I have quoted the passage here for others to read without external links. I highlighted the phrases whch support Jesus's divinity (in my opinion).
What I found even contradicts with what you expected. Look at verse 16:
16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a
servant[c] is not greater than his master;
nor is he who is sent greater than he who
sent him.
While in John 17 : 3, Jesus claims that God sent him:
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
So, in conclusion, Jesus is not greater than the one who sent him! How could this be when they are one in your belief system? Did you see inconsistency here? I did!
I believe the original Greek & Hebrew Bible is inerrant in its teachings. But I do not claim it is perfect in all it says. For instance, Jesus gave a parable about a mustard seed where He claims the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds...is that a correct statement? No, absolutely not. But Jesus was not giving a lecture on horticulture, he was teaching a truth about the Kingdom of Heaven. He was relating to those He was teaching in terms they could comprehend.
The difference between Jesus and God the Father is simply the form in which God is manifest. They are the same God, yet different persons, and became human identify with us, and to allow us to better understand Him.
Thank you again for admitting that bible is not perfect, even pointed out to the specific part. Did you know that Jesus' language is Aramaic? So why did you believe most in translation in Greek or Hebrew? And did you know that Bible in Aramaic found in Turkey and it said about the coming of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Also, did you know that unlike yours, Quran is perfect?There is no scientific errors in it and it is compatible with nowadays science. You can read about that here :
www.quranandscience.com
In addition, I think it does not make sense for a God to be human because as I have stated before, if He wants something, He can do it easily without many efforts. God becomes human is like a weak type of God for me. What for does He suffer if He is capable of doing ANYTHING?
I had a bit more time to research today and your links were helpful. I was pretty hasty with my "cannot find a shred of evidance"...that comment based based on what I found quickly via "BibleGateway.com"...the verse is not missing?!? After more research, I agree it is controversial, but definitely has not been removed:
The only one above which argees with Joshua is the RSV. How does Islam expalin the "Spirit"? And even there, the verse is present, its just translated differently. Also, the manuscripts which contain this verse are predated by the doctrine of the trinity, check out this short video (edit - video in next post, apparently I can only post 1 video max per post).
Are you sure that the site is reliable? Because many people reported in various sites that 1 John 5: 7 is missing! Besides those sites I gave you, this person also reported that that verse was lost in his bible.
I remember a youth pastor asking my youth
group once to try to find verses in the Bible
that would support the doctrine of the
Trinity...and I remember discovering to my
shock and dismay that the verses that
I remembered from my KJV were not to be
found in my NIV in 1 John 5:7-8 that would
seem to clearly point to the Trinity (of
course there are MANY other passages that
support this doctrine, but this was one of
those that came to my mind which should
have been an "easy" one in support of the
doctrine...so much for that...or was it).
The verses read as follows in the NKJV (the
bold is not included in most of the modern
versions): "For there are three that bear
witness in heaven: the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Spirit; and these three are
one. 8 And there are three that bear
witness on earth: the Spirit, the water,
and the blood; and these three agree as
one." (1 John 5:7-8)
So what happened that half of verse seven
and half of verse eight are missing in most
of the modern versions (ESV, NAB, NAS,
NET, NIV, NLT, NJB, NRSV, etc.) with the
exception of those in the King James
tradition?
Read it here :
http://lost_translation_3a_why_arent_these_verses_my_bibl e_1_john_57_8
Even wikipedia supports that statement:
Although many traditional Bible
translations, most notably the
Authorized King James Version (KJV),
contain the Comma, modern Bible
translations from the Critical Text such
as the New International Version
(NIV), the New American Standard
Bible (NASB), the English Standard
Version (ESV), the New Revised
Standard Version (NRSV) tend to either
omit the Comma entirely, or relegate
it to the footnotes.
Read here
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum
And many more, just type in search engine and so many results will appear. If only muslims who claim that, I understand if you disbelieve me. But even the christians themselves reported the same thing! So,clearly Brother Joshua didn't make up that issue
Here is explanation about spirit in Islam:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_(Islam)
Again, in human form, he acted like a human to help us know Him even better. Its funny to me the atheist argument of "God's hiddeness"...they argue that if God is real, why doesn't He show himself....my response is that HE DID!!!
If so, then Jesus can only state, "People, I am your God in human form. Here is the way to worship me. Follow me." But where in the bible that thing exists? If God wants example, He will provide prophet for that matter. Didn't it the thing He do all this time, sending prophets until the sealed of the prophet, Muhammad? So why He must bother to descend Himself if He can create prophet for that purpose? Why did He need another prophets if He can descend directly? Why didn't He descend at the beginning of time as example of human?
Trinity is way too confusing and like Brother above stated, God must not want his followers to be confused. Atheism has been debunked by Islam many times and many of them have accepted Islam without the need of seeing God, alhamdulillah.
Whoops, sorry I missed it. But, this only explains how, it does not explain why? Don't you see how this makes Jesus unique from all the other prophets, why did God do that?
No, it only explains that Allah is capable of doing anything. If he can create Adam without father and mother then not claiming him as "his son" then why can't He do the similiar thing to Jesus? Sorry, it does not make sense if God, even in human form, is less special than the others. I remember Brother Joshua said that christian concept related with patriarchy, where father side is always greater than mother side. Just because Jesus has no father, some people immediately claimed that god was the father because He is great. Naudzubillah. Muslims know here that Allah can create miracle.
If you don't have any other arguments as back up, then surely I also can make my own religion, saying that Noah is son of god, and when someone asks why, just say "because he is special" without many other arguments. Will you believe it?
Whoah, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine of the trinity. It teaches that God is one, manifest to humans in three persons. This is fundamentally different from pantheism and polytheism!
Did you know that Hinduism also believe in one God but manifest in three : Brahma, Siva, and Visnu? They even have "trimurti" concept which is basically same with "trinity"! So I don't think christianity is that different with polytheism because hinduism also believe that God is one but manifested into many things, i.e.other gods!
Read about trimurti here
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti
How can you agree with Joshua...Joshua's point is that Jesus is rebuking them for worshiping Him (Jesus)!?!? He is clearly not doing that, He is quoting from Isaiah, telling them that they were fulfilling Isaiah's prophecy in their contemporary way of life. He is saying; "look at the way you have corrupted the teaching of old, and are living by your own perverse set of rules....you need to retrain your focus on God!" - paraphrased by me. So I stand by my claim that Joshua has taken it out of context and interprets it incorrectly.
No, Brother Joshua is right. Even in your interpretation, it can be said that Jesus himself was angry because there were some people who mislead his teachings. Now, why there must be word "wrongly worship me" or "in vain they worship me"? He could have said, "your faith is useless" but why must he say that particular words? It makes sense to say that the "worshipping" is part of the falsehood!
Concerning all of this; I never claimed to have proof of anything. These arguements are well know, and I'm not claiming to have any new information. My point was that there are difficulties in the Bible which can be debated both ways, and in the same way there are difficulties in the Koran which can be debated both ways. This is not the time or place for those debates, I'd like to keep this thread on topic, which is the debate about Jesus's divinity.
So you will accuse something without proof? Even in court we must have proof if we want to accuse someone, let alone the almighty God! Every argument about christianity uttered by muslims always have proofs behind it, whether historical or scientific facts. So, we expect you to do the same with your argument. Lacking proofs can be an argument for muslims to reject christianity.
Now, please watch this video. There, a Christian cried after listening to explanations about Islam from Yusuf Esthes, a muslim who is also a former Christian
[video=youtube;MH2RZfNXGdA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH2RZfNXGdA&sns=tw[/video]
Tell me what do you think about it. I think it is a good video to know about Islam. Moreover someone who explained it has ever been a Christian. The duration is not too long, only about 30 minutes or so. I hope you will enjoy it
