Questions to Ex Christians/ Christians

apocalypse77

Junior Member
im a lil bit slow when it comes to the bible and this is a stupid question but i still wana ask!!..i know the bible is divided into many books(if im not wrong)..does that mean people have to buy the whole 66 books or do they actually have everything compiled into one book like the king james bible/revised standard version etc?

and is the chritian bible inside also include the old testament or isit seperated from the christian bible?(which means one has to buy the hebrew bible seperately?)

i was also wondering..what is the position of jeremiah and joshua in islam??did islam eliminated them because theyre not exactly important prophets or were they not prophets in the first place?

thanks for answering..geez i was thinking mebe we shld have a thread stick up to ask ex jews and ex christians abt their religion
 

umm hussain

Junior Member
Asalam alaikum

The bible has 66 books, 39 in the old testament and 27 in the new testament and the Catholic bible has 72 books, 45 in old testament and 27 in new testament. You do not go out and buy all books, they are all in one. The word bible comes from a Greek word which means {the} books so it can mean a collection of books so one does not go and buy a separate Hebrew one.

As for Jeremiah and Joshua they existed as far as I know, I would not say Islam eliminated them, because if a Prophet or Messenger existed how then can they be eliminated? They were probably just unmentioned like many other Prophets/Messengers because there were over 100 000 of them it just depends I guess on the significance of them because even on Judgement day some Prophets/Messengers will have 1 or 2 followers.

If I am not mistaken I think only 25 Prophets were mentioned by name in the Quran that is a very small fraction in comparison to the 100 000+ who were actually sent down.

Allah knows best
 

Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
dear sister umhussain, forgive me for correcting your mistake about the total number of prophets. they were actually 100,000 + prophets. you need to add two more zeros to the left :)

wassalam
 

virtualeye

Tamed Brother
dear sister umhussain, forgive me for correcting your mistake about the total number of prophets. they were actually 100,000 + prophets. you need to add two more zeros to the left :)

wassalam


Dear brother,

This time your mistake. Adding two zeros to the "left" will make it 00100+. Which is useless, hehe.

So ask her to add two zeros at the right side, 1000 00 =~ 100,000+
 

umm hussain

Junior Member
dear sister umhussain, forgive me for correcting your mistake about the total number of prophets. they were actually 100,000 + prophets. you need to add two more zeros to the left :)

wassalam

Noted, Jazakhallahu khair for the correction
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
If you buy any Bible, it will come with all the books in it - Old Testament and New Testament.

The only time it won't be complete is if you get ahold of a miniature "Bible" from The Gideons International. Sometimes these only contain Proverbs and Pslams, but if thats the case it'll say so right on the cover. You'll be able to tell the difference though since its thin and fits in the palm of your hand.

If the first page says Genesis and the last says Revelations, you're good to go.

I recommend the NIV for easier reading. If you're short on time and want to know the basis for Christian faith, just read the New Testament. The Old Testament is used for historical purposes. The life and death of Jesus and the basis for Christianity is all in the New Testament. The Old Testament contains mosaic laws which are negated by statements supposedly made by Jesus in the New Testament.
 

apocalypse77

Junior Member
i was kind alike confuse cos all of the smaller books of the smaller bibles compiled have so many chapters that i thought its impossible for all of the books to be into one book..

but even if all the smaller books are in one big bible, does that still mean they have all the entire chapters condensed and only have the most important parts of the chapters or all of em? o_o
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
Even if that were true, the Christian belief is still that the mosaic law is not applicable.

But...Some interpretations of that verse by scholars:

"Christ did not come to bring any new way of righteousness and salvation into the world, but indeed to fulfil that which was shadowed by the figures of the Law, by delivering men through grace from the curse of the Law: and moreover to teach the true use of obedience which the Law appointed, and to engrave in our hearts the power for obedience.

That the prophecies may be accomplished."

If you read on to Matthew 5:18, it says "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished"

That, in combination with other New Testament verses, say that he was to fulfill the prophecy, thus ending mosaic law. To be honest, I can't remember the exact verses. Shortly after converting, the pastor at my parents church gave a sermon on Matthew 5:17 and it made a lot of sense. Not in the sense that I believe that Jesus was the Son of God and its true, but in the sense that within the Bible and within that belief system, the Bible is trying to say that Jesus fulfills the prophecy in the Old Testament, therefore ending the mosaic law. He states that he is given a new covenant that shall override the old one. It also had something to do with the original Greek and Hebrew of it, but, like I said, it was awhile ago and I can't remember what it was.

I think this verse is taken out of context to be used against Christians, just like the Qur'an is taken out of context to be used against Muslims. Christianity is false, but you really can't use that verse to successfully prove or argue that its false.
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
i was kind alike confuse cos all of the smaller books of the smaller bibles compiled have so many chapters that i thought its impossible for all of the books to be into one book..

but even if all the smaller books are in one big bible, does that still mean they have all the entire chapters condensed and only have the most important parts of the chapters or all of em? o_o

Nope. What you would find in a copy of the Bible is absolutely everything that Christians consider to be the word of God. Nothing is condensed. There are other books that weren't chosen for the canon, but that's a different story and a whole lot of other books...

Basically, if you walk into a book store, and pick up a Bible off the shelf, you're good to go.

If you like pretty colors I recommend The Rainbow Study Bible lol
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
The heavens and the earth did not disappear by the coming or departure of Jesus nor have they disappeared since! So, the only obvious interpretation of the above is that Jesus was talking about the day of judgment and in effect saying that the Mosaic law will never disappear. How did that escape your pastor?

I think another probable interpretation could be that its in two parts:
1) "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear"
Meaning, he will tell the truth for all eternity since heaven will never disappear, or, if heaven is to mean sky then until the final judgment when this world is no more.

2) "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished"
Meaning, the mosaic law is not to be disregarded or changed until everything is accomplished and, as the Christians scholars have stated, this verse is to mean that the "everything is accomplished" part refers to him fulfilling the prophecy and therefore meaning that the mosaic law can "disappear".

And, like I said, there are other supporting verses and some subtleties in the Greek and Hebrew that are missed by the English translation. I could ask him sometime if you really wanted to know.

And to make things totally clear: Please don't think I'm trying to say the Bible is true or anything like that, I'm just saying if you want to effectively argue and convince a Christian that there are flaws in it, this verse really isn't the best to use.
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
If you ever argue with a Christian who knows their Bible well, that's probably how they'll see it. And you'll have to deal with the supporting verses. It was a really interesting explanation the pastor gave and it really was one of those things where, if you look at it objectively, it was very easy to see it both ways: that Jesus says he overrides mosaic law vs. he says he doesn't.

Unfortunately, the grammar and phrasing in the Bible isn't as clear and direct and accessible as it is in the Qur'an, which is why its easy to get different interpretations. And the translations definitely aren't as smooth. Alhamdulillah we have the original Arabic when it comes to the Qur'an and don't have to deal from going through multiple languages to get to English (or French or Russian or Japanese, etc.).
 

Mohsin

abdu'Allah
Assalamu-alaikum

:salam2:

I think the covenant is surely renewed but that didn't end the Mosaic Law, for e.g.

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Matthew 23

 

Jihan

Junior Member
side thought: did you guys know that some books were just intentionally dropped from the bible. they were called the Apocrypha. strange huh how they would just drop books out of the collection. why you may ask.. the world may never know... or do they already?

here's a word to add to your vocabulary (if not already):


a·poc·ry·phal /əˈpɒkrəfəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-pok-ruh-fuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. of doubtful authorship or authenticity.
2. Ecclesiastical. a. (initial capital letter) of or pertaining to the Apocrypha.
b. of doubtful sanction; uncanonical.

3. false; spurious: He told an apocryphal story about the sword, but the truth was later revealed.
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
side thought: did you guys know that some books were just intentionally dropped from the bible. they were called the Apocrypha. strange huh how they would just drop books out of the collection. why you may ask.. the world may never know... or do they already?

here's a word to add to your vocabulary (if not already):


a·poc·ry·phal /əˈpɒkrəfəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-pok-ruh-fuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. of doubtful authorship or authenticity.
2. Ecclesiastical. a. (initial capital letter) of or pertaining to the Apocrypha.
b. of doubtful sanction; uncanonical.

3. false; spurious: He told an apocryphal story about the sword, but the truth was later revealed.

A lot of it would be blasphemous even to Muslims. One of the books, for example, suggests that Jesus would have been involved in a sort of assisted suicide plot by plotting with Judas and knowing full well it would have lead to his suicide. This would mean that Jesus had damned Judas to hell on purpose. I think we can agree that no Jesus, whether in Christianity or in Islam, would have done such a thing. In another non-canonical book, the female is given a higher sense of divinity and female spirituality is glorified and put up above all, giving woman a more impowering spiritual and religious role as it suggests we aren't dealing with a genderless God, but rather a definitely female Goddess.

Just because they were left off doesn't mean they were hiding things in all the cases. In some cases, maybe certain things, but certainly not everything.

I think you can loosely compare the selection process to how we classify hadith in Islam. There are certain criteria that must be met to be a strong, accurate hadith, and the less criteria the hadith satisfies, the lower "rank" its given. This is like how they chose the books of the Bible, one of the criteria being a time period. None of the books in the Bible were written during the life of Jesus (pbuh), but the people on the Nicean council threw out books that they thought were were written outside of the probable and "realistic" time period. So, just because its excluded, doesn't mean it's right or that it's being hidden. Just because hadith are considered weak, doesn't mean Muslims are trying to hide something, right? But its true that the Christian scripture is a mess - the Protestants use less books than the Catholics, and in Ethiopia, the Christians use a book that no one else does.
 

Jihan

Junior Member
Just because they were left off doesn't mean they were hiding things in all the cases. In some cases, maybe certain things, but certainly not everything.

I think you can loosely compare the selection process to how we classify hadith in Islam. There are certain criteria that must be met to be a strong, accurate hadith, and the less criteria the hadith satisfies, the lower "rank" its given. This is like how they chose the books of the Bible, one of the criteria being a time period. None of the books in the Bible were written during the life of Jesus (pbuh), but the people on the Nicean council threw out books that they thought were were written outside of the probable and "realistic" time period. So, just because its excluded, doesn't mean it's right or that it's being hidden. Just because hadith are considered weak, doesn't mean Muslims are trying to hide something, right? .


no its not like the processing of hadith^^like ayman1 said. they did not sit down to see each narration and its lineage of narrators and their credibility. but instead theses books were books that were part of the bible once and then they were excluded aftere words all together. since you were comparing this to the ahadith, I will continue with the analogy: excluding the Apocrypha would have been like excluding all of sahih Muslim volumes. <<well that is the way I see it.

But I agree wth kayleigh on some points and I appreciated your reponse; it had liable perspectives I had not realized.

for those who want to know a little bit more:
The title Apocrypha comes from a Greek word meaning concealed or hidden away. It was first applied by Jerome (c340-420AD) because the books concerned were not included in the original Hebrew canon of Scripture. Following Jerome, the Protestant Reformers took the view that they were of lesser value than those generally accepted as Scripture. At around the same time, the Roman Catholic Church fixed the number of books in the Old Testament Apocrypha at fourteen, and it is these books we list in the table on this page. These books are also sometimes referred to as the Deuterocanonical books, meaning second (or secondary) canon. This term is applied when they are inserted in the main body of the Old Testament, as is the general practice in Roman Catholic Bibles
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
Most books of the New Testament that were included are blasphemous to Muslims, so what's your point here?

I must have mistread Jihan's post when she stated, "the world may never know...or do they already?" I thought she was saying that maybe some of the non-canonical books may have contained the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh). I was trying to make the point that its unlikely, since what is contained in them, for the most part, doesn't fit in with Islam either.

This comparison, however loose, is way out of line.

Loose? Yes. Out of line? I don't see how so. The comparison was that there were criteria for both. Hadith is more like a science, whereas the selection of the canon was more personal preference of chosen by what would benefit the church most, but there was still a list of criteria that they came up with. The point is that, as careless and self-motivated as they were, the council didn't just lay the books out, closed their eyes, and picked whatever one they landed on. There was at least some rough guideline.

excluding the Apocrypha would have been like excluding all of sahih Muslim volumes.

A lot of the books have some pretty far out there ideas. If one book is vastly different from many, it makes sense that one would come to the conclusion that that one different book is wrong. Maybe thats not the correct conclusion, but I think its easy to see how someone could come to it.

Now, that wouldn't apply to all the books, and its hard to tell what the "majority right" is on it because there's no right or infallible set of books to start with among them. But there are some cases where you could say that "one of these books just doesn't belong".

Not true and please correct me if I'm wrong. Books by Peter and James, for example, were written about the same time if not earlier than some of the books currently found in the New Testament. There hasn't been any scientific proof that the Gospel of Barnabas, for example, was not written at that early period. That of course is the Gospel that clearly states that Jesus was not God, not son of God, not crucified and foretold of the coming of Muhammad, peace be upon him. Peter's book (I don't know its official title) also stated that Jesus was not crucified. Gospel of the Children told the miracle of Jesus speaking in his cradle to defend his mother's honor.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't trust people who throw away books written by native disciples and constant companions of Jesus but include books written by a Roman, self-proclaimed convert who never saw or heard Jesus.

The general criteria was that it had to be written by an apostle, was used frequently in current church services, was consistent and had no contradictions, it had the same basic rules of faith, was written during the apostolic period, and those that were accepted by more churches were given more weight than those accepted by fewer churches.

Like I said, when it comes to hadith it is a science, but when it comes to choosing the canon it was very little science and a lot of personal preference. But still, there was some guideline, no matter how corrupt or imperfect. They had a reason to throw some books out, no matter how self-serving it was.
 
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