Allahu Akbar! Pure sincerity

P-Thulhu

Junior Member
Of course for the non- believer such things as blasphemy against God means nothing.

True. Though I do show respect for others with whom I interact with. Whether at work or at play. :)

However, we cannot prove beyond doubt the existence of God and it is something we take (or not) on faith.

(Shakes head) Okay, first off if some one says something is 'Real'/'There' then they should be able to put forward even a good amount of stuff to point said thing out.

If I say "The Moon is real" then... I should be able to give to you enough information that you can then say "Ah, this thing/item/concept(Moon) relates to this/that thing."

Of course, people can make comments about other things which are not as easily, simplistically observable or 'Point too-able'. For those things then, lots of other things are used to show the 'Realness' of said things.

Yet, if God does indeed exist and is creator of all then choosing not to believe does not in itself negate the sin of for example.. Blasphemy.

That sentence doesn't quite work.

Only the unbelievers acknowledgement of it. The possibility remains that one may have to answer for it before God. Then we get into another realm of would God hold someone responsible for such a sin if the person did not or chose not to see it as sin.

Indeed we do. We're also back to trying to work out said 'Nature'/'Temperament' of said deity.

Need is not the same as want is it. I may want chocolate but I do not need it.
clear.png
Worship is “to give honor, homage, reverence, respect, adoration, praise, or glory to a superior being.” God wishes us to worship Him because He and He alone is worthy of it. He is the only being that truly deserves worship. He requests that we acknowledge His greatness, His power, and His glory.

This does not really address the underlying 'Why' of said actions. Also... why should a deity 'need' or 'want' such things as homage, reverence etc? Respect and acknowledgement I understand... but everything else?

God expects us to worship Him as an expression of reverence and thanksgiving to Him. He wants not only for us to love Him.. He wants us to act justly toward each other, to show love and compassion to others. This glorifies God. When we worship with an obedient heart and an open and repentant spirit, God is glorified. It's like if someone does you a great service are you not thankful to that person? Would you wish to honour or acknowledge that service in return?

Again, I can't but help think there's a.. confusion... of examples and ideas.

So.... we've basically got an idea of a deity. Then, there's the follow on notion that we should firstly acknowledge said deity and then we're supposed to continually venerate said deity.

If some one does me a good turn/deed I do thank them and acknowledge the help they have given. Once, that's it. Maybe a nod in passing over time later or a shared reminise of the times that involved the situation.

'Venerating' is not just saying thanks.

For the believer, who sees all we have and all we are and can hope to be comes from our creator we know as God, then we feel justified in honoring God for that. There is no compulsion placed upon us. The rain falls on the unrighteous as it does the righteous. God created us out of love we worship Him out of love. For a believer it's simplest.. Ya.

I do understand this. (Nods)

What you mean by bad things? The parasite for example often has a part to play in the cycle of life. So is it bad? Or do we just consider it so. Floods... Even could be seen to some extent a product of our being, global warming, soil erosion through deforestation it could be said to be a consequence of mankind's greed and our not caring for the world as we were meant to do. There has to be balance, but for evil... is not a creation of God, but it exists in the "absence" of God in the same way that dark exists as the absence of light. Btw.. Did you know a rainbow is a sign of the covenant God made with Noah..
clear.png
from the believers perspective.. In this case ~ christian.

No, I was trying to point out a different idea.

Though, again, this line is moving back towards the 'Nature' of the deity.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
True. Though I do show respect for others with whom I interact with. Whether at work or at play. :)

well thats a good thing. :)

(Shakes head) Okay, first off if some one says something is 'Real'/'There' then they should be able to put forward even a good amount of stuff to point said thing out.

If I say "The Moon is real" then... I should be able to give to you enough information that you can then say "Ah, this thing/item/concept(Moon) relates to this/that thing."

Of course, people can make comments about other things which are not as easily, simplistically observable or 'Point too-able'. For those things then, lots of other things are used to show the 'Realness' of said things.

I see your point, there is no proof a believer can offer an unbeliever that would be acceptable to them, maybe because they seek always the need for something to confirm to human logic to be "true". Believers take their faith in Gods existence from the world around them. There is a lot of things that cannot be explained away by science... Some People may call them miracles. I see the Bible is a proof of God, because without divine intervention it could not exist by the will of mankind alone.

That sentence doesn't quite work.

Maybe it does not. I sometimes have trouble with getting my point across. :) a sin may exist even you are a non believer. But since God loves you anyway then could be He will be merciful towards you. :)

Indeed we do. We're also back to trying to work out said 'Nature'/'Temperament' of said deity.

God shows His nature and temperament through His Word. For a christian that is Yeshua.

This does not really address the underlying 'Why' of said actions. Also... why should a deity 'need' or 'want' such things as homage, reverence etc? Respect and acknowledgement I understand... but everything else?

Worship is not groveling before God, nor is it performing meaningless rituals. God does not want hypocrisy and insincere worship because it is meaningless. What God does tell us to do is to love him. Loving God includes praising him, thanking him and obeying him. If God is perfect, then he deserves praise, and his commands are good commands that should be obeyed. Worshiping God fulfils us and makes us happy. We like to see that a person's goodness is acknowledged and rewarded in our lives and praising God gives believers the same satisfaction. By worshiping God, we acknowledge his perfection, which is the first step in learning from Him, we realise he's a perfect teacher, and then we are willing for him to teach us and increase our wisdom and morality. If it's fitting for us to praise our friends and family when they do well, how much more appropriate it is for us to praise a perfect God! When we love God and realise how awesome he is, worship and praise are natural results.

Again, I can't but help think there's a.. confusion... of examples and ideas.

So.... we've basically got an idea of a deity. Then, there's the follow on notion that we should firstly acknowledge said deity and then we're supposed to continually venerate said deity.

If some one does me a good turn/deed I do thank them and acknowledge the help they have given. Once, that's it. Maybe a nod in passing over time later or a shared reminise of the times that involved the situation.

'Venerating' is not just saying thanks.

But we are not perfect as God is perfect. As believers God is above all in perfection so our love for Him, (expressed in our worship) has to be sincere. A passing nod... Like an insincere prayer is not worthy of His perfection.

I do understand this. (Nods)

:) phew.. ***sigh of relief*** :D

No, I was trying to point out a different idea.

Though, again, this line is moving back towards the 'Nature' of the deity.

Ok....

May I ask are you atheist or agnostic? If the nature of that question is too personal in nature pleas be sure, there is no need to answer. I am just curious..
 

P-Thulhu

Junior Member
I see your point, there is no proof a believer can offer an unbeliever that would be acceptable to them, maybe because they seek always the need for something to confirm to human logic to be "true".

Okay... how does that work.

My examples such, for example,

  • 1) I can point to a large object that appears to float in the sky at most hours of the night and some hours of the day and say "That's the Moon" *Point, point*
2) Here, we've got this device full of alchohol. (We know its alcohol because of 'X' properties) And we float these other balls/bulbs fiulled with other liquids of different sizes full of water (We know it's water because fo 'Y' properties) and the little glass bubls/balls flaot at different hieghts as the larger jar of alcohol heats and cools. Oh look! The different hieghts match the way another glass tube full of mercury rises and falls. I have offered you information/evidence of temperature.

Believers take their faith in Gods existence from the world around them.

I'd ask for examples other than things which look mundane. I also notice/acknowledge you next point.

There is a lot of things that cannot be explained away by science... Some People may call them miracles.

Can you offer good/verified examples of... one? Two?

I see the Bible is a proof of God, because without divine intervention it could not exist by the will of mankind alone.

That's.. a tall offer/comment.

1) The Bible (In a literal sense) is a book. There have been many writing through the ages.

2)How do you know other writings through the ages weren't also inspired?

Maybe it does not. I sometimes have trouble with getting my point across.
clear.png
a sin may exist even you are a non believer. But since God loves you anyway then could be He will be merciful towards you.
clear.png

If said deity loves me. Then how can I possibly 'sin' within it's view?

God shows His nature and temperament through His Word.

I shall leave this small attempt at humor (While making a point) here:


Worship is not groveling before God, nor is it performing meaningless rituals.

How can some of the doings of worshipers not be seen as anything else? "Go to this building once a week and do these things. So that every one else who does such things along side y9u can see the physical evidence of what you're doing. Because it seems that with out the visible doings... there's no evidence of what you're thinking/feeling?

What? If a believer truly believes... Shouldn't that be it? Should not that simply be as far as it goes?

God does not want hypocrisy and insincere worship because it is meaningless.

Hence the tail end of my above point.

What God does tell us to do is to love him.

*Nods* And I can/could/might do that all the time within the happy places of my mind. That, again, does still not explain why it should be done so much after the first time. Or why simply keeping such happy thoughts in the space of my mind s not enough and all the physical motions must be gone through.

Loving God includes praising him(A), thanking him)B) and obeying him(C).

(A) People can do this quite happily to and unto themselves. 'Showing off' seems... odd...

(B) Right... so how does 'Being thankful, publicly, once a day, every week accomplish anything? Other than, again, being a public display as opposed to simply 'believing' and ;thinking' such things?

(c)This point raises quite a few issues which should either be discussed separately at length in possibly a different line of chatting

If God is perfect, then he deserves praise, and his commands are good commands that should be obeyed.

The first part of this comment is a lot of question. The second part does not necessarily follow the first part. The third part relies upon the first part (And the preceding ideas) being validated/true which again leads into a whole slew of other points. For example,

Is something 'Good' because it is good? Or is something only 'Good' because the deity says.indicates it is good? Where does the deity get its measuring stick for the quality/quantity of 'Good'?

(I'll leave out a lot of stuff.. since we're not yet seeing to be talking about the nature of the deity.)

.......As believers God is.......so our love for Him, (expressed in our worship) has to be sincere.

Right.. so why is it that some one saying what's in their mind of "I am great with God" not enough and the physical rote have to also be followed? Th deity, seeming by the comments made about it, already MUST know that's happening with a persons/peoples minds. The physical rote seem... superfluous to that.

May I ask are you atheist or agnostic? If the nature of that question is too personal in nature pleas be sure, there is no need to answer. I am just curious..

More an 'Ig-gnostic' I am definitely not sure that no deity exists. And many have been postulated/thought about.

I see no real good information/evidence of any deities existing or having existed.

Both of the above are quite open to being shown information about any such deity and hence a change of ideas/views.
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
The sincere one seeks to pass unnoticed upon the creation by covering his condition, and by way of his discreet unobtrusiveness the review is found to be sound for him.

Meanwhile the show-off delves in bribery at the door of the king. Giving off the illusion that he is from amongst the exclusive ones (close associates) – when in actuality he is alien. So ask him then of the secrets of the king; he will be made a shambles of. Yet if still it is hidden from you; then observe his conduct with the attendants of the king.





(Taken from: Badaa-i Al-Fawaa-id vol 3 p.1224-1225)
 
Top