Video Islam and Christianity Full Lecture Script

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  1. medoaaa21
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    medoaaa21 Junior Member

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    This is the full lecture script except the the talk of the man just before Gary Miller speaks

    Errors may be included so it requires revision
    You are free to use it as you like but don't change the content
    Translate it to your language and make a subtitle to the video or make video editing with magix 17 or so to put your voice in your language


    Now the content

    Ahmed Deedat

    السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
    May the peace and blessing of god be upon you all
    Mr. Chairman and brothering
    Podly P O D L Y .. podly the American in his book “the messenger” he gives the relative strength of two of the mightiest religious forces on earth today
    Those of Islam and Christianity
    He doesn’t give us figures
    He does not tell us that the Muslim today’s number one thousand million and the Christians one thousand two hundred million
    But what he says is “that these Muslims and Christians who are competing for the aligns of mankind that they” he says ”that there are more prophesying Christians in the world than prophesying Muslims but” he says “there are more practicing Muslims in the world than practicing Christians”
    If I said this on my own account plowing my own plum pert who would not have carried much weight it makes me happy to quote an outsider an American and a Christian at that
    What is really the difference between Islam and Christianity
    I may share with you that Islam is the only non-Christian faith which makes it an article of faith for its followers to believe in Jesus
    No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus
    What he is made to believe is .. that Jesus Christ was one of mightiest messengers of god
    He is made to believe that he was the messiah
    He is made to believe that he was born miraculously without any male intervention
    Which many modern day Christians do not believe today
    And he is mad to believe the Muslim is mad to believe that Jesus Christ he gave life to the dead by god’s permission and he healed those born blind and the libbers by god’s permission
    He gets all this from his book of authority the holly Quran
    It is your privilege to get one
    The MYM book stall in the corner .. there .. they are selling them for five Rands each
    Two thousand pages .. an encyclopedia of two thousand pages for five Rands each
    You will agree with me that’s very very cheep
    An if you can’t afford it Muslims as well as non-Muslim you can write to the Islamic Propagation Center and tell us that look I am earning five hundred Rands a month but I can’t afford a Quran and get one by return post
    Tell us why we should give you one for nothing
    I am not talking about the cultist, the born again missionary .. look he has to pay for it as well as we have to pay for the bibles from the bible house
    But I am talking about the general public .. if you are interested in knowing the Quran and if you can’t afford it write for one and get one free
    Now the point of real difference what are the only .. the only points of real difference between the Muslim and the Christian is this .. are these
    Number one .. the Muslim says that Jesus is not god
    Number two .. the Muslim says that Jesus is not the begotten son of god because god does not beget
    The Muslim says that god is not a Trion god because there is no such thing as three in one and one in three
    The Muslim says that Jesus Christ was not killed nor crucified and hence he was not resurrected
    There is no such thing as resurrection
    These are points of real differences between Muslims and Christians
    But believe me Mr. chairman .. ladies and gentle men
    That this wide gulf between the Muslim and the Christian between Islam and Christianity is been rapidly bridged
    The Christians are coming towards Islam
    I am not talking about the cultist
    I am talking about the learned men of Christianity who are described in the holly Quran in these beautiful words
    I am quoting from Surah “Maeda” chapter five verse 85 it says “ولتجدن أقربهم مودة للذين آمنوا الذين قالوا إنا نصارى”
    And nearest in them .. among them in faith .. in love .. and nearest among them in love to the believers to the muslims .. will thaw find those who say we are Christians
    “ذلك بأن منهم قسيسين” because among them are men devoted to learning
    Among the Christians say the wholly Quran are men devoted to learning
    “ورهباناً” and men who renounce the world
    “وأنهم لا يستكبرون” and people who are not arrogant
    Abdulla Youssef Ali … the commentator of this translation which I was showing to you
    In his note No. 789 on this verse comments…..
    He says the meaning is not that they call them self’s Christians but they are such sincere Christians that they appreciate Muslim vetches
    As did they have a seines to whom Muslim refuge is went during the persecution in Mecca
    They would say it is true we are Christians but we understand your point of view
    And we know you are good men
    Abdulla Youssef Ali concludes that these Christians they are Muslims at heart
    That these Christians they are Muslims at heart never mind whatever label they apply for them self’s
    And I can give you many examples from history of this type of good learned men among the Christians
    But time is short
    So let me give you some brief references from recent times
    Number 1
    In the time magazine July 15 1974 .. there was a series of essays under the heading “who are history’s great leaders”
    And among the contributors there is one James Gavin .. described as retired a.. commander of chief .. A commander in chief from the American army
    This James Gavin in his list of the most .. the greatest leaders .. he says number one Muhammad “ص”
    And number two he puts his own lord and savior Jesus Christ .. number two
    Then .. in America again .. an American by the name Michael Eghart of the heart publishing company
    Described as an astronomer and a mathematician
    This man he writes a book of 572 pages .. giving the most influential men in history from the time of Adam up to current times
    And in his list of one hundred most influential man.. he puts the holly prophet of Islam Muhammad number one
    And .. surprisingly .. he puts his own lord and savior Jesus Christ number three
    Then .. that is going a bet far .. coming back to our own country
    The charming Bill Charmils.. he will be on TV tonight .. on what is called cross Christians.. who will be on TV tonight
    This Bill Charmils .. at the end of a lively debate on the subject of “Islam and Christianity”.. the very subject of this afternoon’s discussion
    It was in essay PC TV “Islam and Christianity”
    He commented at the end of the talk.. in these charming words
    “well I think it can be said from this discussion that there is at present somewhat more accommodation on the Islamic side for the founder of Christianity than there is in the Christian side for the founder of Islam .. but the significance of that is we leave it to you the viewer to determine, but I do hope you’d agree with us that it’s a good thing that we are talking together”
    He said .. I think it can be said from this discussion referring to the discussion on TV.. that there is at present somewhat more accommodation on the Islamic side for the founder of Christianity than there is in the Christian side for the founder of Islam
    That there are more tolerance .. there is more compassion on the Islamic side for Jesus Christ than there is on the Christian side for the founder of Islam
    He said what the significance of that is .. we leave it to you the viewer to determine
    But I do think you will agree with me that it is a good thing that we are talking together
    Mr. chairman ladies and gentlemen
    You are all privileged to see that video tape of that meeting “Islam and Christianity” that great debate that took place on TV
    You are privileged to see that tape absolutely free of charge
    On VHS or peter max .. whatever you choose .. whatever format absolutely free of charge if you want to see it .. you can see it
    You can get it from the propagation center
    But you will have to put with us 25 Rands security deposit
    Because after giving this tape to you we haven’t got the man power to start running behind you to find out where you are with this tape
    So you leave with us 25 Rands security .. after a week you return it and take your money back in full
    We don’t hire it.. we will lend it to you
    And on that …. On this program you will see something more than .. what Bill charmels tells you
    You see .. you will find on this tape .. The reason why bill charmels says .. you know.. that there is more sympathy from the Islamic that there is in the Christian side towards Islam
    You will find a classical example of a sickness
    You see th…. There is a current sickness prevailing among the Christians of the world
    They call it a *!*!*!*! again
    It is a cult that has been created recently .. where they now say that look previously with the decibels of Jesus they had the spirit with them
    But now they say we have it in us
    The spirit is in them .. inside .. fills them up
    And I had one of this sick persons coming to my office .. wanting to share this sickness with me
    I asked him now you have the spirit in you.. he said yes
    I said it permeates every fiber of your being.. he said yes
    So I said you can’t be tempted
    If the spirit of god fills you up .. is there room for the devil to get in
    He says no..
    So I said you can’t be tempted.. he says no
    So I said congratulations
    Congratulations.. I said you know you’re gre.. greater than your own God
    You are greater than your own lord and savior Jesus Christ
    Because Jesus Christ was tempted by the devil .. and you can’t be tempted
    Amazing .. you cant be tempted but jesus was tempted
    So said no no no .. I can also be tempted
    Then I said in that case you haven’t got the spirit
    Its either way .. if you have the spirit then you are greater than Jesus
    Because Jesus was tempted , his dispels were tempted
    You are greater than them all
    And if you are .. if you can be tempted then you haven’t got the spirit
    Rather you have something rightly described by the holly prophet of Islam ..
    He said that “شيطان” “شيطان” the spirit of evil coses through the body of man like the blood
    This is why .. “شيطان” is cossing through the body of man like the blood
    As the blood is throwing in your Veins.. this devilishness evil inclinations temptations are also cossing through your body
    So somebody asked him .. he said what about you
    And he was humble enough to admit .. he said me too but mine is under control
    So .. talking about these learned Christians .. I said there are these learned Christians .. they are coming towards islam
    These are learned men .. not sick people
    Our biggest points of differences between the Christian and ourselves
    Thing that grated the Muslim most was this expression that Jesus is the only begotten son.. begotten not made
    This word begetting .. was greeting Muslims
    And it is grating according the to the recitation red by our “قارئ”
    He red those words .. very strong words
    He said “وقالوا اتخذ الرحمن ولدا” and they say that “الرحمن” the merciful God .. he has begotten a son
    “الله سبحانه وتعالى” god almighty .. he says in answer to that he said “لقد جئتم شيئا إدا” it’s one of the most abominable asserts any one can make
    “تكاد السماوات يتفطرن منه” and the sky are ready to burst
    “وتنشق الأرض” and the earth to split asunder
    “وتخر الجبال هدا” and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin
    Such a horrible swearing .. that you say that god begot a son
    Because begetting is an animal act .. it belongs to the lower animal functions of sex
    How can you attribute such quality to God
    So .. the learned men of Christianity .. 32 scholars of the highest eminents backed by 50 cooperating denominations of the Christians
    They went and produced the revised standard version of the bible
    And they through this word begotten out unceremoniously
    This word begotten in John 3:16 every Christian in the world knows it
    The most translated sentence .. of any sentence in the world
    John 3:16
    Now .. look for it in the revised standard version of the bible .. its thrown out as a fabrication.. as an interpolation
    I say here .. it’s about time that we shake hands with this Christian scholars
    We say than.. thank you very much
    Coming closer to Islam
    The word that was grating us .. they threw it out
    To appease us? .. no .. because they found that it was not there in the original manuscripts
    This was somebody who had pushed it in
    It’s not supposed to be there .. its thrown out
    I have the bible here after the meeting if you like to check it up .. check it up .. the word begotten is not to be found
    Another point of real difference between the Muslim and the Christian
    Is this called .. thing called trinity .. the holy trinity
    Where the Christian say the father is God the son is God and the Holy Ghost is God but they are not three gods but one god
    You Remember the formula?.. every Christian has it on his lips
    He says the father is almighty the son is almighty and the holy ghost is almighty but they are not three almighty’s but one almighty
    He continues .. the father is a person the son is a person and the holy ghost is a person but they are not three persons but one person
    I am asking the English man what language are you speaking?
    You said person .. person .. person but not three persons but one person
    What language is that .. (but) what of course that is the language of religion
    Now .. the only solid basis on which this .. dogma .. could be based is to be found in the king James version .. in the roman catholic version of the bible in the first epistle of John chapter 5 verse 7
    It reads .. for there are three that be record in heaven .. The father the word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one
    That is the clearest aclo.. approximation to the trinity in the Christian bible
    Now that also .. has been unceremoniously thrown out of this book
    By who? .. not by Muslim scholars.. not by Jewish scholars not by Hindu scholars but by 32 scholars Christian scholars of the highest eminent packed by 50 cooperating denominations
    They threw it out as a fabrication .. its not there
    So I said congratulations to you .. my Christian learned men .. I say I’d like to kiss your hand
    Look they are coming to Islam
    They are coming closer and closer to Islam
    With regards to the crucifixion .. with regards to the resurrection
    We have given you a pan flit
    Jesus as only a messenger
    At the back of that pan flit .. you will find a shock survey of Anglican bishops
    A shock survey of Anglican bishops
    These are paid servants of the Anglican Church
    Men of the highest order of learning
    The most respected people in Christendom among the author ox
    In “our daily news” of the 25th of June .. this year
    Daik lan from London .. it is said .. more than half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God
    You are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ is God
    And this was a point of real difference between the Muslim and the Christian
    They threw it out
    They said .. if you don’t believe in that you are still an Anglican
    They don’t want to lose you .. to Islam
    Because that is what the real point of difference is .. we say that Jesus is not God .. the Christian say that Jesus is god
    But more than half of the bishops now are telling you .. that you don’t have to believe that Jesus is God .. that means he is not God
    It is not a foundation of your faith any more
    So .. I take off my hat to these Anglican bishops .. as we all odd to do
    We take off our hat
    What was the purpose? .. what was the motive?
    Which Arab .. “شيخ” bribed these bishops? .. tell me .. who bribed them?
    To go away with the main .. the bed rock of Christendom is the divinity of Christ .. they say look you don’t have to believe in that any more
    And further in the same article .. you read it at home
    That... the poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the bible
    These are something more like ferry tails
    These are like ferry tails … it might could have happened
    This resurrection of Jesus might not have happened
    And we have given you a book … free … crucifixion or CRUCI-FICTION
    Absolutely free
    And you read it … and you can’t help agreeing that it’s a FICTION … F I C T I O N … FICTION
    Not fixion
    So … these learned men of the Christendom … described in the holy Quran as learned
    That they are coming towards Islam
    I said congratulations … we take off our hat to you
    And .. only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 out of 31 work out the percentage … at home …
    They said that Jesus Christ is nothing other than “Gods’ supreme agent”
    That’s all we are saying
    That is what the Quran says
    يا أهل الكتاب
    Oh people of the book … oh learned people
    لا تغلوا في دينكم
    He said do not go too extreme in your religion
    ولا تقولوا على الله إلا الحق
    And don’t say anything about god except the truth
    إنما المسيح
    Most certainly the messiah
    عيسى ابن مريم
    Jesus the son of Merry
    رسول الله
    Is the messenger of Allah
    Look …. This is what the Muslim is saying “is a messenger of Allah”
    Now the Anglican pushups 11 out of 31 .. they say .. that he .. 19 out of 31 .. that he is only a messenger
    Now this .. th.. this .. there is a message for the Muslim
    That it is about time that we share Islam with our fellow country man
    Look the learned man when he makes a discovery he makes it known by the masses they don’t know what’s going on
    They are like sheep .. they are still kept their .. in the staple
    We have to free them
    Bring them over an say look … these are your learned men
    They are confessing .. without any coercion .. there is no Muslim with a sword over his head
    You remember the lone saying that Islam was spread at the point of the sword
    I said witch sword is forcing these learned people to tell you ..
    That whatever the Muslim says they are agreeing with us .. step by step .. step by step
    But they are dragging their feet
    It is about time that we push them .. rush them
    Say look man .. this .. what is different now between us and you
    Whatever you say .. the difference that existed that graded the Muslim you have taken them out
    You say we don’t believe in them
    So why not shake hands .. and become Muslims
    In the words of the holly Quran .. I’ll end this brief talk by saying .. as we are made to say
    قل
    Tell them
    يا أهل الكتاب
    Oh people of the book .. oh learned people .. oh people with a scripture
    تعالوا
    Come
    إلى كلمة سواء بيننا وبينكم
    That we come to common terms as between us and you
    Let us get onto a common platform
    And that common platform .. this almighty god . he gives it to us in this holly book
    He says
    ألا نعبد إلا الله
    That we worship none but Allah
    ولا نشرك به شيئاً
    And that we associate no partners with him
    ولا يتخذ بعضنا بعضاً أرباباً من دون الله
    And that we do not take from among ourselves lords and patrons other than Allah
    فإن تولوا
    But if they turn back
    فقولوا اشهدوا بأنا مسلمون
    Tell them .. that we at least are Muslims
    We have submitted our well to the well of god
    And we want you to join us in the fellowship of faith
    In the brotherhood of faith
    وآخر دعوانا أن الحمد لله رب العالمين
  2. medoaaa21
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    Now Gary Miller
    To my Muslim friends
    السلام عليكم
    To Christian friends “peace be with you”
    They both mean the same thing as it happens
    To everyone in general “welcome”
    Mr Deedat spoke and of course some things that .. aa .. Christians probably don’t like to hear
    Not necessarily because they are not true things .. I mean it is true that many of the pushups of the church of England have said that Jesus is not diving .. that’s a fact they have said that
    What is annoying to many Christians is to say “How could a man who calls himself a Christian say that”
    In any case .. I too will say something’s that will annoy people
    Something’s that may be Muslims don’t want to hear
    Something’s that may be Christians don’t want to hear
    But ask yourself .. is it because it wasn’t true or why does it bother me .. if you don’t like to hear what I've said
    As my friend have said .. we just get into discussion , I met him for the first time I believe it was only yesterday
    We found that we did that one time lived within a few hundred miles of each other in Canada for a period of about six or eight years, but unless I pumped into him on the street I don’t remember of meeting him until yesterday
    He said that he went from Catholicism into Islam , I went from Catholicism toward the protestant churches
    Now .. I have to clarify though first .. don’t misunderstand where we are going
    I didn’t come here to the invitation of the church … mister Deedat asked me to come here
    Didn’t pay me to come here
    Couple of days after I got here I asked him "who is paying for this trip"
    He said "we can't afford it" …. All right that’s the end of that
    So nobody paid me to come here
    I am invited from time to time to speak in churches and sometimes I speak at mosques and most often I simply speak in universities … in open forums
    You see .. a lot of churches like what I say and a lot of churches don’t like what I say
    Recently I was speaking in Vancouver in the west coast of Canada
    And when I finished my speech somebody came up and told me .. how horrible it was, he said as a Christian he was very offended by what he heard and he was very upset and another man right behind him came up .. and he was a minister in the united church of Canada .. that’s the largest denomination in Canada .. he shook my hand .. he said that was beautiful .. I want your name and address .. I like what you said
    So you see you can't ever paint all Christians with one brush
    They come from one extreme to the other
    Any two differences you can think of they will be people in between these two extremes
    So please understand .. some churches appreciate what I say .. some do not
    To clarify some terminology .. I was surprised to find this morning .. I looked in the news paper talking about things going on in the city today and it said "Garry Miller is going to be speaking .. an evangelist"
    Well .. for years in doing evangelical work with churches .. preaching on the street corner or in a church or anywhere that I went
    People will tell me "that’s evangelism you are doing .. you are an evangelist"
    And I used to tell them "I prefer you wouldn’t use that word"
    Because as carefully as I looked through the bible I never found the word evangelist on the lips of Jesus
    I'm not saying it’s a bad word .. you want to call yourself an evangelist be my guest
    Me prefer not to .. always prefer not to because I didn’t see Jesus use that word
    It doesn’t mean it's wrong
    I'm just trying to take only what I ever saw that he said
    And he never used that word
    I was surprised to hear yesterday that .. there you go my friend here told me that you got a phone call from somebody who want to know my credentials .. by what authority and power did I speak about Islam and Christianity
    I was kind of surprised to hear that
    The caller said he was a Christian
    It's very unchristian thing to do
    That’s what the Jews and the Romans and so on used to ask about the disables of Jesus you find in Acts chapter four among other places
    When the disables were trying to preach … the Romans and the Jews would say "by what authority do you preach , what school did you go to ,, you are just a fisherman , how do you dare to speak"
    Beside hope that’s not typical of most people , that they seem to think a Christian today has to be like a Farsi , he has through the school and get a certificate and he is approved.
    I can give you credentials like that if you want to but I will be ashamed to lower myself to that level
    Now .. please understand .. no matter what you think you hear me say .. I am trying to help the Christian missionary , Alright
    Somebody told me a few minutes ago , you can’t help the Christian missionary if you stand on the same platform with ahmed deedat
    I am trying to help the Christian missionary, listen carefully
    A lot of people don’t see it that way of course
    Because a lot of people muslims and Christians alike , they want to drink milk all there lives
    See if you gave a baby milk and you keep giving him milk he will get bigger and bigger
    But suppose you never gave him anything else but milk
    After sometime he starts to get sick
    There comes a time when he need meet and fruits and vegetables
    Paul wrote that in one of his litters , it’s in the bible , he said lets go beyond the milk , he say we want to get into the meat
    See most of the Christian community and the muslim community alike they want to come and go to their meetings on a weekly bases and hear the same old thing over and over .. don’t forget to pray ,, praise the lord ,, halleluiah and so on
    They don’t want any meat ,, you see this is milk we all know this
    We have to go beyond this sometimes
    When I say I am trying to help the missionary ….. I am talking about this
    I am saying to the missionary ,, you want to convert the muslim to Christianity , but look what you are doing instead
    You say you are trying to convert the muslim ,, you write books , you have speeches and so on you want to convert muslim
    Instead of converting the a muslim look what you are doing because of what you say
    You see the missionary wants the muslim to start thinking , so he asks him some questions , he has discussions and so on
    He plants little .. seeds
    He wants the muslim to start thinking
    But the missionary does not tell the muslim what to think , he just wants him to start thinking
    He doesn’t tell him what to think , because the missionary usually hasn’t thought about it himself
    Now that sounds serious , let me illustrate what I am getting at ,, by a few examples
    The missionary says to the muslim .. does the quraan say that jesus was sinless
    The muslim says yes ,, perfect man ,, never sinned
    And the missionary says , does the quraan tell muhammed to repent
    And the muslim says yes ,, it tells him to repent
    And that’s all .. the missionary doesn’t say anything else
    He hopes ,, now the muslim is going to start thinking ,, well now wait a minute (jesus never sinned but muhammed was supposed to repent) may be jesus is better
    He is hoping .. but he doesn’t dare say that
    Because if he says that .. if he says (do you know , a sinless man is better than a repentant sinner)
    If he dares to say that he goes exactly against the teachings of jesus
    If he is foolish enough to say that he goes exactly against the teachings of jesus
    My advice to muslims if somebody asks you those questions (you ask him to tell you the story of the prodigal son)
    Everybody knows the story in the bible .. you say the story of the prodigal son
    The young man who told his father give me the money that I will get when you die .. I want it now
    And the he ran away and he spent it on terrible things
    Ask him to tell you that story and tell you what is the lesson of that story
    Because the lesson of that story involves the complaint of the other brother in the family .. the good son
    When the evil son came back and repented the father welcomed him
    And the good son complained , he said I’ve never done anything wrong
    And look how you treat my brother who was so bad
    And his father told him how wrong in attitude that was
    He said your brother was dead now he is alive
    You see the perfect man does not have any preference over the sinless man or the repentant sinner .. in christianty
    Make the missionary tell you the story of the lost sheep
    Jesus said Mathew chapter 18 verse 12 , it starts ..
    Jesus said what do you think if a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray
    Does he not leave the 99 on the hills and go and search on the one that went astray
    And if he finds it truly I say to you he rejoices over it more than over the 99 that never went astray
    Jesus was trying to hammer that point home to his decibels
    Saying don’t you dare say because .. for example .. you’ve been a faithful follower for many years that you are better than this one who became a believer yesterday
    The perfect man has no precedence over the repentant sinner
    In fact this whole argument would not exist if both muslims and Christians were better aware of the meaning of the word sin ,, but that’s another story we don’t have time for
    To illustrate again
    The missionary says to the Muslim was Jesus the messiah , and the Muslim says yes
    And the missionary says,, was Muhammad the messiah
    And the Muslim says no
    There he stops again , hoping the Muslim will go away and think now wait a minute (Jesus is messiah but Mohamed isn’t) ,, may be Jesus is better
    Well .. what you want to ask the missionary is about this word messiah
    Ask him .. Jesus was the messiah , but were there any other messiahs besides Jesus
    Now you find out how well he knows his bible
    Because there were many ,, David , Solomon even Sires the Bergan were called messiah
    It’s hard to find that in the bible because the translators covered it over , they translate the word
    Messiah means anointed,, somebody picked to do a job , somebody single out and say (you .. are the one)
    Every king of ancient Israel was called messiah
    Now the name doesn’t look quite so special any more
    It is a title, but it does not particularly elevate to some diving states
    I am trying to show you that the arguments are not good enough that are being used and I see in print all the time
    The missionary asks the Muslim where is the body of Jesus
    And the Muslim says god took it
    And the missionary says where is the body of Muhammad
    And the Muslim says, it’s in Madinah in the ground
    The missionary stops hoping the Muslim will go away and think (now that’s interesting , the body of Jesus is gone Muhammad is in the grave .. may be Jesus is the true messenger , Muhammad is false)
    He is hoping you think that but he dare not say it
    Because what you want to ask the missionary ,, is that what you mean to say
    Do you mean that a dead and parried prophet is a false prophet, is that what you mean?
    Make him finish it
    Because if that what he means .. what does he say about Ibrahim for example
    Or in Arabic to say (إبراهيم)
    Jews and Muslims till now still go to the place where he is buried .. to visit his grave
    Is he a false prophet because he is dead and in the ground
    For that matter where is the body of Moses
    The bible says god took it .. he sent an angel to take the body away .. what does it prove
    What disturbs me most I guess , because even now we are seeing now finally a turnaround in the Pentecostal churches where ….
    For years the Pentecostal insisted ,, you are saved not by works but by your faith
    Pentecostal church starting to finally to put the two together .. now it’s faith and work side by side
    What the missionary has always accused the Muslim of is to say “you people believe you are saved by works alone”
    And they quote the Quran in the 32 chapter of the Quran the nineteenth verse or آية
    It says if you excuse my terrible Arabic “أما الذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات فلهم جنات المأوى نزلاً بما كانوا يعملون”
    Which means “and for those who believe and do good works for them gardens are refuge and entertainment for what they used to do”
    They quote this verse saying “you see muslims believe they are saved by works alone”
    Somehow the word is there and printed .. they don’t see it
    It says آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات .. آمنو they believe وعملوا الصالحات and they do good works
    They believe and they do good works, the two are together
    See the arabic language the word only has to change a little pit and it becomes a different part of speech
    آمنوا means they believe .. إيمان made from the same litters means what you believe, your belief, your faith
    What this verse is saying is you got to have faith and works, side by side, not one, not the other, but both
    Which is exactly what is found in the bible in the little book of James
    Specially the second chapter of the little book of James
    Now the protestant reformers at first didn’t like James very much
    Marten Luther said it was an epistle of straw .. blow it away .. didn’t like it
    In the second chapter of James he makes the point several times particularly in the 26 verse he says to the Christian community..
    “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”
    It’s not faith or works, its faith and works together
    That’s what the Muslim believe, that’s what the book of James says
    Don’t tell the Muslim he believes saved by works alone, he doesn’t believe it
    And he only think you are foolish because you think that’s what it says in the Quran when you quote it to him
    So far my points are simply these, that discussions about the sinless Jesus or Jesus the messiah or Jesus taken out to heaven or faith and works don’t prove anything, they are not arguments that are going to lead somewhere
    The complaint I have against Muslims is, sometimes you let your self be led around by the nose
    Think,.. don’t just say “well the man is an expert I don’t know”
    Think,.. it’s not how much you know, it’s what you do with what you know, how much do you use your head
    Even the bible tells people “lets reason together”, god says “come let us reason together” in the first chapter of Isaiah
    Now .. it is true that the Quran is very critical of some Jews and Christians, not all .. some Jews and Christians ,, the Quran is critical of them
    In the third chapter of the Quran in the third surah , beginning about the 77th verse or ayah
    It speaks of some among the Jews and Christians , it says “there is among the a group who distort the book with their tongs, you would think it is part of the book but it is no part of the book, and they say that is from god but it is not from god, it is they who tell a lie against god and well they know it”
    Now the Muslim is familiar with this scripture, from his book, it says “look.. some of the Jews and Christians lie about the contents of their book, they distort it”
    The Muslim has every reason to believe this is true, when he just looks at what’s offered in literature, he goes into a book store that sells bibles, and he find out there is so many different versions
    And if he looked carefully he sees that.. . the newer bibles leave out some other words that are in the older bibles .. and the newer bibles have some words that aren’t in the older bibles .. something is going on that looks funny to him, and he thinks of this verse
    Now of course someone is going to go away, many are probably going to go away and say “did I stood here and I insulted bible translators, because it’s the translators of the bible that do that”,,, I’m not
    I’ll be happy to insult a few, because they do this kind of thing they are guilty of manipulation
    But just as Jesus used to talk to a crowd of people, he told them what he wanted to tell them and every so often he see someone in the audience a faracy or somebody that was misleading the people and he point him out, say “that one is a liar”
    He was not diplomatic, that’s why he got into so much trouble from place to place
    Because when he saw a liar he pointed him out as such,,, I’m not going to do that but I’m just showing you, if you speak harshly at someone you are only following the example of Christ
    He found that there was a time and place to single out the people who led others into unbelief
    You see some translators of the bible are honest
    And they fight with their contemporary over the proper translation, to say you’ve changed that, it should be this. They fight about it
    Two of them for example are Goodspeed and makhphet , who’s bibles are printed under their own name because no church would pack them up
    They were too honest
    As I said the Quran is critical of some Jews and Christians
    It says in the third Surah that the Quran is (فرقان) in Arabic it means criterion
    It explains in the third verse that the Quran is supposed to be used as the basis of judging which is true and which is false in their scriptures
    It says in the fifth Surah that the Quran reveals much of what the Jews and Christians used to hide
    Now of course the Jew and the Christian doesn’t like to hear that
    But they do quote some of the Quran back to the Muslim
    But they do it badly is what I am trying to tell you
    They quote it back badly in this way, they try to make it serve their purpose
    There is no escaping… the Quran says the Jews and Christians they hide things they change things and so on
    So there is no sense in trying to find a verse some where to prove that “No .. no the Quran says that every thing in the bible is true”, but that’s what people do
    In the fifth chapter of the Quran they quote a verse… again if you excuse my Arabic
    Which says “وأنزلنا إليك الكتاب بالحق مصدقاً لما بين يديه من الكتاب”
    They quote this and it says.. the translation is .. speaking of the Quran that it is sent down to the prophet it says “and we sent down to you the book in truth confirming that which they possessed of the book before
    And you see the Christian says .. you see there, the Quran says the bible is true
    It says the Quran was sent down to confirm .. to say its truthful what they have in their book
    That’s what this sentence says if you stop there, but that’s the middle of the sentence.. there is two more words in the sentence
    They are “ومهيمناً عليه”
    You see the whole text says “we have sent down the book in truth confirming that which they had of the book before this …. And as a watcher over it (their book)”
    مهيمناً is the Arabic word, مهيمناً is an interesting word, it means quality control
    You’d use a form of that word to designate the man in a factory who stands at the end of the assembly line and find the rejects and throws them out
    The whole text .. that whole verse from the Quran says “The Quran confirms that which is truthful in their book and .. It’s the quality control agent .. It’s the thing that shows you which parts are not true”
    You don’t fool a Muslim by quoting that. If he goes and he looks it up himself and realizes you only red half the sentence
    It’s a dishonest quote
    Now of course .. some missionaries respond with great pain on their faces and say to the Muslim when the Muslim says “you have changed your scriptures ,, he says (oooooh how can you say that,, how could you as a Muslim change the Quran,, you couldn’t do that,, how could I change the bible”
    Well, the answer is very easy .. very easy .. the bible is not the same thing as the Quran,, for at least three reasons
    The Quran has always been in the hands of the people .. always .. from the time of the prophet people wrote it down if they can write and memorized it and so on and so on,, always been in the hands of the people
    Nobody ever disagreed on what were the contents
    The prophet died his friends met,, and they agreed by gathering all writings they had and said this is the Quran and no body disputed it,, nobody said no you left something out,, no this doesn’t belong,, nobody argued .. from the beginning
    The bible doesn’t have that history,, the bible has been the property of the church not the people
    The first table of contents to the bible that reads the same as the contents to the bible now dates from the year 367,, more than 300 years after Jesus,, finally they decided which books belong in the bible,, that’s point one
    Point two,, the bible is in dead languages .. the Quran is in a living language
    A 120,000,000 speak Arabic, the language of the Quran
    The bible is written in ancient Hebrew, ancient Aramaic, and ancient Greek which nobody speaks
    A handful scholar know it
    So that to change it,,, is an easy thing if you are a translator,, to read one thing and tell somebody something else,, that’s easy
    Third point, there has never been so much as a letter in dispute about the Quran, no one has even so much has said “this letter is wrong in your copy of the Quran” unless it’s a misprint
    But nobody ever dispute,, it should be this,, it should be that, and they have a battle over it
    Where the bible has come down from many many manuscripts
    Any bible that’s worth buying is filled with footnotes,, almost every page will have a footnote,, so you’d read the verse “footnote” read down here it says “or this verse might be..” and he gives you an alternate translation or what other manuscript says
    So when somebody says …, I mean it’s a shallow argument if somebody says “look Muslims can’t change the Quran, how could Christians change the bible”,,,, it’s because they are two different kinds of thing
    To doubt the authenticity of the bible is not a Muslim idea,, it’s not Muslims who became the enemies of the bible somehow, they are not enemies of the bible
    The doubtful authenticity of the bible is an old idea found within the bible
    It’s a biblical idea,, see if you ask the question “Who wrote the bible, I mean who took the ink and the pen and put the words on the page,, who did that”
    The answer “the scribes”,, that was their job in ancient time “the scribes” it mean they wrote the scriptures
    Well, in Jeremiah chapter 8 and verse 8 it talks about the scribes
    Now some Jews will tell you that Jeremiah is the only authentic book left in the whole bible
    I don’t believe that myself, but that’s how sure they are about Jeremiah
    The most authentic book in the bible, they say
    Jeremiah chapter 8 verse 8,, it says “how can you say, we are wise and the low of the lord is with us, but behold, the false pen of the scribe has made it into a lie”
    See in this place god is telling you “don’t be so sure that everything you have in your hands is scripture,, the scribes right lies with their pen,, watch out”
    Where are these lies if everything in the bible is legitimate
    So what I’m trying to get at is that the Muslim agrees with most churches
    Most churches say “yes, the bible contains the words of god and some other words besides that” the Muslim agrees
    The bible contains the words of god and some other words
    It’s only a minority Christian position who will say “every word in the bible came from god, none of it came from man” that’s a minority view, but it seems be the view the missionary feels he has to sell even if he doesn’t believe himself
    There is many ways of establishing that fact, but a basic point is made in Isaiah chapter 40 verse 8
    This is a verse that some people like so much, the bible I have there is a new American standard, the put it on the inside front cover, they like this verse so much, Isaiah 40 and 8
    It says, “The grass withers and the flower fails, but the word of our god stands forever”
    It’s saying if it’s the word of god it doesn’t get lost, it stands forever, god says it, it will always be there… according to this verse
    But the church that would say “the bible is totally without error”. Will always modify that
    By saying, they believe the bible to be inerrant, that its without error, inerrant .. in the original manuscript, not the manuscript we have today, in the original
    So that if you show someone, look .. this disagrees with that, or this is incorrect and so on, he can tell you “that’s true that’s a mistake, but that mistake was not in the original”
    Ask him “how did the mistake get here” .. he will tell you “the original got lost”
    Well then the original was not the word of god if it got lost, was it?
    Isaiah 40 and 8 says, if god says it, it doesn’t get lost
    The verse doesn’t say “the grass withers .. the flower fails, but the word of our god stands forever except for a few little details”
    There is no qualification
    And books have been written documenting the errors, and yet this excuse is still offered
    You see if the missionary would only make this concession, if he would only say “all right, not all the bible came from god” he be more believable
    I have a Muslim friend of mine in Toronto, who was besieged by a missionary group there, the fellowship of faith, who was whole goal in life is to convert Muslims
    Surrounded by them constantly, get him all kinds of literature in that
    The finally he told me .. he said “you know the miracle of this book (he meant the bible he said) is that people believe it came from god” .. you see that’s the miracle
    Because in the one hand people are trying to tell him it’s perfect and in the other hand they will tell you “well, accept here it’s not perfect” and so on, but that’s because it got lost and so on…. It’s an excuse that’s inconsistent with the claim
    If the missionary would say “not everything that we call scriptures should be called scripture”, if he would only say that, he would be more believable
    Now as I said, I know some of that probably is upsetting to some people, if it’s upsetting ask yourself why, did I make a mistake, did I say something that not true, if so .. what is it?
    My own personal experience , is not particularly exciting or anything, but may be they illustrate a course of events
    But you might find interesting
    You see when I was in high school, taught in high school by Franciscan later at university by Jesuits
    I got the highest grades they ever had in religion, used to rate A+++ across the front of the page
    Great grades, the teacher said “never had a student like this”, it’s terrific grades in religion
    But it occurred to me one day after 2 or 3 years of this,, somehow it registered on my mind (the reason the grades are high, is because I remember everything the man said)
    When it comes time for an exam, I can write everything I heard him saying, and give it back.. so I get a perfect mark
    That doesn’t mean it’s true, that was my frustration
    When I talk about my teacher saying “I can tell you all of this, I know the whole explanation, what is the proof”
    You see we have to always decide when somebody is having a conversation with us, are they explaining it or are they proving it?
    People usually fool themselves, the explain it, they think they are proving it
    If you ask somebody “how do you know Jesus died for your sins what’s the proof” he starts to tell you “well god is holly man is a sinner Jesus has to die and so on” that’s not the proof, that’s an explanation, that’s haw it’s supposed to work, I know that
    How do you know it happened you see, .. it’s the proof you want
    In the catholic church I couldn’t find that
    That proof,, because they tend to look to authorities other than the scripture (the bible)
    Don’t be confused.. if there is one thing I wish I can hammer into everybody’s head it’s this idea (explanation is not the same as proof)
    I asked a man the last time I was in Australia … same thing I said “how do you know man has to have his sins redeem”
    And he said “well god is 100% holly,, 100% holly,, you are a sinner,, god cannot deal with you directly because he is 100% holly .. you are certain percentage sinner”
    It’s an explanation ,, It’s an explanation but is it true
    You see think about it, if I told you that in New York City is the holiest man that ever lived
    I can talk about him for an hour may be, and build up a great reputation, I say “he is the holiest human being that ever lived”
    Finally may be you’d say, “well I’m going to save my money, I want to go to New York City and meet him, I want to shake his hand”
    And I tell you “No no no, he won’t even let you come in the same room with him, he is too holly, you can talk to his secretary, but he couldn’t stand to look at you, he is too holly”
    Now what do you think of this man?, is he holly or is he crazy?
    You see an explanation is an explanation, it may or may not be true, it’s proof for something else
    What I wanted was proof “did Jesus say so”
    I can end with discussion with a man who used to have a radio program on the bible
    And so I asked him if could prove to me some of the things he believed
    He said “I don’t have a bible” I said I “have one here”
    I put a bible which is called a red letter edition, the put all of the words of Jesus in red ink
    And I’d asked him “do you believe such and such” and he’d say “certainly, here is the proof” and he’d open up the bible and he greed me something from the black ink
    And I kept saying “No, show me in the red ink, did Jesus that thing, I know Paul said it and this and that and the other thing you tell me you believe
    Well he kept stoking my bible like it was a pet cat .. he was very fond of it
    But I kept pushing that way and pushing .. I kept saying “did Jesus say it”
    Suddenly he didn’t like the bible any more, and he threw it back in my face
    He said “you know what your problem is, you won’t believe it unless Jesus said it”
    Yes that’s my problem .. it should be his problem
    How does he dares to teach something and call himself a Christian if he can’t show you that Jesus said this thing he is talking about
    It should be easy to find, if Jesus said some of the things people say he said,… should be easy to find
    You know if you took all the words of Jesus reported in the bible, and eliminate the duplications, because you have the same story basically told 4 times
    If you eliminate the duplications, the total of all the words of Jesus do not even fill two columns of a newspaper
    It’s not very many words
    So if he said these different things you don’t really have a lot of work to look down and find them
    So as I say among protestant churches I have been involved with the church of England the Presbyterians Pentecostals Baptist Jehovah Witnesses Christadelphians you name them, you probably you can’t name one I haven’t heard of, unless it’s something local here
    To be involved with them for nine years
    I read their books and visited to part of their meetings, used to teach some of their bible classes
    I kept coming back to this “what proof do you offer, what proof”
    So they bring out a hand full of their favorite verses (John 3:16, 8:58, 10:30, 14:9, 20:28) and so on
    But for every one of those verses there is another verse which should be putted right beside that verse
    You find out what they were trying to say won’t work
    (Hebrew 11:17, Exodus chapter 3, John chapter 17, John chapter 5 and Exodus chapter 6) to go in the order of the verses I named you there
    You put those beside those verses and the argument dissolves among others
    It don’t prove the divinity of Jesus, .. doesn’t mean he is not diving, but these things don’t do the job
    That’s the problem, I’m not saying he is not diving, I’m saying “I still want to see the proof,.. did he say so”
    Then the real test of sincerity was what disappointed me
    You see you can take one of these verses somebody shows you, (John 14:9) for example Jesus said to Philip “if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the father”
    So I asked them “how is it he said in this other place to a group of people (you people have never seen the father), don’t tell me in this place he means he is god, when in this place he told some people who were looking at him (you have never seen god) he must mean something else”
    You tell somebody that and he will say “okay, you have a point, what about this verse” and he go to another verse,.. Its fine
    But next week somebody would come to that same man and say “where is the proof that Jesus said he was god”, he will read John 14:9 right back where he started from, a verse which a week ago he told me wasn’t good enough
    It will be good for somebody else because he hopes he does not know the response I had
    Beginning about 1969 … the same story I seem to get when I go from church to church and ask them “you know if you took all the words of Jesus and you cut them out of the bible with a seizers and then I gave you some paste and told you (put them back together any way you like … take all these words, put them back together,,, paste them together how you like) you still can’t make him spell out the trinity”
    He still doesn’t say anything about it .. no matter how you change his words
    So they tell me “it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. The trinity is an evolved understanding, the church didn’t understand this deep thought at first, they understanding evolved, with the centuries it was discussed, people came to understand it and believe it”
    Fine,, but if that what you say, you shouldn’t say in the other hand “Jesus used to preach it”
    If you tell me people didn’t figure it out for 200 years don’t tell me “Jesus preached it”
    And So they would say “no no, he preached it, but it is not in the bible, he used to preach it to his decibels, he told them about it”
    Well in the eighteenth chapter of John Jesus says very clearly “I taught nothing in secrete” said, everything I had to say I said in the market place
    He didn’t tell his decibels any secrets
    More solutions are offered to me
    People told me your problem you are not spiritual enough, believe then it’s easy, believe
    But you see, a person can’t make themselves believe if they know better
    What sometimes happens to human beings, they get a pain so their head is hurting
    They go to a doctor they tell him I got this pain it won’t go away
    The doctor make some tests, a full examination, maybe some x-ray and he finds that there is nothing wrong
    So he realizes the man’s problem is mental, It’s an imaginary pain
    He doesn’t tell the man that, he gives him a placebo, they are things that look like bills but they are only milk sugar
    Just sugar
    He goes to his patient and he says, “We have made some tests, this is the medicine you need, take these bills and in one day your pain should stop”
    It almost always does
    Because the man thinks he getting some medicine, and so his mental abilities get rid of the pain, that’s a placebo
    It works that way
    I can’t do the same thing with belief though, I can’t manufacture it
    You see if the doctor came to me and he said “you know your problem is mental, I have some sugar bills here
    Believe that these are medicine with all your hart, Believe they are medicine, try very hard, and when you believe that they are medicine the pain will go away, .. I can’t do it
    You told me they are sugar, I know better
    So in the same way, it’s not satisfactory when somebody comes and he says “believe believe believe”, how can you believe if you know better

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