Shaykh Ibn Baaz (RA) on staying in a western country

Discussion in 'Islamic Discussion' started by Abu Sarah, Aug 19, 2007.

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  1. Abu Sarah
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    Abu Sarah Allahu Akbar Staff Member

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    Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in a letter addressed to a Muslim who was living in Italy:

    With regard to your letter in which you say that you are a young Muslim man living in Italy and that there are many young Muslim men there and that most of them responded to the crusaders’ wishes by keeping far away from the religion of Islam and its noble teachings, so most of them do not pray and they have bad morals and do evil deeds which they regard as permissible, and other things that you mention in your letter…

    I advise you that living in a land in which shirk and kufr, and Christianity and other religions of kufr are prevalent, is not permissible, whether you are staying there for work, business, study or some other purpose, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):


    “Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): ‘In what (condition) were you?’ They reply: ‘We were weak and oppressed on the earth.’ They (angels) say: ‘Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?’ Such men will find their abode in Hell — what an evil destination!

    98. Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way.

    99. These are they whom Allaah is likely to forgive them, and Allaah is Ever Oft-Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving”

    [al-Nisa’ 4:97-99]

    And because the Prophet :saw: (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have nothing to do with any Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.”

    This settling among the kuffaar is not done by one who knows the real meaning of Islam and faith, or who knows what Allaah has enjoined upon the Muslims, or who is pleased with Allaah as his Lord, Islam as his religion, and Muhammad :saw:(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as his Prophet and Messenger.

    Being pleased and content with that means loving Allaah, giving precedence to seeking His pleasure, being very concerned about following His religion and keeping company with His close friends, which means that one must completely disavow and keep far away from the kaafirs and their lands. rather faith as defined in the Qur'aan and Sunnah cannot coexist with these evils.

    It is narrated in a saheeh report from Jareer ibn ‘Abd-Allaah al-Bajali (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: O Messenger of Allaah, accept my oath of allegiance and stipulate conditions. The Messenger of Allaah :saw:(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Worship Allaah, establish regular prayer, pay zakaah, be sincere towards the Muslims and keep away from the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Nasaa’i.


    It is also narrated in a saheeh report that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have nothing to do with any Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” And he :saw: (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah will not accept any deed from a mushrik after he becomes Muslim until he leaves the mushrikeen.”

    The scholars have clearly stated that this is not allowed, and have warned against it, and stated that it is obligatory to migrate if one is able, except for a man who has knowledge and insight, and goes there to call people to Allaah and bring people forth from darkness into light, and explain the teachings of Islam to them.
    A verse in Soorat al-Tawbah – (interpretation of the meaning):

    “Say: If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your kindred, the wealth that you have gained, the commerce in which you fear a decline, and the dwellings in which you delight are dearer to you than Allaah and His Messenger, and striving hard and fighting in His Cause, then wait until Allaah brings about His Decision (torment). And Allaah guides not the people who are Al‑Faasiqoon (the rebellious, disobedient to Allaah)”

    [al-Tawbah 9:24] –

    indicates that seeking worldly gains is not a legitimate shar’i excuse, rather the one who does that is a faasiq (rebellious evildoer) who is subject to the warning of not being guided if these matters, or some of them, are dearer to him than Allaah and His Messenger, and jihad for the sake of Allaah. What good can there be in seeing shirk and other evils and keeping quiet about them, or even doing them, as has happened to some of those whom you mentioned who are supposedly Muslim?

    If the Muslim who settles there claims that he has some worldly aims such as study, business or work, that is even worse.

    In the Book of Allaah there is a stern warning against merely failing to migrate (hijrah), as in the verses of Soorat al-Nisa’ quoted above, where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves”. So how about the one who travels to a kaafir land and agrees to settle there? As you mentioned, the scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) forbade settling and going to a land where the Muslim will not be able to practise his religion openly. The one who are there for study, business or work come under the same ruling as the one who settles there, if they are not able to practise their religion openly and they are able to migrate.

    As for the claim of some of them that they hate them and despise them, yet they are settling in their land, that is not sufficient, rather it is haraam to travel and settle there for many reasons, including the following:

    1 – It is not possible to practise the religion openly in a way that means one has discharged one’s duties fully.

    2 – The texts and clear statements of the scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) indicate that if a person does not know his religion with its evidence and proof, and he is not able to defend it and ward off the specious arguments of the kaafirs, it is not permissible for him to travel to their land.

    3 – One of the conditions of it being permissible to travel to their land is that one should be safe from the fitnah of their power, control, specious arguments and attractions, and be safe from imitating them or being influenced by their actions.

    4 – Blocking the means that may lead to shirk is one of the most important principles of Islam. Undoubtedly what you mention in your letter about things that happen with Muslim youth who settle in these lands is the result of their staying in the land of kufr. They should be steadfast in adhering to their religion, practising it openly, following its commands, heeding its prohibitions, and calling others to it, until they are able to migrate from the land of shirk to a Muslim land.

    Allaah is the One Whom we ask to set straight all your affairs and to bless you with understanding of His religion and make you steadfast in following it. May He help us and you and all the Muslims to do all that He loves and that pleases Him, and to protect us and you and all the Muslims against things that may lead us astray and against the tricks of the shaytaan. May He help us to do all that is good, and support His religion, and make His word supreme, and reform the leaders of the Muslims and bless them with understanding of His religion, and help them to rule according to the sharee’ah of Allaah in their lands, and refer to it for judgement, and be content with it and beware of that which goes against it, for He is able to do that. Peace be upon you and the Mercy of Allaah and His blessings.

    End quote from Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz (9/403).
  2. jabba
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    jabba Salafi Dawah is the best

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  3. kayleigh
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    :salam2:

    This whole thing sounds so...wrong. Islam is for everyone - for the whole world. I just find it so wrong that one should draw dividing lines and say "this is where Muslims are, this is where the kuffar are" when it comes to the world and geographic locations. Islam isn't just for the East. Yes, there's a lot of haram things in the West, but there's also a lot of good things, and there are plenty of wrong and haram things all throughout the East. To me this sort of supports the opinion that some people have, which is that you can't be a "real Muslim" if you live in the West - only if you're from the Middle East. Or that you're somehow less of a Muslim because you don't live in a Muslim majority country. This also, in my opinion, projects the idea that you can't live or interact with Christians - that they're somehow evil, dirty people. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been taught since even before converting that Christians and Jews are our misguided brothers and sisters, and that we shouldn't be hating them.

    And, like jabba said, how would you expect to give dawah to people in the West if everyone stayed in the East? You wouldn't. So very few would convert, and those that did convert would be very alone and without guidance. I highly doubt that Allah would want his truth to be secluded to one part of the world - and if all Muslims stayed in the East, that's what would happen. Many think that Islam is only for Arabs, or others in the East - certainly not for white Westerners. And if people were to follow through on this fatwa, that's exactly what would happen - it would be for those in the East, not for anyone in the West.

    Your geographic location alone doesn't and shouldn't make you a good or bad Muslim.

    :wasalam:
  4. Proud2BeHumble
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    Proud2BeHumble Seek Truth, Be Happy

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    :salam2:

    Our Prophet (PBUH) lived amoung Jews and Christians. His noble behaviour made majority of them to convert to Islam. He showed us the true example of love and peaceful co-existence. Even after the departure of him, the companions spread all over the neighboring countries irrespective of Islamic or non-Islamic to spread the world of Allah. They might had lived with non-muslims as well.

    Moreover, it is easy for someone living peacefully in a Islamic country with its passport to issue a fatwa like that. However, based on his adivce, suppose if some muslim want to move to a Islamic country from a non-islamic country, who will provide the new citizenship? Which Islamic country is ready to welcome you? Which Islamic country is ready to provide the citizenship for the people from Thailand, Burma, Mongolia, India, Siri lanka, South Africa, Kenya etc to fulfill the requirements of this fatwa? I did not mention europe or US as there might be remote chance that they give citizenship based on skin colour to some of westerners but perhaps no hope for the countries i mentioned. So where the people of these countries can go in the world? Can Sheik provide some alternative?

    :wasalam:
  5. maisarah
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    salamualaikum,

    Very nice thread,its true.living in the strange country doesnt mean we mix with our neighbors.
    Allah swt has a reason why human splits into many races,cultures.its to know each other.

    wasalamulaykum
  6. alkathiri
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    alkathiri As-Shafaa'i(Brother)

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    :salam2:

    Looking at the comments, i suppose this thread might be closing soon

    I respect sheikh Bin Baaz,
    i would love to hear the 4 imams opinion on this . i expect them to have opinions that oppose sheikh bin baaz. Anyone has information on the opinions of the 4 imams

    .........................................................................................
    The hadith quote above is weak according to many classical scholars


    Hanafi , shafii and hanbali scholars say it is pemissible,clearly opposing to Sheikh Bin Baaz
  7. maisarah
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    I do not know what the purpose head of tti will deleting the thread.some member just share the story also they want to delete.its already been in a month!
    I dont think if just the story will effect our aqeedah.refer - devil even know fear.
  8. Proud2BeHumble
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    Proud2BeHumble Seek Truth, Be Happy

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    :salam2:

    Dear respected brother,

    Fatwa state:
    Is it practical? Is this moe beneficial than the harm it would create by following this fatwa. You live in singapore, it is also not Islamic country. So are you planning to come back to your country?

    It is not about muslim living in west but muslims living in any non-muslim country. Fatwa has highlighted all the consequences that will befall on muslims if they live in non-muslim land. How can we raise a issue, create a feeling of fear in our heart and close the thread without getting the solution to it.

    If you believe in the wisdom of this opinion, can you provided some reasonable solution to the situation faced by muslims as discussed in my first post?


    Jazakallah khair,

    :wasalam:
  9. alkathiri
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    alkathiri As-Shafaa'i(Brother)

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    dear beloved akhi,

    Thats the sad truth. Thats why i get angry at times at the mods.

    Take note:
    For those hanafi followers, there is no doubt you can take the opinions from shafii , hanbali scholars because it doesnt go against sharia
  10. Abu Sarah
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    Assalam Alaykum

    Dear All, 1st of All..u should know What we have heard about what our Muslim brothers are going through in kaafir countries in the north and the south, where they are being harassed and persecuted for something in which they did not take part and in which they played no role, is not strange, given the wrongdoing and hatred of the kuffaar, even though they claim to be the people of justice, fairness and freedom. What is the crime of a Muslim woman who walks down the street in her hijaab? What is the crime of a Muslim who leaves his home to go and pray, not to spread mischief in the land? What is the crime of a Muslim employee who goes to his company or a student who goes to his university or a schoolgirl who is walking to her school, not going out to bomb and destroy? If the western man in the street was fair-minded – at least with himself – he would go and take revenge on the people who plotted and took part in harming him. But one who does not fear God could do anything, and the very least that the Muslims will be faced with is curses and insults.

    Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “and you shall certainly hear much that will grieve you from those who received the Scripture before you (Jews and Christians) and from those who ascribe partners to Allaah; but if you persevere patiently, and become Al-Muttaqoon (the pious) then verily, that will be a determining factor in all affairs”
    [Aal ‘Imraan 3:186]


    .....................................................................
    Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) issued a detailed fatwa concerning the issue of settling in a kaafir country, which we will quote here.

    Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:

    Settling in a kaafir country poses a great danger to the Muslim’s religious commitment, morals, behaviour and etiquette. We and others have seen how many of those who settled there went astray and came back different from when they went; they have come back as evildoers, and some have come back having apostatized from their religion and disbelieving in it and in all other religions – we seek refuge with Allaah – denying it completely and mocking the religion and its people, past and present. Hence we must take measures to guard against that and stipulate conditions which will prevent people from following this path which leads to doom and destruction.

    There are two basic conditions which must be met before staying in kaafir countries:

    The first condition is: that the person must be secure in his religious commitment, so that he has enough knowledge, faith and will power to ensure that he will adhere firmly to his religion and beware of deviating or going astray, and that he has an attitude of enmity and hatred of the kaafirs and will not befriend them and love them, for befriending them and loving them are things that contradicts faith.

    Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “You (O Muhammad) will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), even though they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred (people)”

    [al-Mujaadilah 58:22]

    And He says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).

    And you see those in whose hearts there is a disease (of hypocrisy), they hurry to their friendship, saying: ‘We fear lest some misfortune of a disaster may befall us.’ Perhaps Allaah may bring a victory or a decision according to His Will. Then they will become regretful for what they have been keeping as a secret in themselves”


    [al-Maa’idah 5:51, 52]

    And it was narrated in al-Saheeh that the Prophet :saw: (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever loves a people is one of them” and that “A man will be with the one whom he loves.”

    Loving the enemies of Allaah is one of the most serious dangers for the Muslim, because loving them implies that one agrees with them and follows them, or at the very least that one does not denounce them, hence the Prophet :saw: (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Whoever loves a people is one of them.”

    ................................................................................................

    The second condition is that he should be able to practise his religion openly, so that he can observe the rituals of Islam with no impediment. So he will not be prevented from establishing regular prayer, and praying Jumu’ah and offering prayers in congregation if there are others there with whom he can pray in congregation and pray Jumu’ah; and he will not be prevented from paying zakaah, fasting, performing Hajj and doing other rituals of Islam. If he will not be able to do that then it is not permissible to stay there because it becomes obligatory to migrate (hijrah) in that case.

    Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said – explaining the categories of people who settle in non-Muslim lands:

    ................................................................................................


    The fourth category includes those who stay for an individual, permissible need, such as doing business or receiving medical treatment. It is permissible for them to stay as long as they need to. The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) have stated that it is permissible to go to kaafir countries in order to do business, and they narrated that some of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) had done that.

    ................................................................................................


    The Shaykh said – at the end of the fatwa:

    How can the believer be content to live in the land of the kuffaar where the rituals of kufr are proclaimed openly and rule belongs to someone other than Allaah and His Messenger, seeing that with his own eyes, hearing that with his own ears and approving of it, and even starting to feel that he belongs there and living there with his wife and children, and feeling as comfortable there as he does in the Muslim lands, even though he and his wife and children are in such great danger and their religious commitment and morals are in such peril?

    Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthyameen, Fatwa no. 388.
    .............................................................................
    <wasalam>
  11. alkathiri
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    alkathiri As-Shafaa'i(Brother)

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    He is a scholar not unknown . There is a khilaf on this matter. Either you are with the opinion of majority of classical (early) scholars or saudi salafee.
  12. Abu Sarah
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    Abu Sarah Allahu Akbar Staff Member

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    Wa Alaykum Assalm..

    look Akhi..u cann't say what u wanna without Evidence from

    are u see what that : It is narrated in a saheeh report

    the Prophet :saw:(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disavow myself of any Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.”
    Narrated by Abu Dawood; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood

    .........................................................................


    It is narrated in a saheeh report from Jareer ibn ‘Abd-Allaah al-Bajali (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: O Messenger of Allaah, accept my oath of allegiance and stipulate conditions. The Messenger of Allaah :saw:(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Worship Allaah, establish regular prayer, pay zakaah, be sincere towards the Muslims and keep away from the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Nasaa’i.


    It is also narrated in a saheeh report that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have nothing to do with any Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” And he :saw:(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah will not accept any deed from a mushrik after he becomes Muslim until he leaves the mushrikeen.”

    ..............................................................



    Ibn al-‘Arabi said in Ahkaam al-Qur’aan (1/612):

    Migration (hijrah) from dar al-kufr (kaafir lands) to dar al-Islam (Muslim lands) is obligatory.

    And from a land where innovation is widespread.

    Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: It is not permissible for anyone to settle in a land in which the salaf are reviled.

    And from a land in which haraam things are prevalent, for seeking halaal is an obligation for every Muslim

    and Refer to :the madhhab followed when answering questions submitted to the site

    .............................................................
    <wasalam>
  13. alkathiri
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    alkathiri As-Shafaa'i(Brother)

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    I told you it is shafii, hanafi , hanbali scholars having different opinion with some restrictions attached . Imam Malik as you know hardly/ never move out of mecca/ medina
    Never mind abt Imam Malik. Scholars view are respected but you prevent me from showing other opinion of scholars
  14. alkathiri
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    alkathiri As-Shafaa'i(Brother)

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    The hadith above is considered weak. Imam Abu dawood and tirmidhi , both who narrated the hadith above and say it is type of weak hadith . Imam tirmidhi quote Imam Bukhari saying it is not authentic . Is saudi salafees better than these great scholars ?

    thats why i say there is a difference in opinion. So plz...
  15. sky_012
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    i've been thinking about this issue since a long time ago,
    because to tell the truth , i've grown up in a non muslim country, i've studeid here, i've seen people's mentality and way of living, and it' s true that if someone wants go to on the path of Allah SWT, then it's really getting hard day by day here, you have to justify yourself for tiny things, and when i see the way of thinking of youngsters here, i can't think of what will happen to the next genereation if i stay here, sincerely i can tell openly i don't feel i'm strong enough to educate kids and tell them all the things while when they go at school they see the opposite and everyone doing it, even their muslim brothers and sisters, plus i can't control them 24/7 , i feel so afraid

    but at the same time, if i return back to my own country, there, how will i find food, how will i live a normal life, because it's to escpae poverty that my parents came here, and it's true, in my country there are many problems too, among muslims, and corruption , and life beeing expansive, and i can't even think of someone who has health problems, in our countries there aren't even proper hopsitals and treatments, how many people i've seen dying after an operation, or becoming more ill and having infections, because of the conditions there,

    and there my mind stops working, i just finish my thoughts with a prayer to Allah SWT, and i don't want to think of that i have to admit, i'm afraid of life, i'm afraid of how i will live in the future, and i know my imaan here is constantly put in trial and test, and i'm kind of tired too, to have to fight while i can feel perhaps more peace in a muslim place

    please can someone enlighten me on these feelings i have, i know i should put my trust in Allah SWT, but it's hard to take a step, if i moove in a muslim country, i know my parents won't follow me, and i'm so scared also of living alone with a husband far away from my parents

    i have many feelings like that :(
  16. alkathiri
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    alkathiri As-Shafaa'i(Brother)

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    Well sister you can always visit or call your parents. If u think hijrah is better , my advice is go for it....
  17. Abu Sarah
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    Abu Sarah Allahu Akbar Staff Member

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    i told u before.. The hadith above is classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood...

    u should learn alot about The Science of Hadith
    and refer to : Hadeeth & its Sciences
    <wasalam>
  18. alkathiri
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    alkathiri As-Shafaa'i(Brother)

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    Thanks akhi. but that is class as saheeh by Albani, one of the great hadith scientist. But look here, the hadith was narrated by Imam Abi Dawood . And he himself say it is a type of weak hadith. Not me.
  19. Abu Sarah
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    Abu Sarah Allahu Akbar Staff Member

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    n then don't ignore classification of hadeeth by Shaykh Albani..
  20. alkathiri
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    alkathiri As-Shafaa'i(Brother)

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    Shaikh Albani , i respect him. i respect his opinion . But he is a human being . We should not taksoob him( im not saying you are taqleed ing him) .
    i guess i should stop here. But im glad you allow this thread to be reopen . Akhi ayman offered it to me to be reopen , i didnt agree with that but its best we get it clear...

    The one thing that worries me is that people taksoob( blindly follow) saudi salafees.
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