Marriage without a wali for the girl || Hanafi fiqh

Discussion in 'TurnToIslam Lounge !' started by slaveofAllah88, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. slaveofAllah88
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    slaveofAllah88 Slave of Allah (swt)

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    aslam o alaikum wr wb,

    what you said is true exactly

    my reasons and wat i was trying to say is, i know what abu hanafi (rah) said and i agree with him, but alot of people as u might know in pak run away from home, go against their parents wishes/will (due to personal not religious reasons) etc etc . Thats why i posted this words of the hanafi scholars to clear this issue up that its not as black and white like that, you have to try your best to make your parents agree, *runing away, displeasing them etc* is not the way, and if the parents are not agreeing based on like cast system, race, non islamic reasons basically, then hanafi allow it. This is what i studied from a hanafi student, if you want please confirm it with haris hammam as well.

    InshAllah, hope it make sense the bottom line is the madhab interpretation are not to be misused, if you are going to follow it do it properly.

    And Allah (swt) knows best
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  2. Seeking Allah's Mercy
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    Wasalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

    The point you are trying to make may be wrong too, but then again, that's just me thinking. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating girls flying off with men.

    Anyway, the thread's title should have been a different one. Something like "Misuse of the hanafi view of marriage" or something similar.

    I can try, with 95% probability that I won't get what I want. Problem with these students of knowledge is, they are "always" busy. If you don't have an account at multaqa. Maybe you should ask brother Itqan Ullah (He has one) if he has time to make a thread on it there. It'd be a very interesting read. May be you should type the thread, he does the copy paste. Not really a practical idea, but an idea nonetheless.
  3. slaveofAllah88
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    slaveofAllah88 Slave of Allah (swt)

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    aslam o alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

    Offcourse, its not that i have to be correct wallahu alam, like u said its very hard to actually get a hold of brother Haris hammam, i mostly follow him on facebook not multaqa, so i wont be able to message him there its very hard to get a hold of him.
    Alhumdulilah i know a very good brother who is studying hanafi fiqh, we have became good friends so Alhumdulilah he helps me out and its a blessing cause he opens his books and can give me exact quotes, and i follow his discussion between position of different madhab on fiqh issues which really benefit me as a layman. Overall what you said is true, Allah (swt) knows best im taking his word i dont have the books on me and not sure they all are available in english either.

    i agree with the part below and the book with its page number is there, also was given this as a reference : "(Radd al-Muhtar ala ‘l-Durr al-Mukhtar 3/56-57 & I’la al-Sunan 11/69")
    and his words on the issue : "I have to say its all about the mentality of the ppl some ppl just follow there desires quoting hanafi rulings regarding this issue but don't go Into the details of the ruling"

    Allah (swt) knows best, i feel satisfied with the response and reference, and offcourse everyone should verify to make sure we are just layman students, should end my part of discussion here if you find more about it do post inshAllah

    and Title, well SubhanAllah i guess whats done is done inshAllah try to be more concise in the future

    Wasalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,
  4. Seeking Allah's Mercy
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    He answers at multaqa. I was talking more about having everyone giving some input on the issue in there. Anyway, it's your call.

    Anyway, that quote you shared makes perfect sense. It's place right where it's supposed to be, Of course parents come first, it's not even a question. My point of contention here is: if those who actually undertake such actions are under any blame in Shari' legislations? Thus me saying maybe you are wrong here. I mean court marriages do take place a lot in Pak. I think it comes down to the person himself, his imaan taqwa and morals in this case. The likes of people you are talking about, wouldn't really care if or if not, the sharia allow them to marry this way.
  5. slaveofAllah88
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    aslam o alaikum wa rahamatuALlahi wa barakatuhu,

    im not registered there i just follow sometimes if you are able to start a thread there it would be very beneficial esp what you mentioned (please post link here too), one of the brother above did post a situation where girl married without wali permission but she was within the ruqsa.

    Its unfortunate, things like that take place alot and its allowed even thou its a muslim country; all things aside, May Allah (swt) give them hidayah, our job is the provide the mean and inshAllah they can seek knowledge, maybe not now but Allah (swt) knows best they might think about it later and use it but using the madhab as a excuse for their actions is what i want to stand against.
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    Wa alaykum asalam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

    I'm sorry, I actually changed the email ID to some random to keep from posting there (I'm having a train of questions these days, I don't want my exam messed up because of them). Which means I'm only able to PM and not post until and unless I activate my account from the non existent random ID. That is why I asked you to request the Brother's for help.

    I PMed Br. Harris He says:

    Ameen to your Adiyaa.
  7. Idris16
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    http://islamqa.com/en/ref/389/wali muslimah
  8. hayat84
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    there is another point:a woman isn't obliged to revert to Islam when she marries a muslim,so does she need a wali even if she is catholic or jewish?
  9. Aapa
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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Excellent question sister. Makes you stop and really think.

    My understanding is that she is still required to have a wali from her faith. She does not have to revert thus she can not have a Muslim man be her wali.
  10. hayat84
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    hayat84 I'm not what you believe

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    alright!when I reverted to Islam it took some days before I had the sheet of the shahada islamiya.after some days I've got married,even if it was aked if I was muslimah,the important thing was if I accepted the marriage.there's to say that 3 days before marrying,I've got ill,an Imam came to me to see why I had those problems,he assured himself if I was muslimah,and indeed I was reverted officially.my faith for Allah was alive much more than getting married.our ignorance maybe was due to our unexperience and we had to hurry up because our vacancy in Morocco was going to end,so we had to make everything as soon as possible.now I'm here,nothing bad is happened if I had no wali,my family,even if is not muslim,accept my choice and respect me for what I am.everybody's happy for me.may Allah forgive me if I was unaware
  11. sister herb
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    Salam alaykum

    seems others try to make big issue and problem with your matter but I don´t see here any problem. As they say that by some madhab woman can´t be wali but both imam met you and your family accepted your marriage (including your father what seems to be important), then everything seems ok.

    Have a happy marriage to you they should say!
  12. slaveofAllah88
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    slaveofAllah88 Slave of Allah (swt)

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    aslam o aliakum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

    JazakAllah khair, May Allah (swt) bless people of knowledge and you for helping me seek it - ameen

    it really cleared things up.

    Although i am not familiar with pakistan court system, when they marry someone is there a imam or its just a legal documentation? so anyone getting married there are they married according to the shariah or not?
  13. Aapa
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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Sisters,

    If an imam is there and a woman has no wali then the imam acts in her interest.

    I posted but it got lost in cyberspace. We do not have to follow a madhab. We have to follow the sunna and Quran. There is nothing that mandates we follow one.
  14. Idris16
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    It is a big thing, it doesnt matter if her family accepts it or not. Did she have a wali or not when she was non-Muslim or Muslimah? Is this marriage accepted by Islam? I am surprised sister Hayat didnt even know about this issue, she should speak to her husband about this.
  15. John Smith
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    There is the answer,sometimes some look to make issues out of no issue.

    Sister Harb is on the money with her answer and one you cannot disagree with.
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  16. hayat84
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    hayat84 I'm not what you believe

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    my husband too doesn't know anything about the wali,that's why I'm worried.we didn't married with religious ceremony.we didn't put religion into our businesses.we only spent long time to legaliyze the documents and when we finally were officially married everything was ok.maybe there is the choice between religious marriage and laic one,even if we both are muslims.the Imam who knew me,was aware we were going to get married,and I remember that he only wished for me a good health and Imaan.I don't like to listen that I obligatory need someone else to allow me if I can do something or not.we married Rasunnati llahi wa rasulihi,and if it doesn't respect the Sunnah,may Allah punish me if I've wronged.I give much more importance to my own family's opinion,than to that of somebody else.We are really in love,Allah knows how we faced the troubles.I'm sorry if I'm taking this matter as personal one,but it touches me,above all if I wasn't aware of what the wali was and because maybe it is thought that now my marriage is not valid because of this loss.
  17. John Smith
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    Sister Hayat, you're marriage is not null & void and dont let the doomsayers tell you it is.

    Qadar Allah,very simple Sis.
  18. Seeking Allah's Mercy
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    Asalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

    I assure you none here is qualified to answer this Question for you. May be you should search IslamQA or better still ask Shaykh Assim here : http://www.assimalhakeem.net/contact

    Be on the safe side my sister. Ask the people of knowledge*Smile*.

    May Allah bless you.

    If I wasn't so sure you were serious I would have joined you in on the joke. Of course women CAN'T be wali!
    As is clear from the fatwa of IslamQ&A, her father is not important in this at all, the Imaam is. And yes, there of course, is no problem. As you can see our sister post it in clear words here:

    Simple.

    Wa iyyak. BaraakAllaahu feek.

    It is a muslim country with Islamic guidelines in the constitution no matter how flimsy. An Imaam should be there. Common people do know nikkah is essential.

    Bottom line: I'm afraid I'm not much help. I don't know. I'm sorry.
  19. ShahnazZ
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    Is it obligatory to follow a particular madhhab?

    Praise be to Allaah.

    It is not obligatory for a Muslim to follow any particular madhhab among these four. People vary in their level of understanding and ability to derive rulings from the evidence. There are some for whom it is permissible to follow (taqleed), and indeed it may be obligatory in their case. There are others who can only follow the shar’i evidence. In Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah this question was answered in a detailed manner, which is worth quoting here in full.

    The Committee replied:

    Praise be to Allaah, and blessings and peace be upon His Messenger and his family and companions.

    Firstly: the four madhhabs are named after the four imams – Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Maalik, Imam al-Shaafa’i and Imam Ahmad.

    Secondly: These imams learned fiqh (jurisprudence) from the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and they are mujtahideen in this regard. The mujtahid either gets it right, in which case he will have two rewards, the reward for his ijtihaad and the reward for getting it right, or he will get it wrong, in which case he will be rewarded for his ijtihaad and will be forgiven for his mistake.

    Thirdly: the one who is able to derive rulings from the Qur’aan and Sunnah should take from them like those who came before him; it is not right for him to follow blindly (taqleed) when he is believes that the truth lies elsewhere. Rather he should follow that which he believes is the truth. It is permissible for him to follow in matters in which he is unable to come to a conclusion based on the Qur’aan and Sunnah and he needs guidelines concerning a particular issue.

    Fourthly: Whoever does not have the ability to derive rulings himself is permitted to follow one whom he feels comfortable following. If he is not comfortable following him then he should ask until he finds someone with whom he is comfortable.

    Fifthly: From the above it is clear that we should not follow their opinions in all situations and at all times, because they may make mistakes, but we may follow their views that are sound and are based on the evidence.

    Fataawa al-Lajnah, 5/28

    It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah, no. 3323:

    Whoever is qualified to derive rulings from the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and has strong knowledge in that regard, even if that is with the help of the legacy of fiqh that we have inherited from earlier scholars of Islam, has the right to do that, so he can act upon it himself and explain it in disputes and issue fatwas to those who consult him. Whoever is not qualified to do that has to ask trustworthy people who so that he may learn the rulings from their books and act upon that, without limiting his asking or his reading to one of the scholars of the four madhhabs. Rather people refer to the four imams because they are so well known and their books are well written and widely available.

    Whoever says that it is obligatory for the learned people to follow the scholars blindly in all cases is making a mistake and being inflexible, and is thinking that these learned people are inadequate, and he is restricting something that is broad in scope.

    Whoever says that we should limit following to the four madhhabs is also mistaken, because he is restricting something that is broad in scope with no evidence for doing so. With regard to the common (i.e., uneducated) man there is no difference between the four imams and others such as al-Layth ibn Sa’d, al-Awzaa’i and other fuqaha’.

    Fataawa al-Lajnah, 5/41

    It says in Fatwa no. 1591:

    None of them called people to follow his madhhab, or was partisan in following it, or obliged anyone else to act in accordance with it or with a specific madhhab. Rather they used to call people to follow the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and they would comment on the texts of Islam, and explain its basic principles and discuss minor issues according to general guidelines, and issue fatwas concerning what people asked about, without obliging any of their students or anyone else to follow their views. Rather they criticized those who did that and said that their opinions should be cast aside if they went against a saheeh hadeeth. One of them said: “If the hadeeth is saheeh then that is my madhhab.” May Allaah have mercy on them all.

    It is not obligatory for anyone to follow a particular madhhab, rather we should strive to learn the truth if possible, or to seek the help of Allaah in doing so, then to rely on the legacy that the earlier Muslim scholars left behind for those who came after them, thus making it easier for them to understand and apply the texts. Whoever cannot derive rulings from the texts etc for some reason that prevents him from doing so should ask trustworthy scholars for whatever rulings of sharee’ah he needs, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “So ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures — the Tawraat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know”

    [al-Anbiya’ 21:7]

    So he has to strive to ask one whom he trusts among those who are well known for their knowledge, virtue, piety and righteousness.

    Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 5/56

    The madhhab of Abu Haneefah (may Allaah have mercy on him) is the most widespread madhhab among the Muslims, and perhaps one of the reasons for that is that the Ottoman caliphs followed this madhhab and they ruled the Muslim lands for more than six centuries. That does not mean that the madhhab of Abu Haneefah is the most sound madhhab or that every ijtihaad in it is correct, rather like other madhhabs it contains some things that are correct and some that are incorrect. What the believer must do is to follow the truth and what is correct, regardless of who says it.

    And Allaah knows best.


    http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/21420/Following a madhab
  20. sister herb
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    Dear Seeking Allah's Mercy

    To me imams or so called imams of IslamQ&A are just as joke!

    If I want to know something serious by Islam, I contanct to real imam, not read those copy&paste matters from forums.

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