Discussion on Deobandis

[Aapa]

Assalaam alaikum,

One of the problems we have here is that everyone starts to put in the two cents. We lost the discussion.

What is it about the Deobandi that has made it so appealing. Why is the Deobandi spreading in the UK and even in the US?

What is the political ideology of the Deobandi...

( I thought this was Islamic discussion so lets discuss the Deobandi in a broad general manner)

 

[kiana]

i have never heard of deobundis and i don't have time to learn their new concepts. please, keep indian traditions inside india borders. a more important movement is to have desi women wear the hijab properly. it goes on your head, not on you shoulders.

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam alaikum,

Sister,

As Muslims we need to show the best of manners. Has it occurred to you that the Deobandi are trying to get women to cover. As for you lack of knowledge about the Deobandi, you are not alone. The choice of wishing to learn is entirely yours.

Thank you Brother Ershad as the post you brought up does give us a history in a nutshell.

 

[mohammadyunus]

Which cities do you live in? I will inshallah find an aalim for your questions

 

[azad.ahmed]

Brother, Tawassul through the Prophet after his death is not permissible. Tawassul through Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam) requires that he makes dua to Allah for you and that happens when he is alive on this Earth. `Umar (radiallahu anhu) mentioned that they made Tawassul through the Prophet when they were afflicted by drought, and after his death they made Tawassul through someone else instead of him.

What is confirmed on the authority of the Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them) is that they performed Tawassul to Allah through the Prophet (peace be upon him) supplicating to his Lord for them, on their request, as he also did for Istisqa' (Prayer for rain) and on other occasions. This happened when he was alive.

For example,

When the Prophet (peace be upon him) died, `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, when he went out for Salat-ul-Istisqa', "O Allah! If we were suffering from a drought, we would supplicate to You by our Prophet and you would send us water, and now we perform Tawassul to You through the uncle of our Prophet to send rain to us." And He sent rain. He meant Al-`Abbas who actually supplicated to His Lord for them; he did not make Tawassul by the honor of Al-`Abbas, because the honor of the Prophet (peace be upon him) was greater than that of his uncle's during his lifetime and remained so even after his death. If `Umar had wanted to perform Tawassul, he would have made it by the honor of the Prophet (peace be upon him) instead of his uncle's, but he did not.

The Hadeeth that you quoted cannot be used to prove permissibility of tawassul - Read discussion about that hadeeth (the hadeeth of the blind man) here - http://www.alifta.com/Fatawa/Fatawa...ID=7&SubjectPageTitlesID=51336&MarkIndex=13&0

What is done nowadays like "with the honor of so- so" who is already dead is not permissible, according to scholars.

if it were the case that tawassul here is in the sense of seeking du’a from the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace), this kind of tawassul would not be permissible after his (Allah bless him and grant him peace) death,but it occurs in the narration of al-Tabrani from ‘Uthman ibn Hunayf that he instructed a man to supplicate with this wording after his death. The wording of the narration of al-Tabrani is: “it was narrated from ‘Uthman ibn Hunayf that a man would come to ‘Uthman ibn ‘Affan due to a need he had, but ‘Uthman did not turn to him nor consider his need. The man then met ‘Uthman ibn Hunyaf and complained of this to him. ‘Uthman ibn Hunayf said to him “Go to the basin and perform ablution, then go to the mosque, pray therein two rak’ats and then say: ‘O Allah! Indeed I ask You and turn to You through Your Prophet the Prophet of Mercy…’” Al-Haythami mentioned it in Majma’ al-Zawa’id and said: “Al-Tabrani said at the end of it: ‘the hadith is authentic.’”It was also narrated by Ibn Majah, al-Nasai and Ibn Khuzaymah in his Sahih.

If the intent in tawassul here was seeking du’a from the Prophet (peace be upon him), the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) would have supplicated for him and the matter would have ended, but he (peace be upon him) taught him the method of du’a for himself for the future and taught him thereby to seek a means through his essence.

 

[John Smith]

you are living in england ..half of the masjids in UK run by deoband.. give me name of a single masjid in which you saw grave worshiping ,dancing ?

There is one that im clear of and its called Ghamkol Sharif, they love to kiss the **** of a chap called Sufi Abdullah now this fella has no qualifications in Islam other than that he used to write Taweez for people and when times got busy he would photocopy the same Taweez and sell them for all kinds of illness.

The group have purchased houses behind the car park where they intend to bury this Sufi Abdullah at they have told the city council it would be unwise to bury him in anormal cemetry as his followers will be worshiping him and sitting by his grave throughout the night.

Sat in one of thier Zikar classes for the fun of it and all i could here was what started out as Allah then became very fast Hu Hu Hu Hu Hu Hu and the men started breaking out in fits swinging thier arms in thier like it was a 80's disco night.

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam alaikum,

What is not being answered is why the Deobandi have such ties to the rituals of Sufism. Some of the most delightful writings in Islam are written by the Sufi. It is understood that the Sufi is looking into the mystical element of faith. It is not practical.

For those of us who wish to be simple Muslims living Islam 24/7 we have simpler options.

From a purely intellectual stance what makes the Deobandi so popular today? In light of the political situations do the Deobandi provide an outlook that is missing in the masjids of the Subcontinent and why are the Deobandi popular with the Taliban?

Is there a separation from the political elements of the Deobandi from the Sufi mystical elements?

This is not to be debated. We are looking for answers to gain understanding. Once again, if we live in the west we get questioned about our faith. To give a seeker of truth the response that it is a deviated faith does not cut the mustard.

Is there a following in the Far East?

 

[azad.ahmed]

Ghamkol Sharif and sufi Abdullah in Birmingham is Barelvi and masjid also run by barelvi group not Deoband... decorated masjids ,green turban or cloths, hu hu hu hu,singing ,dancing ,mawlid,decorated graves ,thumb kissing,ya peer, ya gaush are all barelvi stuff .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Raza_Khan

 

[az101]

All of these Sects exist because fault in there Aqeedah/Manhaj

a Very Important thread made sticky on this website PEOPLE HAVE TO VIST as it contains knowledge more valuable then your LIFE.

People Should REALLY start paying atention to fixing there Creed and begin doing the courses mentioned latest. such as Kitab At Tawheed , Usool-at-thalata 50 lessons etc.

Learn the Correct Creed of Islam.
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81340

People you could be questioned by Allah for not correct your Aqeeda/creed/Iman/tawheed !!

All of these question here i see on graves, tawssul and other are very serious problems some have ... this is Proof that all NEED Learn you Creed and what nullifies it.


Debandis have fault in there Pillars of IMAN.

Yes !! The very own foundation of Tawheed is Different to that of the 4 imams or any of the companions rather there understanding opposes it that of the companions.

Here is some research if for the one interested.

Here is some research on the Misguidance of Debandi

http://salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=9&Topic=8425

Refutation to the deviated Asraf Ali Thanvi and other refutation on tableege jammat and debandi concept
http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=8&Topic=6151

Do you wish to learn about the Deobandi misguidance?

then i have some audios you may benefit from in URDU by on the students of Knowledge in KSA who has a background in learning ISLAM from scholars such as Sheikh Salih al Fawzaan (Riyadh), Sheikh Utaybe and Student of Ibn Uthaymeen.

http://ashabulhadith.com/deobandith/deobandith.html

i wrote this msg in haste PLEASE LEARN your CREED from the link mentioned above and is made sticky on this forum.

 

[azad.ahmed]

Debandis have fault in there Pillars of IMAN,,

Yes !! there very own foundation of tawheed is Different to that of the 4 imams or any of the campnions ,rather it opposes it.

here is some research if for the one interested.

Here is some research on the Misguidance of Debandi

http://salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=9&Topic=8425

Refutation to the deviated Asraf Ali Thanvi and other refutation on tableege jammat and debandi concept
http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=8&Topic=6151

Do you wish to learn about the Deobandi misguidance?

then i have some audios you may benefit from in URDU by on the students of Knowledge in KSA who has a background in learning ISLAM from scholars such as Sheikh Salih al Fawzaan (Riyadh), Sheikh Utaybe and Student of Ibn Uthaymeen.

http://ashabulhadith.com/deobandith/deobandith.html

these slanders are not new (except some mixture of barelvi stuff ) ..these all answered in a book named Al-Muhannad �ala al-Mufannad and In total, 45 top ranking scholars from the Indian Subcontinent, Hijaz, Egypt and Syria endorsed, signed and approved the answers compiled by Shaykh Khalil Ahmad al-Saharanpuri as being in accordance with the Ahl al-Sunna methodology.

 

[Ershad]

If the intent in tawassul here was seeking du�a from the Prophet (peace be upon him), the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) would have supplicated for him and the matter would have ended, but he (peace be upon him) taught him the method of du�a for himself for the future and taught him thereby to seek a means through his essence.

I quote the hadith again:

Imam Ahmad said, in his "Musnad", "It was narrated to us by Rawh, who narrated from Shu`bah, on the authority of `Umayr ibn Yazid Al-Khatmi Al-Madini, who said that he heard from `Umarah ibn Khuzaymah ibn Thabit, who narrated on the authority of `Uthman ibn Hunayf, A blind man came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said, "O Prophet of Allah! Make Du`a' to Allah to cure me." He (peace be upon him) said, "If you want (me to), I will delay that, and it will be better for your Afterlife; and if you want me to I will make Du`a' for you." The man said, "Make Du`a' to Allah for me." So the Prophet told him to make Wudu', perform two-Rak`ahs, and make this Du`a': "O Allah! I ask of you and I turn to you through Your Prophet, Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy. O Muhammad! I have turned to my Lord through you for this need to be met. O Allah! Accept his intercession on my behalf."

There are several things you have to notice here:

1. The Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam) was alive.

2. The blind man went and asked the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam) to make du'a for him. And the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam) affirmed that he will make du'a for him and will intercede for him. Only, after that the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam) instructed him to do so (as mentioned in the hadith). The blind man did not just assume that if he made du'a to Allah through the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam) just like that, it would mean as though the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam) interceded.

3. Now, that the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam) is no more, how do you know that the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam) will intercede for you? The Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam) is not even aware of what dua' you are making except what Allah wills. This is because the dead cannot hear and you have no connection whatsoever to people who are dead from earth:

And Allaah the Most High has said, what means:

And not equal are the living and the dead. Indeed, Allah causes to hear whom He wills, but you cannot make hear those in the graves. (Surah Fatir 35:22)

4. This type of intercession was not practiced by any of the Sahaba (may Allah be pleased with them all) after the Prophet's death. Rather, as I mentioned in the hadith of Umar (radiallahu anhu):

When the Prophet (peace be upon him) died, `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, when he went out for Salat-ul-Istisqa', "O Allah! If we were suffering from a drought, we would supplicate to You by our Prophet and you would send us water, and now we perform Tawassul to You through the uncle of our Prophet to send rain to us."

He went to the Prophet's cousin (who was alive) to make du'a for rain for them. If the type of tawassul through Prophet was permitted, wouldn't it be better(?) since the honor of the Prophet is greater than Al-Abbass (radiallahu anhu). But, Umar (radiallahu anhu) did not do that because the Prophet was no more and the dead cannot hear and he cannot make tawassul through him.

5. If this type of tawassul was allowed and it had goodness in it, the Sahaba would be the first to do it and would rush towards it. For example, there is no good deed that one can think of, except that Abu Bakr (radiallahu anhu) would have already done it (I am paraphrasing a hadith narrated by Ali (radiallahu anhu)). As we have no reports of them doing it, why insist upon that? Do we even care to perform the worship that which has been authentically confirmed?

6. I think you are rather stretching the meaning of the hadith of the blind man, not seeing and considering it as a whole (the parts where the blind man asks for intercession and the Prophet agrees), to fit your type of tawassul into its meaning.

EDIT: Here is the fatwa which explains the bit I said about :

What is the ruling on Tawassul (seeking means) through the leader of the Prophets, and is there any proof for its prohibition?

ما حكم التوسل بسيد الأنبياء وهل هناك أدلة على تحريمه؟
Answer:

Tawassul through the Prophet (sallallaahu ýalayhi wa sallam) has a detailed explanation; if the (tawassul) is by means of following him, loving him, obeying his orders, abandoning his prohibitions, and having (utter) sincerity for Allaah in acts of worship, then this is Islaam, and it is the religion of Allaah, that which He sent with His prophets, and (in fact) it is an obligation upon every sane being (of age). It is the Waseelah (nearness and a means) to happiness in the worldly life and the hereafter. As for tawassul by means of invoking him (directly), asking for his help, and requesting him to grant victory over enemies, and healing the ill ý then this is major shirk, and it is the religion of Abu Jahl and his likes from the idol worshipers. And similarly, doing that with other than the Prophet, sallallaahu ýalayhi wa sallam, from the anbiyaa' (prophets) and awliyaa, or jinn, angels, trees, stones or idols (is considered major shirk as well). There is also a third kind that is identified as tawassul, and it is the tawassul by means of his rank, his right, or his actual self, for example, a person says: ýO Allaah! I Ask You by means of Your Prophet, or by the means of Your Prophetýs rank, or by the means of Your Prophetýs right, or by the means of Your Prophets ranks.ý Implementing this isnýt permissible through the Prophet or other than him. This is because Allaah (subhaanahu wa taýaala) did not legislate this, and (all) acts of worship are tawqeefiyyah ý these acts of worship are not allowed except that which the purified Islaamic legislation indicates (as being allowed). As for the tawassul of the blind man through the Prophet, sallallaahu ýalayhi wa sallam, during his lifetime, (then it is tawassul through him) so that he ('alayhis-sallam) may supplicate for him [on behalf of the blind man] and intercede for him with Allaah, so his sight is restored to him. It is not tawassul through the Prophetýs actual self, his status or his right as (this is) known from the context of the hadeeth1 and as the scholars of the Sunnah have clarified in the explanation of the hadeeth. The discussion concerning tawassul has been expounded on by Shaykhul-Islaam 'Abul-Abbaas Ibn Taymiyyah, rahimahullaah, in many of his beneficial books. From (those books), is a book named: Al-Qaaýidaatull-Jaaleeyah fi Tawassul wal-Wasseelah. It is a beneficial book, deserving to be looked at and benefited from. This (aforementioned) ruling is also permitted with other than him (sallallaahu ýalayhi wa sallam) from the living ý as when you say to your brother, or whomever you deem has khayr (good): ýInvoke Allaah for me, that He may cure me from my illness, restore my sight, or grant me righteous children, etcý - with the consensus of the people of knowledge. And it is Allaah who bestows success.

_________________ (1) That which is intended is the hadeeth of ýUthmaan bin Hunayf: ýA blind man came to the Prophet (sallallaahu ýalayhi wasallam) and said: ýInvoke Allaah that He should cure me. He said: ýIf you wish I will invoke for you, and if you wish I will delay that for that which is better.ý So he said: ýSupplicate to Him.ý So he (sallallaahu ýalayhi wa sallam) ordered him (the blind man) to make wudhoo well, and to pray two Rakaýaat and to supplicate with this duýaa: ýO Allaah! I ask You and turn to You by means of Your Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu ýalayhi wa sallam), the Prophet of Mercy, 'O Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu ýalayhi wa sallam), I have turned by means of you (i.e. your duýaa) to my Lord in this need of mine, so that it may be fulfilled for me, 'O Allaah accept his Shafaah on my behalf, and accept my Shafaah for him (to be accepted for me).ý It has been related by Ahmad (8/138) and by at-Tirmidhee in ýSupplicationsý (3578), and by An-Nasaaýi in ýýAmaal al-Yawm wal-Laylaý page 204, and Ibn Maajah in ýIqaamaatu-Salaahý (1385).

التوسل بالنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فيه تفصيل، فإن كان باتباعه ومحبته وطاعة أوامره وترك نواهة وخلاص والإجلاص لله في العبادة، فهدا هو الاسلام، وهو دين الله الذي بعث به أنبياءه، وهو الواجب على كل مكلف...وهو الوسلة للسعادة في الدنيا ولآخرة، أما التوسل بدعااه والاستغاثة به وطلبه النصر على الأعداء والشفاء للمرضى - فهذا هو الشرك الأكبر، وهو دين أبي جهل وأشباهه من عبدة الأوثان، وهكذا فعل ذلك مع غيره من الأنبياء والأولياء أو الجن أو الملائكة أو الأشجار أو الأصنام. وهناك نوع ثالث يسمى التوسل وهو التوسل بجاهه أو بحقه أو بذاته مثل أن يقول الإنسان: "أسألك يا الله بنبيك، أو جاه نبيك، أو حق نبيك، أو جاه الأنبياء" ولا يجوز فعله معه ولا مع غيره، لأن الله سبحانه وتعالى لم يشرع ذلك، والعبادات تو قيفيقة لا يجوز منها إلا ما دل عليه الشرع المطهر. وأما توسل الأعمى به في حياته (فهو توسل به) ليدعو له ويشفع له إلى الله في اعادة بصره إليه، وليس توسلاً بالذات أو الجاه أو الحق كما يعلم ذلك من سياق الحديث(1) وكما أوضح ذلك علماء السنة في شرح الحديث. وقد بسط الكلام في ذلك شيخ الاسلام أبو العباس ابن تيمية رحمه الله في كتبه الكثيرة المفيدة، ومنها كتابه المسمى: "القاعدة الجليلة في التوسل وللوسلية"، وهو كتاب مفيد جدير بالاطلاع عليه والاستفادة منه. وهذا الحكم جائز مع غيره صلى الله عليه وسلم من الأحياء، كأن تقول لأخيك أو أبيك أو من تظن فيه الخير: ادع الله لي أن يشفيني من مرضي أو يرد على بصري أو يرزقني الذرية الصالحة أو نحو ذلك بإجماع العلم. والله ولي التوفيق

Shaykh `Abdul-`Azeez Bin Baz
Majmoo' Fataawa wa Maqaalaat Mutanawee'aa 5/322-323, Shaykh Ibn Baaz, rahimahullaah
Translated by Umm Sufyaan Fatimah

Source: http://www.fatwaislam.com/fis/index.cfm?scn=fd&ID=1388

Read the bold-underlined bit.

Also it will be useful to read this article : Shaykh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah on Intercession and the Affirmed and Rejected Types of Intermediaries

 

[azad.ahmed]

i am talking about this hadith;

Tabarani, in his "al-Mu'jam al saghir", reports a hadith from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf that a man repeatedly visited Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him) concerning something he needed, but Uthman paid no attention to him or his need. The man met Ibn Hunayf and complained to him about the matter - this being after the death (wisal) of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar - so Uthman ibn Hunayf, who was one of the Companions who collected hadiths and was learned in the religion of Allah, said: "Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then come to the mosque, perform two rak'as of prayer therein, and say:

'O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I turn through you to my Lord, that He may fulfill my need,' and mention your need. Then come so that I can go with you [to the caliph Uthman]." So the man left and did as he had been told, then went to the door of Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him), and the doorman came, took him by the hand, brought him to Uthman ibn Affan, and seated him next to him on a cushion. 'Uthman asked, "What do you need?" and the man mentioned what he wanted, and Uthman accomplished it for him, then he said, "I hadn't remembered your need until just now," adding, "Whenever you need something, just mention it." Then, the man departed, met Uthman ibn Hunayf, and said to him, "May Allah reward you! He didn't see to my need or pay any attention to me until you spoke with him." Uthman ibn Hunayf replied, "By Allah, I didn't speak to him, but I have seen a blind man come to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) and complain to him of the loss of his eyesight. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Can you not bear it?' and the man replied, 'O Messenger of Allah, I do not have anyone to lead me around, and it is a great hardship for me.' The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) told him, 'Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then pray two rak'as of prayer and make the supplications.'" Ibn Hunayf went on, "By Allah, we didn't part company or speak long before the man returned to us as if nothing had ever been wrong with him."

'The account has been classified as authenticated (SAHIH) by Baihaqi, Mundhiri, and Haythami."

as for response to the hadith of blind man , the man first sought du’a from the Prophet(peace be upon him) then the Prophet (peace be upon him) commanded him to supplicate himself for himself seeking a means through the Prophet(peace be upon him)..then If the intent in tawassul here was seeking du’a from the Prophet(peace be upon him) the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) would have supplicated for him and the matter would have ended but he (peace be upon him) taught him the method of du’a for himself for the future and taught him thereby to seek a means through his essence.

No one calling to dead when he says, “O Allah I seek a means to You through a certain servant of Yours”, and he does not mean by that anything besides, “I love that servant and I believe in his virtue and righteousness, and perhaps he is beloved to You, so I seek to draw Your mercy through my relationship or love with him”. This in reality is seeking to draw the mercy of Allah Most High through one’s relationship with a pious man and his love for him. This includes the living and the dead.
Thus, if a man were to abbreviate his statement and say: “O Allah! Indeed I take a means to You through the Prophet” and does not intend thereby anything besides this meaning mentioned which is from the most obvious meanings of tawassul, then there is nothing in the Quran and Sunnah or the principles established through them that prohibits this form of tawassul. Rather it is more deserving of being permissibile than tawaassul through other good deeds, because one who seeks a means by his prayer, fasting or charity, it may be tainted by the blemish of vanity in his good deed. As for one who seeks a means through his love for the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) or through the love of his Companions (Allah be pleased with them), for example, this is closer to humility, as it is akin to saying: “I do not have an action good enough for me to seek nearness to You by means of it, but I love these brought close [to You], and by the means of this love I seek Your help and I seek to draw Your mercy.”
This is How abbas (Ra) prayed himself , lets see
He (Ra) prayed in these words to Allah
اللهم إنه لم ينزل بلاء إلا بذنب , ولم يكشف إلا بتوبة , وقد توجه القوم بي إليك لمكاني من نبيك
O Allah,calamity (and trouble) comes as a result of sin and only penitence lifts this calamity, and the people,because of my relation with Your Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), have offered me to You as a means of seeking Your help, and these hands of ours, besmeared in sins, are before You and our foreheads are bowed down with penitence. So give us rain
Ibn Hajar ‘Asqalānī narrated it in Fath-ul-bārī (2:497)
Subkī, Shifā’-us-siqām fī ziyārat khayr-il-anām (p.128)
Qastallānī, al-Mawāhib-ul-laduniyyah (4:277)
Zurqānī in his Commentary (11:152)

 

[Ershad]

i am talking about this hadith;

Tabarani, in his "al-Mu'jam al saghir", reports a hadith from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf that a man repeatedly visited Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him) concerning something he needed, but Uthman paid no attention to him or his need. The man met Ibn Hunayf and complained to him about the matter - this being after the death (wisal) of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar - so Uthman ibn Hunayf, who was one of the Companions who collected hadiths and was learned in the religion of Allah, said: "Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then come to the mosque, perform two rak'as of prayer therein, and say:

'O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I turn through you to my Lord, that He may fulfill my need,' and mention your need. Then come so that I can go with you [to the caliph Uthman]." So the man left and did as he had been told, then went to the door of Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him), and the doorman came, took him by the hand, brought him to Uthman ibn Affan, and seated him next to him on a cushion. 'Uthman asked, "What do you need?" and the man mentioned what he wanted, and Uthman accomplished it for him, then he said, "I hadn't remembered your need until just now," adding, "Whenever you need something, just mention it." Then, the man departed, met Uthman ibn Hunayf, and said to him, "May Allah reward you! He didn't see to my need or pay any attention to me until you spoke with him." Uthman ibn Hunayf replied, "By Allah, I didn't speak to him, but I have seen a blind man come to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) and complain to him of the loss of his eyesight. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Can you not bear it?' and the man replied, 'O Messenger of Allah, I do not have anyone to lead me around, and it is a great hardship for me.' The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) told him, 'Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then pray two rak'as of prayer and make the supplications.'" Ibn Hunayf went on, "By Allah, we didn't part company or speak long before the man returned to us as if nothing had ever been wrong with him."

'The account has been classified as authenticated (SAHIH) by Baihaqi, Mundhiri, and Haythami."

Brother, do you know regarding the authenticity of the story involving 'Uthmaan ibn 'Affaan before the du'a? Shaykh Al-Albaani (Rahimahullah) who was a Muhaddith explained in his treatise why this story is weak and contrary to what is authentically reported.

You can download the treatise here. I have also attached it with my post. In the treatise you will find his interesting discussion on tawassul- Its types and rulings, All Praise be to Allah.

To quote from it the essential things related to this hadeeth, he says:

At-Tabaraanee said: "No one reports it from Rawh ibn al-Qaasim except Shabeeb ibn Sa'eed, Aboo Sa'eed al-Makkee and he is reliable. He is also the one whom Ahmad ibn Shabeeb narrates from, narrating from his father, from Yoonus ibn Yazeed al-Aylee. This hadeeth is also reported from Shu'bah from Aboo Ja'far al-Khatamee, whose name is 'Umayr ibn Yazeed, and he is reliable. It is reported from Shu'bah only by 'Uthmaan ibn 'Umar ibn Faaris, and the hadeeth is Saheeh."

There is no doubt about the authenticity of the hadeeth, but rather what needs to be checked here is this story which is reported only by Shabeeb ibn Sa'eed as pointed out by at -Tabaraanee. Indeed this narrator Shabeeb has been criticised, particularly with regard to what Ibn Wahb narrates from him. Then we find here that there are also others who narrate from him: Ismaa'eel and Ahmad, the two sons of the aforementioned Shabeeb ibn Sa'eed. As for Ismaa'eel, then I do not know him and I do not find anyone who mentions him. Indeed they neglect him to the point that they do not even mention him amongst those who narrate from his father, as opposed to his brother Ahmad since he is sadooq (generally acceptable). As for his father Shabeeb then what they say about him is, in conclusion, that he was reliable, yet having weakness in his memory, except for those narrations reported from him by his son Ahmad which he himself reports from Yoonus in particular in which case he is a proof. Adh-Dhahabee said in al-Meezaan: "Sadooq (generally acceptable) who makes errors, Ibn 'Adiyy mentions him in his Kaamil and said: "He has a written manuscript copy of hadeeth from Yoonus ibn Yazeed which is fine. Ibn Wahb reports some weak and reprehensible things from him. Ibnul-Madeenee said: He used to go to Egypt for trade and his written narrations are reliable and are written down from him by his son Ahmad." Ibn 'Adiyy said: "Shabeeb sometimes made slips and errors when he narrated from memory. I hope that he did not do this intentionally. Then when his son Ahmad narrates from him with the ahaadeeth of Yoonus, then it is as if it is a different Yoonus, meaning: he makes them good." So this speech means that the ahaadeeth of this narrator Shabeeb are all right with two conditions:

(i) That they are narrated from him by his son Ahmad, and (ii) That Shabeeb is narrating from Yoonus. The reason bei ng that he possessed the written manuscript of Yoonus ibn Yazeed, as Ibn Abee Haatim says in al-Jarh wat-Ta'deel, from his father (2/1/359), so when he narrates from his books then he narrates well, but when he narrates from his memory he makes mistakes as Ibn 'Adiyy says.

Therefore the saying of al-Haafidh in his biography in at-Taqreeb: "His ahaadeeth are all right when they are narrated from him by his son Ahmad, but not when narrated from him by Ibn Wahb," is deficient, since it gives the impression that all the narrations of his son Ahmad from him are acceptable.
This is however not the case. Rather this is conditional on the fact that they are ahaadeeth which he himself narrates from Yoonus, as has preceded. This is further evidenced by the fact that al-Haafidh himself has elsewhere indicated this condition. Indeed he mentions Shabeeb amongst those narrators used by al-Bukhaaree who have been criticised, found in the introduction to Fathul- Baaree (p. 133), then he rejects this criticism, after having quoted those who declare him reliable and mentioning the saying of Ibn 'Adiyy about him, saying:
"I say: al-Bukhaaree brings his ahaadeeth which were reported from him by his son, which he himself reports from Yoonus, but he does not bring anything which he himself reports from other than Yoonus, and he does not quote anything which Ibn Wahb reports from him." So here he, rahimahullaah, gives an indication that criticism is valid about Shabeeb when he is reporting from other than Yoonus, even if they are things which his son Ahmad reports from him. This is what is correct as we have just explained, and in light of it we should understand what he says in at-Taqreeb in order to harmonise between his words and to avoid creating contradictions.

So when this is clear the weakness of this story will be manifest, and the lack of its suitability as a proof. Then a further weakness is apparent to me in it, and it is the presence of conflicting reports from Ahmad ibn Shabeeb. The hadeeth is also reported by Ibn as-Sunnee in 'Amalul-Yawm wal-Laylah (p.202) and by al-Haakim (1/526) byway of three chains from Ahmad ibn Shabeeb without any mention of the attached story. It is likewise reported by 'Awn ibn 'Umaarah al- Basree: Rawh ibn al -Qaasim narrated to us with it. This is reported by al-
Haakim. Then even though this narrator 'Awn is weak, yet still his narration is to be given precedence over the narration of Shabeeb because he is agreed with in it by Shu'bah and Hammaad ibn Salamah, from Aboo Ja'far al -Khatamee. (Translator's note: i.e. none of them report the additional story involving 'Uthmaan ibn 'Affaan.)


So in conclusion this story is weak and contrary to what is authentically reported due to three reasons:

(i)The weakness of the memory of the one who is alone in reporting it;

(ii)and the conflicting reports from him and;

(iii)his contradicting those reliable narrators who do not mention it in the
hadeeth.

A single one of these reasons would be sufficient to negate this story, so how about when all three are found together?

 

[Ershad]

This includes the living and the dead.
This is How abbas (Ra) prayed himself , lets see
He (Ra) prayed in these words to Allah
اللهم إنه لم ينزل بلاء إلا بذنب , ولم يكشف إلا بتوبة , وقد توجه القوم بي إليك لمكاني من نبيك
O Allah,calamity (and trouble) comes as a result of sin and only penitence lifts this calamity, and the people,because of my relation with Your Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), have offered me to You as a means of seeking Your help, and these hands of ours, besmeared in sins, are before You and our foreheads are bowed down with penitence. So give us rain
Ibn Hajar ‘Asqalānī narrated it in Fath-ul-bārī (2:497)
Subkī, Shifā’-us-siqām fī ziyārat khayr-il-anām (p.128)
Qastallānī, al-Mawāhib-ul-laduniyyah (4:277)
Zurqānī in his Commentary (11:152)

Why didn't Umar (radiallahu anhu) make the du'a himself through status and honour or his essence like you say? Why did he go to Al-Abbas (Radiallahu anhu). It is because he was alive. Umar (radiallahu anhu) sought the supplication of al-'Abbas (radiallahu anhu) as tawassul, not the status or honour of the Prophet ?

Imaam Ibn Qudaamah al-Maqdisee who wrote the largest book of Hanbalee 'Al-Mughnee'. He says in it (2/295): "It is recommended to seek rain by means of one who is seen to be righteous, since that will mean that the supplication is more liable to be answered. Indeed 'Umar sought rain by means of al-'Abbaas, the uncle of the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam), Ibn 'Umar said: "In the year of drought and destruction 'Umar sought rain by means of al-'Abbaas,. He said: '0 Allaah this is the uncle of Your Prophet and we turn to You by means of him, so grant us rain,' and Allaah quickly granted them rain." It is also reported that Mu'aawiyah went out to pray for rain, so when he sat upon the minbar he said: "Where is Yazeed ibn al-Aswad al-Jurashee?" So Yazeed stood up, and Mu'aawiyah supplicated and sat Yazeed at his feet, then he said: "0 Allaah we use the best of us and the most excellent of us, Yazeed ibn al-Aswad to intercede on our behalf," then he said: "0 Yazeed raise up your hands," so he raised up his hands and supplicated to Allaah, the Most High. So large clouds like a shield appeared from the west, and the wind blew and they were blessed with such an amount of rain that they could hardly reach their homes. Another time ad -Dahhaak also sought rain by means of him."

In the first hadeeth, Umar (radiallahu anhu) asks al-Abbaas (radiallahu anhu) to supplicate for rain. In the second, Mu'aawiyah (radiallahu anhu) uses Yazeed in al-Aswad (radiallahu anhu). You have to note, that they both were alive at that time and none of them used words like "we ask using the status or honour of the Prophet or we ask through your Prophet" etc. So, there is no proof for using the dead as a means. Moreover, none of them went to graves of anyone and made supplication, as it is done today (and mentioned in Darul uloom Deoband fatwa).

Shaykh Al-Albaani continues saying:

So it is very clear from the words of Ibn Qudaamah that what he means by the istisbfaa' reported in the hadeeth about the Rain-Prayer is that the ruler of the Muslims should request someone from the people of knowledge and piety to supplicate along with the Muslims, turning to their Lord, the One free of all-imperfections, that He should remove distress from His Believing servants.

 

[uniqueskates]

Assalaamualaikum,

Sorry for interrupting the flow of the thread. But couldn't help myself from asking this : -

From a layman's point of view. How does praying to idols differ from praying through great saints who are already dead? Because both can't listen/can't talk/ don't have life and so on.

Peace.

 

[Ershad]

Assalaamualaikum,

Sorry for interrupting the flow of the thread. But couldn't help myself from asking this : -

From a layman's point of view. How does praying to idols differ from praying through great saints who are already dead? Because both can't listen/can't talk/ don't have life and so on.

Peace.

Wa'alaykkum assalam,

Brother, we are all laymen here.. Exactly, to our basic intelligence and what we know from Qur'an, this is not right. In fact, this type of worship gradually manifested into shirk and that is how shirk came into existence. For ten qarn (centuries or generations), between Adam (Alayhi salam) and Nuh (Alayhi salam), people were living according to Islam. Then, Shirk came. It came by the way of people sitting near the graves of the Pious people before them. At first no-one worshipped them, but it was very good tool for Shaytaan and with Generations, he diverted them to Shirk using these things.

Allah says in Qur'an:

And they conspired an immense conspiracy. And said, 'Never leave your gods and never leave Wadd or Suwa' or Yaghuth and Ya'uq and Nasr. (Surat Nuh : 22-23)

In this treatise by Shaykh Al-Albaani he says:

It has been related by a group from the Salaf (Pious Predecessors), in many narrations, that these five deities were righteous worshippers. However, when they died, Shaytaan (Satan) whispered into their people to retreat and sit at their graves. Then Shaytaan whispered to those who came after them that they should take them as idols, beautifying to them the idea that you will be reminded of them and thereby follow them in righteous conduct. Then Shaytaan suggested to the third generation that they should worship these idols besides Allaah - the most high - and he whispered to them that this is what their forefathers used to do!!!

And he says:

Ibn 'Abbas relates: "Indeed these five names of righteous men from the people of Nooh. When they died Shataan whispered to their people to make statues of them and to place these statues in their places of gathering as a reminder of them, so they did this. However, none from amongst them worshipped these statues, until when they died and the purpose of the statues was forgotten. Then (the next generation) began to worship them." Related by al-Bukhaaree (8/534)

 

[azad.ahmed]

Brother, do you know regarding the authenticity of the story involving 'Uthmaan ibn 'Affaan before the du'a? Shaykh Al-Albaani (Rahimahullah) who was a Muhaddith explained in his treatise why this story is weak and contrary to what is authentically reported.

As for the Authenticity of the Ahadith in question it is accepted as Saheeh by the many Muhaditheen.Shaykh Al-Albaani (Rahimahullah) is the first person to claim that Shabib is a weak narrator in history of Islam .Other Imams [rah] of classical Islam who consider Shabib to be reliable are
Ali al-Madini consider Shabib to be Reiabe

Muhammad ibn Yahyà al-Dhuhali consider Shabib to be Reliable,

al-Daraqutni consider Shabib to be Reliable

al-Tabaràni consider Shabib to be Reliable

Ibn Hibbàn consider Shabib to be Reliable

al-Hàkim consider Shabib to be Reliable

Abu Zur‘ah consider Shabib to be Reliable

Abu Hàtim consider Shabib to be Reliable

al-Nasà’i consider Shabib to be Reliable
and many other.....

there is no stipulation that his narration be from Yunus ibn Yazid in order to be authentic (sahih) .
Ibn al-Madini affirms that his book was authentic [ in Raf‘ al-Minarah fi Takhrij Ahadith al-Tawassul wa al-Ziyàrah , pp. 99-100, that the accuracy ( ضبط ) of a narrator [which along with integrity (‘adàlah / عدالة ) establishes reliability] is of two kinds: accuracy in respect of his memory ( الحفظ ضبط), and accuracy in respect of what he has written down (dabt al-kitàbah). ‘Ali al-Madini first declares that Shabib is utterly reliable (thiqah) without stating any condition. Thereafter, he reinforces that by stating that his book is also authentic without making his reliability conditional on being from that book.

 

[azad.ahmed]

i don't want to discuss it further Tawassul is a fiqhi matter and many Ulema including imam shaf'i ,imam malik,imam ahmed,imam abu hanifa made tawassul through prophet(peace be upon him). they are more near to era of Sahaba and Tabein .
May Allah gives us good knowledge that will lead us to success in this life and the life after.(Ameen)

 

[thariq2005]

Assalamu `alaykum. I haven't read all the posts on this thread but, if both sides that are arguing understood the point of discussion properly, with an open mind, there is not much to disagree on (with regards to the issue discussed at hand):

1) The issue of Tawassul: this is an legitimate difference of opinion amongst the Fuqaha' and even the Hanabilah have more than one view on this matter. Ibn Taymiyyah, however, was of the opinion that it is bid`ah (which I personally incline towards more)

Now, when discussing the issue of Tawassul, we need to understand what exactly does Tawassul mean (as many deviants, like the brelwis, have a corrupted understanding of it).

Azad.Ahmed: When you say Tawassul is permissible, do you mean to say that a person makes the du`a to ALLAH 'through' the Prophet :saw2: as such: "O Allah, through the station of Your Prophet...", if yes- then there is a difference of opinion on this and this is a fiqhi matter. This is the tawassul that classical scholars meant.

If you mean by Tawassul (as brelwis understand, and I really hope you don't mean this) that it means you can make du`a to the Prophet :saw2: directly. Like: "Ya Rasul Allah, give us food..." or along those lines. This would be shirk by the consensus of all the scholars.

If you meant the first, then this is not a major issue. And some of the classical scholars held the view it is bid`ah like Ibn Taymiyyah, but again as I mentioned this is a difference of opinion in Fiqh and does not need to be fought over.

2) Secondly, Deobandis are, generally, very staunch against shirk and bid`ah- that is why they refute the Brelwis. So, the deobandis, generally, never ever promote anything such as grave worship or even mawlid al-nabawi etc. And I hope Azad.Ahmad will agree with me on this.

3) The issue I have against deobandis is the fact that they propogate the Ash`ari/Maturidi Creed (at least most of them anyways). This is where the problem comes in and I believe the pious Salaf were far away from such a creed.

That's all for now

Jazakumullahu khayra
Wassalamu `alaykum

 

[Itqan Ullah]

Assalamu `alaykum. I haven't read all the posts on this thread but, if both sides that are arguing understood the point of discussion properly, with an open mind, there is not much to disagree on (with regards to the issue discussed at hand):

1) The issue of Tawassul: this is an legitimate difference of opinion amongst the Fuqaha' and even the Hanabilah have more than one view on this matter. Ibn Taymiyyah, however, was of the opinion that it is bid`ah (which I personally incline towards more)

Now, when discussing the issue of Tawassul, we need to understand what exactly does Tawassul mean (as many deviants, like the brelwis, have a corrupted understanding of it).

Azad.Ahmed: When you say Tawassul is permissible, do you mean to say that a person makes the du`a to ALLAH 'through' the Prophet :saw2: as such: "O Allah, through the station of Your Prophet...", if yes- then there is a difference of opinion on this and this is a fiqhi matter. This is the tawassul that classical scholars meant.

If you mean by Tawassul (as brelwis understand, and I really hope you don't mean this) that it means you can make du`a to the Prophet :saw2: directly. Like: "Ya Rasul Allah, give us food..." or along those lines. This would be shirk by the consensus of all the scholars.

If you meant the first, then this is not a major issue. And some of the classical scholars held the view it is bid`ah like Ibn Taymiyyah, but again as I mentioned this is a difference of opinion in Fiqh and does not need to be fought over.

2) Secondly, Deobandis are, generally, very staunch against shirk and bid`ah- that is why they refute the Brelwis. So, the deobandis, generally, never ever promote anything such as grave worship or even mawlid al-nabawi etc. And I hope Azad.Ahmad will agree with me on this.

3) The issue I have against deobandis is the fact that they propogate the Ash`ari/Maturidi Creed (at least most of them anyways). This is where the problem comes in and I believe the pious Salaf were far away from such a creed.

That's all for now

Jazakumullahu khayra
Wassalamu `alaykum

Asslamaliekum,^Now this most balanced viewpoint of the Issue, 1000 likes. (although I personally disagree tawassul through Status/Honour or what is call as "Sadqa-e-Tufayl" in Urdu can be considered a legitimate difference even after recognizing the difference among scholars on this, but it might be due to my own Jahl and I'll prefer to stay on safe side anyways)

I am also disappointed that mufti ibn adam took back his earlier fatwa on tawassul and issued this new one opening doors to shirky tawassul since he didn't mention anywhere about shirky tawassul and proponents of istighatha/istishfa (whatever you call it) would make no difference between two since according them both follow same mechanism.

As far as fatwa from IslamQA is concerned shaikh only criticized their ashariism/muturdism not sufism niether he said "we have discussed ruling on sufis here and here", I think it was quite balanced.

I would like to know about their view on benefiting from grave (Fatwa which bro Ershad posted) what kind of "benefit" is it? and why can only shuyookh get the benefit while laymen will be led astray? (I mean whats the mechanism over here?). It would be awesome if someone like bro Harris Hammam could elaborate. Jazakallahu Khairan.