Many questions about some verses

[Peter_502]

Hello and salaam alaikum.

I was wondering if the Muslim posters here could please address some questions I have about these verses, would be much appreciated.

6:131
This is because your Lord would not destroy the (populations of) towns for their wrong-doing (i.e. associating others in worship along with Allah) while their people were unaware (so the Messengers were sent).

11:117
And your Lord would never destroy the towns wrongfully, while their people were right-doers.

28:59
And never will your Lord destroy the towns (populations) until He sends to their mother town a Messenger reciting to them Our Verses. And never would We destroy the towns unless the people thereof are Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, oppressors and tyrants).

The verses below are from the Mohsin Khan translation. Some other translators translate them as he does (in the present), while others in the past tense, like Shakir.
Are these verses referring to past events only or also today? Do Muslims believe God still destroys communities and towns for rejecting Islam and being sinful, or did He only do this up to the time of Muhammad?

26:28,29 states:
And never did We destroy a township but it had its warners
By way of reminder, and We have never been unjust.

What does it mean "We have never been unjust"?
I also see also 11:117 that states that God would never destroy towns "wrongfully". What does this mean, and why would that be connected with "while their people were right-doers"? Is the implication that it would be unjust of God to destroy towns and villages filled with people who do the right thing?

Lastly, what is the verse below a reference to?

17:16
And when We decide to destroy a town (population), We (first) send a definite order (to obey Allah and be righteous) to those among them [or We (first) increase in number those of its population] who lead a life of luxury. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then We destroy it with complete destruction.

Sounds like before a town is destroyed, its people are warned first? Again, is this a reference to only events before the life of Muhammad or also afterwards?

Many thanks

 

[cabdixakim]

Wa'aleykas'salaam

Are these verses referring to past events only or also today? Do Muslims believe God still destroys communities and towns for rejecting Islam and being sinful, or did He only do this up to the time of Muhammad?

“and had it not been for a Word that had gone forth before from your Lord, the case would have been judged between them, and indeed they are in grave doubt concerning it (this Qur’aan)"[Q 11:110]

“And had it not been for a Word that went forth before from your Lord, and a term determined, (their punishment) must necessarily have come (in this world)”[Q 20:129]

“And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of mercy. Were He to call them to account for what they have earned, then surely, He would have hastened their punishment. But they have their appointed time, beyond which they will find no escape”[Q 18:58]

“Consider not that Allaah is unaware of that which the Zaalimoon (polytheists, wrongdoers) do, but He gives them respite up to a Day when the eyes will stare in horror”[Q 14:42]

It is seen from these verses that Allah(SWT) respites the disbelievers/wrongdoers/aggressors/sinners of this Ummah upto to the Day of Judgement and thus muslims believe that their destruction/doom/complete annihilation in this world as it happened for previous nations will not be by the wisdom and Decree of Allah.

As for those previously destroyed then; Allah does not destroy people except that He sent a warner,they transgressed and deserved the punishment... And Allah does not destroy a village and therein are righteous people until the evil and sin predominates the good.

Sounds like before a town is destroyed, its people are warned first? Again, is this a reference to only events before the life of Muhammad or also afterwards?

Do you know of an event where a people got destroyed by Allah as a punishment after the Prophet(p.b.u.h)?...

I can't understand where you're coming from... but let me remind you that there will be no warner sent by God after Muhammad(p.b.u.h) and thus for anyone after him, he in the message he carried(promised to be preserved by Allah) is the warner.

 

[Peter_502]

Wa'aleykas'salaam

“and had it not been for a Word that had gone forth before from your Lord, the case would have been judged between them, and indeed they are in grave doubt concerning it (this Qur’aan)"[Q 11:110]

“And had it not been for a Word that went forth before from your Lord, and a term determined, (their punishment) must necessarily have come (in this world)”[Q 20:129]

“And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of mercy. Were He to call them to account for what they have earned, then surely, He would have hastened their punishment. But they have their appointed time, beyond which they will find no escape”[Q 18:58]

“Consider not that Allaah is unaware of that which the Zaalimoon (polytheists, wrongdoers) do, but He gives them respite up to a Day when the eyes will stare in horror”[Q 14:42]

It is seen from these verses that Allah(SWT) respites the disbelievers/wrongdoers/aggressors/sinners of this Ummah upto to the Day of Judgement and thus muslims believe that their destruction/doom/complete annihilation in this world as it happened for previous nations will not be by the wisdom and Decree of Allah.

Salaam alaikum, and thank you for your answer to the first part of this question.

As for those previously destroyed then; Allah does not destroy people except that He sent a warner,they transgressed and deserved the punishment... And Allah does not destroy a village and therein are righteous people until the evil and sin predominates the good.

Do you know of an event where a people got destroyed by Allah as a punishment after the Prophet(p.b.u.h)?...

Allah does destroy many villages and sometimes entire cities. Look at tsunamis and earthquakes and volcanic outbreaks, which have claimed lives sometimes tens of thousands. God sends them on Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Who sends them if not God?

26:29 states "and we have never been unjust" after 26:28 which states God did not destroy villages full of unbelievers before a warner came to them. It sounds like it would have been unjust to have destroyed them without sending a warner.
Are warners sent to villages today before natural disasters destroy them?

And if God would not destroy righteous villages and towns in the past, why would He do so now? Look for example at what happened in Aceh in 2004. Are you saying that in these villages where over 100,000 died and whole communities were erased, the evil people outweighed the good?

I can't understand where you're coming from... but let me remind you that there will be no warner sent by God after Muhammad(p.b.u.h) and thus for anyone after him, he in the message he carried(promised to be preserved by Allah) is the warner.

True, that is what Islam teaches.

However, naural disasters sometimes strike and do great damage in places that have not heard of Muhammad or had been exposed to Islam.

Thank you for your answers, I look forward to continuing this discussion. Masalaam.

 

[cabdixakim]

Salaam alaikum, and thank you for your answer to the first part of this question.


Allah does destroy many villages and sometimes entire cities. Look at tsunamis and earthquakes and volcanic outbreaks, which have claimed lives sometimes tens of thousands. God sends them on Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Who sends them if not God?

26:29 states "and we have never been unjust" after 26:28 which states God did not destroy villages full of unbelievers before a warner came to them. It sounds like it would have been unjust to have destroyed them without sending a warner.
Are warners sent to villages today before natural disasters destroy them?

And if God would not destroy righteous villages and towns in the past, why would He do so now? Look for example at what happened in Aceh in 2004. Are you saying that in these villages where over 100,000 died and whole communities were erased, the evil people outweighed the good?


True, that is what Islam teaches.

However, naural disasters sometimes strike and do great damage in places that have not heard of Muhammad or had been exposed to Islam.

Thank you for your answers, I look forward to continuing this discussion. Masalaam.

Wa'aleykumas'salaam

I somehow knew you would mention earthquakes,Tsunamis... God only knows why I erased that from my first post as further explanation... perhaps I may have found it irrelevant...

Firstly, there is a difference between Destruction/complete annihilation of people and afflictions such as increased dishonesty,earthquakes,Tsunamis that occur in our world... The former engulfed the entire nation,none except the righteous was spared; it was,in a nutshel ,a punishment. While the latter comes as a test, does not engulf the whole nation; it is a trial.

Secondly, Earthquake, Tsunamis etc are geographical phenomena... their occurrence doesn't necessaririly denote to a punishment from God... If a turbulant sea capsizes a boat and the people drowned, would that be a punishment from God?... The people killed in an earthquake or Tsunami were decreed to die at that moment by such and such, just it was decreed for the Pilgrims who died in this recent Hajj; or was it too a punishment from God?... And I had said in my first post that the punishment of this Ummah is respited for a promised day,Day of judgement based on the verses I quoted... so what convinced you that earthquakes are indeed a punishment from Allah to bring this nation to an end?

Thirdly, Allah afflicts both the good and evildoers if evil predominates good such that even when the good have power and might they do not stop or warn the sinners from sinning and are either not bothered or pleased with sin and its people then they're to fear an affliction that encompasses all as understood in the Qur'an:

"And fear a trial which will not strike those who have wronged among you exclusively, and know that Allah is severe in penalty."(Q 8:25)

And many hadiths of the prophet(p.b.u.h)...

An earthquake,a Tsunami maybe regarded as an affliction, a trial_ for the living and how they help the victims, knowing how insignificant and weak they truly are and taking lessons that change their lives towards obedience to their Creator. And a test_ for the survivors, how they show patience and faith after such a disaster and how grateful they should feel of escaping such a calamity... And for those who died, death was decreed for them and it was decreed that it will come in such a manner( just as 100 individuals can die in a plane crush or under a collapsed building) and each will be resurrected individually; the good getting the forgiveness and pleasure of their creator(as mentioned in a hadith) and the evildoers Justly reckoned for their deeds.

 

[Peter_502]

Wa'aleykumas'salaam

May the peace of God be upon you also.

I somehow knew you would mention earthquakes,Tsunamis... God only knows why I erased that from my first post as further explanation... perhaps I may have found it irrelevant...

Firstly, there is a difference between Destruction/complete annihilation of people and afflictions such as increased dishonesty,earthquakes,Tsunamis that occur in our world... The former engulfed the entire nation,none except the righteous was spared; it was,in a nutshel ,a punishment. While the latter comes as a test, does not engulf the whole nation; it is a trial.

Are you sure entire nations were engulfed in punishments? This was the case for the 'Ad and Thamud, but not the people of Ancient Egypt (only Pharaoh and some of his ministers and soldiers were drowned according to the Quran) or the Jewish people after they denied Jesus (God sent armies against them twice and while they did a lot of damage and sacked Jerusalem, they certainly did not kill all of them).
The verse talks about entire towns being destroyed.
Certainly, natural disasters do sometimes destroy entire towns and villages, as was the case in the 2004 Tsunami which wiped out entire localities in some of the countries it struck.

Secondly, Earthquake, Tsunamis etc are geographical phenomena... their occurrence doesn't necessaririly denote to a punishment from God... If a turbulant sea capsizes a boat and the people drowned, would that be a punishment from God?... The people killed in an earthquake or Tsunami were decreed to die at that moment by such and such, just it was decreed for the Pilgrims who died in this recent Hajj; or was it too a punishment from God?... And I had said in my first post that the punishment of this Ummah is respited for a promised day,Day of judgement based on the verses I quoted... so what convinced you that earthquakes are indeed a punishment from Allah to bring this nation to an end?

I hear what you are saying, but would some of the punishments in the Quran also not be natural disasters?
For example the nations of Lot were destroyed by a volcano. The nation of Noah was destroyed by a flood.

Also, as you yourself stated, God send afflictions to communities if "evil predominates good". How is an "affliction" different from a "punishment"?

Also, God said in 11:117 that He would never destroy people "wrongfully", if they were doing right.
Does this not imply that it would be 'wrong' to destroy the just?
If it would have been 'wrong' of God to do so before Muhammad, why does He do so today?

Thirdly, Allah afflicts both the good and evildoers if evil predominates good such that even when the good have power and might they do not stop or warn the sinners from sinning and are either not bothered or pleased with sin and its people then they're to fear an affliction that encompasses all as understood in the Qur'an:

"And fear a trial which will not strike those who have wronged among you exclusively, and know that Allah is severe in penalty."(Q 8:25)

And many hadiths of the prophet(p.b.u.h)...

If according to the Quran, God gives respite to sinners until the Day of Judgement, then why send trials that "strike" them (as well as those who have done no wrong)? Doesn't this contradict with the statement He will give them "respite"?

An earthquake,a Tsunami maybe regarded as an affliction, a trial_ for the living and how they help the victims, knowing how insignificant and weak they truly are and taking lessons that change their lives towards obedience to their Creator. And a test_ for the survivors, how they show patience and faith after such a disaster and how grateful they should feel of escaping such a calamity... And for those who died, death was decreed for them and it was decreed that it will come in such a manner( just as 100 individuals can die in a plane crush or under a collapsed building) and each will be resurrected individually; the good getting the forgiveness and pleasure of their creator(as mentioned in a hadith) and the evildoers Justly reckoned for their deeds.

The first two reasons make sense... at least in parts of the world where people are either Muslim or have heard about Islam. When the Quran was written, that was a very small part of the world and even until the second part of the 20th century, many parts of the world had known nothing of Islam.

When natural disasters struck 18th century South America for example, the people would turn to the Triune God and the saints if they were Catholic, or the animist gods if they were Aboriginal.
26:28,29 says that God never destroyed towns before sending them warners, and the reason for that is because He was never unjust. Implication seems to be it would be unjust to destroy towns before sending them warners.
Yet no warners were sent for example to the InterAndean Valley in Ecuador, which was devastated by an earthquake in 1797, one which destroyed entire cities. The first Muslims to have arrived in Ecuador arrived after the First World War, so there is no way they would have known about Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1797_Riobamba_earthquake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Ecuador

The third category seems to contradict with the verses you posted earlier.... not people dying, that always happens of course. The conflict is with God sending trials that kill people, and God also allegedly giving respite to the evil-doers until the Day of Judgement.
Either He is still punishing communities of Zalimoon in this life, or He is laying off punishment until the Day of Judgement.

Nice talking with you, thanks for this good discussion, looking forward to hearing back. Take care and God bless you.

 

[cabdixakim]

May the peace of God be upon you also.


Are you sure entire nations were engulfed in punishments? This was the case for the 'Ad and Thamud, but not the people of Ancient Egypt (only Pharaoh and some of his ministers and soldiers were drowned according to the Quran) or the Jewish people after they denied Jesus (God sent armies against them twice and while they did a lot of damage and sacked Jerusalem, they certainly did not kill all of them).
The verse talks about entire towns being destroyed.
Certainly, natural disasters do sometimes destroy entire towns and villages, as was the case in the 2004 Tsunami which wiped out entire localities in some of the countries it struck.


I hear what you are saying, but would some of the punishments in the Quran also not be natural disasters?
For example the nations of Lot were destroyed by a volcano. The nation of Noah was destroyed by a flood.

Also, as you yourself stated, God send afflictions to communities if "evil predominates good". How is an "affliction" different from a "punishment"?

Also, God said in 11:117 that He would never destroy people "wrongfully", if they were doing right.
Does this not imply that it would be 'wrong' to destroy the just?
If it would have been 'wrong' of God to do so before Muhammad, why does He do so today?


If according to the Quran, God gives respite to sinners until the Day of Judgement, then why send trials that "strike" them (as well as those who have done no wrong)? Doesn't this contradict with the statement He will give them "respite"?


The first two reasons make sense... at least in parts of the world where people are either Muslim or have heard about Islam. When the Quran was written, that was a very small part of the world and even until the second part of the 20th century, many parts of the world had known nothing of Islam.

When natural disasters struck 18th century South America for example, the people would turn to the Triune God and the saints if they were Catholic, or the animist gods if they were Aboriginal.
26:28,29 says that God never destroyed towns before sending them warners, and the reason for that is because He was never unjust. Implication seems to be it would be unjust to destroy towns before sending them warners.
Yet no warners were sent for example to the InterAndean Valley in Ecuador, which was devastated by an earthquake in 1797, one which destroyed entire cities. The first Muslims to have arrived in Ecuador arrived after the First World War, so there is no way they would have known about Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1797_Riobamba_earthquake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Ecuador

The third category seems to contradict with the verses you posted earlier.... not people dying, that always happens of course. The conflict is with God sending trials that kill people, and God also allegedly giving respite to the evil-doers until the Day of Judgement.
Either He is still punishing communities of Zalimoon in this life, or He is laying off punishment until the Day of Judgement.

Nice talking with you, thanks for this good discussion, looking forward to hearing back. Take care and God bless you.

I don't know why this seems as a good progressive discussion to you when you're asking the same questions over and over again!

I have said earlier that Earthquakes, Tsunamis are Naturally occuring phenomena and that their occurence does not necessarily donate to a punishment... looks like that's what we're repeating to say again in this progressive discussion!

Think that; mosquitoe bites claim more lives than earthquakes and Tsunamis combined: is mosquitoe bite a punishment from God? The number of death by accidents is much more than lives claimed in an earthquake: is road accident and plain crashes a punishment from God? Draught and famine, heart diseases,wars all these claim more lives than earthquakes... if a punishment from God for you is a factor which claims many lives then every death is a punishment according to that definition...

What does not make sense to you when I say every one was decreed to die in the manner,place and the cause by which he'll die?... And that if an earthquake or a disaster like it occurs we may regard it as a trial/test for the living_ Its occurence and the fear it leaves in us is enough for any sane person to conclude that we're indeed powerless,helpless and weak even though people may claim to be at the peak of their progress... in other words the dead by it were decreed to die and the living and the surviving to take lessons from it as a test.

But you say no, and suggest that since it involved the death of so many people then it could only have been an unjust punishment: So who told you/ did you receive revelation that God destroyed InterAndean valley,Ecuador in 1797 because they did not accept Islam? What assures you that was a punishment? Because many people died? Then how many died and cities destroyed in Syria in the past 5 years, are they too being punished for not accepting Islam? Or you simply misunderstand natural disasters?... when Natural disasters destroyed the previous people like Qawm Nuuh then it was ordered by Allah and used by Him as a means of punishment only at that time to destroy only the evildoers and disbelievers(just as birds were used to destroy Abraha and his army). From which Islamic source did you then read that earthquake and floods are the means of Allah to punish people on earth?

*reminder* frequent earthquakes,storms,collapsing and sinking of section of crustal rocks are among many signs for the Hour as indicated by the hadiths of the Prophet(p.b.u.h).

Otherwise, I'd give way to other respected members to have their say and reply to your questions in more satisfactory manner as I cannot see myself understanding your questions and replying to them differently than I already did and therefore I tend to avoid repeating myself.

 

[Peter_502]

I don't know why this seems as a good progressive discussion to you when you're asking the same questions over and over again!

I have said earlier that Earthquakes, Tsunamis are Naturally occuring phenomena and that their occurence does not necessarily donate to a punishment... looks like that's what we're repeating to say again in this progressive discussion!

Think that; mosquitoe bites claim more lives than earthquakes and Tsunamis combined: is mosquitoe bite a punishment from God? The number of death by accidents is much more than lives claimed in an earthquake: is road accident and plain crashes a punishment from God? Draught and famine, heart diseases,wars all these claim more lives than earthquakes... if a punishment from God for you is a factor which claims many lives then every death is a punishment according to that definition...

What does not make sense to you when I say every one was decreed to die in the manner,place and the cause by which he'll die?... And that if an earthquake or a disaster like it occurs we may regard it as a trial/test for the living_ Its occurence and the fear it leaves in us is enough for any sane person to conclude that we're indeed powerless,helpless and weak even though people may claim to be at the peak of their progress... in other words the dead by it were decreed to die and the living and the surviving to take lessons from it as a test.

But you say no, and suggest that since it involved the death of so many people then it could only have been an unjust punishment: So who told you/ did you receive revelation that God destroyed InterAndean valley,Ecuador in 1797 because they did not accept Islam? What assures you that was a punishment? Because many people died? Then how many died and cities destroyed in Syria in the past 5 years, are they too being punished for not accepting Islam? Or you simply misunderstand natural disasters?... when Natural disasters destroyed the previous people like Qawm Nuuh then it was ordered by Allah and used by Him as a means of punishment only at that time to destroy only the evildoers and disbelievers(just as birds were used to destroy Abraha and his army). From which Islamic source did you then read that earthquake and floods are the means of Allah to punish people on earth?

*reminder* frequent earthquakes,storms,collapsing and sinking of section of crustal rocks are among many signs for the Hour as indicated by the hadiths of the Prophet(p.b.u.h).

Otherwise, I'd give way to other respected members to have their say and reply to your questions in more satisfactory manner as I cannot see myself understanding your questions and replying to them differently than I already did and therefore I tend to avoid repeating myself.

Salaam alaikum, cabdixakim.
I think you are right. Not every natural disaster is a punishment from God, the verses I listed were only pertaining to the past and it would make sense that God was saying He won't destroy any locality as a punishment, not any locality in general. He will destroy or to be more accurate, in the past has destroyed some towns as retribution. When He does so now, He doesn't do it to punish but just because it is His will how people die and when.
Thanks for making that clear, I appreciate it. Take care.