clear inconsistency in front of your very own eyes.
Also, Quran does not have flaws. You just produced issue without proofs to support your claims, therefore it is useless. You must have back up in your arguments, whether it is logical statements, historical, scientific, or any facts. No muslims here will believe any unproven issue.
In addition, Quran has no inconsistency, so compatible with modern science, never been edited by human, also there is only one version in the whole world. In comparation, bible has so many versions, has been revised a lot by human, has a lot of inconsistency within it (some of them have been pointed by me), and incompatible with science (you have pointed out that yourself, and don't forget that bible said the earth was flat. Church had also punished severely many scientists before because of their discovery that didn't fit bible explanation, but later their discoveries proved to be true). It is up to you if you want to choose a holy book which has some errors in it. If you want to read comparation of Quran and Bible, read here :

www.bibleislam.com/bible_vs_quran.php

Thank you, at least you didn't think of Brother Joshua being deceptive anymore. But I don't think the words "trinity" has even been there in bible. Strange, isn't it, while it is a crucial part in christianity? Yusuf Esthes has different opinion about "trinity verses". Read it here:

www.justaskislam.com/18/is-the-word-trinity-in-the-bible/

I did read your sources (if not, how could I pointed out those verses' inconsistency?), including your recent link about trinity, but the concept of trinity is very difficult to grasp. Even after thinking as hard as I can, I can not understand why God must descend himself if He has hoardes of angels and prophets, or label himself as "son", or pray to himself, etc. Not to mention it is so weird to think of a God is less special than a human (Adam has no father and mother!). In contrary, Islam's concept is so simple and easy to accept. The concept of Jesus is a special human just like Adam makes sense for me.
Your comment about proof in argument seems irrelevant to me. As I said above, no muslims will believe issue which have no proofs. Religion debate is not mere playing with words. If I say that bible is written by Moses without proofs, will you believe it?
About Yusuf Esthes' video, I think he has a valid and logical argument. He has shown proofs, i.e. the errors within bible, not accuse something out of nothing. And why did the pastor lie about christianity? Pastor should be a good example. If the "holy man" even lied in faith, how's about the others? Perhaps that was what Yusuf Esthes thought. I can see why he decided to neglect christianity. Muslims are not perfect but at least the Imam won't deceive you in faith.
So, actually, the one who must open your mind is you. I have opened my mind, but you think my critical side is bias because you yourself have bias i.e. can't accept the flaws within bible. But like Yusuf Esthes and all muslims here, I have provided you with facts and logical statements, but I don't know why, you seem to be blind to all those logical facts. You didn't even answer all of them logically. I saw some of your answers were not serious or even playful. The problem with you is you can't argue logically and rely too much in faith. Sorry to say that almost all of us here have had faith, so mere faith won't convince most of us. Without any logical arguments, it is pointless to have a debate with other religion's followers.
I have pointed out several flaws of bible out of its many other flaws. Please think about it and answer it logically. If you can not find the answer anywere, then it means that it is the truth. Remember, the truth will always prevail in the end.
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
Interesting thread posted at wrong section.

Admin / Mods, can we have one section for Comparative Religion?

Brother,

I refuse to quote your username, it is not a good username for you. Shirk do present in Christianity but your scholars claimed to be rejecting shirk. By choosing this username, are you acknowledging that you are committing shirk?

Allow me to ask couple of questions because you should convince us why "Jesus is god", so let me ask questions.

First question: which denomination are you belong?

2nd: If you think Jesus is divine, can you provide me the definition of divinity? By definition, God is unborn and uncreated, so He has no parents and He is not parent to anything, so how can Jesus (peace be upon him) is god?

3rd question: what is the difference between "god the son" and "son of god" in christianity?

4th: do you believe in below creed?

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen".
 

Absolute truth

لا إله إلا الله
.. but the concept of trinity is very difficult to grasp.
Assalam alaikum
This may helps:
William Lane Craig gives a GREAT ANALOGY of the Trinity
[video=youtube;8tFI3lLIVGw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8tFI3lLIVGw[/video]
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
I am not being bias, but bible really contains errors and inconsistency, what can I say. Iprofessshirk, you should know that I use my common sense in understanding religion. My common sense cannot accept verses which clash at each other. I am different with you who blindly believe anything within bible even reject the clear inconsistency in front of your very own eyes.
Also, Quran does not have flaws. You just produced issue without proofs to support your claims, therefore it is useless. You must have back up in your arguments, whether it is logical statements, historical, scientific, or any facts. No muslims here will believe any unproven issue.
In addition, Quran has no inconsistency, so compatible with modern science, never been edited by human, also there is only one version in the whole world. In comparation, bible has so many versions, has been revised a lot by human, has a lot of inconsistency within it (some of them have been pointed by me), and incompatible with science (you have pointed out that yourself, and don't forget that bible said the earth was flat. Church had also punished severely many scientists before because of their discovery that didn't fit bible explanation, but later their discoveries proved to be true). It is up to you if you want to choose a holy book which has some errors in it.

I cannot continue to debate with you, you are clearly not honest with yourself....how can we have a rational converstion when you are so clearly biased? There have benn many translations of the Koran, just as there have been many of the Bible. I'm willing to accept the facts, you are not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_translations

Interesting thread posted at wrong section.

Admin / Mods, can we have one section for Comparative Religion?

Brother,

I refuse to quote your username, it is not a good username for you. Shirk do present in Christianity but your scholars claimed to be rejecting shirk. By choosing this username, are you acknowledging that you are committing shirk?

Allow me to ask couple of questions because you should convince us why "Jesus is god", so let me ask questions.

First question: which denomination are you belong?

2nd: If you think Jesus is divine, can you provide me the definition of divinity? By definition, God is unborn and uncreated, so He has no parents and He is not parent to anything, so how can Jesus (peace be upon him) is god?

3rd question: what is the difference between "god the son" and "son of god" in christianity?

4th: do you believe in below creed?

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen".

Sorry for posting in the wrong place, I started by asking where I should post my questions, about a month ago, and you're the first to provide the correct answer, thanks :)

I admit to committing the Islamic version of shirk.

1) none

2) Easy, by saying Jesus is divine, I am saying that He is God.

3) I believe all humans are sons of God in that we are his creation. But "God the son" refers specifically to Jesus, as He is the only begotten son of God.

4) I am undecided on "decending into hell", and I don't believe in the "Holy Catholic Church".

Assalam alaikum
This may helps:
William Lane Craig gives a GREAT ANALOGY of the Trinity
[video=youtube;8tFI3lLIVGw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8tFI3lLIVGw[/video]

I've heard it before, and in other places WLC has gone into more detail about why the analogy is not a great one (just happens to be the best one he could come up with), and that by definition, any analogy which attempts to portray God will fall short.
 

Shak78

Junior Member
There is a difference between the Qu'ran being translated into different languages and versions...which there is only one.
 

Shak78

Junior Member
Yes which goes back the translation issue, I have 3 Qu'rans in English and two are different by a word here and there but that is it. The Arabic is the same.
 

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
Well, you did not answer my question, neither did you commented on the picture.

For your kind information. Yes we have Quran in different translations, but everything speaks same. Quran does not have more than 1 (one) version. Its NOT like the Versions of Bible where one do not agree with the other. How many verses in KJV are omitted from RSV? Can you show us a single Bible in its Original Language called Aramaic (mother tongue of Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him))?

Its is crystal clear that you do not have the Original Bible with you. However, we Muslims have the Original Quran with us in the Language it is revealed. The original language of Bible is not alive now, but the language of Quran is still alive and being talked by hundreds of millions of people even today.

There are many people who have memorised the whole Quran at the age of 4, 6, 8, 10 etc etc. You can take 100 people from different parts of the world and let the recite from anywhere in the Quran. All of them will recite EXACTLY the SAME THING, not a single difference of even a word.

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:9-10)

May Allah guide you to the truth. I wish you what I wish for myself.
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
Yes which goes back the translation issue, I have 3 Qu'rans in English and two are different by a word here and there but that is it. The Arabic is the same.

Thank you for admitting that there are different versions as I stated...

We do not refuse to your point that there are difficulties which we can debate, but when the debate carried on you will realise that the Quran is free from what you claim.

I am glad you also are willing to admit there are questions/difficulties...at least there are a couple rational individuals around here.

Well, you did not answer my question, neither did you commented on the picture.

For your kind information. Yes we have Quran in different translations, but everything speaks same. Quran does not have more than 1 (one) version. Its NOT like the Versions of Bible where one do not agree with the other. How many verses in KJV are omitted from RSV? Can you show us a single Bible in its Original Language called Aramaic (mother tongue of Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him))?

Its is crystal clear that you do not have the Original Bible with you. However, we Muslims have the Original Quran with us in the Language it is revealed. The original language of Bible is not alive now, but the language of Quran is still alive and being talked by hundreds of millions of people even today.

There are many people who have memorised the whole Quran at the age of 4, 6, 8, 10 etc etc. You can take 100 people from different parts of the world and let the recite from anywhere in the Quran. All of them will recite EXACTLY the SAME THING, not a single difference of even a word.

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:9-10)

May Allah guide you to the truth. I wish you what I wish for myself.

A little off topic note concerning the passage in 1 Corintians, Muslim's are always talking about how they memorize so much of the Koran. I memorized 1 Corintians chpater 13 many years ago (and many other passages), so I am very familiar with it.

I can see how one might want to claim 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 is referring to the Koran. However, I could apply the same logic some here used earlier in regards to Jesus. If He was God, why was it not stated more explicitly....so, if this passages refers to the Koran, why didn't Paul give us more details to support that idea? In my mind, it clearly refers to how our minds will be transformed when we are gathered together with God in the new heaven/new earth. He will allow us to understand everything, even a difficult doctrine such as the trinity. Of course my view is not the only one...many Christians believe that the understanding that Paul is referring to is that which we were given via the redeeming work of Jesus Christ.
 

alf2

Islam is a way of life
Thank you for admitting that there are different versions as I stated...

Can you read? That is not what she said. Stop thinking you're cheeky when you're not.



A little off topic note concerning the passage in 1 Corintians, Muslim's are always talking about how they memorize so much of the Koran. I memorized 1 Corintians chpater 13 many years ago (and many other passages), so I am very familiar with it.

Not only "much" of the Qur'an, many Muslims memorize THE ENTIRE QUR'AN. Stop spelling it "Koran" that is disrespectful.

Why are we debating with this guy? Why?
If we went to some Christian site doing the same stuff he's doing they would curse me, call me the Devil and ban me. I dont see why we are allowing this.
I am an Ex-Christian, by the way.
 
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