The Methodology of the Salaf Concerning Ijtihad and Taqlid

[Harris Hammam]

Laymen are supposed to ask a trustworthy scholar. Simple. Nobody is complicating it.

The only people who complicate it are those who are asking laymen to cross-reference their fatwas with Quran and Sunnah. How on earth is a layman supposed to do that without knowledge of Arabic!?

I think some brothers who are so obsessively anti-Taqleed on his thread want us to break away from scholarly tradition and want to force us into their way of thinking, as if nobody got it right before them. Had they had any scholar in the past 1000 years supporting their anti-Taqleed stance, they would have produced a list of scholars for us by now. They have failed in this regard.

This mentality of 'nobody was right before us' is pretty disgusting. I bet that none of these brothers have had any formal education in the traditional Islamic sciences, evidence by the fact that:
a. they are copying-pasting everything they say
b. making immature remarks in English
c. lack of comprehension of what has been said
d. no knowledge of Arabic

Breaking away from traditional scholarship of the Quran and Sunnah is a crime in itself, and creates mistrust between Muslims and their scholars. Yet the Deen was carried by the scholars, and laymen should have trust in the scholars.

ok let's try this - can they produce anybody from the Arab scholars who agree with them on their anti-Taqleed stance?

My guess is that they will fail to answer any of the above.

 

[Harris Hammam]

This post is designed to highlight that the people quoted are not qualified to speak on this academic matter. I'm surprised with myself as to how I've been so patient in even discussing with these people.

Waleykum assalam wa rehmatullah wa barkatahu.

A number of grammatical blunders here. Correct spelling would be Wa-`Alaykum al-Salam Wa-Rahmatullah Wa-Barakatuh.

well, that is your opinion and i respect it however that's not true. Taqleed is an innovative belief

You shouldn't respect an innovation, if you feel it is an innovation.

so if you hold a good knowledge about hanafi Fiqh than just a simple question. why Hanafis men keep their hands below belly button and women on their chest?

It is also the Madhhab of the Hanbalis. The hallmark of these anti-Taqleed teenagers is that they always single out Hanafi Fiqh when other schools also said the same. This is a matter of difference of opinion and only the people with a lack of understanding in Fiqh would use it to condemn other opinions.

"Al-Hidayah is like the Quran It has abrogated what was written before it in books of religious law"

Another copy and paste. Using such statements that nobody on this thread believes in is childish.

“The book “Durul Mukhtar” was written by the Prophet’s tongue” (Muqadimah Durul Mukhtar)

It is Al-Durr al-Mukhtar, not Durul Mukhtar.

Why worry about useless terms and complication in Islam? The religion of Islam is the easiest religion that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala granted to mankind. He in His infinite mercy gave us so many concessions because we are naturally lazy creatures.

If it is so easy in the manner you put it, every Muslim would now how to speak Arabic. Can you?

Who can say this scholar or that scholar is right? At the end of the day they are all human beings like us with the same intellect.

Are you serious? Everybody has the same level of intellect!? Allah says that the knowledgeable and the non-knowledgeable cannot be equal. Allah says that He raises the ranks of the Ahl l-`Ilm. You are going against the Quran.

Allahum Alum!

It's Allahu A`lam, not Allahum Alum. You really don't know Arabic.

We've heard of difference of opinions between sahabas, scholars and other muslims here, than why can't we have it in between us.

Why can't you accept hundreds of years of scholarly tradition that say that Taqleed - asking scholars - is Wajib on the layman?

I totally disagree to whatever brother harris had tried to conveyed here so far, asking the scholar is not a Taqleed at all as it is stated in the glorious Qur'an to ask the people of knowledge which itself is a daleel.

We already discussed this in the definitions of Taqleed. Since the Deen is very easy, reading this thread should be easier.

If we ask the scholars, its our duty to cross check it with others

I bet you have never done this in your life, except maybe check on the Internet. Yet who are you to cross-reference what is on the Internet!?

so Muqallids are bringing their "Taqleed" in these 5 pillars so we should forced to believe in their vain desires and stay away from the original practice of Sahabas and teachings of Prophet (saww) in the name of Taqleed.

So all the 1000s of scholars who discussed Taqleed wanted to invent the sixth pillar of Islam!? Do you know of any scholar in the past 1000 years who actually refuted this so-called sixth pillar?

thats what happen when you don;t have enough resources (from Qur'an and Sunnah) to prove their lame claim they switch topics to other things and end up being harsh and confuse themselves.

You know how to copy-and-paste really well. You just don't understand what you are copying-pasting.

Allahumma inni Au'dhubika min Adhaabil Qabri.

1. Au'dhubika is wrong. It's two words, A`udhu Bika.
2. Why are you seeking protection from the punishment of the grave on this thread? Why is there an obsession with the grave on an academic matter?

Ameen Yaa Rabbil Alameen.

It's Yaa Rabbal, not Rabbil.


After all of these blunders, advise us why we should take you seriously.

Ma` Salaamah

 

[Harris Hammam]

Here is an excellent lecture on the role of Madhhabs in Islam:

http://theseekerspath.com/downloads...ance of Fiqh in our Life (Entire Program).mp3

I recommend everybody to listen to it.

 

[Ershad]

Here is an excellent lecture on the role of Madhhabs in Islam:

http://theseekerspath.com/downloads...ance of Fiqh in our Life (Entire Program).mp3

I recommend everybody to listen to it.

:salam2:

Forgive my ignorance. I am not so sure about the website The Seekers Path which calls for Chisti Tariqah or the speaker. It sounds suspicious and also, the speaker is from Dar al-Ulum Deoband. Can I know about the speaker and who recommended or praised this Shaykh.

 

[Thauban]

This post is designed to highlight that the people quoted are not qualified to speak on this academic matter. I'm surprised with myself as to how I've been so patient in even discussing with these people.

If it is so easy in the manner you put it, every Muslim would now how to speak Arabic. Can you?


Are you serious? Everybody has the same level of intellect!? Allah says that the knowledgeable and the non-knowledgeable cannot be equal. Allah says that He raises the ranks of the Ahl l-`Ilm. You are going against the Quran.


It's Allahu A`lam, not Allahum Alum. You really don't know Arabic.


Ma` Salaamah

OK Mr. know it all scholar you got me, I don't speak a work of Arabic like the 95 % of the Muslim population so forgive me.

If I need any help in Islam then I'd be sure to come to you to please your ego.

As'alaamu alaikkum

And please don't correct that because it's the way I prefer to write it. Shokran.

 

[Harris Hammam]

:salam2:

Forgive my ignorance. I am not so sure about the website The Seekers Path which calls for Chisti Tariqah or the speaker. It sounds suspicious and also, the speaker is from Dar al-Ulum Deoband. Can I know about the speaker and who recommended or praised this Shaykh.

Wassalam

I sent the link specifically to this lecture. Not the whole website. If there was any Chishtism involved, I would not have sent the link. If there are any mistakes, it is advised that we abandon the mistakes, not everything coming from that source.

The speaker is Sheikh Taha Karan of Cape Town. He has his own Islamic school in the city. I recommend the Sheikh on this topic. He is very balanced, and he was the top student at Darul Uloom Deoband in his year. He is extremely competent. I would hate to even listen to anybody who think they have some divine right to criticise him for no apparent reason except that they haven't achieved as much in life as he has.

OK Mr. know it all scholar you got me, I don't speak a work of Arabic like the 95 % of the Muslim population so forgive me.

If I need any help in Islam then I'd be sure to come to you to please your ego.

As'alaamu alaikkum

And please don't correct that because it's the way I prefer to write it. Shokran.

It's Shukran, not Shokran. Your spelling is giving me a headache. And Alaikum should only have one 'k', not two.

You guys think that Taqleed is Haram because the Deen is very easy? Very well, let's see how long it takes for you to learn Arabic, shall we? I just want to know how much Taqleed in translation you guys do, despite your claims that it is Haram and that layman must cross-reference fatwas whose evidences are in Arabic!!!

Can you participate in a sober discussion without resorting to copying and pasting?

Which Islamic University says that Taqleed is Haram anyway? OR are they all wrong too, just like all the scholars for the past 1000 years? I have heard no answers.


(I have noticed that some people are telling me to take it a bit easy with these juveniles. I understand, but you need to realise that when unqualified people start acting as if they are authorities in the Deen of Allah and are happy to dismiss hundreds of years of scholarship, they should be taught what their real place in life is. Since this is the Internet, we only have the power of words. I feel the treatment these brothers are receiving is perfectly justified, insha'allah.)

 

[Harris Hammam]

If I need any help in Islam then I'd be sure to come to you to please your ego.

You don't need to come to me, nor is my purpose to 'school' readers here. You can go to any scholar.

My purpose of participating is that I observe people here are disuniting the Ummah due to their ignorance. My purpose is to highlight their ignorance so at least they know they are ignorant. It is a calamity on the Ummah that a person who is ignorant think he knows it all.

In the world of copying-and-pasting, these juveniles think they have the right to criticise the scholars of Islam willy nilly. We're talking about the heirs of the Prophets, just in case people forgot. I'm not saying scholars are infallible; I'm saying that whatever you say must be rooted in Islamic academic tradition (which upholder of the Dhikr, which Allah has promised to preserve). Nobody has the right to act as if the clock of Islam started ticking when people started reading and posting on TTI.

Why don't these juveniles go to another subject and annoy the people there with their ignorance? Like engineering, or medicine, or secular law? Why always pick on Islamic Fiqh?

 

[Harris Hammam]

وَلاَ تَقْفُ مَا لَيْسَ لَكَ بِهِ عِلْمٌ
إِنَّ السَّمْعَ وَالْبَصَرَ وَالْفُؤَادَ كُلُّ أُولَـئِكَ كَانَ عَنْهُ مَسْؤُولاً

Be mindful that you should not pursue-track that course, idea or thought, about which knowledge has not been in the state of access for you.
It is a fact that the faculty-sense of processing sounds and verbal information, and the visualizations; and faculty of Processing-Integrating-producing Knowledge-[Brain], each will be subjected individually to questioning/scrutiny. [17:36]

I believe that if people are bombarded with the knowledge of Taqleed as was understood by the scholar, respecting their differences of opinion in the issue, and comprehending where they were coming from and their evidences, I think this will help the Ummah and will be beneficial knowledge to all. At least it will save the Ummah from the bigotry and ignorance of the few, and will drown them out.

We are in a situation where there is so much extremism on both sides that knowledge of this matter has become more Fard than most other aspects of knowledge out there.

 

[Harris Hammam]

I was reading a Shafi`i Fiqh book today and it stated that it is permissible for people to do Taqleed of the Muezzin in the timings of the Salah.

I guess that, according to the anti-Taqleed crew, people must go out to check what the position of the sun is to 'cross-reference' the 'authenticity' of the Adhan, and shouldn't rely on the Muezzin.

Good luck to them with that.

 

[thariq2005]

I was reading a Shafi`i Fiqh book today and it stated that it is permissible for people to do Taqleed of the Muezzin in the timings of the Salah.

I guess that, according to the anti-Taqleed crew, people must go out to check what the position of the sun is to 'cross-reference' the 'authenticity' of the Adhan, and shouldn't rely on the Muezzin.

Good luck to them with that.

Interesting.

Is this what the other madhaahib mention as well?

 

[Harris Hammam]

Interesting.

Is this what the other madhaahib mention as well?

Yes all schools agree with this, and this is the practice of the people.

Actually, this issue is known as تقليد المؤذن, or Taqleed of a Muezzin [in the timings of Salah].

 

[Harris Hammam]

In the famous story where the Sahabah differed over the timing of the `Asr prayer, it is submitted that not all the Sahabah were jurists, but rather just agreed to do Taqleed of the jurists therein and prayer `Asr along with them.

The Prophet peace be upon him did not condemn either group when he was informed. Nor did he condemn the Muqallids* of either opinion.

(* Muqallid i.e. follower of a jurist's verdict.)

 

[Harris Hammam]

Al-Suyuti (died 911 A.H.), the great Shafi`i scholar, said:

It has been said: Taqleed is not even permissible for the layman.

This was the position of the Mu`tazilites of Baghdad.

They obliged [the layman] to learn the evidence of the ruling, and said that he should only refer to a scholar so that he informs him of [the ruling's] sources.

vol. 2, pg 416, http://www.waqfeya.com/book.php?bid=1247

Why these guys are hell-bent on reviving their opinion I have no idea. Can anybody explain to me why these participants on this thread are trying their best to do this, because I can't get that round my head.

 

[Asif1]

:salam2:

We are commanded to worship Allah [swt] in the way Allah [swt] and His Messenger (saw) directed us.

Lets understand the Text in the light of the Text

Anyone who is hostile to the Messenger after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him and follows a path other than that of the believers, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen and cast him into Hell, which is an evil refuge.[115]

Allah [swt] says: “That day (Allah) will call to them, and say: What was the answer you gave to the Messengers?” [Sûrah al-Qasus: 65] Allah does not say that He will ask: What was the answer you gave to this or that SCHOLAR?

Allah, moreover, says: “What! Have they partners who have established for them some religion without the permission of Allah?” [Sûrah al-Shûrâ: 21].

Volume: 9, Book Number: 92, Hadith Number: 422

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure, you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

41: Volume: 4, Book Number: 56, Hadith Number: 662

Narrated Abu Said:
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "You will follow the wrong ways, of your predecessors so completely and literally that if they should go into the hole of a mastigure, you too will go there." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you mean the Jews and the Christians?" He replied, "Whom else?" (Meaning, of course, the Jews and the Christians.)

Volume: 9, Book Number: 92, Hadith Number: 419

Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Do not wish to be like anybody except in two cases: The case of a man whom Allah has given wealth and he spends it in the right way, and that of a man whom Allah has given religious wisdom (i.e., Koran and Sunna) and he gives his verdicts according to it and teaches it." (to others i.e., religious knowledge of Koran and Sunna (Prophet's Traditions)). "

Allah [swt] says: They (Jews and Christians) have taken their Rabbis and priests to be their Lords beside Allah and so they did with Messiah (Jesus), the son of Mary, although they were commanded to worship none but One Ilah (Allah); besides Whom there is none worthy of worship. Exalted be He above those whom they associate with Him.[ Sûrah at-Tauba:31]

“Then ask those who possess the Message (Ahl adh-Dhikr) if you do not know.” (Quran, 21:7 and 16:43)

Asking itself if a Daleel from the Qur’an which proves blind following to be wrong.

The Ahl adh-Dhikr are, as we all know, are the Scholars of Qur’aan and Hadith, those who know the authentic from the unauthentic, the general from the specific, the abrogating from the abrogated, and other such principles of Fiqh and Hadith.

What if the scholars gives wrong Daleel or conceal the truth???

Those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance, after We have made it clear in the Book for mankind will have Allah's curse and that of those who are entitled to curse; except those who repent, reform and let the truth be known; I will accept their repentance, for I am the Receiver of Repentance, the Merciful.[ AL-BAQARAH: 159-160]

Our concern should be with the evidence. When you hear a scholar say something and mention his evidence, then this is what should be taken if the scholar is trustworthy.

If the scholar provides no evidence, then the questioner has the right to ask for evidence so that he can be more satisfied and convinced.

In case a person is faced with two different opinions without being provided with any evidence or without being able to make a determination for himself based on the evidence that he has been given, then he should take the opinion of the most trustworthy scholar.

If he considers them to be equally knowledgeable, trustworthy, and pious, then there is disagreement about whom the person should follow.
Some people of knowledge are of the opinion that the person should follow the easer opinion of the two, while others prefer that he should follow the more difficult.

And Allah knows the best.

brother harris quote Scholars to prove his point, now please tell me How would you verify if whatever the scholars have mentioned it authentic or not? not the Qur'an and Hadith but the sayings of Scholars which you rely upon so much so that you are taken it as a part of ur deen. can you prove it pls? So that we could move further.

I BET BROTHER HARRIS HAVE GOT NO DALEEL FROM QURAN AND HADITH FOR HIS ALLEGATIONS.

REMEMBER ALLAH'S GUIDANCE IS THE ONLY GUIDANCE AND NO MUSLIM IS A BLIND FOLLOWER AND IF SOMEONE IS BLINDLY FOLLOWING SOMETHING THAN IT HAS TO BE A DEVIANT

Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Aalamin

 

[Harris Hammam]

Amidst all the waffle, there are some genuine questions I'd like to pick up on. The rest can be ignored.

I remember Prophet (saww) saying do not to disrespect others lords and their innovative practices and all... so i obeyed the command of my Prophet (saww).

Good. Respect Taqleed then, as was the position of hundreds of scholars who obliged it on the layman like you.

MashaAllah... so you have faith in this book. so i would rank you a "Complete Hanafi" now... you are a complete hanafi and sad part is the moderators like it.

I'm not promoting Hanafi law. I'm promoting an understanding of what the scholars have said. If you really think that the literature they produced on the subject has zero evidences, you are blind. YOu really need to read the evidences used by the scholars for Taqleed. Alas, you don't know Arabic - you'll probably do Taqleed of a translation.

bring us some sayings of scholars before 4th Century.

If you actually opened your eyes and looked at Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah and Musannaf `Abd 'l-Razzaq (you probably don't even know what these two things are), you'll find hundreds of fatwas of the Salaf mentioned therein without any evidence! Yet these two are accepted books for the scholars.

Here is a fatwa from the Saudi Lajnah on Taqleed, which they say is a must on layman like you:
http://www.alifta.net/Fatawa/Fatawa...nID=2&SubjectPageTitlesID=19778&MarkIndex=2&0

Al-Qarafi reports the Ijma` of the Sahabah on Taqleed for laymen:
انعقد الإجماع على أن من أسلم فله أن يقلد من شاء من العلماء بغير حجر
There is consensus that a Muslim can to Taqleed of whichever scholar he likes without restriction.
وأجمع الصحابة رضي الله عنهم أن من استفتى أبا بكر أو عمر وقلدهما فله أن يستفتي أبا هريرة ومعاذ بن جبل وغيرهما ويعمل بقولهما من غير نكير
The Companions agreed that a person asking Abu Bakr or Umar and doing Taqleed of them had the right to do Taqleed of Abu Hurayrah and Muadh bin Jabal and others and take their opinion. This was done by them without condemnation of such practice.
فمن ادعى دفع هذين الإجماعين فعليه الدليل
Whoever claims a dismissal of these two pieces of consensus, he should bring evidence.

Ibn `Abd 'l-Barr, the mouthpiece of Imam Malik and commentator on al-Muwatta', said that any condemnation against Taqleed is directed at scholars, not laymen who have no choice. He said:
"Layman must do Taqleed of their scholars when a situation arises, because the place of proof s no clear for them, and the scholars didn't differ that laymen must follow their scholars"
وهذا كله لغير العامة ، فإن العامة لا بد لها من تقليد علمائها عند النازلة ، لأنها لا تتبين موقع الحجة ، ولم تختلف العلماء أن العامة عليها تقليد علمائها

Honestly, there is excessive material from the era of the Salaf on this, but a blind person who wants to be blind will not see any of this.

so according to you all Arab's are scholars and Alims, cuz their mother tongue is Arabic, isnt it!

Arabic is just one prerequisite for Ijtihad pal. There are a few more prerequisites as well. Of course, thise mean nothing to you because you haven't studied a classical text, and whatever you've copied-pasted you have misunderstood.

poor Shafi's, when a woman is touched accidentally and if they are in state of Wudhoo, their Wudhoo is not valid... I wonder what they will do when they go for Hajj or Umrah.

Why don't you actually ask a Shafi`i scholar about this, instead of condemning them on a forum!? This rule has been discussed for decades, and they say that they take the verdict of Imam Abu Hanifah in this scenario.

Adhan is the call for prayer, Jibril (as) came to Prophet (saww) to tell him (saww) the timings of prayers. and accordingly he (saww) ordered the prayer timings. we say Labbaik to Allah (swt) when the call for prayer is made so you taqlid crews say labbaik to Muezzin than Good luck to you Muqallids....

Yet when a scholar tells you 'this is the ruling of the Shariah', you feel the need to take his exam and demand him for evidence! No scholars in history has said that he must give you evidence without you asking for it.

If we have any moderator here who could try and do justification with the way harris hamman is writing would be appreciated. I am reporting it as insult here

Unfortunately Mr. Harris Hammam has so many fans here most notably the moderators, so he can't do wrong. They are all in awe of him. Shame.

There has to be some justification, I mean if he as a given a right to write and express than others must have the same rights to defend and object to whatever he is writting without Daleel.

I too feel bad to see such kinda attitude of our moderators here, please allow everyone to express and prove their points, its has never been proved that harris is right coz no Muslim can be a blind follower.

I think it's simple. We have a few guys like yourselves who are totally unqualified to speak on the subject, evidenced by your lack of knowledge, your mistake-ridden transliteration, and your misunderstanding of the texts, and your endless copy-pasting. Readers are quite clever about where you exactly stand. I don't think anybody would want to study by you, because you don't have any scholars to begin with!

Can you recommend any Islamic University in the world that supports your 'anti-Taqleed for laymen' tendencies? And can you bring any scholar in the past 1000 years who supports your 'anti-Taqleed for laymen' claims? Please, tell us.

What if the scholars gives wrong Daleel or conceal the truth???

Yeh Asif, how would you know!? All this copy-and-pasting - how do you even know that what they are saying is right!?

We say a layman is excused beyond asking a trustworthy scholar. You say that he must look for evidence. How will you know that what this scholar is telling you is correct? How will you 'cross-reference' (as you or one of your buddies put it)?

But the best is left for the next post...

 

[Harris Hammam]

I found this very funny.

Our concern should be with the evidence. When you hear a scholar say something and mention his evidence, then this is what should be taken if the scholar is trustworthy.

You are so blind! You copied and pasted this from Salman al-`Awdah, the Saudi scholar!
http://en.islamtoday.net/node/1233

You don't even have the courtesy the reference your copy-pasting! You are plagiarising, which is a criminal act in the world of knowledge.

Do you even know what Salman al-`Awdah says about Taqleed for the layman like you!? He says it is FARD:
http://books.islamww.com/GoToPage2128-10423-7729-155.html

Like I said before, you chappies don't even know what you are copy-pasting, and who you are copy-pasting from. I think that is why the moderators here are pretty happy for your ignorance to be flushed out so all can be warned from falling into the self-righteous trap you are shackled in right this moment.

If the scholar provides no evidence, then the questioner has the right to ask for evidence so that he can be more satisfied and convinced.

This too is from Sheikh Salman, which we agree with.

In case a person is faced with two different opinions without being provided with any evidence or without being able to make a determination for himself based on the evidence that he has been given, then he should take the opinion of the most trustworthy scholar.

We agree with Sheikh Salman on this. However, you don't, which calls into question why on earth you are copy-pasting from such a 'deviant' scholar!

If he considers them to be equally knowledgeable, trustworthy, and pious, then there is disagreement about whom the person should follow.
Some people of knowledge are of the opinion that the person should follow the easer opinion of the two, while others prefer that he should follow the more difficult.

We completely agree with S. Salman on this. Nowhere does he mention that they layman must ask for evidence they become a judge over the two scholars.

I BET BROTHER HARRIS HAVE GOT NO DALEEL FROM QURAN AND HADITH FOR HIS ALLEGATIONS.

Said by the man who doesn't even know he was copy-pasting from S. Salman al-`Awdah.

REMEMBER ALLAH'S GUIDANCE IS THE ONLY GUIDANCE AND NO MUSLIM IS A BLIND FOLLOWER AND IF SOMEONE IS BLINDLY FOLLOWING SOMETHING THAN IT HAS TO BE A DEVIANT

Like you copying from S. Salman al-`Awdah

Ma` Salaamah

 

[Asif1]

I found this very funny.

You are so blind! You copied and pasted this from Salman al-`Awdah, the Saudi scholar!

Like you copying from S. Salman al-`Awdah

Ma` Salaamah

The quality of reply that I am getting, you only deserve copy paste, coz I know that you don't have a reply for your claims here. This thread is not progressing coz u r not even able to answer the pasted items. Also I have other Huqooq to fulfill, don't have leisure like you to quote and write whatever.

You either waste time in googling from where others get the article or try to correct the spelling bit, whereas lots of people have asked ya so many things and are still awaiting your reply. but know what, you do like all others do, spining the ball, and playing with ur own words rather than providing authentic answers

 

[Asif1]

Come to Darul Uloom Deoband and you'll see the true face of Fitna, they agree to Halala, Trading on Dog's skin, and Do you know the conditions to lead the prayer harris, pls elaborate some if u r a true hanafi

 

[Harris Hammam]

My recommendation is that the pair of you are banned so readers here can discuss some more sensible topics in a calm and sober manner. The two of you have proven you can't do any of this. You are a mere distraction with your ad hominem attacks, and my course of discussion with the two of you has ended here.

If anybody else has something sensible to say, I'm happy to discuss that.

 

[Asif1]

NO ANSWER as expected, fine