the story of Jeremiah

oumyaquine

Fière de ma religion
Almighty Allah declared: And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the children of Israel (saying): "Take not other than me as your Wakil (Protector, Lord, or Disposer of your affairs, etc). O offspring of those whom We carried in the ship with Noah! Verily, he was a grateful slave."
And We decreed for the children of Israel in the Scripture, that indeed you would do mischief of the earth twice and you will become tyrants and extremely arrogant! So, when the promise came for the first of the two, We sent against you slaves of Yours given to terrible warfare. They entered the very innermost parts of your homes. And it was a promise completely fulfilled. Then We gave you once again, a return of victory over them. And We helped you with wealth and children and made you more numerous in manpower.

And We said: "If you do good, you do good for yourselves, and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves."
Then, when the second promise came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to make your faces sorrowful and to enter the mosque (of Jerusalem) as they had entered it before, and to destroy with utter destruction that fell in their hands.
(And We said in the Torah): "It may be that your Lord may show mercy unto you, but if you return to sins, We shall return to Our Punishment. And We have made Hell a prison for the disbeliveers. " (Ch 17:2-8 Quran).

Wahb Ibn Munbah reported that when sin increased, Allah revealed to an Israelite prophet called Amos (Mamia) (pbuh) that he should stand before his people and admonish them that they are hard-headed, blind, and deaf and tell them: "I (Allah) remember their forefathers, and that makes Me merciful with them. And ask them about My bounty: can any of them benefit from disobeying Me? And does any suffer who obeys Me? The beasts remember their countries and return to them, but those people have forgotten why I have favored them for the sake of their forefathers, and have misused their generosity. Your cries have forgotten My tenets and your reciters worship other than Me, and your women have not learned a useful lesson and their rulers have lied against me and My messengers. Their hearts and mouths are full of lies. And I swear by My majesty and power that I will send upon them people with strange tongues, and strange faces, merciless in the face of their tears; and I shall
send them a tyrannous cruel king, with an army like clouds, and followers like storms, and their flags like the wings of eagles, and the paces of their hoses like the decades of a journey. They will return buildings to dust, and leave the villages a wilderness. Woe betide it and its inhabitants if they shout and invoke! I will not look at their faces."

Ibn Asaker has related the same in these words: Ishaaq Ibn Bishr said that Idris told them that Wahb Ibn Munbah said that Allah the Exalted sent Jeremiah to the children of Israel when the situation had become worse among them - in disobedience, killing of prophets and covetousness. Allah was determined to revenge Himself upon them vindictively; and so He revealed to Jeremiah: "I am going to destroy Jerusalem (the children of Israel) irevenge. Go to the Dome of the Rock. I will give you My commands and revelations. " Jeremiah stood up and rent his clothes, and applied ashes to his face and fell prostrate and said: "O Lord! Would that my mother had not borne me, when You made me the last prophet of Israel, and Jerusalem be destroyed in my time." Allah said: "Raise your head." He raised his head, wept, and said: "O my Lord! Whom will You set against them?" He said: "The worshippers of fire who do not fear My punishment, nor expect My reward. Stand up Jeremiah, and hear the
news about Israel. Before I chose you, I had made you and favored you and honored you. Go with the king and guide and protect him." (He was with the king while he was receiving revelation from Allah, and they forgot how Allah saved them.) "Go and tell them what I have told you." "O Allah! I am weak and if You do not strengthen me." "Do you not know that all affairs are controlled by Me? I am Allah without semblance, or any like Me. I spoke to the oceans so; I am with you, and nothing shall harm you. Go to your people and tell them: Allah has remembered you, with His remembrance of our forefathers' good deeds. The animals remember their countries and return to them. But those people of yours are drenched in destruction and damnation, for they have forgotten the purpose of My generosity to their forefathers and have misplaced My favors. The scholars and priests have gone astray and have worshipped another god besides Me. "As for their kings and princes, they have been
lavished with My bounty and though themse lves safe from My fate. They abandon My Book and kill My prophets. Is it possible for Me to have a partner? Is it possible for Me to make a creature to be worshipped and to be obeyed besides Me? As for their reciters and jurists, they teach and learn what they like. As for the children of the prophets, they are oppressed and seduced and go with the crowd. They want the positions of their fathers without the discipline, patience, piety, and kindness of their fathers.

"By my power, I swear, that I shall send woe upon them that no wise man can understand. I shall replace their luxury with ordeal, chains, and fetters and after dwelling in palaces, they will dwell in dust. I will disgrace and degrade their womenfolk. I create My creatures and slaves with mercy and bounty. If they accept and recognize it, I complete My favors and mercy. When I change My mind, I change My mind; and if I change, I am angry; and if I am angry, I punish, and nothing prospers with My anger."

According to Ka'b, Jeremiah said: "By your grace I have come to learn before You; how is it possible when I am weak and powerless, to speak before You? But by Your mercy You have spared me to this day. None fears this punishment more than I do, because I have been among them while they disobeyed You, yet without it changing me. If You punish me, I deserve it, and if You spare me, I expect it of Your kindness. O Lord, You are Overlord! Are you going to destroy their country when it is the place of Your prophets the place of Your revelations? O Lord the Exalted and Blessed by Your Name! For You to destroy this mosque and all pertaining to it, and those houses which landed Your praise! O Lord, for You to kill these people and punish them, when they are the issue of Abraham Your faithful friend and David Your chosen one! O lord, which village will escape Your punishment then? Which worshipper will escape Your vengeance after the children of Your faithful friend Abraham?"

He on High said: "He who disobeys Me will not detest My punishment. I had honored them because they obeyed Me. If they disobeyed me I will place them among the disobedient, until I rescue them out of My Mercy."
Jeremiah said: "O Lord, You made friends with Abraham and for his sake You preserved us; and Moses You did save; and he asked You to save us and not abandon us, nor throw us to the enemy." And so Allah revealed to him: "O Jeremiah, I made you honored in your mother's womb and have chosen you to this day. If your people had protected the orphans, the widows, the helpless, and the stranded, I would have been their Sustainer. They would have been like a blissful garden to Me; but I complain of the children of Israel to you. I have been the kind shepherd to them; but I honor only those who honor and despise those who despise My command. Those before them feared Me, but these people displayed their obedience of Me in the temple, market place, hill and mountain tops, and under the shade of trees until the heavens wondered at them before Me, and the earth and the mountains, including the beasts, wondered and wailed. All that had no effect on them; nor was the Book useful to
them."

Ka'b said that when Jeremiah delivered the message of his Lord, and the people heard the threats and warnings in it, they said: "You are lying, if you are saying that Allah shall destroy the land, His temple, His Book, His worship, and monotheism." They captured Jeremiah, tied him up and imprisoned him. At this, Allah sent Nabuchadnezzar upon them. He entered the country with his troops and surrounded the city. When the siege was prolonged they surrendered to his rule. They opened the gates and Nabuchadnezzar' s troops streamed in.

He ruled them savagely and punished them cruelly. He killed a third of them, captured a third, and spared the lame and the old; then h trampled upon them with the horses, demolished their houses, drew the youth along, and stood the women in the market places as guards. He intimidated the troops and destroyed the castles and temples. He burned the Torah. He asked about Daniel, the prophet who had written to him, but he was dead. His family took out the letter which he had written to him. Among the family members were Daniel the youngest son of Ezekiel, Azariah, and Mishael. He left that letter for them. The younger Daniel succeeded the elder Daniel. Nabuchadnezzar entered Jerusalem with his troops, then marched to Syria. He killed the children of Israel until he almost exterminated them. He returned to Babylon with booty in the form of treasure and men, among them young princes and children of priests numbering seventy thousand.
Ibn Ishaaq Ibn Bishr reported that Wahb bin Munbah stated that after Nabuchadnezzar had destroyed Jerusalem, he was told that the Israelites had a man who used to predict what had befallen them, describing the king and his actions, foretelling that he would slay their warriors, capture their children, destroy the temple, and burn their Torah. They had said he was lying, and so they had tied him and kept him in prison. Nabuchadnezzar ordered that he be brought out from prison. Jeremiah was released and the king said to him: "Did you warn those people against what has happened to them?" Jeremiah affirmed it and the king said: "I knew that." Jeremiah stated: "Allah sent me to them and they accused me of lying." He asked: "Did they beat you and imprison you?" He replied: "Yes." The king said: "What a wicked race, to deny their prophet and their Lord's message! So would you like to join me, for me to honor you and make you free? And if you want to remain in your country, I
grant you that." Jeremiah replied: "I am still in the security of Allah when I did not go away from the country at all. If the Israelites did not go out of it, they would not fear you, nor any other, nor would you have authority over them." When Nabuchadnezzar heard this, he let him alone, and so Jeremiah went to live in his place in Elia (Elat).

According to Hisham Ibn al-Kalbi, Nabuchadnezzar marched on Jerusalem, its king who was a descendant of David, who had built Jerusalem for the Israelites - made peace with him. Nabuchadnezzar took hostages and departed. When he had gone as far as Thahria, he learned that the Israelites had risen against their king and killed him because he had made peace with him. So, Nabuchadnezzar beheaded all the hostages that were with him. He returned to the Israelites and invaded the city, killing the warriors and capturing their families.

When he had found Jeremiah in prison and released him, Jeremiah told him his story and his warnings concerning him. Nabuchadnezzar said: "What a wicked people, that disobey the prophet of Allah!" He set him free and honored him. Jeremiah gathered around him the remaining weak souls of Israel. He said to them: "Woe to us! We have disobeyed Allah. We must repent to Allah, Great and Majestic, for what we have done, and I shall pray to Allah to accept our repentance." He prayed so, and Allah revealed to him that He would not accept it: "If they are sincere, they must stay with you in this country (or town)." He told them what Allah had revealed. They said: "How can we stay in this town when it has been devastated and Allah is angry with its people?" So they refused to stay.
Ibn al-Kalbi said that since that time, the children of Israel were dispersed the world over. Some of them went to the Hijaz, Taif and Medina, and others settled in Wadi al Qura. Some went to Egypt, and Nabuchadnezzar wrote to its king, demanding those who had escaped thither, but he refused. So Nabuchadnezzar mounted his army and fought him. He defeated him and captured their children. Then he marched to the extreme of Morocco. He returned from Morocco, Egypt, Jerusalem, Palestine, and Jordan with many captives, and among them was Daniel.

Ibn al-Kalbi said that it appears that it was Daniel, the youngest son of Ezekiel, and not the elder Daniel, according to Ibn Munbah. Allah knows best.

Al-Tirmidhi HadithHadith 42 -Narrated byAl-Miqdad- Al-Miqdad heard Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) as saying: There will not remain upon the surface of the earth a mud-brick house or a camel's-hair tent but Allah will instill into it the word of Islam, bringing both mighty honour and abject humiliation. Allah will either honour them by making them worthy of it and those whom He humiliates shall have to render submission to it. I said: The religion will then be entirely for Allah.Transmitted by Ahmad.

http://www.alkhilaf ah.net The Caliphate-Time To Learn ,Teach & Inshallah PRACTISE

Establish Allah's Handiwork 30:30 Al Quran
http://muslimslibra ry.googlepages. com Allah knows best..

Surah Isra 17 verse 80 Say: "O my Lord! let my entry be by the Gate of Truth and Honor and likewise my exit by the Gate of Truth and Honor; and grant me from Thy Presence an authority to aid (me)."
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
The words in the Book of Jeremiah said to have been spoken by Jeremiah such as , '"O Lord! Would that my mother had not borne me' among others do not seem scripturally correct as Prophets do not question Allah's Decree and say anything against Qadar, even in a jovial and joking manner.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
We are expected to learn a life lesson from every Prophet. So what is it we learn from Jeremiah? A Prophet who at first appears to wish he had never been born, or that YHWH chose him as a prophet.. I hope this article goes some way to explain what we .. As Christians are meant to understand.
Jeremiah the prophet lived in the final days of the crumbling nation of Israel. He was, appropriately, the last prophet that God sent to preach to the southern kingdom, which comprised the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. God had repeatedly warned Israel to stop their idolatrous behavior, but they would not listen, so He tore the 12 tribes asunder, sending the 10 northern tribes into captivity at the hands of the Assyrians. Then God sent Jeremiah to give Judah the last warning before He cast them out of the land, decimating the nation and sending them into captivity in the pagan kingdom of Babylon. Jeremiah, a faithful, God-fearing man, was called to tell Israel that, because of their unrepentant sin, their God had turned against them and was now prepared to remove them from the land at the hands of a pagan king whom He called “My servant” (Jeremiah 26:7).

No doubt Jeremiah, who was only about 17 when God called him, had great inner turmoil over the fate of his people, and he begged them to listen. He is known as “the weeping prophet,” because he cried tears of sadness, not only because he knew what was about to happen, but because no matter how hard he tried, the people would not listen. Furthermore, he found no human comfort. God had forbidden him to marry or have children (Jeremiah 16:2), and his friends had turned their backs on him. So, along with the burden of the knowledge of impending judgment, he also must have felt very lonely. God knew that this was the best course for Jeremiah, because He went on to tell him how horrible conditions would be in a short time, with babies, children, and adults dying “grievous” deaths, their bodies unable to even be buried, and their flesh devoured by the birds (Jeremiah 16:3-4).

Obviously, the people of Israel had become so hardened by the numbing effects of sin that they no longer believed God, nor did they fear Him. Jeremiah preached for 40 years, and not once did he see any real success in changing or softening the hearts and minds of his stubborn, idolatrous people. The other prophets of Israel had witnessed some successes, at least for a little while, but not Jeremiah. He was speaking to a brick wall; however, his words were not wasted. They were pearls being cast before swine, in a sense, and they were convicting every person who heard them and refused to heed the warning.

Jeremiah tried to make the people understand their problem was a lack of belief, trust, and faith in God, along with an absence of fear which caused them to take Him for granted. It is very easy to be lulled into a false sense of security, especially when the focus is not on God. The nation of Israel, just like many nations today, had stopped putting God first, and had replaced Him with false gods, those that would not make them feel guilty or convict them of sin. God had delivered His people from bondage in Egypt, had performed miracles before them, and had even parted the waters of the sea for them. In spite of all these displays of God’s power, they returned to the false practices they had learned in Egypt, even making vows to the false “queen of heaven,” along with performing the other rites and rituals that were part of the Egyptian culture and religion. God finally turned them over to their idolatry, saying, “Go ahead then, do what you promised! Keep your vows!” (Jeremiah 44:25).

Jeremiah’s constant loneliness and isolation finally got the best of him, and he became discouraged. He sank into a quagmire where many believers seem to get stuck when they think their efforts are not making a difference and time is ticking away. Jeremiah was emotionally spent, even to the point of doubting God (Jeremiah 15:18), but God was not done with him. Jeremiah 15:19records a lesson for each believer to remember in those times when he feels alone, useless, and discouraged and whose faith is wavering: “Therefore this is what the LORD says: ‘If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me; if you utter worthy, not worthless, words, you will be my spokesman. Let this people turn to you, but you must not turn to them.’” God was saying to Jeremiah, come back to Me, and I will restore to you the joy of your salvation. These are similar to the words penned by David when he repented of his sin with Bathsheba (Psalm 51:12).

What we learn from the life of Jeremiah is the comfort of knowing that, just like every believer, even great prophets of God can experience rejection, depression, and discouragement in their walk with the Lord. This is a normal part of growing spiritually, because our sinful nature fights against our new nature, that which is born of the Spirit of God, according to Galatians 5:17: “For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.” But just as Jeremiah found, we can know that the faithfulness of our God is infinite; even when we are unfaithful to Him, He remains steadfast (2 Timothy 2:13).

Jeremiah was given the task of delivering an unpopular, convicting message to Israel, one that caused him great mental anguish, as well as making him despised in the eyes of his people. God says that His truth sounds like “foolishness” to those who are lost, but to believers it is the very words of life (1 Corinthians 1:18). He also says that the time will come when people will not tolerate the truth (2 Timothy 4:3-4). Those in Israel in Jeremiah’s day did not want to hear what he had to say, and his constant warning of judgment annoyed them. This is true of the world today, as believers who are following God’s instructions are warning the lost and dying world of impending judgment (Revelation 3:10). Even though most are not listening, we must persevere in proclaiming truth in order to rescue some from the terrible judgment that will inevitably come.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/life-Jeremiah.html#ixzz3FPLz9pT9

peace and blessings
 

Cariad

Junior Member
The words in the Book of Jeremiah said to have been spoken by Jeremiah such as , '"O Lord! Would that my mother had not borne me' among others do not seem scripturally correct as Prophets do not question Allah's Decree and say anything against Qadar, even in a jovial and joking manner.

Prophets above all are human, and so like all humans at difficult times in may doubt in their abilities to see a difficult task through to its end. It's when such doubts enter their mind they are strengthened by the Spirit of God. Maybe it is Gods way of showing to trust in Him and have absolute faith that God will provide is the only way to go. Because we see ... Not just from Jeremiahs story but also others... that when one does put ones faith and trust in God alone then God provides.

Peace and blessings
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
Prophets above all are human, and so like all humans at difficult times in may doubt in their abilities to see a difficult task through to its end. It's when such doubts enter their mind they are strengthened by the Spirit of God. Maybe it is Gods way of showing to trust in Him and have absolute faith that God will provide is the only way to go. Because we see ... Not just from Jeremiahs story but also others... that when one does put ones faith and trust in God alone then God provides.

Peace and blessings

Thank you Sister Cariad for your post. I was, as you will know by now, speaking from an Islamic viewpoint which accepts the Prophets as human and with human characteristics, but accords them greater willpower, superior intellect and wisdom and forbearance than both Judaism and Christianity combined, as clearly demonstrated in the Bible in comparison to the Qur'an. As human beings, self doubt is possible within a Prophet's mind, but doubt in any form whatsoever in the Creator is not. I repeat, if they are truly Prophets than that is not possible, unless God Himself is at fault for selecting the wrong people for the role of Prophet and not protecting them when He should have done so in the first place. As you can see that belief is itself inconsistent with the role, responsibilities and intellect of God Himself.

Since we do not believe in the definition and power of 'Holy Spirit' in the same sense you do, I will leave it at that.

Finally, Islamically, as I have spoken of before, rejects all stories, episodes and circumstances in the life of a Prophet which show them to be the kind of person/people the Bible makes them out to be.

By saying the above, I am not trying to convince you of anything, only that this is what Islam teaches us. When I wrote my post I was actually 'preaching to the converted' so to speak, and did not have Non Muslim readers in mind, so I apologise for any misgivings on my part.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Thank you Sister Cariad for your post. I was, as you will know by now, speaking from an Islamic viewpoint which accepts the Prophets as human and with human characteristics, but accords them greater willpower, superior intellect and wisdom and forbearance than both Judaism and Christianity combined, as clearly demonstrated in the Bible in comparison to the Qur'an. As human beings, self doubt is possible within a Prophet's mind, but doubt in any form whatsoever in the Creator is not. I repeat, if they are truly Prophets than that is not possible, unless God Himself is at fault for selecting the wrong people for the role of Prophet and not protecting them when He should have done so in the first place. As you can see that belief is itself inconsistent with the role, responsibilities and intellect of God Himself.

It was not my intention to be disagreeable..well, not for impoliteness sake :) I agree we do see prophets differently. I simply wished to say something of how Jeremiah and what his prophecy concerned... From a biblical perspective. ;)
I'm sure I have mentioned before why I find it difficult to accept islam view of prophets being somehow better people and being such were chosen by Allah as prophets. As the previous scriptures give the view that it was reason of being chosen by God for His divine purpose that made them "special". As we do not know why God chooses any one person above another we cannot judge their worth.
Every person at some point in their life can have a crisis of faith, very often I believe some people put to much emphasis on what God can do for them.. Like answering their prayers... Seeking to blame God when bad things happen in their lives. I see that it's at these hard times that God is there the strongest, and if we just out our trust in Him all will be well.. Not necessarily that prayers are answered or things get better.. Although that also happens sometimes.. But more that God gives one the strength to deal with whatever has made us momentarily weak.. God is always there when we need Him most, we just have to have faith to acknowledge that fact.

Since we do not believe in the definition and power of 'Holy Spirit' in the same sense you do, I will leave it at that.

The Power of the Holy Spirit is the Power of God. The Spirit brings understanding of what is spiritually discerned. Without it I believe we would be in a spiritual void. But that's for me.... :) I accept you do not have the spirit.

Finally, Islamically, as I have spoken of before, rejects all stories, episodes and circumstances in the life of a Prophet which show them to be the kind of person/people the Bible makes them out to be.

You mean you reject the Prophets being shown as.... Human. Which they were.. Just like us. :)

By saying the above, I am not trying to convince you of anything, only that this is what Islam teaches us. When I wrote my post I was actually 'preaching to the converted' so to speak, and did not have Non Muslim readers in mind, so I apologise for any misgivings on my part.

There is no need for apologies, I value the diversity of different opinions on similar events or persons. I hope it was not considered to be rude of me to share Jeremiah from the Christian perspective.

Peace and blessings
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
It was not my intention to be disagreeable..well, not for impoliteness sake :) I agree we do see prophets differently. I simply wished to say something of how Jeremiah and what his prophecy concerned... From a biblical perspective. ;)
I'm sure I have mentioned before why I find it difficult to accept islam view of prophets being somehow better people and being such were chosen by Allah as prophets. As the previous scriptures give the view that it was reason of being chosen by God for His divine purpose that made them "special". As we do not know why God chooses any one person above another we cannot judge their worth.
Every person at some point in their life can have a crisis of faith, very often I believe some people put to much emphasis on what God can do for them.. Like answering their prayers... Seeking to blame God when bad things happen in their lives. I see that it's at these hard times that God is there the strongest, and if we just out our trust in Him all will be well.. Not necessarily that prayers are answered or things get better.. Although that also happens sometimes.. But more that God gives one the strength to deal with whatever has made us momentarily weak.. God is always there when we need Him most, we just have to have faith to acknowledge that fact.



The Power of the Holy Spirit is the Power of God. The Spirit brings understanding of what is spiritually discerned. Without it I believe we would be in a spiritual void. But that's for me.... :) I accept you do not have the spirit.



You mean you reject the Prophets being shown as.... Human. Which they were.. Just like us. :)



There is no need for apologies, I value the diversity of different opinions on similar events or persons. I hope it was not considered to be rude of me to share Jeremiah from the Christian perspective.

Peace and blessings

Peace and Blessings be upon you Sister Cariad. Thank you for your remarks. I also do not mean to be disagreeable, I also shared what I believe as a Muslim and what I accept as true just as you believe what you profess to be true.

I also agree everyone can and do have moments of crisis, but we differ on how Prophets are able to deal with them. We both see them as human, you are mistaken in the belief I don't. I simply accept what my religion tells me just as you accept the Bible and Christianity. My religion tells me Allah has given them Divine Protection not to commit major sins, they do not have if I can put it 'nervous breakdowns' where they start blaming Allah for their misfortune, they do not commit adultery because they recognise how evil it is in the eyes of Allah (that is if you accept David as a Prophet in Christianity), they do not become disbelievers and start worshipping other gods especially idols just because their wives do (if you accept Solomon as a Prophet in Christianity). That is a small list of the kind of things we do not accept in Islam. You are welcome to disagree. I was merely making the distinction. I agree God listens to our prayers and " that God gives one the strength to deal with whatever has made us momentarily weak.. God is always there when we need Him most, we just have to have faith to acknowledge that fact.". I will add to this that since the trust Prophets have in God is greater than ours, their prayers are listened to more and logically He assists them more as well, hence they have no reason to be despondent, to feel dejected and say the things the Bible says they did or act that way, especially as they were stronger than us in religion and personal resilience. On this point, we differ. They were still human by being so, but not so weak to start slandering God even in weakness.

In respect to the Holy Spirit. I said earlier, we have different understandings of its concept, meaning and interpretation, so I would rather leave it that. If by saying that, I have inferred to you I do not have it; fine. It is not as important to me as it seems to be with yourself. If however, by spirit you mean I do not have 'guidance' in the form of Christianity, then equally so I am glad, I don't want it.

We have something else, which you don't have, Taqwa; a closeness to the Creator by adhering to a spiritual constitution without the need of a crucified saviour to save us from sin. We don't believe Adam sinned so we are not in need of salvation that way. We also see him as a Prophet and hence we recognise just as it is unjust for a mother or father's sin to be passed on to his/her offspring, it is even more so if something such as the eating of an apple by a Prophet would mean the crucifixion of another man to alter it more than two thousand years later.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Dear Abu Juwairiya, I do agree with most of what you say in as much we have different opinions of our respective faiths. There are a great many reasons why to me the Bibles view of the Prophets is both truth and an accurate portrayal. I see no point in elaborating any further and at times it is better to respectfully agree to disagree. I would just say God knows we are sinners... Weather prophet or not but still loves us anyway.

I would like to just raise a point with the last section of your post in regards to Adam...

We have something else, which you don't have, Taqwa; a closeness to the Creator by adhering to a spiritual constitution without the need of a crucified saviour to save us from sin. We don't believe Adam sinned so we are not in need of salvation that way. We also see him as a Prophet and hence we recognise just as it is unjust for a mother or father's sin to be passed on to his/her offspring, it is even more so if something such as the eating of an apple by a Prophet would mean the crucifixion of another man to alter it more than two thousand years later.

I don't understand when you say you believe Adam did not sin. The Quran and the Bible are very similar in account on this point. What do you think Adam did to be expelled from the garden if not sin? Of course if this is so and according to Islam Adam did not sin then there was no need of a saviour in the Messiah.. The Bible teaches that Yeshua was the Messiah and the last Adam. The Quran accepts Yeshua as Messiah.. Yet the Jews did not.. Why does the Quran confirm Yeshua as Messiah yet deny the reason He was sent. This makes no sense to me. Sorry to say but it does not.

Also the Bible does not say we inherit Adams sin.. How can we be responsible for the sin of another.. That does not make sense either! We inherit a propensity to sin, that is a sin nature.. Where is the proof of this fact? Why the state of mankind of course, for there is not one of us who does not possess a sin nature, that is the ability to sin. On another point, the eating of the apple.. Or to be precise eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge... (The Bible never said it was an apple) was not the sin which condemned Adam and thus mankind.. It was disobedience against God. Which is what every sin at its base level comes down to.. Disobedience against God. I can think of nothing graver. We can only be saved by God, and it can only be on the terms He sets. We can do nothing to save ourselves or in anyway mitigate the sins we commit. In other words we cannot be saved by our good deeds our good deeds are simply a reflection of our love for the Creator.. We expect nothing back in return.

God decreed we needed a Saviour, God provided that Saviour in Yeshua. The Biblical prophets taught this either by words or actions their prophecies foreshadowed the coming of the Messiah who was to save the world. Yeshua was never just another Prophet as you believe, Yeshua is your Saviour weather you recognise that or not.. You just don't want Him... And that is fine as He never forced His message on anyone. I choose to accept Him. :)

I wish you well on your chosen path.

Peace and blessings
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
Dear Abu Juwairiya, I do agree with most of what you say in as much we have different opinions of our respective faiths. There are a great many reasons why to me the Bibles view of the Prophets is both truth and an accurate portrayal. I see no point in elaborating any further and at times it is better to respectfully agree to disagree. I would just say God knows we are sinners... Weather prophet or not but still loves us anyway.

I would like to just raise a point with the last section of your post in regards to Adam...



I don't understand when you say you believe Adam did not sin. The Quran and the Bible are very similar in account on this point. What do you think Adam did to be expelled from the garden if not sin? Of course if this is so and according to Islam Adam did not sin then there was no need of a saviour in the Messiah.. The Bible teaches that Yeshua was the Messiah and the last Adam. The Quran accepts Yeshua as Messiah.. Yet the Jews did not.. Why does the Quran confirm Yeshua as Messiah yet deny the reason He was sent. This makes no sense to me. Sorry to say but it does not.

Also the Bible does not say we inherit Adams sin.. How can we be responsible for the sin of another.. That does not make sense either! We inherit a propensity to sin, that is a sin nature.. Where is the proof of this fact? Why the state of mankind of course, for there is not one of us who does not possess a sin nature, that is the ability to sin. On another point, the eating of the apple.. Or to be precise eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge... (The Bible never said it was an apple) was not the sin which condemned Adam and thus mankind.. It was disobedience against God. Which is what every sin at its base level comes down to.. Disobedience against God. I can think of nothing graver. We can only be saved by God, and it can only be on the terms He sets. We can do nothing to save ourselves or in anyway mitigate the sins we commit. In other words we cannot be saved by our good deeds our good deeds are simply a reflection of our love for the Creator.. We expect nothing back in return.

God decreed we needed a Saviour, God provided that Saviour in Yeshua. The Biblical prophets taught this either by words or actions their prophecies foreshadowed the coming of the Messiah who was to save the world. Yeshua was never just another Prophet as you believe, Yeshua is your Saviour weather you recognise that or not.. You just don't want Him... And that is fine as He never forced His message on anyone. I choose to accept Him. :)

I wish you well on your chosen path.

Peace and blessings

Peace and Blessings Sister Cariad. First le me begin by saying it is better if we agree to disagree on the special nature and status of Prophets. Muslims believe they were awarded them, Christianity and Judaism do not.

Second, If we accepted that Jesus was sent to save us from Sin, why then are we not Christians. We accept Jesus as the Messiah, but we differ on several points concerning his mission and status. You see him as the saviour, we do not. We see him as a Prophet, but not the Prophet, the best of the human race or the best Prophet and greatest representative of God. We also don't accept he will return with the same mission and ministry you believe in. He will not appear with the teachings and salvation Paul ascribed to him. As you may be aware, we believe Paul to be a liar, a confidence man and a religious fraud with an agenda of his own.

We also argue the law and teachings of Jesus were abrogated by the Prophethood of Muhammad. That is easy to understand. Otherwise we would also be Christians. So what do we believe in Jesus. Before I tell you, I want you to remember you need to be aware of this so you are sure where we the exact point of difference lies and where we share common ground.

Jesus is the Messiah, but it is a title and a privilege to him from Allah, other Prophets have held other names and stature specific to themselves and for their times, if Jesus was not to return, his title's significance may not have been so popular in the imagination of people after him, meaning yourselves. Hence this title is not as prized in Islam as it is in Christianity and Judaism because we know and recognise why he will be sent a second time and what he will achieve. As you know many have held the title of Messiah before him and at least one more will hold it with him; that person being the Antichrist who will call people to accept him as the Messiah. He is accorded the name; Al Masih Ad-Dajjal, meaning the False Messiah, but a Messiah nonetheless.

On the point of Adam's 'sin'. Islam does not say he sinned and unlike Christianity and Judaism, Islam says god forgave him after both he and his wife repented with sincerity and that is where it ended. Hence as you can see if that was the primary or only reason why Christianity and Judaism state the Messiah was sent, then I am sorry to say it was deemed not necessary by the One who sent him, meaning God himself. As good and evil did not exist then, it is inconceivable to speak of it before its inception, that does not make the action right, but it does not result in strong condemnation either. As for being expelled from the Garden, that is again your belief, not ours. The human race was to be sent here anyway. The actions of our first parents did not alter that fact.

As to the 'propensity to sin, that is a sin nature..' the Qur'an teaches us in the speech of Moses to the Pharaoh, 'Our Lord is He Who gave to each thing its form and nature and guided it aright' (Surah 20: 50). The meaning of the above is that the knowledge of good and evil is known to all creation, and He guides all in ways known only to him for the rest of creation, not just the human race. The difference is that the human race needed reminders in the form of Prophets because of their special creation and special responsibility. In that respect, sin or evil was not 'created' separately or distinct as it were. Islam has more to say about the Devil than both Christianity and Judaism, so we have more to add about how sin began and how it has increased through him since his own expulsion from Allah's Mercy.

On the point of redemption, I agree we cannot be saved by good deeds alone, that is why Allah sent Prophets in the first place culminating in the form and presence of Muhammad who came after Jesus, as such our saviour is not Jesus. We do not however see, portray or call the Prophet Muhammad as 'saviour' nor do we ascribe to him the kind of characteristics you give to Jesus.

Allah informs us the Prophet Muhammad is the seal of the Messengers, a title higher than Prophet and being so is the Master of the Messengers, one of whom is Jesus, so it is logical to say even if you didn't know by now that Islam gives the greatest prominence and elevation to him above all Prophets, all lawgivers, all apostles and all pious people from Adam to the last day. unlike Jesus he does not have to be in our presence, for us to believe in him, he does not need to return like Jesus will (that is a different story altogether) and as a mortal being, he has no share in divinity or the destruction of the world.

The Prophet Muhammad has left behind two things as his legacy; enabling a non necessity for him to remain on the earth. They are his Sunnah [teachings, sayings, practices, recommendations et al] and the Qur'an, which is the last testament of Allah, superseding all previous scriptures, constitutions and teachings of everyone; irrespective of their being the Messiah, Prophets, lawgivers, or otherwise.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Dear Abu Juwairiya, I confess there is much in your post that troubles me, and will have to read further on certain aspects you have raised in regards to Adam, Sin etc. I was under the impression that the Quran agreed that Adam was in disobedience to God in eating of the tree forbidden to him. So why is this not sin? Then you say God went on to forgive Adam and Eve after they repented.. What was God forgiving them for if not their sin of disobedience?? I'm sorry but disobedience to God is indeed the gravest sin, and that you feel God could simply just brush it aside so lightly worries me. Then just send them off to live their lives, free of the consequences of their "sin". Yet we see from the very state of mankinds existence that this cannot be so and the consequence of every sin is very real. Sure, we can be repentant of a sin we commit. We can even forgive a person who sins against our person but that forgiveness does not negate the consequences of that sin. How are these eternal consequences dealt with in Islam? As ultimately these fall at the feet of our creator.. Does Allah simply ignore them? Thereby acting contrary to His divine nature of being just. Or does Allah apply a penalty so one is justified?

Kindest regards
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
Dear Sister Cariad, I think you should be prepared to accept that your understanding of scripture, of morality, of divine law, of Allah, of how events transpire and what is right and wrong is not the only interpretation. How we view matter, people, circumstances and events depends on our original perspectives. That is one reason why we have difficulty sometimes accepting how another person, groups, community and in this instance religions view the same issues with entirely separate lenses.

First, in respect to Allah. I believe you are sincere in what you think and how you approach religious matters. I can safely assume you share my opinion He is above everyone and everything. He is above reproach, condemnation, defamation and whereas we can be questioned and be held accountable for our actions, He cannot. Therefore when He says, infers, commands, acts and behaves it is not for us to judge, but to listen and obey.

That said, however it does not mean He can be, will be and is anything but the most excellent in everything righteous and good. In this way, He is the Most Just, the Most Generous, the Most Kind, the Most Holy and the Most Merciful. However, the manner in which He exercises His Authority is His Own Style and we have no share in deciding if we like it or not. That is not befitting His Kingship.

As the Qur'an says in several places, He only says 'Be' and it is. No one can or should say why He says or does something and it is His Prerogative if we should be informed of it. He informs of some things and does not of other things. In time, when the circumstances are right, He may reveal more.

Second, in relation to the Forgiving of Sin. I can agree Adam and Eve disobeyed Allah, but it was not at the time regarded as sin, that is a major difference between ourselves. You put a greater emphasis on this than is necessary. To Muslims, the fact that Adam and Eve recognised it was an error on their part and repented with obedience, is sufficient for us to accept since Allah tells us. We hear and We Obey, it is as simple as that. Sin did not exist at the time, there were no rules or regulation, no law, no scripture, no accurate measurement of criterion to judge what is right or wrong. Disobedience was not necessarily a sin at the time, just as disobeying your parents when you don't know why something has been forbidden to you, is not always either.

To illustrate how Islam and Christianity are so different in what are seen as grave sins, just look at how the crucifixion of Jesus enables the Old Testament case law to disappear after centuries of being championed as the way to salvation.

To Muslims, alcohol, gambling, the use of music, magic and superstitions are among the greatest vices of all time, in your religion and to many practicing Christians they are not held in the same manner. The greatest sin in Islam however is Shirk; to associate anyone or anything along with Allah for the purposes of worship and divinity.

This is where we draw the line with you as our permanent boundary and neither of us is prepared to waver. In Islam, it is not possible for Allah to have a wife, siblings, parents, uncles et al or as you may have guessed by now to have a child.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Dear Sister Cariad, I think you should be prepared to accept that your understanding of scripture, of morality, of divine law, of Allah, of how events transpire and what is right and wrong is not the only interpretation. How we view matter, people, circumstances and events depends on our original perspectives. That is one reason why we have difficulty sometimes accepting how another person, groups, community and in this instance religions view the same issues with entirely separate lenses.

First, in respect to Allah. I believe you are sincere in what you think and how you approach religious matters. I can safely assume you share my opinion He is above everyone and everything. He is above reproach, condemnation, defamation and whereas we can be questioned and be held accountable for our actions, He cannot. Therefore when He says, infers, commands, acts and behaves it is not for us to judge, but to listen and obey.

That said, however it does not mean He can be, will be and is anything but the most excellent in everything righteous and good. In this way, He is the Most Just, the Most Generous, the Most Kind, the Most Holy and the Most Merciful. However, the manner in which He exercises His Authority is His Own Style and we have no share in deciding if we like it or not. That is not befitting His Kingship.

As the Qur'an says in several places, He only says 'Be' and it is. No one can or should say why He says or does something and it is His Prerogative if we should be informed of it. He informs of some things and does not of other things. In time, when the circumstances are right, He may reveal more.

Second, in relation to the Forgiving of Sin. I can agree Adam and Eve disobeyed Allah, but it was not at the time regarded as sin, that is a major difference between ourselves. You put a greater emphasis on this than is necessary. To Muslims, the fact that Adam and Eve recognised it was an error on their part and repented with obedience, is sufficient for us to accept since Allah tells us. We hear and We Obey, it is as simple as that. Sin did not exist at the time, there were no rules or regulation, no law, no scripture, no accurate measurement of criterion to judge what is right or wrong. Disobedience was not necessarily a sin at the time, just as disobeying your parents when you don't know why something has been forbidden to you, is not always either.

To illustrate how Islam and Christianity are so different in what are seen as grave sins, just look at how the crucifixion of Jesus enables the Old Testament case law to disappear after centuries of being championed as the way to salvation.

To Muslims, alcohol, gambling, the use of music, magic and superstitions are among the greatest vices of all time, in your religion and to many practicing Christians they are not held in the same manner. The greatest sin in Islam however is Shirk; to associate anyone or anything along with Allah for the purposes of worship and divinity.

This is where we draw the line with you as our permanent boundary and neither of us is prepared to waver. In Islam, it is not possible for Allah to have a wife, siblings, parents, uncles et al or as you may have guessed by now to have a child.
Agreed it is not possible or necessary for God to have a child.. To believe that is blasphemy. Christians have never believed such a thing and to hear you, who I have every reason to believe to be an educated man of good intentions... It fair breaks my heart.

It's surely for God to decide what was the first sin against Him.. To say there were no rules to be broken, or laws to adhere to does not make sense. God clearly told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree, God gave them everything in the garden the one and only demand was they did not eat of the tree.. That is Gods rule, Gods decree and Gods law.. They disobeyed. They sinned.

The law of the OT was never a means to everlasting salvation, mankind could not be saved by the law alone because we are imperfect and cannot follow it perfectly. That's why YHWH a demanded blood atonement for the covering of sin, God Himself instigated the first such atonement for Adam and Eve by providing them garments of skins.. For which an animal had to die. If you confuse "errors" for sin then you are selling yourselves short. God is perfect on that we can agree, God is greatest on that we can agree, God is merciful again we agree. God is the Holiest of Holies on that we most certainly agree. Anything we do that does not live up to Gods standard of goodness draws a veil between us.. When we sin we cut ourselves off from that standard. No mistake or error. It's very simple. The greatest attribute of God in Christianity is Love, it foreshadows everything that is of God. We were created in love, we are judged through love and Gods mercy is tempered by His love for us His creation. I do not find that in Islam.
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
Agreed it is not possible or necessary for God to have a child.. To believe that is blasphemy. Christians have never believed such a thing and to hear you, who I have every reason to believe to be an educated man of good intentions... It fair breaks my heart.

It's surely for God to decide what was the first sin against Him.. To say there were no rules to be broken, or laws to adhere to does not make sense. God clearly told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree, God gave them everything in the garden the one and only demand was they did not eat of the tree.. That is Gods rule, Gods decree and Gods law.. They disobeyed. They sinned.

The law of the OT was never a means to everlasting salvation, mankind could not be saved by the law alone because we are imperfect and cannot follow it perfectly. That's why YHWH a demanded blood atonement for the covering of sin, God Himself instigated the first such atonement for Adam and Eve by providing them garments of skins.. For which an animal had to die. If you confuse "errors" for sin then you are selling yourselves short. God is perfect on that we can agree, God is greatest on that we can agree, God is merciful again we agree. God is the Holiest of Holies on that we most certainly agree. Anything we do that does not live up to Gods standard of goodness draws a veil between us.. When we sin we cut ourselves off from that standard. No mistake or error. It's very simple. The greatest attribute of God in Christianity is Love, it foreshadows everything that is of God. We were created in love, we are judged through love and Gods mercy is tempered by His love for us His creation. I do not find that in Islam.

Sister Cariad, I wish to apologise if I have made errors in what I believed Christianity to profess. It was my understanding Jesus is regarded as the Son of God in your religion, that is why I mentioned it. If you personally do not believe it then I am sorry to have brought it up.

Second, about your quotation, 'It's surely for God to decide what was the first sin against Him'. You can be deemed guilty for deciding that for Him. Your religion says it was a sin, our religion does not. Hence it is not for us to decide and since we both say we have received this from Him, then we have to leave it at that, a theological difference of opinion.

I think we have to agree to disagree on the concept and origin of sin, what is a sin, what is its atonement and the requisites for eternal salvation. You have demonstrated how important it is to you and your understanding and I have shown you that instead Islam places greater importance on other major sins which many Christians disregard. If you say it does not make sense that the first disobedience cannot have been anything other than sin, that is a Christian and Jewish opinion, not necessarily a logical one.

Islamically it doers not make sense how you can question God on why He can choose to forgive someone if He wants to. No one can force Him to demand an atonement and to say an atonement is necessary, even in common sense, is disrespect to Him. To Muslims, God forgave our parents and we accept what He said. That makes perfect sense to us. It doesn't matter to me or to other Muslims if you insist there must be atonement as a logical choice.

In as far as the termination of Mosaic law is concerned and for it to have a limited lifeline, that is again a matter of debate and I would add the fact that a non prophet (in the form of Paul and revelation to him personally) introduced this is not possible in Islam. Perhaps in a separate post I will say why I believe he is not what he claims and was someone who appeared without sincerity in the first place.

When you say a blood atonement was required, we are imperfect and that OT law was never a means of salvation, I find that a matter of opinion. It is not necessarily logical or the first idea that might appear to groups of thinkers without any loyalty to any religion.

Lastly, your religion emphasizes great importance to love I agree. Islam places the highest importance to justice and obedience to the Creator in the form of His Revelation and Legislation. I think you will find that incorporates love at its most supreme level and puts it into perspective. If you love Allah, you will accept Him and what He asks of you and you will follow Him through His Commandments. If you do so you have shown you truly love Him and He will love you in return. In Islam it is a two way street. It is first up to you to take the initial step after that it is incumbent upon the Creator to accept you as well. That in my opinion is true love. A blood atonement on its own is not sufficient in itself.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Sister Cariad, I wish to apologise if I have made errors in what I believed Christianity to profess. It was my understanding Jesus is regarded as the Son of God in your religion, that is why I mentioned it. If you personally do not believe it then I am sorry to have brought it up.

Brother, I thank you for your gracious apology. I know you did not mean to cause offence. We do refer to Yeshua as Son of God, as that's what Yeshua claimed he was, and that is what God called Him by. This does not mean son in biological terms. Which is always the way muslims see this title is Son. Yeshua had no earthly father, the two involved in His creation were God and the human Mary. On that basis Yeshua is Gods son.. This does not mean it necessitated God in anyway committing an act of procreation with the human Mary. The very thought and writing the words cause me pain as to be so near to blasphemy!

Second, about your quotation, 'It's surely for God to decide what was the first sin against Him'. You can be deemed guilty for deciding that for Him. Your religion says it was a sin, our religion does not. Hence it is not for us to decide and since we both say we have received this from Him, then we have to leave it at that, a theological difference of opinion.

When you say my religion claims Adam sinned against God and yours does not. Is it really that simple? I believe God in the Bible decided Adams disobedience was a sin, this is born out by the proof of the state of mankind today. Why you think disobeying a direct decree from God could be anything other than a sin is beyond me. Like they made a mistake.. Where is the mistake.. Did Adam not hear Gods decree? Did he misunderstand what God meant? Or did he think God was not being serious? Whilst we can understand that next to God, Adam and Eve were like mere children, but even a small child can know when a parent forbids something it means they should not do it...a wilful child may well disobey, but they will know by disobeying they are doing wrong.

I think we have to agree to disagree on the concept and origin of sin, what is a sin, what is its atonement and the requisites for eternal salvation. You have demonstrated how important it is to you and your understanding and I have shown you that instead Islam places greater importance on other major sins which many Christians disregard. If you say it does not make sense that the first disobedience cannot have been anything other than sin, that is a Christian and Jewish opinion, not necessarily a logical one.

Yes, it seems we reach an impasse in regards to how we view sin, it's origin and how we can atone for it. It is of utmost importance to understand not only how we are effected by sin but what effect our sin has on a Holy God. If we don't understand this how can we make amends? We are then in a dangerous position to arrogantly believe we can in some way mitigate the effects of our sin, by doing good. The Bible teaches this is not the way, and our good deeds are nought but a pile of filthy rags before a Holy God. In order to atone we can only meet God on His terms not on our own. The God of the Bible sets the penalty for atonement. It's logical. If we commit a crime in our life we pay a penalty why would God demand any less? The difference being His demand for penalty is tempered by His love and mercy to mankind.
I don't know what you mean by islam places a higher importance on major sins than some christians do.. What do you see as major sins? Yet.. On this point we should also be aware that it is not us who decides what is or is not a major sin.. Or even a minor sin. For God there is just sin. The smallest sin may have less of an impact but it has an impact just the same.

Islamically it doers not make sense how you can question God on why He can choose to forgive someone if He wants to. No one can force Him to demand an atonement and to say an atonement is necessary, even in common sense, is disrespect to Him. To Muslims, God forgave our parents and we accept what He said. That makes perfect sense to us. It doesn't matter to me or to other Muslims if you insist there must be atonement as a logical choice.

We don't ever question God, it's not man who demanded atonement for sin. God decreed that atonement was required for sin. God Himself made the first atonement for Adam and Eve by clothing them in garments of skins, to produce those skins an animal gave its life. The facts of Adam and Eve's situation do not support the belief that God simply forgave them and they freely went on their way. Yes, God did forgive them but they still suffered the consequences of their sin. They were not allowed into the Garden., their time on earth was limited, and they were to toil for survival.. Something they had not needed to do before their fall.. There were other conditions but you get the picture.

In as far as the termination of Mosaic law is concerned and for it to have a limited lifeline, that is again a matter of debate and I would add the fact that a non prophet (in the form of Paul and revelation to him personally) introduced this is not possible in Islam. Perhaps in a separate post I will say why I believe he is not what he claims and was someone who appeared without sincerity in the first place.

It's not about the termination of the Mosaic law, we could never be saved by the law. Paul never taught that the law was void, just that one could not be saved just by adhering to the law. One is saved by grace. Mankind had already shown they were incapable of following the law perfectly.. So how could one ever hope to attain salvation through the law. You have your rules and laws within Islam, and put great importance upon them. You find me a muslim.. Just one.. Who can follow every aspect of the law perfectly. If you said you could I would not believe you, as mankind are not perfect and have an inherited sin nature. That is a fact.. You just don't see it.

When you say a blood atonement was required, we are imperfect and that OT law was never a means of salvation, I find that a matter of opinion. It is not necessarily logical or the first idea that might appear to groups of thinkers without any loyalty to any religion.

Think this point has been addressed already.

Lastly, your religion emphasizes great importance to love I agree. Islam places the highest importance to justice and obedience to the Creator in the form of His Revelation and Legislation. I think you will find that incorporates love at its most supreme level and puts it into perspective. If you love Allah, you will accept Him and what He asks of you and you will follow Him through His Commandments. If you do so you have shown you truly love Him and He will love you in return. In Islam it is a two way street. It is first up to you to take the initial step after that it is incumbent upon the Creator to accept you as well. That in my opinion is true love. A blood atonement on its own is not sufficient in itself.

I believe it's the other way round. :) Justice without love through mercy becomes vengeance, obedience without love becomes obligation. Without love freely given and received we are empty. Love is the force that best reflects the Creator, that is what Yeshua showed us. The Biggest thing you say I have issue with is.... If you do so you have shown you truly love Him and He will love you in return. .... Because Yeshua taught that God loves us unconditionally, weather we believe in Him or not.. His love is there, when we are disobedient towards him.. God may be disappointed in us but His love for us is undiminished. In Gods supreme act of agape love through Yeshuas atoning work on the cross, we are shown just how great and all encompassing that love is. It's a reflection of that Love God has shown to us that we offer worship in abounding love and obedience.. Not because we hope to gain Gods love, we know we have that already..but to give back a tiny measure of that love returned to our Creator.

Blessings and may Gods love shine on you Abu Juwairiya. :)
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
Thank you Sister Cariad for your reply. I will address some of your points in this reply and the remainder in others. First, Muslims do not say Christianity believes Jesus is the physical Son of God, that is also incorrect, what we say is the title and concept itself is just as wrong and blasphemous as the physical sonship you despise, irrespective of how one interprets it, what the figurative meaning is and what it may imply. Hence what you regard the definition and understanding of 'Son of God' as not being blasphemous is equally as grotesque and disgusting in our eyes.

Second, when I said 'sin' was not committed by Adam and Eve, it was because it did not exist for it to be termed 'sin'. That is not to hard to understand. Disobedience today against the Creator is 'sin' as everything is in place; in terms of laws, rules and regulations in the way it was not then. At the time, there was just one rule and the Creator did not say to disobey would result in punishment the way it exists today. That was a unique episode in the early life of the human race. Disobedience then was limited to the eating from the tree, and the quick and sincere repentance from both Adam and Eve ensured the price and consequence of their disobedience did not go any further. That is what I mean when I say we should not question God. Your view is 'Sin' started there and God punished them and us through Original Sin, our view is neither is true and we should not believe that they must be.

In respect to your next point-

'I believe God in the Bible decided Adams disobedience was a sin, this is born out by the proof of the state of mankind today. Why you think disobeying a direct decree from God could be anything other than a sin is beyond me. Like they made a mistake.. Where is the mistake.. Did Adam not hear Gods decree? Did he misunderstand what God meant? Or did he think God was not being serious? Whilst we can understand that next to God, Adam and Eve were like mere children, but even a small child can know when a parent forbids something it means they should not do it...a wilful child may well disobey, but they will know by disobeying they are doing wrong'.

This has already been addressed earlier, so I will partially add to it by saying if Allah says something is not a 'sin', as was the case of Adam and Eve, we accept it without question, you do not. That is why you insist on everything being black and white only with the first disobedience counting as 'Sin' when Islam argues it was not. It was wrong, but not yet a sin.

On another point you mentioned-

'I don't know what you mean by islam places a higher importance on major sins than some christians do.. What do you see as major sins? Yet.. On this point we should also be aware that it is not us who decides what is or is not a major sin.. Or even a minor sin. For God there is just sin. The smallest sin may have less of an impact but it has an impact just the same'.

Major sins are those that take a person most away from Allah's Grace and Mercy.

Among the crimes against the Creator or as I would call hem 'Divine Crimes' include worship of anyone or anything other than the Creator, worship of anyone or anything additional to the Creator, the alignment of divine characteristics and qualities unique to the Creator being given to anyone other than Him alone.

Secondary major sins related to Divine crimes include Magic in any form, Horoscopes, Astrology, Superstitions et al. This also include consulting or seeking assistance from mediums, witches, Ouija boards and good or evil spirits of every kind.

Among the social major crimes they include Adultery, Murder, Theft, Rape, Embezzlement, Lying, Deception et al.

Among the personal major crimes they include the use of alcohol in any and every form, the right to be homosexual, bisexual or lesbian, gambling in any and every form.

As far as atonement is concerned, it is your belief that God required one, it is our belief He did not. That's simple for us and not for you.

In regard to your argument-

'It's not about the termination of the Mosaic law, we could never be saved by the law. Paul never taught that the law was void, just that one could not be saved just by adhering to the law. One is saved by grace. Mankind had already shown they were incapable of following the law perfectly.. So how could one ever hope to attain salvation through the law. You have your rules and laws within Islam, and put great importance upon them. You find me a muslim.. Just one.. Who can follow every aspect of the law perfectly. If you said you could I would not believe you, as mankind are not perfect and have an inherited sin nature. That is a fact.. You just don't see it.'

I agree I don't see it and you shouldn't either. Mankind is not perfect, it never was and may never will be, no matter what is introduced into this world by anyone, but that doesn't mean the divine law is in some way insufficient in itself to be saved. We all need God's Grace, His Mercy and His Kindness but it is additional to the law as His Prerogative based on the law which as you agree is from Him alone. I am sorry but it is nonsensical for the Mosaic law to exist for thousands of years and be made less important not by Jesus in the flesh but by Paul, a non Prophet, who is of questionable integrity in the first place.

True, there may not be anyone who can follow all the laws of Islam fully and Allah does not expect it, but we accept the legitimacy of the law. We expect God's Grace by following it as much as possible and hope for forgiveness where we fall short in following it, but we give the law the respect it deserves. You don't. I agree we sin and it is here to stay as long as we continue to sin, but no you cannot prove it is inherited, that is a Christian opinion, not a fact.

Finally, on your last point-

I believe it's the other way round. :) Justice without love through mercy becomes vengeance, obedience without love becomes obligation. Without love freely given and received we are empty. Love is the force that best reflects the Creator, that is what Yeshua showed us. The Biggest thing you say I have issue with is.... If you do so you have shown you truly love Him and He will love you in return. .... Because Yeshua taught that God loves us unconditionally, weather we believe in Him or not.. His love is there, when we are disobedient towards him.. God may be disappointed in us but His love for us is undiminished. In Gods supreme act of agape love through Yeshuas atoning work on the cross, we are shown just how great and all encompassing that love is. It's a reflection of that Love God has shown to us that we offer worship in abounding love and obedience.. Not because we hope to gain Gods love, we know we have that already..but to give back a tiny measure of that love returned to our Creator.

I strongly disagree and that is my right as a Non Christian. God does not love those who do not love Him, nor does He love those who do wrong to others and do so deliberately and wilfully. If He did, He would not believe in justice, that is why I said we believe in justice more than you. That is why not everyone will be accepted into the Kingdom of Allah, that is the reason why some people are to be permanent residents of the Kingdom of Hell. There are millions of people who are just not good people and not just bad, but evil people. God does not love them and neither should you, I or the believers in goodness and justice. You can't love the oppressor but hate the oppression. Those guilty of deliberate oppression are outside of God's Grace as long as they believe in it and until then He does not love them. He loves those who do good, who believe in good and more importantly believe and accept Him as He has described himself.

In Islam Jesus was not crucified, nor was he killed but another man was made to look like him and he was executed in the place of Jesus, hence no atonement was offered or given as Jesus did not die in the first place. Second, his alleged death also did not diminish, reduce or terminate sin, it still exists and when you speak of Muslims not following the law, you should be aware Christians the world over know less about Jesus and his life, his immediate teachings, his everyday rituals and do not attempt to live the way he did, the way he looked, the way he ate, he way he slept, the way he greeted people, I could go on.

Peace Be Upon You.

Abu Juwairiya
 
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