Jen's Concerns

[MohammedMaksudul]

:salam2:

I agree that and I think I am myself very much indulged in arguments and probably even went beyond or did not even have any etiquettes of argument or disagreement in Islam. Arguments are not bad, you can learn from them. But yes the proper etiquettes of disagreement should be maintained and all talks should be supported with evidence from the Quran and Sunnah. I should start trying to follow all that I said right now, BarakAllahu Feek.

 

[justoneofmillion]

:salam2:I apologize sincerely to the thread starter,her post was very meaningful ,that is why I first answered to it.Afterwards somebody had to ruin it,I couldn't let go reading such lies.
Allah swt knows I have closed an eye many times by reading outrageous theories from the same user,the same things I hear more than often in antagonist medias,this time around it was too much.I used to chat in here once in a while and share my view with the fellas not to hear that nonsense coming out of mainstream medias. I guess invasion has become a tendency everywhere lately.Muslims mean no harm to anybody ,they just wanna be left alone to live the way they believe is right.Trade with people like Ron Paul said,don't invade them ,don't threaten them,don't rob them ,they will have no reason to despise you none of them will.

Sister tryingtolearn, no believing Muslim will dislike your children for being American especially if they are Muslim,it is a no go.May Allah swt make of them good Muslims

 

[abdul-aziz]

Cause we are "Kaffir" and "Kaffirs" are to be hated because they do not love Allah or Mohammad and it is the duty of Muslims to kill them.......

:salam2:

ehmm! your statement is total nonsense and is not correct at all.

but thats what you get when you rely on internet to obtain knowledge instead of meeting real people.

 

[samiha]

That thread did not deserve to be derailed, so here's a new one. I can't post just yet, but if a better title would be suited then Jen, please provide it on my profile (or otherwise) and I may change it inshaAllaah...

This site is for correcting misconceptions, so we're free to disagree and show our side, but please keep in consideration some basic manners. Thanks.

 

[booya]

:salam2:

1)It is not *my* logic.
2)*I* was not the one hunting a man for 10 years. The US government was.
3)*I* have been here since July of 2010. *I* participated in Ramadan, following the 5 prayers and fasting. *I* have defended Islam to my friends and to strangers.

I do not have any comments about this, but the above quote really interests me.

I apologize if I haven't followed this forum that closely, but I do know sister JenGiove is quite a regular here. But to clarify, you do not consider yourself a Muslim yet?

 

[tariq353]

Cause we are "Kaffir" and "Kaffirs" are to be hated because they do not love Allah or Mohammad and it is the duty of Muslims to kill them.......

i know very well sister that your concepts about Islam are clear and these are not your words

The word "kaafir" is played with in the same way the word "jihaad" is otherwise they are simple arabic words one means "Non believers" and other means "Struggle".

Once i was talking to a hindu, i asked do you believe in Allah he said "NO". I asked what about the word Kafir he said thats ugly. i asked do you believe in Jihaad he said "no". ok do you believe in struggling for the cause of truth......he said "yes".
I replied ok Suppose if Your Bhagwat Geeta is translated in Arabic all words will be translated like this--

God=Allah, Non Believer=Kafir, Struggling for the cause=Jihaad.




and one of the required condition to go to heaven is calling other to truth (Dawah & Islaha).

Quran 103:3 Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience.

There is no such requirement (killing Kaafir) in either pillar of Islam, faith or conditions required to go to heaven(Al Asr).

But i know they present these verses(as usual out of context without background)

Quran 9:5 kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.


Now read the same in context with background

Quran 9:
3. And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away – then know that you will not cause failure to Allah. And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
4. Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
5. And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
6. And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah [i.e., the Quran]. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

Backgroung-Unilateral Breaking of peace treaty by mushriks.Time was given to come back otherwise declaration of war....so these verses are like guidelines for war not a general statement
Time given to come back to treaty.
Critics
Critics Hides these verses




Sahih Muslim 2098:
It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Abu Laila that while Qais b. Sa'd and Sahl b. Hunaif were both in Qadislyya a bier passed by them and they both stood up. They were told that it was the bier of one of the people of the land (non−Muslim). They said that a bier passed before the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) and he stood up. He was told that he (the dead man) was a Jew. Upon this he remarked: Was he not a human being or did he not have a soul?


Quran 5:32
Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.
(no where it states Muslim only, mankind = entire humanity)


Peace

 

[abdul-aziz]

That thread did not deserve to be derailed, so here's a new one. I can't post just yet, but if a better title would be suited then Jen, please provide it on my profile (or otherwise) and I may change it inshaAllaah...

This site is for correcting misconceptions, so we're free to disagree and show our side, but please keep in consideration some basic manners. Thanks.

:salam2:

ehmm! your statement is total nonsense and is not correct at all.

but thats what you get when you rely on internet to obtain knowledge instead of meeting real people.

:salam2:

you know why I said what I said, can't stand an instigator. She was commenting to someone who is not a muslim but married and knows real live muslims. Now I have seen this person this forum and almost never post or respond to information by this person.

I really would not like to continue either. Just don't like it when someone is trying to learn and someone else has a deep rooted islamophobe statement comes out. They know good and well the internet is abundantly full of varying ideas of subjects, but here on tti, it's Quran and Sunnah and that is what Islam is all about.

Now normally I would quote a few hadith and some quran to prove this statement is not true. I feel it is not necessary because it's one thing to learn and it's another thing to just throw delusional statements.

 

[samiha]

I want to start off my post by saying that I made thread not for attack but understanding. Jen, if I honestly hadn’t known you better – I would have been very offended by some of what you wrote, but in either case, I believe this needs response and not just ‘closure’.

Cause we are "Kaffir" and "Kaffirs" are to be hated because they do not love Allah or Mohammad and it is the duty of Muslims to kill them.......

Here’s a short story: Once I went to a hospital for an x-ray, and while waiting for it to happen I ended up sitting next to a woman who was similarly there. She was very old subhanAllaah, hooked up to some machine she had to constantly cart around with her, and we got into a conversation. Eventually it turned to religion, as in my parts it’s rare to see a Muslim anyways, and what she said shocked me, “Of course it’s not everyone, I know there’s good and bad in every religion. But some of the other Muslims you know out there, they hate us, they can’t stand our freedoms, they want to kill all the infidels.” (And similar statements.)

I was stunned, but I understood. She was old, this was what the media had fed her, Fox News and its like, these simplistic self-righteous perpetuated myths, which don’t encompass the greater world, is all she was exposed to. I didn’t want to go into politics with her, not then and there, but how I wished I could have corrected it. So if this is my chance to do so, with someone else, I’m all the more grateful to do so.

-----

So firstly I’d like to say that I don’t think it’s appropriate to speak on behalf of the dead, especially not when they are not there to defend themselves. Just as we would not like anyone to speak for us, dead or alive – we should not walk around assuming reasons unless it came directly from the source. Don’t take what the media feeds, find your own truth.

Secondly, the “hate our freedom” – “kill all infidels” story is honestly just plain old and shallow. People don’t pick a day to wake up and think, “Let’s kill” … and you will not find this in the words of people who have even committed crimes. I’m not going to use my own words for this, but would like to direct you to the writing of John Tyner, an American who puts things in a very frank way. I’m not saying I agree with everything he says, but going to show this is not just apparent to Muslims, but is a politically understood thing:

I agree with you that in the event of another terrorist attack, you will likely be called upon to go overseas and fight another war in the name of freedom. You should ask your commanding officers, and ultimately, the president, however, if your fighting in those wars makes us safer. Terrorist attacks do not take place in a vacuum. The Times Square bomber viewed himself as defending his "lands" against foreign occupation. The underwear bomber acted in retaliation for "American-backed airstrikes [...] in Yemen." Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda group attacked us on September 11th because of our interventionist foreign policies and our presence in Saudi Arabia. Don't forget that we actually backed Osama bin Laden in the 80's in his fight against the Soviet Union.

It goes on and on, and don't get me wrong. I fully support a strong national defense. What I oppose is a strong national offense that imposes U.S. will on other peoples. Despite the rhetoric, terrorists don't hate our freedoms. They just want us to leave them alone.

http://johnnyedge.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-will-i-say.html

You see, Osama bin Laden killed innocent civilians on September 11th, 2001. Therefore he is evil, and not only was his killing justified but morally right. On the contrary, our soldiers are overseas doing good work, and when they are killed, that is wrong. Never mind that the "rebels" in Afghanistan see us as an invading and occupying force; never mind that America regularly kills civilians as part of its eternal war on terror; never mind that America locks up and tortures "militants", denying them any sort of access to a justice system to sort out their guilt or innocence; never mind that America has "peacefully" killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions, via sanctions of various kinds. Everyone wants to point to 9/11 as if bin Laden started this fight and America's hands are clean, but it's been going on for much, much longer. All of those American actions I just cited have been and continue to be used as justifications for Al Qaeda's actions. And regardless of how it started, it is only escalating.

But, there are likely those that remain unconvinced that America has any responsibility for the fight in which it now finds itself, but, nevertheless, it must see it through. That is, they believe that "we didn't start the fight, but we're going to finish it." So then, when does it end? If one truly believes that we are going to finish it, then the answer would be "when we've killed or captured all of the terrorists". As I pointed out, though, capturing terrorists and refusing to bring them to justice -- for those that have forgotten, justice means a trial in a court of law, not vigilante killings or indefinite detention -- or killing them, especially when unarmed, tends to drive more people into the fight. This so-called solution actually perpetuates the problem. Yet, it seems to be the solution America is intent on carrying out.

Attorney General Eric Holder sat in front of the U.S. Senate and had this to say about the whole affair:
The operation in which Osama bin Laden was killed was lawful. He was the head of al-Qaida, an organization that had conducted the attacks of September 11th. He admitted his involvement and he indicated that he would not be taken alive. The operation against bin Laden was justified as an act of national self defense.

Ah, national defense. Of course. I wish Mr. Holder would have gone on to explain exactly what our military was defending when it shot and killed an unarmed man. Apparently, bin Laden resisted, but I find it hard to believe that a team of highly trained and very well armed men were unable to subdue a frail, old man in regular need of dialysis, without killing him. Jeffrey Toobin explains that the U.S. had to kill bin Laden because messy details like whether bin Laden would be given a civilian or military trial, who would defend him, and where his case would be held are just too difficult for us to sort out. That's right; when the government has a "difficult" problem on it's hands, killing people is the only way out. I'm not sure why that same principle didn't apply to Saddam Hussein or Khalid Sheik Mohammed.

But let me return to the idea of national defense brought up by Mr. Holder. Exactly what are we defending with our actions overseas? The knee-jerk answer is always "freedom". It's hard for me to believe that anyone can still respond this way with a straight face; I'm chuckling to myself a bit just writing this. Even if it were true, though, what will be left should we ever finish fighting this war on terror? We've abandoned the idea of innocent until proven guilty. We've abandoned the idea that people are entitled to a trial before being assessed any sort of punishment (including death). We've abandoned the idea that our government is subject to the same laws as the people. If the war on terror, by some miracle, ever does come to an end, we will find that we were busy throwing away our freedom, all the while claiming that our military was overseas fighting for it.

The truth is that we're not fighting for freedom. We're fighting for empire. We're fighting to bring the rest of the world under our control.

http://johnnyedge.blogspot.com/2011/05/when-does-it-end.html


Truth is, despite differences people might have about what really occurred on 9/11 fact of the matter is, it’s not even remotely true that it was just because they think, “It’s the duty of the Muslims to kill them.” – If it was, why not pick France, why not Canada, why not the Netherlands…? Just because America was just the biggest target? No, rather American foreign policies were corrupt from the onset, and in fact it can be justly said, America breed its own terrorist attacks by its actions.

As a brother well put it: OBL and the Al-Qaeda ideology didn’t just fall out of the clear blue sky, they were born in face of oppression and murder. And if you have forgotten what it was like pre 9/11 let me remind you…

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it.
–60 Minutes (5/12/96)

Please read that a few times then read this GENOCIDE BY SANCTIONS. Is that human? In any degree shape or form, the policies America took pre- 9/11 was far from morally superior, and what was their excuse for it?

I’m not justifying anything; I’m just saying the reality of the situation is far more complicated than that simplistic understanding.

I have more to say, but it seems it'll have to wait...

 

[Mabsoot]

Assalamu alaykum,

The correct way to call Christians and Jews is Ahlul Kitaab, The People of the Book, for that is what they are. Its the right and respectful term for them. - The early Muslims did not go around calling non-Muslims as "kafrs" or "kuffar". Its not exactly going to attract their endearment towards Islam. However, we do use these words to describe non-Muslims in general. It is not used directly when we speak to a non-Muslim. You should not be offended when you see these words written. - Perhaps some people use these words in the wrong way, but, you can not judge an entire religion and its billions of believers due to the words and actions of a few.

We should have people look at Islam for what it really is about, starting with the true belief in Allah, our Lord and the creator of all that exists.

-- and Jen, No, its not the duty of Muslims to kill people... any people.

Please look at the following thread, it tries to offer a little glimpse into the problems facing the muslim world:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2368

May I add that this does not excuse the use of violence and extremism perpetrated against innocent men, women and children. A person may be starving hungry, but it does not give him the excuse to do armed robbery. - Osama Bin Laden may not have plotted 9/11, but he certainly did air extremist views and openly incited others to carry out bombings in muslim countries and in non-Muslim countries and this is something that is condemned. But, its ironic that a man who killed thousands is called the most evil murderer in the world by those who have the blood of millions.

And Allah knows best.

 

[saifkhan]

As-salam 'alaikum

i can still smell the poisonous smell of nationalism, about the two things that Rasul Allah salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam has warned us about the sickness of Ayyam al-jahiliyah, one of those is: nationalism.

wa'llahu a'lam

wassalam

PS: I just put the reply reading some first replies

 

[hayat84]

:salam2:@BROTHER jUSTONEOFAMILLION,I wish to make you know that the expression "madonna mia" is a bad expression,because you mentioned the name of Maryam AS,the mother of 'Isa AS.many italians use this expression to offense her while backbitig.so brother,be careful about what you say:astag:

while everybody here is discussing,in the world many innocents are really dieing

 

[hayat84]

I know that there is a difference between "kuffar" and "kafir".if I am not wrong,the fisrt one means "someone who disobey/he knows Allah's existence,but he chooses not to follow His orders),while the second one means"disbeliever"(the one who refuses Allah's way:the munafiqin,kadhibin).maybe I made a mistake,but the sense is obvious.
every muslim has the duty to be pious,patient,kind...but if somebody/anybody attacs his honour/family/faith,he must defend it.a muslim kills only in case of defense,not to attac.
"wa qatilu fi sabil lillahi wa a'lamu anna llaha sami'un 'alimun.man dhalladhi yuqriddu llaha qardddan hasanan fayudda'ifuhu lahuu add'afan kathiiratan wa llahu yaqbidddu wa yabssuttu wa ilaihi turjia'una.(vv.242-243 surah al baqara)
:shake:

 

[justoneofmillion]

:salam2:@BROTHER jUSTONEOFAMILLION,I wish to make you know that the expression "madonna mia" is a bad expression,because you mentioned the name of Maryam AS,the mother of 'Isa AS.many italians use this expression to offense her while backbitig.so brother,be careful about what you say:astag:

while everybody here is discussing,in the world many innocents are really dieing

:salam2:Sister I speak Italian very well,I've grown up with Italians,sometimes when I get a little angry it is either Italian or Arabic..I don't know why.I have studied Petrarca ,Dante, Pirandello, Manzoni...etc in Italy in Friuli Venezia Giullia, and my cousins are half Italian. I know what Madonna means it is not necessarily a derogatory term,it depends of the word you attach to it.It is an exclamation of amazement.I would never use it in a derogatory fashion.I have grown up with people from different backgrounds,race and nationality you know since my childhood,there were Arabs,French ,Germans,Pols,turks,Africans,Jews...etc .

I can not stand either racial or nationalistic connotations.I do not see why when you do not agree with somebody you are necessarily a hater,a racist. I do not comprehend it,I don't think like that.And when somebody tells you "You hate me,because of where a come from"I believe that is not fair at all ,and that am completely misunderstood .Am mixed myself, how could I?.Never does it occur in my mind that I hate a certain people because of the color of their skin or or the country they belong to,Am the first to wanna learn about different cultures,languages,foods ...etc.

Killing innocents is Haraam in Islam.but then there is a difference between explaining why certain people do this and agreeing with what they do.There is a difference between analyzing a process that goes on the mind of somebody like that and justifying it.And the least you can expect from somebody that is getting in contact with Muslims and claiming not to have any prejudice is to make that difference and not simply repeat what they heard in the medias,who are nothing but war sealers most of the time,the same medias that tell sisters they are oppressed by the Niquaab or the Hijaab then you see the sister answer "Am not,this is my choice"the medias then carry on "you are oppressed but you don't know it"I mean...and then the follow up they pick some girl that doesn't wanna wear it and bombard us with documentaries on how she was forced and had to escape her family...etc.

If one thinks that these kind of medias are simply reporting the news without a certain ideology behind,they have to wake up.The same goes for other subjects,I even heard last time some journalist say on a report that Nudity is not forbidden in the Quraan according to "specialists" wallahi!because of a Turkish father that has broken relation with his daughters after she posed in Playboy!More than this, do we really need to be religious to know it is blatantly false subhanallah,yet the medias perpetuate this kind of Ideas to a foolishly ensnared volk too busy watching star academy and farm of celebrity And god knows what other nonsense. .

Even for those who believe that Ben Laden did 911,they usually know why,without especially being involved with Muslim.They tell you it is because of U.S foreign policy,because of it's aid towards the Zionist state that is killing Muslims..etc because of it's continues invasions and interferences.they do not simplify matters such as to say like Bush once said"They hate our Freedom"That Coming from a country that has bombarded others for more than 27 times since 1945 is quite dishonest..Lives are at stack here,people's homes,livelihoods ,their families,their futures and the future of their children.We are seeing people getting completely torn apart in pieces by bombs,burned by white phosphorous.

The least we can do is not to propose a simplistic analysis of the matter,else it would be an insult to their memories.A lot of Muslims have said repeatedly that if 911 was ever proven to have been done by Muslims than not in our name neither in the name of our religion,but now what about the perpetuate killings of the U.S government,why are Americans not standing up and saying no to this? why is everything hidden under the rug,left in denial?Most the Muslims I know never heard of this Al Qaeda thing,we discovered it like everybody else,we do not know who they are and where they are.But your criminals on the other hands you know them very well,they are sitting behind desks and quite easy to find.What do you expect me to say?that I hate Bin Laden ,that he is the devil ,and that he is going to hell?never will you hear that from my mouth, am no uncle Tom,I hate what he did if he really did it, but I don't hate Muslims and I do not have to keys to heaven,Allah swt will judge.

Finally, I apologize to the brothers and sisters who might have been displeased with the way I said things.Am quite straight forward and bold Sometimes,I don't like to beat around the bush that much.Life makes one like this,I really mean no harm.I will try to better myself in this regard.May Allah swt protect you all.

Mabsoot ya Akhi and sister Samiha A'atdir.may Allah reward you for all you efforts

 

[hayat84]

:salam2:
brother I was born in Italy,grew up there,studied the same you studied...I may suppose that if you could have a discussion by person,you'd be happy.I don't want to make you feel angry,but anger in Islam shouldn't exist.as muslim you should know that the shaytan is friend of anger.that expression is in a certain manner a way to imitate those who are too "full of themselves".when I heard my mum sying that words,I exclaimed:why don't you leave Maryam in peace?she's the mother of 'Isa and she doesn't enter in this discussion!don't make the war where it isn't necessary,I'm italian too,but dislike some kids of terms while I'm reading the posts.it's an opinion,maybe the moderators don't even know the weight of some expressions.

 

[justoneofmillion]

:salam2:
brother I was born in Italy,grew up there,studied the same you studied...I may suppose that if you could have a discussion by person,you'd be happy.I don't want to make you feel angry,but anger in Islam shouldn't exist.as muslim you should know that the shaytan is friend of anger.that expression is in a certain manner a way to imitate those who are too "full of themselves".when I heard my mum sying that words,I exclaimed:why don't you leave Maryam in peace?she's the mother of 'Isa and she doesn't enter in this discussion!don't make the war where it isn't necessary,I'm italian too,but dislike some kids of terms while I'm reading the posts.it's an opinion,maybe the moderators don't even know the weight of some expressions.

:salam2:Ok I will not say that word,if it makes you feel unease,I intend it differently.However, would it be better if I said "Dio mio!" or 'Santo cielo!"Is that fair?

 

[samiha]

Hmmm...you can't think of one single country where Muslims kill kaffir in great number? Islamicly sanctioned or not, I think the situation in Israel might come to mind for me. The USA was targeted because because it is reported that they are the puppets to Zionests and the greatest oppressors.

The situation in Israel as well is far from simple as well; the sheer disparity of death numbers in that country, and the actual facts from the ground make it almost impossible to critisize. So stating it in this one-sided manner is quite offensive, because it makes it seem as though they are murderous without reason, they attack without cause, that they do so because the other party is 'kaafir', when that's not the case at all.

Take a look at these two things, might make the matter clearer:

Israelis and Palestinians Killed in the Current Violence
At least 6,430 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.

A bit old but still relevant:
[yt]2yTSUwmeAt4[/yt]

The other parts are there on YT.

 

[alf2]

I do not have any comments about this, but the above quote really interests me.

I apologize if I haven't followed this forum that closely, but I do know sister JenGiove is quite a regular here. But to clarify, you do not consider yourself a Muslim yet?

She is not a Muslim and has no desire to be a Muslim.
She follows Native American beliefs.

 

[alf2]

Wait, so is this thread still about Muslims hating Kaffirs? Because I do not understand what subject most of you are on about...It goes from Muslims/Non Muslims, to Bin Laden, to Palestine? Slow your horses people :<

Anyway, Muslims dont hate and want to kill Kaffirs. As Br. Mabsoot said, "People of the Book" are very respected in Islam and prophet Muhammad lived amongst non-Muslims peacefully many times and made peace treaties with them.

Terrorism has NO religion, and if they were right Muslims in non-Muslim countries would be killing their neighbors left and right :/ Better yet, they wouldnt leave Muslim countries to start with!

Also, Jen...you should have really added more information to your thread topic. I can see how it can be taken the wrong way...Which I can see people did...This is why I put lots of information in my topics explaining the purpose...

 

[hayat84]

:salam2:
yes brother,I prefere those expressions,but I use to say "ya rabbi".
Since I'm here in Morocco,I'm forgetting italian langauge,I regret when I'll go to Italy again,because I really love morocco and the ADHAN near home.instead I must go there,among a mess of "kafara billah":blackhijab:.it makes me laugh,becuase I use such a term when i think badly about some neighbors I don't like,thery are really "kafara billah" but they are happy.I don't hate kaffirs,but I stay kilometres far from their sight.in Itlay I found that there is much more Fitnah,than in some other places.maybe it's wrong.

 

[samiha]

Also, Jen...you should have really added more information to your thread topic. I can see how it can be taken the wrong way...Which I can see people did...This is why I put lots of information in my topics explaining the purpose...

:salam2:

I'm going to apologize, that's my doing. This whole discussion was part of another thread on the forum which I did not feel needed derailing, because it was on a very different topic and this was not appropriate, but I felt her concerns and thoughts needed addressing, so I made it into a new thread.

She can feel free to flesh out or explain the first post, or also change the title otherwise.