Big ?

allahsservant

beautifl muslimah
if the Old Testament manuscrpits date back to 200 B.C. and the NewTestament manuscripts date back to A.D. and the Qur'an wasnt written until the 600's then how can the Bible be corrupted? Didint we borrow stories from the Bible? do we just assume that it is corrupted because Allah says so? is there no physical evidence to go by?
 

ibn azem

Super Moderator
Staff member
:salam2:

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How the Qur'an Differs From the Bible


By Prof. Shahul Hameed
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It is a common allegation by Christians that the Qur'an is a mere copy of the Bible; that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) simply plagiarized "his" book from the pages of the Bible.


It is true that Prophet Muhammad received the Qur'an AFTER the Bible came into existence; and it is also true that the books of the Bible and the Qur'an cover much common ground. But the conclusion of the Christian critics that the Prophet had studied the Bible with a view to copying its verses in order to somehow fabricate the Qur'an is absurd and untenable for the reasons discussed below.


Arabic Bible


First, there was no Arabic translation of the Bible available during the Prophet's time, as Ernst Würthwein informs us in his book, The Text of the Old Testament:
With the victory of Islam the use of Arabic spread widely and for Jews and Christians in the conquered lands it became the language of daily life. This gave rise to the need of Arabic versions of the Bible, which need was met by a number of versions mainly independent and concerned primarily for interpretation. (Würthwein 104)
Thus, the first translations of the Hebrew Bible in Arabic appeared after the advent of Islam. In fact, the oldest dated manuscript of the Old Testament in Arabic dates from the first half of the ninth century.
What about the New Testament?
Sidney H. Griffith, who has done extensive research on the appearance of Arabic and the New Testament says that
The oldest dated manuscript containing the Gospels in Arabic is Sinai Arabic MS 72. Here the text of the four canonical Gospels is marked off according to the lessons of the temporal cycle of the Greek liturgical calendar of the Jerusalem Church. A colophon informs us that the MS was written by Stephen of Ramleh in the year 284 of the Arabs, i.e., 897 AD. (Griffith 131–132)
And Prophet Muhammad had died in the first half of the seventh century, to be specific, in 632 CE.


Unlettered Prophet

Second, it would be ironic if the unlettered Prophet Muhammad could have studied and assimilated all the sources—Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Hanif, and ancient Arab beliefs—before he compiled the Qur'an. Indeed his illiteracy was acknowledged even by the enemies of Islam 1,400 years ago. And there is no record of the pagan Arabs in Makkah accusing Muhammad of pretending to be illiterate while actually being literate.

Allah the Almighty also answered this in the Qur'an:
[And thou wast not [able] to recite a Book before this [Book came] nor art thou [able] to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case indeed would the talkers of vanities have doubted. Nay here are signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our signs.] (Al-`Ankabut 29:48–49).
No Translation


Third, the language of Muhammad was Arabic and the Qur'an was revealed to him in Arabic. It is the original Arabic Qur'an that is always called the Qur'an, not any translation. But the language of the Old Testament was ancient Hebrew, and Jesus was a Jew who spoke Aramaic, which was a dialect of Hebrew, an Eastern Semitic language. But the books of the New Testament, including the Gospels, were written in Greek, a Western language, some time after Jesus Christ.
The Bible is a collection of writings produced at different points in history and authored by different writers. The many denominations of Christianity do not agree on the canon (the list of books accepted by the church as authoritative or divinely inspired) of the Christian Bible. Some of these books are not universally accepted. The Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say on the topic:
The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council. ("Canon of the New Testament")
There is a lot of confusion about the earliest existing texts of the Bible. The oldest extant manuscript of the Bible is believed to be the Codex Vaticanus, (preserved in the Vatican Library), which is slightly older than the Codex Sinaiticus (preserved in the British Library), both of which were transcribed in the fourth century.


As for the story of Jesus, there were at least 50 gospels written in the first and second century CE. Four of them (Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John) were included in the official canon during the fourth century CE and are found today in every Bible. All of the original copies of the gospels were lost. What we have now are handwritten copies, which are an unknown number of replications removed from the originals.
Rudolf Bultmann, a prominent 20th-century professor of New Testament studies writes about the life of Jesus:
We can now know almost nothing concerning the life and personality of Jesus, since the early Christian sources show no interest in either, are moreover fragmentary and often legendary; and other sources about Jesus do not exist. (Bultmann 8)
The earliest of the four gospels is Mark's and this was written sometime from 57 to 75 CE, according to scholars. The other gospels were composed much later than this, and the last of the four Gospels (John's) was probably written between 85 and 100 CE. All these gospels were originally in Greek and their authorship is a subject of dispute.


Self-Reference


The Bible does not contain self-reference; that is, the word Bible does not occur in the Bible. In fact, only certain Christian groups believe that the Bible — in its entirety — is the revealed word of God. The presence of so many contradictions and patently questionable ideas makes this claim untenable.
In comparison, the Qur'an's claim to be the record of the word of God dictated to His Prophet is borne out by the following facts: The speaker in the Qur'an is God talking directly to man, while the sayings of the Prophet, called Hadith, are in other books. The Qur'an repeatedly says that it is the word of God. It has self-reference; that is to say, it names itself 70 times as the Qur'an.


Memorization


The verses of the Qur'an were revealed to Prophet Muhammad in the course of 23 years of his life as the events in the unfolding development of the religion of God called for divine guidance. As soon as the Prophet received these verses, he dictated them to his disciples, who not only wrote them down, but also learned them by heart. There were so many people who had memorized the Qur'an that we can say that from the first day of its revelation, the Qur'an was in the hands and hearts of the people.
Before the death of the Prophet, the whole of the Qur'an was written down, examined, and verified by the Prophet himself. From that time onwards, it has remained safe from corruption, as several copies of it were in the possession of the Muslims. It was not possible to make any changes to its verses, even if someone wanted to do so, because a standard copy was preserved. Further, so many Muslims had memorized the Qur'an that they would have recognized any changes. Moreover, God has promised in the Qur'an [Certainly, it was We Who revealed the Reminder (the Qur'an) and certainly We shall preserve it] (Al-Hijr 15:9).


At the time of the Prophet's death, a number of the Prophet's Companions already had assembled the portions of the Qur'an with them into a volume. It was during the time of the first caliph, Abu Bakr, that a leading scholar and scribe of the Prophet, Zayd ibn Thabit, was appointed to compile an official version. After meticulous work, he prepared the official collection (mushaf).


Incorruptibility


One of the foremost reasons for the Qur'an's continued incorruptibility is that it has been preserved in its original language, unlike the Bible. No one in the Muslim world has ever thought to supersede it with a translation. Thus the Qur'an we have today is the same Qur'an that the Prophet received from God. Its authenticity and genuineness therefore, are unimpeachable.
One of the miracles of the Qur'an, which was revealed 14 centuries ago, is the fact that it can be read and understood by the Arabic-speaking people living today. Every language undergoes changes as time passes, and one or two hundred years is long enough for a language to undergo substantial changes. Thus anyone who knows the rudiments of the history of languages knows that logically it should be impossible for the Arabic-speaking peoples of today to read and understand a book 14 centuries old. And yet, every day, every hour, every minute, in fact every second of the 24 hours of the 365 days of every year of the past centuries has been alive with the reading and study of the Qur'anic verses. And it goes on into the future. The volume and scope of it multiplies in every imaginable way with the coming of the multimedia. This started at the time of the Prophet and it has continued unceasingly till the present day, making this the ever-present miracle of Prophet Muhammad rivaling all other miracles.
Allah says [This is the Book; in it is Sure Guidance, no doubt, for those who are God-conscious] (Al-Baqarah 2:2) In another verse we read [And say: "The Truth has arrived, and Falsehood perished; for Falsehood is bound to perish"] (Al-Israa' 17:81).


Sources

  • [*] Bultmann, Rudolf. Jesus and the Word. Charles Scribner's Sons, New York, 1958
    [*] "Canon of the New Testament." Catholic Encyclopedia (ww.newadvent.org)
    [*] Griffith, Sidney H. "The Gospel in Arabic: An Enquiry into Its Appearance in the First Abbasid Century." in Oriens Christianus, volume 69, pp. 131-132.
    [*] Würthwein, Ernst. The Text of the Old Testament. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1988.
 

ibn azem

Super Moderator
Staff member
Bismillah,

:salam2:

As regards the question, we would like to quote for you the following from the book “Islam Exposes the Biased Attempts to Discredit It” by Dr. Mahmoud Hamdy Zaqzouk, the Egyptian Minister of Endowments and former professor at the Faculty of Theology at Al-Azhar University:


"Was the Qur’an compiled from previously revealed scriptures?

1- Had the Qur’an been contrived from old scriptures, Muhammad's (saws) adversaries would not have ignored the matter and remained silent. They would undoubtedly have seized the opportunity to accuse him to that effect . All their allegations were unfounded and lacked proof. The Qur’an itself has already mentioned these allegations and their refutation.

2- The Qur’an includes many laws, instructions and commands which did not exist in the previous scriptures. Furthermore, the Qur’an contains narratives with detailed accounts of previous generations in addition to prophecies which were fulfilled. An example of this was the final outcome of the conflict between the Romans and Persians, the events of which were unknown to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), his people and the followers of Judaism and Christianity.

3- The Qur’an urged people to acquire knowledge and to respect the human mind and intellect. Accordingly, based on Islam's new teachings and rulings, the Muslims were able, in a very short time, to establish a civilization which replaced the preceding civilization and flourished for many centuries. Had the Qur’an been compiled from the previous divine religions why then did these religions not include the aforementioned precept and teachings and did not play the same role as Islam?

4- The Qur’an is a book the style of which is consistent and eloquent. Had it been compiled from other scriptures it would have been incoherent, contradictory and inconsistent due to the alleged various sources. Moreover, the Qur’an, always addresses one’s sense and reasoning and does not include fables and myths. It relies upon evidence and facts and demands the same of its adversaries. Allah’s says: “Say: Bring your proof, if ye are truthful!” (An-Naml: 64) This approach is considered a completely new approach and does not exist in any previous scripture.


In addition to the previous authentic refutation, one may add:

1- The Qur’an related facts totally unknown to the People of the Books. For example it narrated the story of Zakariah and the birth of the Virgin Mary and his guardianship of her. The Qur’an also devoted whole chapter to the Virgin Mary, which is unparalleled in the New Testament. Where could Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) possibly have acquired these facts?

2- It is related in Exodus that it was Pharaoh’s daughter who adopted Moses as a baby, whereas the Qur’an states that Pharaoh’s wife found him and adopted him. We also read Exodus that “Aron fashioned the gold and moulded the calf …” that was worshipped by the Jews, whereas the Qur’an states that Samiri was the culprit and that Aron was innocent.

3- If the Qur’an had been derived from the Holy Scriptures of the Jews and Christians, why did Islam reject the principle of the Trinity which is a fundamental belief in Christianity? Why did Islam also reject the belief in the crucifixion of Christ, redemption, inherited sin and the divinity of Christ?

4- The Qur’an presents the Prophets of Allah as ideals of morality and virtue, whereas the Old Testament states that some of them committed sins, and this is incompatible with the veneration accorded to them by Islam.

5- Religious observances commanded in the Qur’an such as prayer, fasting, obligatory charity and the pilgrimage to Ka`bah, in addition to the instructions and teachings stated as to the manner of how each observance is to be performed are matters that are unparalleled and are not mentioned in any other religion. The five daily prayers are performed in a certain manner at appointed times with the recital of certain specific verses of the Qur’an. Fasting entails total abstinence from food drink and physical desire from dawn till sunset. Charity varies in quantity and the way that is given. The Pilgrimage entails circling around the Ka`bah, being assembled in great gathering at Mount Arafat, going to and forth seven times between As-Safa and Al-Marwa, and stoning Satan. These are all religious observances, which are specifically related to Islam. Which religion could possibly have been the source of these religious observances?”


Excerpted with slight modifications from http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MHZ_IEBAD/CHAPTERONE.html


Based on the above, it has become crystal clear to all that Islam, in general, and the Qur'an, in particular, is something great and unique. Needless to say that Islam has made lawful to people things that were previously made totally prohibited. In surat Al-An`am, we read: “ Say: I find not in that which is revealed unto me aught prohibited to an eater that he eat thereof, except it be carrion, or blood poured forth, or swineflesh for that verily is foul or the abomination which was immolated to the name of other than Allah. But whoso is compelled (thereto), neither craving nor transgressing, (for him) lo ! your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful. Unto those who are Jews We forbade every animal with claws. And of the oxen and the sheep forbade We unto them the fat thereof save that upon the backs or the entrails, or that which is mixed with the bone. That We awarded them for their rebellion. And lot We verily are Truthful.” (Al-An`am:145-146)

Almighty Allah makes it clear to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and all Muslims that the Glorious Qur'an is totally different from all previous laws; it is unique in its nature. Allah says: “ And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced out way.” (Al-Ma’idah:48)

Here, we would like to highlight the point that, for example, the Jewish legislation ordered for the killing of a person as a way of accepting his repentance. Accordingly, when a person committed a sin and later wanted to repent, he would be subject to killing as a sign of showing genuine repentance and for his repentance to be accepted. This is mentioned in the Qur’an in the verse that reads: “And when Moses said unto his people: ‘O my people! Ye have wronged yourselves by your choosing of the calf (for worship) so turn in penitence to your Creator, and kill (the guilty) yourselves. That will be best for you with your Creator and He will relent toward you. Lo! He is the Relenting, the Merciful.’” (Al-Baqarah: 54)

In the law imbedded in the Qur'an the case is totally different, for winning Allah's forgiveness needs nothing more than showing repentance and regret for the previous sin, i.e., in order to be forgiven for any sin, a person is asked to show repentance to Allah and make a covenant never to transgress the limits again or to commit any sin.

How unique and great the Qur'an is! It can never be claimed that it is fabricated or derived from other laws. It is unique in nature, in rules and in the guidance which it showers on the whole human race.

wasalaam.
 

umm hussain

Junior Member
:salam2:

and Jesus was a Jew who spoke Aramaic , which was a dialect of Hebrew, [/SIZE][/LIST]

Asalam Alaikum, I would just like to correct brother ibn azem , I would like to disagree with the article you just posted above because it claims Jesus was A Jew, and as Muslims we know he was neither a Jew nor A christian but a true believer in Monotheism thus making him a Muslim, so after reading that part I have decided not to read any further for fear of being misguided.

It is under the heading No translation, first paragraph.
 

American Muslim

Just Another Slave
response to umm hussain

in your comment about ibn azem, you (quite correctly) say that Isa (PBUH) was a Muslim. I believe our brother ibn Azem was saying (also quite correctly) that Isa (PBUH) was a jew in the ethnic sense.
As Muslims, we know that this prophet was sent to the jewish people to correct the problems in their deen.
Gotta remember that being a jew is a race and a religion. Just ask any orthodox, or secular, Israeli.
 

NewMuslim

Slave of Allah
As Salaamu Alaykum
Remember also that the New Testament manuscripts (the earliest ones (I.E. the authentic ones) were destroyed by Constantine) date back to over 100 years after Jesus' :)saw:) death. Even Christian Missionaries admit that the Gospels weren't eye witness accounts (therefore making them invalid).

Constantine and a few rich Romans, at the Council of Nicea, created the Bible whilst destroying any other copies. Constantine chose the copies that he either ordered to be made or were not authentic. Copies dating back to the lives of the Apostles (such as the Gospel of Barnabas and the Apocalypse of Peter (which contradict Christian doctrines)) were deemed fabricated.

Constantine chose the ones which fitted him, created a belief system based off his pagan faith (Christianity is nearly identical to a Roman faith that dated back to a little bit before Constantine's time, meaning that it was the faith of Constantine), and destroyed any writings that were truly from the Apostles/Disciples because they contradicted what he wanted to say.

Why'd he do this? Easy. Any intelligent person knows that religion will get you a LOT of money. He was greedy and used religion to gain the support of the Christian majority, thereby ensuring his rule and the flow of money to him.
 

ibn azem

Super Moderator
Staff member
Asalam Alaikum, I would just like to correct brother ibn azem , I would like to disagree with the article you just posted above because it claims Jesus was A Jew, and as Muslims we know he was neither a Jew nor A christian but a true believer in Monotheism thus making him a Muslim, so after reading that part I have decided not to read any further for fear of being misguided.

It is under the heading No translation, first paragraph.
:salam2:

If one does not believe the words of Allah (swt) that 'Eesa (a.s.) the son of Maryam is a servant of Allah (swt) and His Messenger, then he is not a muslim, that is just to clarify my standpoint to your concern sister.

'Eesa (pbuh) was a Muslim, a Messenger sent to the children of Israel.

And as brother American Muslim (Jazakallah brother) explained it he was a
Jew - technically a descendant of the tribe of Judah, so in the ethnic sense - something that hasn't to do with his belief.

Jewish rabbis aslo, ascribed their creed - Judaism (viz Yehudiat) to Judea or Judah (viz Yehuda), after the name of Prophet Jacob’s (PBUH) fourth son, Judah viz Yehuda, centuries after the lifetime of the Prophet Moses (PBUH)
.

There's no Christianity either, was 'Eesa a christian? No! People that came after him named their religion after his name.


"He (Allah) has ordained for you the same religion (Islam) which He ordained for Nooh (Noah), and that which We have inspired in you (O Muhammad SAW), and that which We ordained for Ibraheem (Abraham), Moosa (Moses), Iesa (Jesus) saying you should establish religion (i.e. to do what it orders you to do practically), and make no divisions in it (religion) (i.e. various sects in religion). Intolerable for the Mushrikoon, is that to which you (O Muhammad SAW) call them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills, and guides unto Himself who turns to Him in repentance and in obedience." 42:13

wasalaam.
 

mahdi

Junior Member
asalamu alykum, i think a muslim should not doubt that the quran is from allah, 192. Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds:

193. With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-

194. To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish.

195. In the perspicuous Arabic tongue.

196. Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples.

197. Is it not a Sign to them that the Learned of the Children of Israel knew it (as true)?

198. Had We revealed it to any of the non-Arabs,

199. And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it.
. Thus have We caused it to enter the hearts of the sinners.

201. They will not believe in it until they see the grievous Penalty;

202. But the (Penalty) will come to them of a sudden, while they perceive it not;

203. Then they will say: "Shall we be respited?"

204. Do they then ask for Our Penalty to be hastened on?

205. Seest thou? If We do let them enjoy (this life) for a few years,

206. Yet there comes to them at length the (Punishment) which they were promised!

207. It will profit them not that they enjoyed (this life)!

208. Never did We destroy a population, but had its warners -

209. By way of reminder; and We never are unjust.

210. No evil ones have brought down this (Revelation):

211. It would neither suit them nor would they be able (to produce it).

212. Indeed they have been removed far from even (a chance of) hearing
 

umm hussain

Junior Member
asalam alaikum

Why I was saying I dont agree that Jesus was a Jew is because of the definition of a Jew. Being a descendant of Judah is something else.

By definition a Jew is According to Halakha (Jewish law), only a convert or a child born to a Jewish mother is counted as Jewish. A child with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is considered a non-Jew.

The traditional definition of a Jew is "someone born to a Jewish mother or who has converted to Judaism." The requirement for a valid conversion is that the candidate for conversion understand the obligations of being a Jew, show commitment to fulfilling these obligations, (for a male) to undergo Brit milah (ritual circumcision) or one of its exceptions, perform immersion in a mikvah, and satisfy the scrutiny of a Beit din, or rabbinical court. The beit din act not only as judges but as witnesses in the course of conversion, and it follows that its members must be kosher, i.e. suitable and qualified for these purposes.

So with this definition how can Jesus be a Jew, anyway, I still stand to be corrected, because I need to understand.
 

ibn azem

Super Moderator
Staff member
Why I was saying I dont agree that Jesus was a Jew is because of the definition of a Jew. Being a descendant of Judah is something else.
:salam2:

That's what the article above was speaking of and nothing else, dear sister.

Allah (swt) raised him as a Prophet from amongst the children of Israel, and the Judah are a tribe from the children of Israel.

It's the same if If say now that the Messenger of Allah Muhammad (saws), was a Hashimeet (a descendant of the Hashimi family, who were pagans!) what does that mean? - That shows only his descent and not his religion!

I hope you get it it now.

wasalaam.
 

umm hussain

Junior Member
:salam2:

That's what the article above was speaking of and nothing else, dear sister.

Allah (swt) raised him as a Prophet from amongst the children of Israel, and the Judah are a tribe from the children of Israel.

It's the same if If say now that the Messenger of Allah Muhammad (saws), was a Hashimeet (a descendant of the Hashimi family, who were pagans!) what does that mean? - That shows only his descent and not his religion!

I hope you get it it now.

wasalaam.

Walaikum salam warahmatullah, I understand that that He was raised from amongst the people of Israel, I cant deny that but to call him a Jew is different. I like the example you gave me of the Messenger of Allah that he was from the Hashimeet family, who were Pagans, but you cant then say the Prophet Allah was a Hashimi. I will also give an example of myself, i am from a family(extended family) that is, who commit shirk, there is no denying that but then for to say I am a (clan name) I cant say that because that isnt who I am, Im muslim now even though I am from them.

I hope someone can understand where I am coming from.

Anyway no BIG deal, this might drag on forever
Jazakhallahu khair for trying to make me understand
 

ibn azem

Super Moderator
Staff member
Walaikum salam warahmatullah, I understand that that He was raised from amongst the people of Israel, I cant deny that but to call him a Jew is different. I like the example you gave me of the Messenger of Allah that he was from the Hashimeet family, who were Pagans, but you cant then say the Prophet Allah was a Hashimi. I will also give an example of myself, i am from a family(extended family) that is, who commit shirk, there is no denying that but then for to say I am a (clan name) I cant say that because that isnt who I am, Im muslim now even though I am from them.

I hope someone can understand where I am coming from.

Anyway no BIG deal, this might drag on forever
Jazakhallahu khair for trying to make me understand
:salam2:

I do understand where you're coming from.

Again, that you come from that family doesn't change the fact that you are a muslim does it?

Descent one thing - Belief another thing!

However, whether you want to call yourself that or not is a different thing, but fact is, that you are a descendant of that family!

wasalaam.
 
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