Do you wish to live in a world devoid of christians

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
Hello Sister Cariad,

Allow me to be the first to answer. But before I do so, I would like to address one point first. This is where differ in opinion and context, but it is an important point nevertheless. In Islam, we believe the Old Testament Case Law is binding on Christianity and those Christians and Christian communities that accept this and live by it are those Muslims would welcome the most. Christians reject this argument, but I wanted you to be aware of it.

If the Old Testament is still relevant or compulsory for Christians, then logically it must even more so for Muslims. No, since the Qur'an supersedes all former scriptures and the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon him) supersedes all previous Prophets including Jesus, Moses and everyone else and his law/message similarly revokes that of his predecessors as well.

So why should Christianity follow the Mosaic law when Islam has replaced it, because if you accepted Islamic law, you would be Muslims and all differences between us would cease, but with Christianity following the Mosaic law it is not the same. The reason is (and you will not accept this as a Christian) that all Jewish Prophets including Moses appeared before Jesus and his followers should in that sense follow the Mosaic law as Jesus brought no new law himself.

I know Christianity says Paul's interpretation is that the death of Jesus abolished the law, but we Muslims reject that and hence it is still binding and while Jesus is revered by Islam as a Prophet, since his Prophethood brought no new law, his followers are still duty bound to follow the Mosaic law; which was still in force then and remained so until the advent of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him).
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Thank you for your post Brother, it does not however address my question. A Christian is one who follows Yeshua, and worships God as Yeshua so taught us to. So there is no "christian" who follows Old Testament case law but except for how Yeshua fulfilled that law for us. So, Yeshua did in a sense bring a "new Law". But I did not wish to discuss the verities of Bible law or how Yeshua fulfilled it for us. Muslims see themselves as still under the law, yet there is no salvation there. In the law.

Paul's teaching does not mean Yeshua abolished the law, but that Yeshua fulfilled the Law.. Which Yeshua claimed Himself that He was the fulfilment of the law. What new law did your prophet Mohammed bring? I mean how is your sharia different from the Mosaic Law?

So given that all christians are those that follow Yeshua (leaving the red herring of the law aside for a moment ;) ) would the majority of muslims (IYHO) prefer the world to have no Christians?
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
Thank you for your post Brother, it does not however address my question. A Christian is one who follows Yeshua, and worships God as Yeshua so taught us to. So there is no "christian" who follows Old Testament case law but except for how Yeshua fulfilled that law for us. So, Yeshua did in a sense bring a "new Law". But I did not wish to discuss the verities of Bible law or how Yeshua fulfilled it for us. Muslims see themselves as still under the law, yet there is no salvation there. In the law.

Paul's teaching does not mean Yeshua abolished the law, but that Yeshua fulfilled the Law.. Which Yeshua claimed Himself that He was the fulfilment of the law. What new law did your prophet Mohammed bring? I mean how is your sharia different from the Mosaic Law?

So given that all christians are those that follow Yeshua (leaving the red herring of the law aside for a moment ;) ) would the majority of muslims (IYHO) prefer the world to have no Christians?

If as you say we should leave aside the issue of law, then my answer is the same as it is for Christianity towards other religions, I would prefer that we can coexist together harmoniously. Whether that is plausible either realistically or spiritually is another matter.

Second, I think we have a difference of opinion on what Jesus taught, what Jesus believed, what Jesus brought and what Jesus wanted his followers to accept and adhere to and finally what he did before his departure. Therefore the ideas you have to the above are not the same as Muslims, hence the disparity and inability of both Christians and Muslims to arrive at the same conclusions. Since we have separate ideas on the above it means Muslims reject your assertions just as you reject ours.

Third, the Shariah of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him), in the Qur'an and the Ahadith [sayings, teachings, commands, etc] is the new law that Muslims live by. This is not the time or place to discuss the differences between Mosaic law and Shariah law, so I will leave that for a separate discussion for now.

Fourth, just as Jesus taught you about worshipping God, the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) taught us our salvation lies in following the law he was commissioned with and it has the same purpose; to please, serve and worship God.

Fifth, I believe that as long as a Christian follows his/her own law, as set and enshrined in the NT as well, Muslims can live with that. It is the secular Christian we will have some problems with. You don't have to be religious as such, as long as you live with and accept the teachings of your own scripture, theoretically you are acceptable to us as we may be to you.
 

Fareed490

Junior Member

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
If we lived in Dunyah without Christians, I would have been doomed to the Hell Fire; I was a Christian, and Allah was Merciful to me in allowing me to take Kalima Shaada. Where does Daw'ah begin if we were all Muslims?

Brother, please don't talk like this on a forum and thread such as this one. Whatever our personal and religious convictions are for the religion we profess, we should not make sentiments that can and could offend and insult those outside them.

I am elated for you personally as a brother in Islam and I myself am further happy to be Muslim and would not want to be in any other faith, I believe it to be correct, but like any other religion including Christianity, I would not to publicly says so where it could harm others especially where it is not called for and I have not been similarly made to be placed in such a situation.

Sister Cariad is a Christian and a good natured, friendly and mature lady with honourable intentions. Just as we respect all religions, we should make both individual collective men and women from outside Islam feel respected, welcome and honoured here as well. After Islam all Allah tells us that they are our brothers and sisters in the human race; we are all from the same first parents, Adam and Eve and created, shaped, fashioned and nurtured as the best of creation by the Greatest Creator.
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
Sister Cariad and all Non Muslims on the Forum, may I take this opportunity to say a few words. Islam says Allah loves all members of His Creation and wants the best for everyone. He loves us more than our parents and the most well mannered and loving person we could ever expect to meet. Judge all religions by its creed and not always by its members, and in our case today take a step back and ignore the proliferation of another system of ugly oppression, mass hate and hysteria; the International Mass Media which seeks to destroy peace and promote hatred of one or more religion for money alone.

Islam, like all other religions, does not restrict itself to love alone. Equal to His Love for His Creation or more so is His Justice and that is where the dividing line is between Mercy and Fairness. If love itself was sufficient than there is an argument that the human race would not have been necessary to exist due to our ability to sin, reject Allah and even oppose forms of goodness and those things that work for good. The angels were created without free will, without the ability to sin and without all forms of opposition to the Creator and if love alone was good enough than no creation other than them would have sufficed.

However, Islam says Allah has created two others with a nature that can sin, that have the power to exercise free will and can if they wish reject Him and His Message. They are the Human Race and the Jinn (a spirit world), the first are His Greatest Creation and the one He has honoured above all for all time. While the second creation are also important, space and relevance does not permit me to include them in this discussion, so I apologise for that.

Allah says in Ahadith [the sayings of the Prophet attributed to the words of the Creator], that if the human race could not sin, He would have replaced them with another creation that could, so that they (some, not all) could see the error of their ways, repent and ask forgiveness and He would gladly accept them. When human beings do good, He says, they are better than the Angels who are unable and incapable of sin and have no free will. If human beings do wrong deliberately and continue on that path without repentance, they are worse than the 'Shayateen', a special group of people or label attached to the most grotesque of creation among the Jinn who are capable of good, but have chosen to be evil and follow Iblis, the supreme devil, who is also a Jinn.

There is so much in Ahadith and in Qur'an which speaks of Allah's Love for then human race, but it is conditional on meeting the criterion to His Justice and total acceptance of His Message, otherwise it is oppression and a false form of love unfair on the rest of creation.

That is where His Representatives; the Prophets and His Constitution, in short the Religion He has selected and chosen for mankind to follow appears. If the Creator loves us so much, He would not send the human race to Earth without making a way for us to return to Him in a manner that is acceptable for Him to accept us into the Kingdom of Heaven and that is through His Message and Religion. Islamically, we believe Allah does not and will not appear Himself on earth to inform and teach the human race. He uses another method; He sends people like us, who live like us, have the same nature as us and the same natural needs and wants. They are named as Prophets and are the best of creation among the human race. They are human and not divine.

Just as Judaism and Christianity emphasize that Allah send His Representatives; the Prophets since the dawn of creation, we as Muslims believe His last representative was also His best and finest and it goes without saying that if that is so than the message, constitution, law, scripture and role also was suited, allocated and relevant to that purpose, meaning it was also the greatest of those sent or proceeded it and superseded it. To Muslims, that man was the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him), his scripture was the Qur'an and Ahadith and his message was Islam. In a nutshell then, that is why we as Muslims believe we are on the right path.

This then brings us to the question; what of all other religions including Christianity and Judaism. We answer, like Christians and Jews believe, not all faiths are from Allah and hence they are outside of His Mercy and Justice to accept. Everyone's sincerity and goodness from all religions (and non religions for that matter) is rewarded and accepted but they are seen in a different light. They have chosen to reject Allah (either through ignorance or deliberately), we as Muslims leave their affair with Him and Him alone; it is for Him to Judge them, not us.

As to Christianity and Judaism, another name is given to those that are adherents to these faiths and that is 'Ahlul Kitab', a respectful term and one that elevates members to a seat of honour. This term represents those who have accepted some but not of Allah's Representatives and hence are accorded the same partial privilege they have given to the Creator. The Jewish religion refuses to embrace Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon them) while Christianity rejects the latter alone, hence why Allah's Justice assigns full recognition to those who accepts all of His emissaries and choose to follow everything brought by His Last Delegate to the world; the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him). That is our belief and that is why we believe Islam is that culmination of closure both in Apostleship, Divine Law, Scripture and entry to Allah's love, Mercy and most importantly His Justice.
 
Top