Does Time exist??

[K-A-K]

And brother cursing times doesn`t mean that we CURSE it. People do say, oh loooook, times have changed. this day was a bad one. or time isn`t being good to me, etc etc. It isn`t time that made this world as it is today. Time is still the same , but we as human beings have changed. That`s why we cannot curse time. Time is Time. It is our collective past that has altered our collective present.

 

[strive-may-i]

so Time is relative!every culture counts the Time in a different way.and what is making us older everyday more?The "Time" or the biologycal reactions in our bodies?I feel strange by thinking a lot about this matter.

But whats making us older is our nearing the expiry date of our existence here on earth in bodily form. That should be sufficient for a believer I guess.

And Almighty clearly says This world is but an illusion

اعْلَمُوا أَنَّمَا الْحَيَاةُ الدُّنْيَا لَعِبٌ وَلَهْوٌ وَزِينَةٌ وَتَفَاخُرٌ بَيْنَكُمْ وَتَكَاثُرٌ فِي الْأَمْوَالِ وَالْأَوْلَادِ كَمَثَلِ غَيْثٍ أَعْجَبَ الْكُفَّارَ نَبَاتُهُ ثُمَّ يَهِيجُ فَتَرَاهُ مُصْفَرًّا ثُمَّ يَكُونُ حُطَامًا وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ وَمَغْفِرَةٌ مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانٌ وَمَا الْحَيَاةُ الدُّنْيَا إِلَّا مَتَاعُ الْغُرُورِ
57:20 (Picktall) Know that the life of this world is only play, and idle talk, and pageantry, and boasting among you, and rivalry in respect of wealth and children; as the likeness of vegetation after rain, whereof the growth is pleasing to the husbandman, but afterward it drieth up and thou seest it turning yellow then it becometh straw. And in the Hereafter there is grievous punishment, and (also) forgiveness from Allah and His good pleasure, whereas the life of the world is but matter of illusion.

We are bound by this world. Bound to the duration of our stay here. The events are progressing, we better keep track of time. Without a sense of time, no progress happens, and nothing could be achieved!

Is time absolute or relative is asking along lines is there an absolute truth. Verily good, to understand and know the beauty of Almighty's creation better. Some say we cant measure time, but define what time it is now, others say the opposite !!

 

[strive-may-i]

Good points !

3) Nothing special happens when light or any particle travels faster than speed of light. Agels travel faster than speed of light all the time. They do not go back in time. They get there on time (very quickly) like to save prophet Abrahim (pbuh).

Its said photon itself does not experience time. A photon starts at source and next appears before our eye and disappears. End of story. Now don't ask me who said it, recollect a speaker mention that.

3) ...... I am interested in knowing specifically, did Allah said he created TIME.

Almighty says he created the night and day, Almighty uses words, which to this day we identify in translated words as days and Years. But explicitly "Time is created" am not sure...

4) Miracle of Isra & Maraj happened not because of TIME but Allah is able to stop all motion of all the matter he created but allowed Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) to move (along with his ride and others, etc)..........
Allah knows best!

Most who believe in The supreme power of Almighty, do understand and completely agree, Almighty is capable of Miracle of Isra & Meeraj. Now for the naysayers, lets ignore them, because the mechanism possibly would never be fully understood...

And brother cursing times doesn`t mean that we CURSE it. People do say, oh loooook, times have changed. this day was a bad one. or time isn`t being good to me, etc etc. It isn`t time that made this world as it is today. Time is still the same , but we as human beings have changed. That`s why we cannot curse time. Time is Time. It is our collective past that has altered our collective present.

Yes somehow we are stuck with one word called TIME, and we have a lack of more words to differentiate it.!

And I dont recollect the book, a peer goes on to explain in detail on how a curtain is drawn before our eyes / being and what we really perceive here is an illusion, and the how and what of this curtain is explained in detail pages upon pages. Was not easy to understand anyways, was difficult to comprehend, and poor me felt its best to neither agree nor disagree what the peer has to say. I can get the name of book from same contact if any of you are interested !!!

 

[Mojah441]

TIME does not exist.

"Well, what is time then, if not a creation."
You are answering a question with a question. That is not an anwer to my question, did Allah mention he created TIME.


"Time as we know it started off with the very moment this universe started."
I don't think so! You are mixing two things; Universe and Time. You can not mix them. Yes, Universe or the matter (& energy) started when Allah ordered it. How are you bring TIME into this? Sorry, I am clueless here!


"Time happens to be an abstract creation"
By abstract mean, a tool, I agree. If you say, a creation, I am not sure (Allah forgive me if I am wrong). Since you did not mention any verse from Quran where Allah said he created TIME, you should not attibute something to someone if he is not willing to take ownership it.


"which can only be felt or perceived. And perhaps Time existed before this universe too in some other way. Or maybe it didn`t."
Feeling and perceptions have nothing to do with TIME it self.

"How can we know what existed before this universe."
We know. Allah; There is no one else. Allah told us that in Quran.


"Nevertheless, Time doesn`t exist for God, He is beyond that. It is our way to understand things."
Perfect. You knocked it down. Finally you agree with me. You said it yourself, TIME DOESNT EXIST for God. I agree. If, I may add, since it doesn't exist for GOD, it doesn't exist for us either, my friend. Just because we are creation of Allah and stuck and bound by this matter (universe), doesn't mean it is TIME. It is MATTER (& soul) that Allah created which can walk, talk and think.


"Plus, how do you know things were static when Muhammad pbuh ascended to the heavens. It is very much possible that he went with Jibrail A.S. at his speed into another dimension. This world is a multi dimensional one. The fact that we can`t see or feel all those dimensions, doesn`t mean that we cannot enter them (by God`s will). "
We know that Jibrail was with him. What difference does that make? Jibrail can and does travel faster than speed of light doesn't mean he goes back in time! Not, that I know of.
As far as dimention: We know dogs can hear higher frequncy than humans. That doesn't mean they are in a different dimention. Just because soul of dead can hear and see angels, doesn't mean they are in different dimetion. I 'belive', there is only one dimention with different characteristics.

"You said we can`t go back in time. Well we can if God wants us to. "
You are contradicting yourself about your above statment that TIME doesn't exsit for GOD.
In my opinion, Allah forgive me if I am wrong, is that
1) Allah never mentioned in Quran and there is no Hadith relatitve to TIME travel (& you also adimited that TIME does not exist for GOD), even though we have examples of superman types of powers in men like Khyzir mentioned in sura Khaf.
2) Off course Allah can cause the matter to spin backward and repeat as many times as he wants while keeping one person out of that cycle to cause the effect of TIME travel for that person (the observer). That is not what we are talking about when we say TIME travel.


"When Muhammad saww. was showed samples of people from jannah and Jaheem, how do you know he wasn`t exactly taken into future and then back into the present time."
He may have shown the soul of them not actual person.

"Science already talks about wormhole theories! "
Science is also self correcting when it proves it self wrong.

 

[K-A-K]

Brother, your views are different than mine - I do not mind that. We're just sharing our view points. You obviously have the right to accept or reject my ideas. And I do not say that my thoughts about the universe are ABSOLUTELY TRUE. No, they're not. They are just guesses and feeble attempts to understand things better; i hope to know more after i die, inshAllah. I guess our questions will be answered then.

Plus, i don't want to be a stuck up person - Thinking over things in only one strict way. That is not a wise thing to do. Somethings can be interpreted in multiple ways. We should have space enough for that.

"Well, what is time then, if not a creation."
You are answering a question with a question. That is not an anwer to my question, did Allah mention he created TIME.

I think you misunderstood this statement. I am not answering it with a question. To me Time is a creation, i already said that. I am asking you actually. If time is not a creation , as you said, then what is it?? (this was a rhetorical question). The only uncreated entity/being (i do not have a proper word) is God Himself. Anything other than Him is created. So time i.e. the ongoing feeling of passing moments automatically becomes a creation.

And I believe that Time does exist for God too except He is not bound by it. It is His creation for us. He is beyond this universe/cosmos whatever you want to call it. Time only exists within this realm. Not outside it. So how can He be bound by time when He isn't a part of it?

As far as dimention: We know dogs can hear higher frequncy than humans. That doesn't mean they are in a different dimention. Just because soul of dead can hear and see angels, doesn't mean they are in different dimetion. I 'belive', there is only one dimention with different characteristics.

I never said that DOGS are a part of another dimension. And dimension does not correspond to the world of senses. It is much more than that. And don't be so sure that there is only one dimension. When Allah SWT warns us of the shayaateen that they can see us from where we can't see them, how do you know He is not talking about another dimension? I don't say that He is strictly talking about another dimension, but it could very much be another dimension! I just do not know enough. I think we should never be so sure about things that are beyond human understanding. I only want to share my thoughts with all of you with the hope that someone might agree with me. Or i may learn new things. I am not telling you to accept what i'm saying. I just want to share.

"You said we can`t go back in time. Well we can if God wants us to. "
You are contradicting yourself about your above statment that TIME doesn't exsit for GOD.

I am not contradicting. Time that we feel doesn't exist for Him. however, if He wills, He has the ability to make us move backwards and forwards in the time frame we know. He is Omnipotent. And the samples of human beings could've been souls. And Muhammad pbuh could also have travelled in the future and shown real beings. I never said that my thoughts are 100% true. i said there is a possibility of its truth, not that it is the TRUTH. So you can't be sure about them being souls too!

you're misunderstanding my approach, i guess. I understand that we can never truly understand everything. Our minds are finite.

Plus, time and again, i have said that time as we know it is an illusion. A Creation nonetheless. It doesn't exist as per our ideas but it does exist in another way. We just do not know how. Now don't say that this is a contradiction. it is not. I maintain that Time does exist but not in the year/month/week etc form. Time is much more than that. However, we have reduced its meaning to only that. That is what causes the real problem and we end up debating over such things.

Brother, obviously God existed before Big Bang. He is the Reality, the First! Duh. What i meant by that statement was, there is a possibility of Him creating more things before Big Bang. Did such things exist before Big Band? yes/no. it is a 50/50 chance. We just do not know enough. Except we want to act that we know too much!

Time is abstract in the sense that we feel it. The way we feel love, hatred, etc. It doesn't exist physically but in our minds it does. And everything we feel, hear, or perceive is a created thing. Since God is the Only Uncreated One, Time that we feel is a creation. (atleast for me, God knows best).

You are at the liberty to accept or reject my views. Its just that our views of somethings should be a bit flexible. And I stress that these are my views about the world. They can and cannot be true. And same goes for your views brother. They can and cannot be true. It is only God who knows everything. What we try to infer from things are just feeble attempts. They aren't the absolute truth.

 

[Mojah441]

TIME does not exist

I was just sharing my thoughts too for the purpose of debate. I don't mean to impose it on anyone. That is what you do when debating. That is why I labeled it debate. Off course I am flexible. We can agree to disagree. I will leave it that if no one as any more input.

Allah knows best.

 

[K-A-K]

Sure Brother! :] Waslam

Allah Knows Best.

 

[mufakkir]

Salaam Alaikum,

It appears this discussion is in danger of heading towards elements of the ghaib and so we must be careful of our statments.

Doubtless, the Mi'raj was an immense miracle, but to delve into its full reality and juxtaposing this with the issue of time is unwise.

Suffice to say that those who reject Time as being a created phenomena will do well to obtain a copy of Lum'atul I'tiqaad by Ibn Qudama Al Maqdisi. If i remember correctly, in the English explanation of the book by Shaikh Ibn Uthaimeen, there is a footnote in which he gives some details on the issue of Time and the belief of Ahlus Sunnah concerning it. It is there that you will also find the full hadith i quoted earlier; namely, 'do not curse Time for verily Allah is the owner of Time'. As i recall, the explanation was that Allah created Time as He is the owner of it. Anything which He creates He owns!

The belief in Time as being Makhlooq allows us to explain matters, which are otherwise very confusing, easily. Allah created Time; therefore He is beyond its limitations, whilst we are bound by its created phenomena.

Was Salaam

 

[hayat84]

But whats making us older is our nearing the expiry date of our existence here on earth in bodily form. That should be sufficient for a believer I guess.

brother,you're right,but sometimes the Time for a newborn finishes before he can open his eyes to the life.Allah gives life and death,but Time has no influence over a body which isn't still grown up,isn't it?
maybe Time is something that we need to make an idea of what's going on.what's the duty of Time?Allah gave us Time to count it,but everyone sees it in a different way:the prisoner maybe sees Time never passing,while a child who plays a game sees it running faster.but how we get older,maybe only Time can tell us

 

[strive-may-i]

When I made that comment, I was thinking about a still born baby too. The stillborn was destined to be thus, once its destined phase was reached, its duration of stay on earth expired, and it passed away, is how one would explain that, correct?

What has influence over a person, Time or circumstance?


An idle mind, always wishes for moments to pass away, wether its in a prison or at home. There is always something out there for a human to pick and pursue right? And about fleeting moments and slower days, its all about how involved and engaged one becomes with the surrounding events, is it not?

So during an accident or moments of sorrow it appears like time is running slow, because one wants to quickly exit from it. While one is Happy, the effect is opposite and one wishes it continue for ever..... a person who accepts all these as Allah's Khadr, when a person is content from within and is in peace with everything that happens to him/her, thats best! Because then the person stops worrying about why me, and starts working on making present better with a positive mindset, seeking mercy and wanting rewards for ones good deeds...

 

[Mojah441]

Time Does Not Exists

Let me redfine what I mean by TIME, that I say doesn't exist. It is something like a role of film on which all events occurs. And the idea, that one can go back or forth on that roll thus doing time travel.


Bro Mufakkir You are scaring us, that our discussion is heading towards elements of 'ghaib' (unseen or unknows) and we should be carefull. This is just great. Should I appolzie and promise to not talk about anything that you don't agree with or that is not already known to all humanity already? Don't bother answering

I am not douting the miracle of Mi'raj at all. Mi'raj is a miracle; I believe that (if that makes you happy). First of all, I did not bring it into discusstion. Second, I was just disputing the mentod of it (TIME vs No Time). Since no one has any evidence either way, it is my words against any one elses. How is it unwise?

If you have prof, please share it. You can't just say, "Time is a makhlooq of Allah" without a verse from the Quran or a quote from a Hadith or a science. That is not debate! So far, All I am reading is, "Yes, No, Maybe!"
"Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense."

Sis Hayat84
Again, you are mixing physical with TIME. Life and death is not dependent of TIME. Soul exists before birth and after death; body is rejoined with soul in the hearafter.

How one feels about passing of time, is just that, feelings. It has nothing to do with TIME. Just like when one is sleeping, time may seems to speed up, but it doesn't. Day happens when it happens.

Allah knowns best.
Allah forgive me if I am wrong and guide me to truth.

 

[hayat84]

Let me redfine what I mean by TIME, that I say doesn't exist. It is something like a role of film on which all events occurs. And the idea, that one can go back or forth on that roll thus doing time travel.


Bro Mufakkir You are scaring us, that our discussion is heading towards elements of 'ghaib' (unseen or unknows) and we should be carefull. This is just great. Should I appolzie and promise to not talk about anything that you don't agree with or that is not already known to all humanity already? Don't bother answering

I am not douting the miracle of Mi'raj at all. Mi'raj is a miracle; I believe that (if that makes you happy). First of all, I did not bring it into discusstion. Second, I was just disputing the mentod of it (TIME vs No Time). Since no one has any evidence either way, it is my words against any one elses. How is it unwise?

If you have prof, please share it. You can't just say, "Time is a makhlooq of Allah" without a verse from the Quran or a quote from a Hadith or a science. That is not debate! So far, All I am reading is, "Yes, No, Maybe!"
"Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense."

Sis Hayat84
Again, you are mixing physical with TIME. Life and death is not dependent of TIME. Soul exists before birth and after death; body is rejoined with soul in the hearafter.

How one feels about passing of time, is just that, feelings. It has nothing to do with TIME. Just like when one is sleeping, time may seems to speed up, but it doesn't. Day happens when it happens.

Allah knowns best.
Allah forgive me if I am wrong and guide me to truth.

Thank you for your wise words,I didn't mean to mix physical with Time.my curiousness came from watching the channel of Mecca,in which many muslims make the 7 rounds around the Ka'ba...By day and by night there is always someone who performes 'Umra,while in the remaining part of the world there is famine/war/corruption...it's my -maybe ignorant-point of view,where Time runs out of the walls of Mecca and it stops in the graet mosque...May Allah forgive my arrogance.

 

[ebulfeth]

salam alaiqom
Allah knows the best...
time is defined as difference in two sensation. this sensation is made with 5 senses of human. therefore theres no such thing like time, hours or months, days etc... additionally the sensation of time passes quick or slow is about the quickness of your brain that sense (mostly) light, sound, and other senses. besides its relative. history is a good example. some people used moon, some used sun, and some used stars etc. so that means sense of time changes for all people or civilizations. however theres destiny, the fate that controlled by Allah. simply your fate shows you the objects and subjects and your brain differs these sensation. this difference between senses is called time. for example if you go for a drink now in your house your brain will see(not your eyes because there are some people who cant see even though they have eyes), hear,touch, taste and smell. for each object your brain senses there will be difference in length. however this length of feeling(quick or slow understanding ) changes according to your fate too ( your health, morale, boredom, awarness etc. of that moment). however, since you do this in your house, your brain has already got used to objects an subjects you sense so that its likely possible that your brain sense faster so tht you might feel that the time passed quickly. in truth it was only your brain's quickness. on the other hand lets say if you come to turkey and become my guest your brain will sense slowly and carefully and try to understand everything you are not used to. so you'll feel like the meantime passes slowly. but when you get used to things and events or when you turn back everything(your fate) will be recorded in your memory. so you'll say "wow time passed so quickly!" and allthough you never forget, your brain will want to memorize only your strong feelings after some years( i mean the difference of length that your brain senses from coming to turkey to your current sensation) you'll start remembering it as a very small (but maybe important ) part in your lifetime-feelings. (P.S.: in the day of judgement Allah will make your brain memorize everything so be aware of harams. )
after lots of feelings and sensations your brain start to get wise and experienced but tired. so you feel like you are getting older. your body becomes older too. but in fact it was your fate shown you by Allah. when the dead comes close nd you get older you start to understand a bit and start to say "the life is mortal". (for more info please ask the older people in your area . ) however and most importantly your brain is something that you sense too.-you can touch it, you can see it, smell it) that means scientifically theres no time and theres no substances, materials or any objects. (remember that it says in the movie called matrix, "theres no spoon") but there is something called soul (life or atheists call it energy) which has and can only be given by Allah himself. and sometimes our souls (bio-energy) moves faster than our body and we call it dejavu.
i hope it makes clear. if there are any wrong statements its because of my simplity.
Allah knows the best.
salam alaiqom

 

[Mojah441]

Time does not exist

Let me clarify the two different concepts of time vs. TIME:

First concept of time (time in lowercase):
I agree that there is day and night. It helps us count and keep track of "time" or events. In that sense, there is past, present and future. I agree some times one "feels" time is passing fast and other times we "perceive" it slow regardless of the method we use to track it such as sun, moon, calendar, watch, hourglass or no method. This is the first concept of time, which I agree with the majority.

Second concept TIME (TIME in uppercase):
It is the extension of the first concept; call it second concept of time, which I will write with Capital letters (TIME), which states that as you travel faster and faster, close to the speed of light, TIME slows down. Some even say, at the speed of light, it stops and if you go faster than speed of light, time reverses and you end up in the past. This, second concept of TIME, is what I disagree with and say, since TIME does not exist (in ultimate reality) it cannot slow down, stop or reverse. I am challenging Einstein's theory on TIME and the concept of TIME travel. I am not challenging it with ignorance but with humbleness and open mind to learn otherwise. I am open to ideas and willing to change my mind on this if anyone has evidence to the contrary.

Why Confusion:
I think, most people think that, if I say TIME, in the second sense doesn't exists, that implies that "time" in first sense would not exist either and we start to question the first concept, purpose of time, feelings and perceptions around it, etc.
Please know that, I think, both concepts are different, separate and unique.


If you think both are same or there is only one concept of time not two, we can agree to disagree.
If you have any knowledge or evidence for or against the second concept of TIME, I would like to know.

Allah knows best.

 

[mufakkir]

Let me redfine what I mean by TIME, that I say doesn't exist. It is something like a role of film on which all events occurs. And the idea, that one can go back or forth on that roll thus doing time travel.


Bro Mufakkir You are scaring us, that our discussion is heading towards elements of 'ghaib' (unseen or unknows) and we should be carefull. This is just great. Should I appolzie and promise to not talk about anything that you don't agree with or that is not already known to all humanity already? Don't bother answering

I am not douting the miracle of Mi'raj at all. Mi'raj is a miracle; I believe that (if that makes you happy). First of all, I did not bring it into discusstion. Second, I was just disputing the mentod of it (TIME vs No Time). Since no one has any evidence either way, it is my words against any one elses. How is it unwise?

If you have prof, please share it. You can't just say, "Time is a makhlooq of Allah" without a verse from the Quran or a quote from a Hadith or a science. That is not debate! So far, All I am reading is, "Yes, No, Maybe!"
"Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense."

Sis Hayat84
Again, you are mixing physical with TIME. Life and death is not dependent of TIME. Soul exists before birth and after death; body is rejoined with soul in the hearafter.

How one feels about passing of time, is just that, feelings. It has nothing to do with TIME. Just like when one is sleeping, time may seems to speed up, but it doesn't. Day happens when it happens.

Allah knowns best.
Allah forgive me if I am wrong and guide me to truth.

Salaam 'Alaikum,

My words were not directed specifically towards you, but to the general content of this discussion which appeared to be heading to a cosideration of aspects of the unseen, i.e. the miracle of Mi'raj. I did not for once suggest that you denied this or that you were responsible for initiating it.

I agree with you in that time travel is mere sophistry, not supported by either Quran or Sunnah (or science for that matter) and yet in discussions of this nature people often refer to such an idea especially in connection with the Mi'raj. Hence my advice - and that is all that it is - to be mindful of our statments. I did not suggest you should refrain from making yours!

I am not debating with you brother; this is a mere discussion. It was my belief that Time being Makhlooq was a well known matter - clearly i was wrong! As far as i know, there is no unequivocal verse or hadith which states that Time is Makhlooq, rather it is inferred as in the hadith i quoted earlier. And that has been the explanantion of scholars past and present (as far as i know). Again, i would like to direct you to Lum'atul I'tiqad where Shaikh 'Utahimeen discusses this aspect of the creed of Ahlus Sunnah.

Was Salaam Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah