Scary ICNA accepts LGBT anti-discrimination bill

Um Ibrahim

Alhamdulilah :)
Asalaamu Alaykum brothers and sisters,

So I heard ICNA, largest Muslim organization has given their support to an anti-discrimination bill for gays.
I'm just confused. Why does an Islamic organization care about LGBT issues? Especially when these people practice things which are against the teachings of Islam. They really need to get their priorities straight. I was at my local masjid tonight and many Muslims were a little shocked about this.

More info: http://rac.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=23226&pge_prg_id=17207
 

hijau_lover

Member
وَعَلَيْكُمْ السَّلاَمُ وَرَحْمَةُ اللهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ

I've read the news n the month is in july. Acctually I felt disappointed about this. but I don't know much about US, and US is liberalism, may be ISNA has certain purpose.
 

MehmetHilmi

Junior Member
ISNA cannot be double faced. Consider this. Muslims in America are against Islamophobia and discrimination towards Muslims. So when ISNA itself pushes for anti discrimination laws regarding Muslim minorities, it also has to support anti discrimination laws regarding LGBT people. Otherwise, it would be like saying, it is ok if some members of the society are being treated unfairly as long as we are fine.

Therefore, I don't think ISNA is supporting LGBT marriage or anything like that. It is basically supporting a bill that would allow every member of society, regardless of background, of an equal chance of employment. In fact, there is nothing sad about this.

Do I support discrimination against LGBT people? I don't know what my stance is on this issue. I generally tend to stay out of these issues. But I can say for sure that in the school environment or even the professional work environment, everyone is the same in my eyes. My criteria for judging is based on how good that person is to me.

Just my two cents.
 

Precious Star

Junior Member
The issue, should they be discriminated against? And the answer to that is no.

All humans must be treated fairly. Unless we are criminals, we all should have equal access to jobs, health care, food, education, etc.

Should Muslims be discriminated against because men are allowed to strike their wives? Because women don't inherit as much as men? Think about it. You reap what you sow. If you are fair to others they will be fair to you.
 

T_E_S

Junior Member
The issue, should they be discriminated against? And the answer to that is no.

All humans must be treated fairly. Unless we are criminals, we all should have equal access to jobs, health care, food, education, etc.

Should Muslims be discriminated against because men are allowed to strike their wives? Because women don't inherit as much as men? Think about it. You reap what you sow. If you are fair to others they will be fair to you.

Don't really understand where you're going...

The sayings about a Muslim man 'striking' his wife or women inheriting less is invalid in a western country as their laws say otherwise and that'd prevail in these cases. And that's okay. It isn't exactly essential to ''strike'' your wife. I don't know why it was raised anyway. Doesn't seem relevant and seems almost like some kind of spiteful right-wing news site retort...

As for support of the gay rights bill, what is the bill actually to do with? That's all I really want to know.

Personally, at a time where there is a lot of tension in important regions, economic problems, extreme poverty all-over, drug issues, security threats and other social problems popping up more and more, I can't believe that LGBT rights are still getting so much Congress, Senate, Bundestag or whatever time...
 

Um Ibrahim

Alhamdulilah :)
Don't really understand where you're going...

The sayings about a Muslim man 'striking' his wife or women inheriting less is invalid in a western country as their laws say otherwise and that'd prevail in these cases. And that's okay. It isn't exactly essential to ''strike'' your wife. I don't know why it was raised anyway. Doesn't seem relevant and seems almost like some kind of spiteful right-wing news site retort...

As for support of the gay rights bill, what is the bill actually to do with? That's all I really want to know.

Personally, at a time where there is a lot of tension in important regions, economic problems, extreme poverty all-over, drug issues, security threats and other social problems popping up more and more, I can't believe that LGBT rights are still getting so much Congress, Senate, Bundestag or whatever time...
The issue, should they be discriminated against? And the answer to that is no.

All humans must be treated fairly. Unless we are criminals, we all should have equal access to jobs, health care, food, education, etc.

Should Muslims be discriminated against because men are allowed to strike their wives? Because women don't inherit as much as men? Think about it. You reap what you sow. If you are fair to others they will be fair to you.
ISNA cannot be double faced. Consider this. Muslims in America are against Islamophobia and discrimination towards Muslims. So when ISNA itself pushes for anti discrimination laws regarding Muslim minorities, it also has to support anti discrimination laws regarding LGBT people. Otherwise, it would be like saying, it is ok if some members of the society are being treated unfairly as long as we are fine.

Therefore, I don't think ISNA is supporting LGBT marriage or anything like that. It is basically supporting a bill that would allow every member of society, regardless of background, of an equal chance of employment. In fact, there is nothing sad about this.

Do I support discrimination against LGBT people? I don't know what my stance is on this issue. I generally tend to stay out of these issues. But I can say for sure that in the school environment or even the professional work environment, everyone is the same in my eyes. My criteria for judging is based on how good that person is to me.

Just my two cents.


But what is discrimination? Any opinion against their lifestyle will be labeled "discrimination" and as you may well know Islam is against homosexuality and/or men acting and dressing like women and vise-versa. I'm not sure any Muslim employer would want an openly gay man or woman to work for them and that is what this bill is all about.
 

Um Ibrahim

Alhamdulilah :)
Don't really understand where you're going...

The sayings about a Muslim man 'striking' his wife or women inheriting less is invalid in a western country as their laws say otherwise and that'd prevail in these cases. And that's okay. It isn't exactly essential to ''strike'' your wife. I don't know why it was raised anyway. Doesn't seem relevant and seems almost like some kind of spiteful right-wing news site retort...

As for support of the gay rights bill, what is the bill actually to do with? That's all I really want to know.

Personally, at a time where there is a lot of tension in important regions, economic problems, extreme poverty all-over, drug issues, security threats and other social problems popping up more and more, I can't believe that LGBT rights are still getting so much Congress, Senate, Bundestag or whatever time...

I agree with you! There are so many other things to worry about. The bill basically stops employers from denying those who are gay employment with business/company because of their sexual orientation and ICNA is in support of that bill. I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from. click on that link and you'll see the letter that was written and that ICNA also signed in support of this bill.
 

Um Ibrahim

Alhamdulilah :)
The issue, should they be discriminated against? And the answer to that is no.

All humans must be treated fairly. Unless we are criminals, we all should have equal access to jobs, health care, food, education, etc.

Should Muslims be discriminated against because men are allowed to strike their wives? Because women don't inherit as much as men? Think about it. You reap what you sow. If you are fair to others they will be fair to you.

Why is the answer NO? Let's say I'm a Muslim business owner and someone who is openly and 'proudly' gay applies for a job with my company. If I say I don't agree with this person's lifestyle and therefore I don't want this person working for me because of my religious beliefs, this is going to be considered "discrimination" right? But Islam tells us to encourage good and forbid evil. Not hiring these people is part of forbidding evil in my opinion so that they will at least try to hide their lifestyle from others while at work if they want to work with people. All this bill does is just encourage this lifestyle even more and it's disturbing that any Muslim organization or Muslim is in support of it. Let's just be honest.
 

T_E_S

Junior Member
Why is the answer NO? Let's say I'm a Muslim business owner and someone who is openly and 'proudly' gay applies for a job with my company. If I say I don't agree with this person's lifestyle and therefore I don't want this person working for me because of my religious beliefs, this is going to be considered "discrimination" right? But Islam tells us to encourage good and forbid evil. Not hiring these people is part of forbidding evil in my opinion so that they will at least try to hide their lifestyle from others while at work if they want to work with people. All this bill does is just encourage this lifestyle even more and it's disturbing that any Muslim organization or Muslim is in support of it. Let's just be honest.


I always wondered this, how are they going to STOP people denying a job to someone based on their sexuality?

First of all, do they walk into the interview room and just come out with it that they're gay? You could perhaps do it without realising, especially if the gay person is young and single.

Second, if you are prejudice against gays and did not want to hire someone who is gay, who would actually come out and say ''sorry I don't hire gays''? If you didn't want to hire a gay you'd make another excuse or just say to them they are unsuccessful.

Seems like an extremely petty waste of time that fixes nothing.
 

Um Ibrahim

Alhamdulilah :)
ISNA cannot be double faced. Consider this. Muslims in America are against Islamophobia and discrimination towards Muslims. So when ISNA itself pushes for anti discrimination laws regarding Muslim minorities, it also has to support anti discrimination laws regarding LGBT people. Otherwise, it would be like saying, it is ok if some members of the society are being treated unfairly as long as we are fine.

Therefore, I don't think ISNA is supporting LGBT marriage or anything like that. It is basically supporting a bill that would allow every member of society, regardless of background, of an equal chance of employment. In fact, there is nothing sad about this.

Do I support discrimination against LGBT people? I don't know what my stance is on this issue. I generally tend to stay out of these issues. But I can say for sure that in the school environment or even the professional work environment, everyone is the same in my eyes. My criteria for judging is based on how good that person is to me.

Just my two cents.

It's not being two-faced. Two faced is when you are saying you belong to an Islamic organization but support something which the religion you belong to is openly is against in my opinion anyway. May Allah bless ICNA because I know they also do a lot for the Muslim community in the U.S. but this was not a good thing. May Allah guide them to the right path.
 

Um Ibrahim

Alhamdulilah :)
I always wondered this, how are they going to STOP people denying a job to someone based on their sexuality?

First of all, do they walk into the interview room and just come out with it that they're gay? You could perhaps do it without realising, especially if the gay person is young and single.

Second, if you are prejudice against gays and did not want to hire someone who is gay, who would actually come out and say ''sorry I don't hire gays''? If you didn't want to hire a gay you'd make another excuse or just say to them they are unsuccessful.

Seems like an extremely petty waste of time that fixes nothing.

Of course no employer will say "yeah, I'm sorry but you're gay." but people usually will assume and even try to sue companies because they might think that's the only reason they weren't hired. This whole gay stuff is getting out of hand now a days. It's just too much.
 

Mabsoot

Amir
Staff member
Second, if you are prejudice against gays and did not want to hire someone who is gay, who would actually come out and say ''sorry I don't hire gays''? If you didn't want to hire a gay you'd make another excuse or just say to them they are unsuccessful.

True, although in the UK the anti-discrimination laws are better enforced than in the US. Here they would want to know more about why a person is turned down from a job or treated unfairly, when they had the right qualifications and ability.
 

T_E_S

Junior Member
Of course no employer will say "yeah, I'm sorry but you're gay." but people usually will assume and even try to sue companies because they might think that's the only reason they weren't hired. This whole gay stuff is getting out of hand now a days. It's just too much.

So what are they doing? walking into the interview room like ''Hi, I'm Dave, I have a 2:1 degree, I am 26 years old, oh and I'm gay'' and now if they don't get hired they're gonna sue? It seems like something so horribly unpracticle and useless.
 

T_E_S

Junior Member
True, although in the UK the anti-discrimination laws are better enforced than in the US. Here they would want to know more about why a person is turned down from a job or treated unfairly, when they had the right qualifications and ability.

True, but even so, it's so easy to just turn around and say things like there were better qualified candidates, more experienced candidates, or equal candidates but there were tens maybe hundreds of them going for this one job. I just don't get how it works.
 

MehmetHilmi

Junior Member
I will say this, so what if they are Gay. If Allah provides for them and feeds them, then why should I deny them their rights? Who am I to judge? Maybe that person is a really good person who gives charity and does good works.
 
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SonOfAdam

Well-Known Member
Staff member
You have to choose the lesser of two evils sometimes... I view it like that, too bad they had to get involved. May Allah guide us.
 

Precious Star

Junior Member
Why is the answer NO? Let's say I'm a Muslim business owner and someone who is openly and 'proudly' gay applies for a job with my company. If I say I don't agree with this person's lifestyle and therefore I don't want this person working for me because of my religious beliefs, this is going to be considered "discrimination" right? But Islam tells us to encourage good and forbid evil. Not hiring these people is part of forbidding evil in my opinion so that they will at least try to hide their lifestyle from others while at work if they want to work with people. All this bill does is just encourage this lifestyle even more and it's disturbing that any Muslim organization or Muslim is in support of it. Let's just be honest.

I see. So right now you are living in a country that bombs Muslims, sends drones on Muslim countries, has a teenage birth rate of 40%, openly discriminates against black people, approves of pre-marital sex and cohabitation.....so you are living in such a country, you pay taxes to the US government, and yet as a Muslim you feel we should not condone anti-Islamic behaviour?

Here's another question. If a man knocks on your door, starving and thirsty and gay, would you deny him food and drink, because he's gay?

If you found out you child's doctor had premarital sex, would you insist that your child have another doctor? What about you college professor? Would you insist that your college return your tuition to you, because your fees are being used to pay a zaini?
 

T_E_S

Junior Member
I see. So right now you are living in a country that bombs Muslims, sends drones on Muslim countries, has a teenage birth rate of 40%, openly discriminates against black people, approves of pre-marital sex and cohabitation.....so you are living in such a country, you pay taxes to the US government, and yet as a Muslim you feel we should not condone anti-Islamic behaviour?

Here's another question. If a man knocks on your door, starving and thirsty and gay, would you deny him food and drink, because he's gay?

If you found out you child's doctor had premarital sex, would you insist that your child have another doctor? What about you college professor? Would you insist that your college return your tuition to you, because your fees are being used to pay a zaini?

You seem very impassioned about a gay rights bill that has no practical substance, and very set on purely hypothetical ''what would you do'' type situations that barely arise in reality. Since no professor or doctor tells you about their sexuality, nor does a homeless guy knock on your door and ask if you can spare a gay guy abita cash or maybe grab him a sandwich.

If only people could be so impassioned and set on situations that actually save lives or actually occur outside of their own imagination.
 

Precious Star

Junior Member
You seem very impassioned about a gay rights bill that has no practical substance, and very set on purely hypothetical ''what would you do'' type situations that barely arise in reality. Since no professor or doctor tells you about their sexuality, nor does a homeless guy knock on your door and ask if you can spare a gay guy abita cash or maybe grab him a sandwich.

If only people could be so impassioned and set on situations that actually save lives or actually occur outside of their own imagination.

I'm trying to make a point which is best made by asking one to ponder over hypotheticals. Clearly you're not getting it.

If as a Muslim you think that a man who sleeps with another man should not be employed, then that's you're right.

But don't practice Islam cafeteria-style....you can't pick what you like and ignore what you don't. Put all of your money where your mouth is....which means don't employ anyone who engages in impermissible sexual intercourse, not just homeosexuals.
 
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