Pl find time to see the understanding [to conclude them all faulty as you say] of dozens of scholars regarding Ayah 46:04 here
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/46/4/default.htm
Thanks
The Methodology of the Salaf Concerning Ijtihad and Taqlid
- Thread starter Aziboy
- Start date
Pl find time to see the understanding [to conclude them all faulty as you say] of dozens of scholars regarding Ayah 46:04 here
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/46/4/default.htm
Thanks
Harris Hammam
Junior Member
I'm not talking about their translation. I'm talking about your application of the verse to laymen who don't have a clue about how evidences work.
Handling evidences is not the job of any Zayd, Bakr, or `Amr.
So, you did not find any major difference about meanings and perception which I wrote about 46:04 with any of dozens of scholars I gave the link.
I am not talking of the layman. Please see post 260 again. I am just telling the laid down criteria for assessing any statement made by any Imam or scholar. Blind faith is nothing but self deception. Blind faith does not make any body sincere to any object. It is mechanical, robotic, of no avail and weight.
You forget what makes a book the great. A great book is smarter than the best teacher, but within reach of the average student.
I am not talking of the layman. Please see post 260 again. I am just telling the laid down criteria for assessing any statement made by any Imam or scholar. Blind faith is nothing but self deception. Blind faith does not make any body sincere to any object. It is mechanical, robotic, of no avail and weight.
You forget what makes a book the great. A great book is smarter than the best teacher, but within reach of the average student.
This is exactly what your Imams have been doing. Look at their selection of the names for referring ordinary people with scorn. All three names belong to those three persons like of whom will now never be born till the Last Day. They are greater in ranks than all other men who became Muslims after the decisive victory of Sanctified Mecca.
Harris Hammam
Junior Member
Well this is what this thread is about - laymen and their role.
Off-topic
I have no idea what you are trying to convey here.
I have no idea what you are talking about, nor does anybody else reading your post.
So we can't say Zayd, Bakr, and `Amr? What are we supposed to use then? Tom Dick and Harry?
I think readers will agree with me that your comments are totally off the ball.
Had they restricted their selves to Grand Qur'aan instead of their "scholarly flights", neither would have they chosen the names of those Great Men nor these Christian names you have now put in.
The majority of laymen does nothing except "taqleed", that which is placed before them and made talk of the town by mere repetitiveness in time and space by what are or wish or get known as scholars, clergymen etc. These layment are then called that they know nothing of the contents of the Book of Allah except conjectures, estimation, opinions throw before them.
Harris Hammam
Junior Member
Thank you, though I still don't understand what you are trying to achieve.
The point I wished you attended which I know is taken well but you seem not interested in the Book to accept it as solitary guide in time and space.
For people interested in area of thread, the link for detailed easy study.
Taqlid or taklid (Arabic تَقْليد taqlīd)
Pdf downloadable books Understanding Taqlid by Mufti Muhammad Sajaad
Taqlid (Shaykh Imam Tahir Mahmood al-Kiani)
Itqan Ullah
Time is Running!!
Asslamaliekum warahmatullahi wabrakatu,
I was thinking if I could request some ahle hadees students of knowledge from indo-pak to join us here and discuss this issue. It will be good to hear IF ulama (i mean ahle hadees ulama) really do oppose this definition of taqleed & its application or its that only common people misunderstood them, If they do then, what according to them should be role of a layman?,etc.
I'll try to contact them after my exams are over inshallah.
I was thinking if I could request some ahle hadees students of knowledge from indo-pak to join us here and discuss this issue. It will be good to hear IF ulama (i mean ahle hadees ulama) really do oppose this definition of taqleed & its application or its that only common people misunderstood them, If they do then, what according to them should be role of a layman?,etc.
I'll try to contact them after my exams are over inshallah.
Harris Hammam
Junior Member
I don't understand.
Wikipedia is the last place I would check for this type of stuff.
His initial article was 'Taqlid and the falsification of Islamic history' (google it). I assessed his article in totality on the other forum and proved it to be very amateurish. This second edition is a rehash of the original without any substantial changes or edits. There are even basic Arabic mistakes therein. I wouldn't trust what he has to say on Taqleed. He is not impartial. His position is that anything other than Taqleed Shakhsi is - literally - dangerous. In his personal support, he took the audacity to quote bits and bats from scholars who flatly opposed Taqleed Shakhsi in their writings.
This article too has been fully analysed and reviewed on the other forum, and turns out it has major flaws. It is a bit like the previous article.
Good idea. Wassalam
Itqan Ullah
Time is Running!!
Harris Hammam
Junior Member
It is a technical word. The terminology of Taqleed has been determined, accepted, and used by thousands of scholars. Itqanullah pointed that out to you.
I agree it is not a Shar`i term. If somebody denies the word Taqleed yet asks scholars as is the job of laymen if he is a layman, we won't have a problem because it is not word of the Shariah to begin with.
We do have a problem with those who 'condemn the word' as if there is evidence against the word. There is zero evidence in the Shariah that says you cannot use the word Taqleed.
Like Taqleed, there are hundreds of technical words and legal jargon used by scholars, yet I don't see anybody making a fuss about those. Like Itlaaq, Taqyeed, Takhsees, Ta`meem, etc.
May I also add that although this is not Shar`i terminology (rather it is Ijtihadi terminology - created through the determination of scholars), it is best to adhere to the terminology used by the scholars rather than reinventing the wheel, so to speak.
Dictionary definition? Pick up any classical Arabic dictionary and find out.
Please take a read of S. Shathri's book on Taqleed. In the beginning, he talks about the definition of Taqleed from a linguistic points of view and a technical (i.e. the first definition of Taqleed in the link) point of view.
Ma` Salaamah
Harris Hammam
Junior Member
Insha'allah.
Taqleed is not the only term used by the scholars. I told you the Usoolis all sorts of words to explain different concepts, such as Takhsees, Taqyeed...
Then the scholars have all sorts of words describing the levels of Hadith and its narrators, like Shadhdh, Da`eef Jiddan, Munkar, Mutawatir...
Then you have a subject called 'Tajweed'...
Where are all these words in the Shariah? Please tell us.
Like I told you, these are terminologies. One does not need Shar`i evidence for nomenclature. It is scholarly preference and scholarly tradition has been preserved like this.
We are not 'adding' to the Shariah. It is nonsense to suggest that you have more knowledge than hundreds of past scholars. Where did your Deen come to you from? From the scholars for God sake. Do you think they conveyed knowledge to you so that you could correct them en masse?
What term do you use anyway? Ittiba`? Ittiba` has been used for the disbelievers in the Quran, who blindly followed their forefathers!
You should wonder, because you are perhaps blindly following someone in this, and this the worst form of Taqleed. If you have actually picked up a classical dictionary in Arabic, you would have found this: Taj 'l-`Arus, under the word Qilaadah (root word of Taqleed):
والقلادة بالكسر، وإنما لم يضبطه اعتمادا على الشهرة خلافا لمن وهم فيه: ما جعل في العنق، يكون للإنسان والفرس والكلب والبدنة التي تهدى ونحوها. وقال الشهاب في العناية: ذهب بعض علماء اللغة إلى أن هيئة الكلمة قد تدل على معان مخصوصة، وإن لم تكن مشتقة نحو فعال، أي بالكسر إن لم تلحقه الهاء فهي اسم لما يجعل به الشيء كالآلة، كإمام وركاب وحزام، لما يؤتم به، ولما يركب به ولما يحزم ويشد به، فإن لحقته الهاء فهو اسم لما يشتمل على الشيء ويحيط به، كاللفافة والعمامة والقلادة. وهذا في غير المصادر، وأما فيها فقال أبو علي الفارسي في كتابه الحجة في سورة الكهف: فعالة، بالكسر. في المصادر، يجيء لما كان صنعة ومعنى متقلدا، كالكتابة والإمارة والخلافة والولاية، وما أشبه ذلك، وبالفتح في غيره. ومن أشهر الأمثال حسبك من القلادة ما أحاط بالعنق. وهو في مجمع الأمثال والمستقصى وغيرهما
See the underlined? It is for humans as well.
Basically, Qilaadah means anything that is placed over the neck. Doesn't matter whether it is the neck of a human or an animal. Who said it is specific to an animal!?
But anyways, why was the terms Qilaadah used anyway? That's a legitimate question. The answer is: a Muqallad (a horse who wins a race was in the ancient times given something to wear on the neck, i.e. Qilaadah), indicating that it is superior to others.
Similarly, the Imam who is followed is Muqallad, as if he is ahead of all the people who follow him (Muqallid, or linguistically those who - metaphorically - make the Imam wear something on his neck). So this is a metaphorical usage of the term (like all terminologies are), and it is this very meaning that the scholars have adopted in the context of the discussion on Taqleed.
This is how all terminologies were created, i.e. scholars tried to find a distinct term and saw some connection between the original dictionary meaning and the technical meaning for which they wanted to appoint a word for. This is how legal jargon is created.
If you insist on using the term Ittiba`, let yourself be advised that it is from the word Tabee`, a one-year-old calf (offspring of a cow), which follows its mother whether she goes - blindly.
Why people run away from the word Taqleed to Ittiba` have no idea. It is just terminology and legal jargon. But as they say in Arabic, فر من المطر وقام تحت الميزاب - he ran away from the rain, only to end up standing beneath a pipe through which water is gushing out! This is the parable of Taqleed and Ittiba`!
Harris Hammam
Junior Member
May I also ask - after you answer the questions from the previous, if you want - where in the whole history of Islam scholarly history did any scholar refute another because he used the 'wrong terminology'.
Harris Hammam
Junior Member
Clearly, you have comprehension issues, fighting over a word.
At the end of the day, you follow others as well - blindly - evidenced by the fact that you are copying and pasting!
There is no point rattling through each and every point of yours. All I ask you is this: What is the evidence for Tajweed? Where does this word come in the Shariah?
If you can't find it, then I would ask you: Why are you picking on the word Taqleed and not the word Tajweed?
At the end of the day, you follow others as well - blindly - evidenced by the fact that you are copying and pasting!
There is no point rattling through each and every point of yours. All I ask you is this: What is the evidence for Tajweed? Where does this word come in the Shariah?
If you can't find it, then I would ask you: Why are you picking on the word Taqleed and not the word Tajweed?
Harris Hammam
Junior Member
So you have no Daleel for the word Tajweed.
Do you read the Quran with Tajweed, or without Tajweed? How would you feel if I were to bash you over the fact that you read the Quran with Tajweed by the argument that "Tajweed as a word has no basis in the Shariah"?
It is a pertinent question, because your principle is that there should be evidence for terminology in the Shariah (something which no scholar of the past has ever stated, unless you can prove otherwise). If you want to bash Taqleed on this basis, then you should equally bash Tajweed and every other terminology used by the scholars as a matter of principle. It isn't off-topic. I submit to you that your principle is self-defeating and is unsustainable.
Coming back to Taqleed, why don't you give us a list of scholars in the past 1000 years who got it right on the Taqleed matter?
Do you read the Quran with Tajweed, or without Tajweed? How would you feel if I were to bash you over the fact that you read the Quran with Tajweed by the argument that "Tajweed as a word has no basis in the Shariah"?
It is a pertinent question, because your principle is that there should be evidence for terminology in the Shariah (something which no scholar of the past has ever stated, unless you can prove otherwise). If you want to bash Taqleed on this basis, then you should equally bash Tajweed and every other terminology used by the scholars as a matter of principle. It isn't off-topic. I submit to you that your principle is self-defeating and is unsustainable.
Coming back to Taqleed, why don't you give us a list of scholars in the past 1000 years who got it right on the Taqleed matter?
:salam2:
I've been gone for a few days, and I come back to this thread, and it's so ridiculous I cant even be bothered to read past these last few posts.
Abu Musab, I honestly have to ask, did Hammy or Aziboy put you up to this thread? Cos your join date and way of talking makes it highly plausible.
What's up with all the emotional talking? As if it drives the truth in discussions. So what if Tajweed is used for the Qur'aan and Taqleed is used for Fiqh - they're both terms, unless you're degrading Fiqh (which is based on the principles and proof from Qur'an and Sunnah) and making is similar in any way to a useless bicycle.
Well without this useless bicycle you wouldn't even know how to conduct a single salaah, there's so many differences and nuances of fiqh within even that.
Unless each and every person has the tools and ability to make Ijtihaad (which they do not) Taqleed is unavoidable and necessary to an extent, and to call it a 'worst thing' - you are making a mockery of the generations of Islaam, and in my opinion, undermining the Shar'iah of Allah subhahu wa ta'ala.
I've been gone for a few days, and I come back to this thread, and it's so ridiculous I cant even be bothered to read past these last few posts.
Abu Musab, I honestly have to ask, did Hammy or Aziboy put you up to this thread? Cos your join date and way of talking makes it highly plausible.
What's up with all the emotional talking? As if it drives the truth in discussions. So what if Tajweed is used for the Qur'aan and Taqleed is used for Fiqh - they're both terms, unless you're degrading Fiqh (which is based on the principles and proof from Qur'an and Sunnah) and making is similar in any way to a useless bicycle.
Well without this useless bicycle you wouldn't even know how to conduct a single salaah, there's so many differences and nuances of fiqh within even that.
Unless each and every person has the tools and ability to make Ijtihaad (which they do not) Taqleed is unavoidable and necessary to an extent, and to call it a 'worst thing' - you are making a mockery of the generations of Islaam, and in my opinion, undermining the Shar'iah of Allah subhahu wa ta'ala.
Harris Hammam
Junior Member
Still you have zero evidence from the Quran and Sunnah for the word Tajweed. Do you even know that the word Tajweed is used for something bad in the science of Hadith?
You seriously lack comprehension. I don't even know why you are participating in this discussion. Who said the technical meaning of the word is the same as the dictionary meaning!? Yes the word has an origin and some connection with the dictionary meaning as I explained to you, but it does not mean that we have converted the scholars into animals! Ordinary Muslims follow scholars because they are ahead in knowledge, just like a Qilaadah is placed on the neck of a winning horse.
I don't understand how this can be offensive. Brave people are called lions. Do you know what a stud is? People don't take offense when these terms are used.
But since you don't like the word Taqleed and love Ittiba`, I proved to you that Ittiba` originates from Tabee`, which means a one-year-old calf following its cow mother. I therefore put it to you that you are the calf and whatever you are following - not the scholars, maybe some fanatic for sure - is a cow. How do you feel about that?
We use Taqleed as a terminology. Terminology requires no evidence. It is legal jargon.
So back to the question: Why don't you give us a list of scholars in the past 1000 years who got it right on the Taqleed matter? Or do you believe they were literally all animals with Qilaadahs hanging from their necks (like you accused them of being)?
Bring us the list. I don't think the so-called 'clock of anti-Taqleed' in Islam started ticking when you arrived on this thread. Who do you have to show us?
As'alaamu Alaikkum
Why worry about useless terms and complication in Islam? The religion of Islam is the easiest religion that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala granted to mankind. He in His infinite mercy gave us so many concessions because we are naturally lazy creatures.
So the best thing as a Muslim to do is Shahada, Pray, Zakat, Hajj & Fast and one will have the best chance of reaching Jannatal Firdous. Who can say this scholar or that scholar is right? At the end of the day they are all human beings like us with the same intellect. Surely what we all should do is take what is beneficial for us in being the best Muslim that we an be. It's not complicated at all but we like to make it complicated because we are all stubborn, arrogant and boastful creatures.
Allahum Alum!
Why worry about useless terms and complication in Islam? The religion of Islam is the easiest religion that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala granted to mankind. He in His infinite mercy gave us so many concessions because we are naturally lazy creatures.
So the best thing as a Muslim to do is Shahada, Pray, Zakat, Hajj & Fast and one will have the best chance of reaching Jannatal Firdous. Who can say this scholar or that scholar is right? At the end of the day they are all human beings like us with the same intellect. Surely what we all should do is take what is beneficial for us in being the best Muslim that we an be. It's not complicated at all but we like to make it complicated because we are all stubborn, arrogant and boastful creatures.
Allahum Alum!
Asif1
Banned
Assalam Alaykum,
We've heard of difference of opinions between sahabas, scholars and other muslims here, than why can't we have it in between us.
I totally disagree to whatever brother harris had tried to conveyed here so far, asking the scholar is not a Taqleed at all as it is stated in the glorious Qur'an to ask the people of knowledge which itself is a daleel.
I found brother harris harsh and confusing also, I have got no issues with those who are convinced with him but Taqleed means blind following which a true Muslim will never get into.
If we ask the scholars, its our duty to cross check it with others, or else I fear that the Muqallids are only going to end up saying in their graves 'Ha ha la adri. '' ( O' what a pity I do not know). Then a command would come from the sky. " This person is lying. Lay for him the bedding of fire and dress him with the clothes of fire and open the doors of Hell." The heat of hell will enter the grave. Two other angels will be appointed to give the person punishment in the grave, by snakes, scorpions and other means.
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/543529_3423700273764_1240726750_n.jpg
We've heard of difference of opinions between sahabas, scholars and other muslims here, than why can't we have it in between us.
I totally disagree to whatever brother harris had tried to conveyed here so far, asking the scholar is not a Taqleed at all as it is stated in the glorious Qur'an to ask the people of knowledge which itself is a daleel.
I found brother harris harsh and confusing also, I have got no issues with those who are convinced with him but Taqleed means blind following which a true Muslim will never get into.
If we ask the scholars, its our duty to cross check it with others, or else I fear that the Muqallids are only going to end up saying in their graves 'Ha ha la adri. '' ( O' what a pity I do not know). Then a command would come from the sky. " This person is lying. Lay for him the bedding of fire and dress him with the clothes of fire and open the doors of Hell." The heat of hell will enter the grave. Two other angels will be appointed to give the person punishment in the grave, by snakes, scorpions and other means.
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/543529_3423700273764_1240726750_n.jpg