Ibn Khaldun on evolution.

Discussion in 'Islamic Discussion' started by islamdonlyway, Jul 25, 2012.

  1. islamdonlyway
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    islamdonlyway Junior Member

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    :salam2: brothers and sisters, inshallah everyone's Ramadan is going good.

    I came across a video of a 'imaam' who is also a senior lecturer at a British university. In his brief talk he claims that evolution did perhaps take place millions of years ago, and he also references to Ibn Khaldun who is regarded as one of the giant Muslim thinkers in history. Thus, it propelled me to do some research on Ibn Khaldun in regards to evolution. I started reading about him and his work on the wikipedia page, and by surprise came onto this passage that he wrote on one of his book :

    ''One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word "connection" with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the next group.
    The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.''

    Ibn Khaldun on Evolution. ref: The Muqaddimah.

    Obviesly, islam refutes evolution so how can such a statement be written by a respected muslim. I would like to hear your responses inshallah. Jzakallah.
  2. MeGladder
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    MeGladder Junior Member

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    :salam2:

    I have read this before. So, I was not surprised. :-]

    Islam does not refute evolution. If the heavens and earth were created in 6 long periods instead of a mere flash of a second, evolution (gradual development) must have occurred. Islam also does not deny the evolution of species. But according to traditional Scholars of Islam, humans did not originate from ape-like animals. Adam ('Alayhi As-Salaam) was created differently by Allah (SWT). But this does not mean that Human beings can not evolve.
  3. Itqan Ullah
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  4. Townie
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    I of course make no comment about the creation of man, but can there really be any doubt that the creatures around us have evolved due to the process of natural selection?
    What happens slowly and gradually in nature due to changing conditions, can also happen quickly, look at the development of so many breeds of dog through the process of human selection.
    Evolution isn't a guess; it's reality.
  5. islamdonlyway
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    jazakallah brother itqan ullah for shareing your links. Brother Usamah hassan has apologised and asked allah for forgiveness, inshallah allah will forgive him and guide him ameen. Besides this, i was soo surprised to read Ibn Khaldun's book and the mentioning of evolution. His regarded as one of the great muslim thinkers and his written about evolution before Darwin (originator of the theory). In addition, being a muslim it adds to the surprise....
  6. Itqan Ullah
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    Itqan Ullah Time is Running!!

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    Wai yyakum. Brother, Ibn Khaldun (as far as I have read today) was just a historian not a scholar of Aqidah. As for theory of evolution before darwin, the idea of species evolving wasn't invented by darwin, it goes back to ancient greek philosphy, http://www.iep.utm.edu/evolutio/


    Hello :), what we were talking about here was human evolving from apes as for "evolution" itself I'll Quote Sheikh Ayman bin Khalid:

  7. Townie
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    Townie Junior Member

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    The statement that the theory of evolution "...is a ridiculous theory suggesting humans were apes" sort of misses the point, in the way that Darwin's audience pilloried him over a century ago.
    The theory, whether one accepts it or not, is that men and apes descend from a common ancestor.
    I suppose you have no choice but to disbelieve this as it casts doubt on the veracity of the Quran. I think this is unfortunate, as the evidence for the theory being the truth is so great that anyone who is not obliged to disbelieve it would find it very hard not to accept it.
    Please watch this short video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oweUN-GaN3M
    Watch it with an open mind and I would very much like to know what you think about it.
  8. kashif_nazeer
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    kashif_nazeer ~~~Alhamdulillah~~~

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    :salam2:

    As for the above video...
    In the Book 'Science and Human Origins', Casey Luskin replies to this in chapter "Francis Collins, Junk DNA, and Chromosomal Fusion"

    "...[T]he evidence for chromosomal fusion isn't nearly as clear-cut as evolutionists like [Kenneth] Miller claim.

    Telomeric DNA at the ends of our chromosomes normally consists of thousands of repeats of the 6-base-pair sequence TTAGGG. But the alleged fusion point in human chromosome 2 contains far less telomeric DNA than it should if two chromosome were fused end-to-end: As evolutionary biologist Daniel Fairbanks admits, the location only has 158 repeats, and only "44 are perfect copies" of the sequence.46

    Additionally, a paper in Genome Research found that the alleged telomeric sequences we do have are "degenerated significantly" and "highly diverged from the prototypic telomeric repeats." The paper is surprised at this finding, because the fusion event supposedly happened recently -- much too recent for such dramatic divergence of sequence. Thus the paper asks: "If the fusion occurred within the telomeric repeat arrays less than ∼6 mya [million years ago], why are the arrays at the fusion site so degenerate?"47 The conclusion is this: If two chromosomes were fused end-to-end in humans, then a huge amount of alleged telomeric DNA is missing or garbled.

    Finally, the presence of telomeric DNA within a mammalian chromosome isn't highly unusual, and does not necessarily indicate some ancient point of fusion of two chromosomes. Evolutionary biologist Richard Sternberg points out that interstitial telomeric sequences (ITSs) are commonly found throughout mammalian genomes, but the telomeric sequences within human chromosome 2 are cherry-picked by evolutionists and cited as evidence for a fusion event."


  9. Townie
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    Casey Luskin is a lawyer (and not a scientist, although he seems to be a little confused about what such credentials do or don't mean) and one of the primary spokespeople for the Discovery Institute. Mr. Luskin obtained a Bachelor of Science and a Masters Degree in Earth Sciences from the University of California, San Diego, and has as a lawyer published “Intelligent Design Will Survive Kitzmiller v. Dover”, and “Alternative Viewpoints about Biological Origins as Taught in Public Schools” (published in the Journal of Church and State). His work illustrates well the actual goal of the Discovery Institute – to get religion, in the form of intelligent design creationism, into public school curricula (not to do any actual scientific research).

    Luskin is by far most notorious for his ability to distort scientific evidence to suggest conclusions completely opposite to what the evidence suggests (and curiously always to fit his preconceived notions of what it ought to show).
  10. Itqan Ullah
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    Itqan Ullah Time is Running!!

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    1. If you are copying your whole post from -Here- without providing the reference to site (or author) & verifying it credibility, proves you are biased towards your opinion. Questioning someones academics based on some random sites isn't a big deal. Here lemme do the same for you:

    Some more stuff here: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/07/ken_millers_random_and_undirec002331.html

    2. Your post does not refute his argument.

    3. Since I am a maths side student and I believe you too aren't a biology professor who has researched this issue from scratch it's pretty much pointless to debate on this subject. We are forbidden to delibrately provide inaccurate information (=lying) & speaking without knowledge. So, what I can suggest you to do is since you are interested in learning about Islam you can leave aside this topic and study others, if you deem them to be truth then automatically you can assume this to be truth aswell without having to do a lifetime of research on this issue. :)

    Thank you for you response anyways, and I apologize if anything I said seem rude or hurtful to you. May Allah (swt) guide you to truth.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Townie
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    Let's agree that we are both biased, thank you for your reply
  12. islamdonlyway
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    jzakallah khair brothers for the responses. I guess we slightly moved away from the topic, as the main theme was of Ibn Khaldun's opinion on evolution. Besides, as a muslim i do not believe in evolution from ape to man. Yes evolution does occur on a cellular level but not from species. But as brother 'townie' claimed in his post that the 'Evidence is overwhelming' this definetly sets a massive challenge to creationists. The scariest thing of all is that evolution is being taught in school's as if it's a fact and when you watch most scientific documentaries the scientists on them always refer to evolution as if its a fact.

    But ofcourse this does not mean its a fact, but rather it has set a challenge to us creationist to challenge them and dismantle their theory.
  13. Absolute truth
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    Absolute truth لا إله إلا الله

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  14. Townie
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    We arrive at Absolute Truth only when we are able to divest ourselves of all the baggage that we accrete when we live our imperfect lives.
    It is reassuring to think that people who lived before us were lucky enough to receive messages from heaven that told us how to live and behave. But what if they didn't? Would that change the way you live and behave? Would that mean you felt able to rape and pillage your way around your community?
    Of course not. People who do that in our society are stoned to death (if you happen to live in a stone age society), or locked away, if you happen to live in an advanced society.
    Unfortunately there is no way to dismantle the theory of evolution, because it is true. Start by understanding what the Theory in the Theory of Gravity and the Theory in the Theory of Evolution actually means.
  15. Perseveranze
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    Asalaamu Alaikum,

    The claim that Ibn Khaldan is talking about evolution as we know it today is actually false, and usually comes from the mouth of someone who hasn't read the original arabic or understands the full context.

    What you're talking about is a misrepresentation of what he meant, he wasn't talking about evolution in the sense that you understand it. Read the following from people who have read the original arabic and understand the context;

    People who keep saying that Ibn Khaldun meant "ape evolved to man" are just slandering him. May Allah(swt) clear their misunderstandings and forgive them.
  16. MeGladder
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    السلام عليكم

    It can be easily refuted as even the theory of evolution does not say humans evolved from monkeys. But it's a bit rude to include Muslims who support evolution in the inverted commas. This (the claim that Ibn Khaldun supports evolution of human) could well stem from their misunderstanding.
  17. Perseveranze
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    Walaikum Asalaam,

    But people try to use what they see as an "implication" to what he meant. They like to use the vagueness to believe he's referring to evolution (whether monkey or not, the "evolved" part is the issue here).

    But more importantly, we should clear his name from the falsehood that's been attributed to him, which is that Humans evolved from a sub-human creature. - Something which he never said.

    I believe it was Atheists who first made the claim (his book is famous in the west), then some Muslims (usually Qur'anists/modernists) jumped on the bandwagon.
  18. Itqan Ullah
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    Itqan Ullah Time is Running!!

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    Jazakallah Khairan Brother Preserveranze.
  19. PARVEZ SHAHIDI
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    PARVEZ SHAHIDI Junior Member

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    :salam2:

    Case: Preserveranze

    Evolution:: Male :SMILY346: ----> Sister :girl3: proved by brother Itqan Ullah.
  20. Itqan Ullah
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    Itqan Ullah Time is Running!!

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    >.< I really need to take a nap. lol

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