Serious Moral noble perfect world order:

[a_stranger]

We people need a world order that have moral noble spiritual values to satisfy our needs as humans.


O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. 13

Surat Al Hugurat

Translation of the meanings of Quran

 

[Cariad]

Are you saying religion Islam is a perfect world order? Would we not see some sign of this in 1400 years?

No religion can offer a perfect world order, because religion is followed by mankind who are imperfect. That's why God never sent religion.

 

[sister herb]

No religion can offer a perfect world order, because religion is followed by mankind who are imperfect. That's why God never sent religion.

Naturally we as muslims see this by the different perspective: yes, religion (sent by the God) is perfect but followers of the religion aren´t. We have clear orders how to behave and live and follow religion but as imperfect humans we don´t every times follow the rules.



As illogical as we are, we then, when things go wrong, start to blame that rules weren´t right - although we didn´t even followed them at all.

 

[tomislav-dra-382i-263]

Are you saying religion Islam is a perfect world order? Would we not see some sign of this in 1400 years?

No religion can offer a perfect world order, because religion is followed by mankind who are imperfect. That's why God never sent religion.

Are you saying religion Islam is a perfect world order? Would we not see some sign of this in 1400 years?

No religion can offer a perfect world order, because religion is followed by mankind who are imperfect. That's why God never sent religion.

Are you saying religion Islam is a perfect world order? Would we not see some sign of this in 1400 years?

No religion can offer a perfect world order, because religion is followed by mankind who are imperfect. That's why God never sent religion.

The events are happening just in the order. The order of events are in the haddith.
Qur'an: What Allah has ordered will appear even if it is disliked by mushrekeen. The haddith and Al Qur'an live in symbiosis. A live religion.

What is your definition of religion and how do you call it?

 

[Cariad]

Naturally we as muslims see this by the different perspective: yes, religion (sent by the God) is perfect but followers of the religion aren´t. We have clear orders how to behave and live and follow religion but as imperfect humans we don´t every times follow the rules.



As illogical as we are, we then, when things go wrong, start to blame that rules weren´t right - although we didn´t even followed them at all.

Yes, I see you follow the religion Islam. The Bible also has rules or Commandments for mankind from God to guide us. But Yeshua never brought religion or ever taught we must follow religion to be saved. To be saved we must have faith and reliance upon God. Yeshua taught about how we could achieve relationship with God, to restore what was meant to be but was lost to us. He taught that the Law or our following of the law has no power to save us.

 

[Cariad]

The events are happening just in the order. The order of events are in the haddith.
Qur'an: What Allah has ordered will appear even if it is disliked by mushrekeen. The haddith and Al Qur'an live in symbiosis. A live religion.

What is your definition of religion and how do you call it?

For me religion is an invention of mankind because it fills a need we have of belonging. It can be divisive and so also why I do not see it is from Gods will, why would God who loves His creation of mankind seek to divide us into religious groups. God wants us ALL to love and worship only Him, because He is our Father and creator of all we are and everything we can ever be.

Yeshua never said to His followers "Start a religion in my name and call it christianity" the followers of Yeshua were not even called christians for many many years, and then it was applied to them as a derogatory term, as to insult and abuse. Yeshua WAS the Gospel. The Way.. We follow Him because He showed us the way to God. This is for me of course I do not expect you as muslim to understand or agree.

 

[Cariad]

Naturally we as muslims see this by the different perspective: yes, religion (sent by the God) is perfect but followers of the religion aren´t. We have clear orders how to behave and live and follow religion but as imperfect humans we don´t every times follow the rules.



As illogical as we are, we then, when things go wrong, start to blame that rules weren´t right - although we didn´t even followed them at all.

In bold, is why Yeshua never gave us religion. God know we are imperfect and can never follow rules in perfection. As God is perfect then if we are to be saved by following laws then we would have to follow the law perfectly ALL the time. Gods laws important for living in society the Law of Moses from God is the core of all mankind's moral justice everywhere in the world.

We can try to obey the laws ALL the time but it will never be possible because we are sinners.

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

The absence of morality is an absence of order. Where moral directives are implemented through divine decree there is a purpose, a foundation and a stable structure in place. Morality without God is morality without function and responsibility. It is based on sentiment and restricted to personal or narrow definitions and interpretations of ethics alone.

In societies today, there is a still a struggle to define the boundary of legal moralism (where the law legislates, implements and enforces morality as a state) and where the law recognises immorality, but chooses to protect [by ignoring] the one who commits it.

 

[a_stranger]

Peace (Salam ) for all:
Islam sets a high slandered of morality by rearrange what is in hearts of people directing them to the one who created with sincerity . The following verse explains how prophet Ibrahim alaihi alsalam started :

79. Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth Hanifa(Islamic Monotheism, i.e. worshipping none but Allah Alone) and I am not of Al-Mushrikun ".

Translation of the meaning of Quran Surat AlAnaam.

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

Peace (Salam ) for all:
Islam sets a high slandered of morality by rearrange what is in hearts of people directing them to the one who created with sincerity . The following verse explains how prophet Ibrahim alaihi alsalam started :

79. Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth Hanifa(Islamic Monotheism, i.e. worshipping none but Allah Alone) and I am not of Al-Mushrikun ".

Translation of the meaning of Quran Surat AlAnaam.

Just as there is a higher standard of morality, there is a higher purpose in life and that is, that if we obey and worship Allah as our first and foremost concern, He will overlook our faults, our minor sins and our shortcomings and accept us as believers. If we achieve this highly attainable goal and rank, then we are winners and not outright sinners. We accept we sin, but something greater is that we recognise we have the inner strength to still accomplish higher goals and rewards.

 

[Cariad]

Just as there is a higher standard of morality, there is a higher purpose in life and that is, that if we obey and worship Allah as our first and foremost concern, He will overlook our faults, our minor sins and our shortcomings and accept us as believers. If we achieve this highly attainable goal and rank, then we are winners and not outright sinners. We accept we sin, but something greater is that we recognise we have the inner strength to still accomplish higher goals and rewards.

Brother Abu Juwairiya how is it possible that God could overlook sins? Minor or not a sin is a sin. That idea worries me a bit.

 

[a_stranger]

Peace sister Cariad:

I shall state translation of verses from Quran , I hope it makes the argument of brother Abu Juwairiya more clear :

31. And to Allah( God) belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, that He may requite those who do evil with that which they have done (i.e. punish them in Hell), and reward those who do good, with what is best (i.e. Paradise).

32. Those who avoid great sins (see the Qur'an, Verses: 6:152,153) and Al-Fawahish (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) except the small faults, verily, your Lord is of vast forgiveness. He knows you well when He created you from the earth (Adam), and when you were fetuses in your mothers' wombs. So ascribe not purity to yourselves. He knows best him who fears Allah and keep his duty to Him [i.e. those who are Al-Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2)].
Surat AlNagim

 

[Cariad]

Thank you a_stranger for translating of the verses.

I understand to God belongs everything, I also understand God is Omniscient, then when it says God MAY send to Hell those who do evil and reward those who do good. Am I correct in seeing there is no certainty here? If the evil person repents do they gain paradise? Or is it meaning those who do good are rewarded and those who do evil are punished accordingly? Is there hope for the evil person who repents?

Second verse, God knows us well, that's a surety, then God already knows the person who will sin and how. Does it mean God will forgive small sins but not great sins? Again where is the hope for the repentant sinner?

Sorry for the questions, but for me the whole thing about sin is very complicated in Islam. In Christianity there is just sin, not big or small. The prophets say God abhors all sin but loves the sinner. So we cannot know what God thinks is big or small sin, all we can know is we only rely on Gods provision because as sinners we can do nothing to save ourselves from eternal damnation. We just have faith in Gods love, mercy and justice.

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

Thank you a_stranger for translating of the verses.

I understand to God belongs everything, I also understand God is Omniscient, then when it says God MAY send to Hell those who do evil and reward those who do good. Am I correct in seeing there is no certainty here? If the evil person repents do they gain paradise? Or is it meaning those who do good are rewarded and those who do evil are punished accordingly? Is there hope for the evil person who repents?

Second verse, God knows us well, that's a surety, then God already knows the person who will sin and how. Does it mean God will forgive small sins but not great sins? Again where is the hope for the repentant sinner?

Sorry for the questions, but for me the whole thing about sin is very complicated in Islam. In Christianity there is just sin, not big or small. The prophets say God abhors all sin but loves the sinner. So we cannot know what God thinks is big or small sin, all we can know is we only rely on Gods provision because as sinners we can do nothing to save ourselves from eternal damnation. We just have faith in Gods love, mercy and justice.

Peace be with you Sister Cariad. I have no issue with any questions you have. Please do not feel I will be offended or tired of questions in general. Perhaps I should have worded my original post differently however. In Islam there are two types of sins. Sins against creation [e.g. the human race] and sins against the Creator. Those sins against the Creator, He has said can be forgiven if the one who repents is sincere and asks for forgiveness. Those are largely restricted to Minor Sins. Major sins are another matter and require something more. It is those types of minor sins I was referring to. Sins against others, namely human beings, belong to a different category.

 

[Cariad]

I see, thank you for taking time explaining. What are sins against the Creator (God) and how can they be considered minor? Surely a tiny sin against God is far worse than any sin we commit towards each other. Who is deciding what constitutes a major sin? Like do you have something like the Ten Commandments God gave to Moses?

I see there is only one sin that mankind commits against God and it is the exact same sin that Adam and Eve first commited, that caused them to be banished from the Garden and Gods Presence. The one we repeat over and over... That is disobedience against God. If you think about it sins come down to that really. So it's very simple to understand that but not so easy for me to see all different types of sin. I think Catholics have different types of sins and a penance is paid according to the severity of the sin. But for me that is not logical because I do not see how a man (Priest) applying a penance to the sinner in this world can have any effect on that sinner in the next.

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

I see, thank you for taking time explaining. What are sins against the Creator (God) and how can they be considered minor? Surely a tiny sin against God is far worse than any sin we commit towards each other. Who is deciding what constitutes a major sin? Like do you have something like the Ten Commandments God gave to Moses?

I see there is only one sin that mankind commits against God and it is the exact same sin that Adam and Eve first commited, that caused them to be banished from the Garden and Gods Presence. The one we repeat over and over... That is disobedience against God. If you think about it sins come down to that really. So it's very simple to understand that but not so easy for me to see all different types of sin. I think Catholics have different types of sins and a penance is paid according to the severity of the sin. But for me that is not logical because I do not see how a man (Priest) applying a penance to the sinner in this world can have any effect on that sinner in the next.

I guess its about perception. Just as you see nothing wrong with alcohol in small portions or in general , we accept minor sins against the Creator as being excusable if He says He is willing to forgive providing we will not to do them again and have sincerity.

 

[Cariad]

What is an example of a minor sin against God? Because I struggle to see how sin against God can be a minor thing if God is most Holy... And God is the most Holy. God in the Bible says He abhors all sin, but still loves the sinner. Adam and Eve were cast out because Gods Holiness cannot be in the presence of sin. So although you may see in regards to alcohol for example, which God never forbid in the Bible btw. That we have a different softer view of sin, I think it is the opposite and sin as understood in christianity is a far more serious affair. In as much it clearly separates us from God, which for a believer is the worst thing ever in this world and most definitely in the next.

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

Allow me to post some examples of this from the Qur'an-

Al-Nisa' Chapter 4 : Verse 49

Surely, Allah will not forgive that any partner be associated with Him; but He will forgive whatever is short of that to whomsoever He pleases. And whoso associates partners with Allah has indeed devised a very great sin. [4:49]

Al-e-`Imran Chapter 3 : Verse 32

Say, ‘If you love Allah, follow me: then will Allah love you and forgive you your faults. And Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.’

Al-Ahzab Chapter 33 : Verse 72

He will bless your works for you and forgive you your sins. And whoso obeys Allah and His Messenger, shall surely attain a mighty success.

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

You are correct in one sense. Everything against God should be seen as serious, but what Allah says in reference to Himself is about His Perceptions as to what He says re minor compared to what He sees as serious.

The most major sin which can never be forgiven is to associate others with Him, partners, both in worship or in any other way. That means idolatry, minor gods, a divine family, people as intercessors with divine powers either as great as God, equal to Him, a little or a lot less but still above the rest of creation as divine beings. That is unforgivable. Short of that, almost of everything else can be minor in comparison depending on context, willingness to reform etc.

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

In Islam, God loves the sinner who repents, but not the sinner who does not. He abhors sin, but without sin, there is no repentance. It is a system created by Him for more than one purpose and by Him who knows more than us and for reasons known only to Himself fully. We know some things, He knows everything. What we do know is what He has revealed to us through His Prophets and through Divine Revelation.