Two events of Kabbah

jack2k6

Junior Member
930AD event:

Qarmatiyyah is an Isma'ilite Shi'ite community which settled mainly in the Bahrein peninsula in the 10th century.

In 930 the Qarmatis attacked Mecca during the pilgrimage season, killing many residents and pilgrims, and removed the Black stone (Hazre Aswat) of the ka'bah. The Black stone is believed to have been taken to a place in Bahrain. The Black Stone was eventually returned to Kabbah 21-22 years later.

As far as I have learned that kissing the Black Stone takes away the sins of Muslims. Now, during the span of 930AD to 951AD, when this Black Stone was not present in Mecca, was pilgrimage or Umrah stopped ?? Or what happened during that span of time. ??


1979 Event:

A group of 200 students (extremists) took over the Grand Mosque. Apparently the Saudi National Guard was unable to retrieve the control from the students. So, the Saudi govt. had took assistance from French, Pakistan, Egyptian security personnel to take control of the sisuation. Apparently, since non-muslims are not allowed, so the French security Personnel whoever entered Mecca had to embrace Islam just for this operation.

It seems, the French who entered the city most likely haven't studied Islam, or new very less about it, but they had to embrace Islam just to enter Mecca. How come this kind of conversion to Islam is acceptable as there's no compulsion in religion ??
 
The black stone is just a stone. Its not an object of worship. Nothing in creation is worthy of worship. Muslims regard it very highly, just as they love the Kaaba, so even if the stone wasn't there during those years, hajj and umrah went on as usual because the stone forms no part of any ritual. Don't know about the french though.
 

Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
Hi Jack2k6!
Welcome to the site. Could you explain your main purpose by mentioing these 2 points (black stone, french security converting). Is your pupose to know about islamic point of view and increase in your knowledge or is it an indirect critisism to try to point out weaknesses in the claim of Islam as a true religion?
After knowing your purpose, one can better explain it according to your taste.

Wassalamu ala manittabaal huda
 

fahad96

Fahad
:salam2:
I have visited Makah 4 times and during my visit I haven't seen in my eyes or tough the black stone. It is there and never know this point that you have to kiss it as I know people doing that just a respect and nothing else and how the students stole this stone well this is kind of dream never heard and about the french story maybe a jews dram,
Please if you want to learn Islam you are welcome brother but don't confuse yourself. Remember this tomorrow is going to be yours.
 

dna1987

Muslim Guy
From what I know, the 1979 thing did happen, where Makkah was taken over - however, the French turning up is not confirmed... I THINK it's a speculation ... Hmm.
 

jack2k6

Junior Member
Hello,

My pupose of post was not to criticise Islam, but to learn about Islamic theology, history.

I know that the Black Stone is not what Muslims worship. However, like someone mentioned, its not an ordinary stone either. Its a special stone. To the best of my knowledge, the Black Stone (Hazre Aswat) was given to Adam and Eve after they were descended to Earth. The Black Stone was initially white and as more and more Sins of Muslims gets into it (by Kissing), it gets darker/more black.

For Hajj and Umrah, kissing the Stone is an integral part of it. On every tawaf/circulation around the Kabbah, it is required to Kiss the Black Stone, however, due to presence of large crowds, it's also acceptable to simply point at it from distant. For both Umrah and Hajj, the Tawaf is needed. So, without the presence of Black Stone, how would Hajj or Umrah be possible ? So, what happened during that era of 930AD to 951AD ?

Regarding 1979 event, it did happen (google Grand Mosque Seizure), and the Saudi Security took the assistance of French security GIGN.

In anycase, If you are unable to provide a logical response, then can you provide me a site where I can ask this question to a Islamic Scholar or something ?
 

aliff

Junior Member
Assalamu Alaikum ( Peace be with you),

It is true that in 1979 a group of estimated 200 students from Islamic University of Medina took control over Holy Kabbah, but the idea that French security was inside Makkah is just a speculation, not a confirmed fact. As far as i know, all is known is that the French Security assisted in helping to regain control, but, how they assisted is not properly known. They could have assisted by giving weapons/technological stuffs etc, it doesn't necessarily mean they were inside Makkah. Please note, to enter Saudi Arabia you don't have to be muslim, but to enter Makkah or Medina, you have to be one.

Regarding the 930 issue, I have doubts about its validity.

You can ask question about Islam in this site:

http://www.islamicity.com/qa/userask.asp
 

Bluegazer

Junior Member
Hello Jack,


The circulation around the Ka'ba is one of the main pillars of Hajj and Umra. In the circulation, there are conditions that have to be met, and there are also additional steps that can earn one greater good deeds, but are not in themselves conditions for the circulation to be correct.


Kissing the Black Stone is of that second type. It's not a condition upon which the correctness of the circulation of the Ka'ba depends. Therefore, the Muslims continued to go to Hajj and Umra even in the years the Black Stone was stolen by the Qarmatians [pronounced in Arabic as Qaramita].


The following is a religious opinion of Sheikh Muhammad ibn Saalih Al-Uthaimeen. It was posted on the site supervised by Sheikh Muhammad Salih Al-Munajjid. It's an answer to question no. 34644 [Mistakes made when doing tawaaf]. Tawaaf is the Arabic pronunciation of "circulation", meaning the circulation around the Ka'ba. Please read it in full, and also take special notice of the parts I coloured red:

Question:

During tawaaf we noticed that some people stand at the beginning of tawaaf and utter out loud their intention of doing tawaaf. We also noticed that some of them push and shove in order to reach the Black Stone, and even fight over it. What is your opinion about these actions?.


Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

These are mistakes that occur during tawaaf, and are of various types:

-1-

Uttering the intention out loud when wanting to do tawaaf, so you see the pilgrim standing facing the Black Stone when he wants to do tawaaf, saying, “O Allaah, I intend to do seven circuits of tawaaf for ‘Umrah” or “O Allaah, I intend to do seven circuits of tawaaf for Hajj,” or “O Allaah, I intend to do seven circuits of tawaaf in order to draw closer to You.”

Uttering the intention out loud is bid’ah (an innovation), because the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not command his ummah to do that. Everyone who worships Allaah in a manner in which the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not worship Him or command his ummah to do so has introduced an innovation into the religion of Allaah that is not part of it. So uttering the intention out loud when doing tawaaf is a mistake and an innovation. Just as it is a mistake from the point of view of sharee’ah, it is also a mistake from a rational point of view. What is the point of uttering the intention out loud when the intention is a matter between you and your Lord, and Allaah knows what is in people’s hearts and He knows that you are going to circumambulate this House. If Allaah knows that then there is no need to say that out loud to the slaves of Allaah.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did tawaaf before you and he did not speak the intention out loud when he did tawaaf. The Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) did tawaaf before you and did not speak the intention out loud when they did tawaaf, or when doing any other act of worship, so this is a mistake.

-2-

Some of those who do tawaaf push and shove too much when they touch the Black Stone and the Yemeni Corner, and they are disturbed by the overcrowding and disturb others. They may be pushing and shoving a woman, and the Shaytaan may tempt him and fill his heart with desire when he is crowding this woman in this narrow place. People are only human and may be overwhelmed by their souls that prompt them to do evil, so an evil action may take place in the shadow of the House of Allaah. This is a matter that becomes even worse in light of where it takes place, although it is a fitnah in any place it happens.

It is not prescribed to push and shove when touching the Black Stone or the Yemeni Corner, rather if it is easy for you to do so in a calm and dignified manner, then you must do it, and if it is not easy for you to do it, then you should just point to the Black Stone.

With regard to the Yemeni Corner, there is no report from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that he pointed to it, and we cannot compare it to the Black Stone, because the Black Stone is greater than it, and it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) pointed to the Black Stone.

Just as crowding is not prescribed in this situation and there is the fear that it may cause fitnah when one is crowded together with women, so too it may also cause annoyance, because in crowded situations a person will inevitably hear words that he dislikes and he will feel annoyed and angry when he leaves this place.

What the person who is doing tawaaf should do is always remain calm and dignified, so that he will have the proper presence of mind for worshipping Allaah. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Tawaaf around the House and (Saa’i) between al-Safa and al-Marwah and the stoning of the Jamaar have only been prescribed so that remembrance of Allaah (dhikr) will be established.”

-3-

Some people think that tawaaf is not valid unless one kisses the Black Stone, and that kissing the Black Stone is one of the conditions of tawaaf being valid, and of Hajj and ‘Umrah being valid too. This is a mistaken notion. Kissing the Black Stone is Sunnah, and it is not an independent Sunnah either, rather it is Sunnah for the one who is doing tawaaf. I do not know that kissing the Black Stone is Sunnah except in tawaaf. Based on this, since kissing the Black Stone is Sunnah and is not obligatory and is not a condition of Tawaaf, then if a person does not kiss it, we do not say that his tawaaf is invalid or that his tawaaf is lacking and he is sinning. Rather his tawaaf is valid and if there is a lot of crowding then pointing is better than touching, because this is what the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did when the place was crowded, and because by doing this a person avoids harm that he may do to others or that others may do to him.

If someone were to ask us: If the Mataaf (place of tawaaf) is very crowded, what do you think – is it better to push in and touch and kiss the Black Stone, or to point to it?

We say that it is better to point to it, because that is the Sunnah. That was narrated from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and the best guidance is the guidance of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

-4-

Kissing the Yemeni Corner. There is no proof concerning this from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and if an act of worship is not proven from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) then it is bid’ah and is not an act of worship that brings one closer to Allaah. Based on this, it is not prescribed to kiss the Yemeni Corner, because that was not proven from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Rather that was narrated in a da’eef (weak) hadeeth that cannot be taken as evidence.

-5-

Some people, when they touch the Black Stone or Yemeni Corner, touch it with their left hands in a careless manner. This is a mistake, because the right hand is better than the left hand, and the left hand is only used for unclean things such as cleaning oneself after relieving oneself, or rinsing one's nose, and so on. When it comes to matters of kissing and respect, the right hand should be used.

-6-

They think that touching the Black Stone and the Yemeni corner is done for barakah or blessing, not as part of the ritual of tawaaf, so they touch them seeking barakah from them. This is undoubtedly contrary to the purpose, for the purpose of touching the Black Stone or wiping it or kissing it is to glorify Allaah. Hence when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) touched the Black Stone he said: “Allaahu akbar,” as an indication that the purpose of this action is to glorify Allaah, not to seek barakah by touching this stone. Hence when the caliph ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) touched the Black Stone he said: “By Allaah, I know that you are just a stone and can neither cause harm nor bring benefit. Were it not that I had seen the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.”

This mistaken notion held by some people – that the purpose behind touching the Yemeni Corner and the Black Stone is to seek barakah – has led some of them to bring their young children and touch the Corner or the Stone with their hands, then wipe their children with their hands. This is a corrupt belief that should be denounced. We should explain to people that these stones can neither harm nor benefit, and that the purpose of touching them is to glorify Allaah and establish His remembrance (dhikr), and to follow the example of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

All of these matters and others are not prescribed in sharee’ah. Rather they are innovations (bid’ah) and do not benefit those who do them in any way. But if the one who does that is ignorant and does not realize that this is bid’ah, then there is the hope that he may be forgiven. But if he knows that this is bid’ah or is negligent and does not ask about his religion, then he is sinning.

-7-

Some people recite a specific du’aa’ in each circuit. This is a kind of bid’ah that was not narrated from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or his companions. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not recite a specific du’aa’ in each circuit, and neither did his companions. The most that can be said concerning that is that between the Yemeni Corner and the Black Stone the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to say: “Our Lord! Give us in this world that which is good and in the Hereafter that which is good, and save us from the torment of the Fire!” [al-Baqarah 2:201 – interpretation of the meaning].

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Tawaaf around the House and (Saa’i) between al-Safa and al-Marwah and the stoning of the Jamaar have only been prescribed so that remembrance of Allaah (dhikr) will be established.”

This bid’ah is even more wrong when the person carries a small booklet in which there is a du’aa’ for each circuit, and he reads this booklet, not knowing what he is saying, either because he does not know Arabic and does not understand the meanings, or because although he is an Arab and speaks Arabic he does not know what he is saying. We even hear some of them say du’aa’s that clearly deviate from Islamic teaching; for example, we have heard someone saying, “O Allaah, make me independent of means by Your Majesty (jalaalika) so I have no need of that which You have forbidden” when he should have said, “by that which You have permitted (halaalika).”

We also see some people reading this booklet, and when they finish the du’aa’ for the circuit they are doing, they stop and do not recite any other du’aa’s for the rest of that circuit. If there are not many people in the Mataaf, they finish the circuit before they finish the du’aa’, so they cut the du’aa’ short.

The remedy for that is to explain to the pilgrims that during tawaaf a person can say whatever du’aa’ he wants, and he can remember Allaah (dhikr) however he wants. If this is explained to the people this problem will go away.

Ruling on one who falls into these innovations
With regard to these actions, people are either:

- completely ignorant and do not realize that what they are doing is haraam. In this case there is the hope that there will be no blame on such people.

- Or they know but they are deliberately going astray and leading others astray. Such a person is undoubtedly a sinner and will also bear the burden of the sins of those who follow his example.

- Or they are unaware and are negligent, not caring to ask people who know. There is the fear that these people may be sinning because of their carelessness and their failure to ask.

These are the errors that we have noticed during tawaaf. We hope that Allaah will guide our Muslim brothers to put things right so that their tawaaf will be in accordance with the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), for the best of guidance is the guidance of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Religion is not based on emotions and inclinations, rather it is to be based on what has been narrated from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).



From Daleel al-Akhta’ allati yaqa’ fiha al-Haaj wa’l-Mu’tamir by Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him).

Source: http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=34644&ln=eng


You might find the following religious opinion [fatwa] interesting, since it mentions the authentic and the inauthentic narrations about the Black Stone. It was posted on the website supervised by Sheikh Muhammad Salih Al-Munajjid. It's an answer to question no. 45643 [Questions about the Black Stone]:

Question:
I read an article about the Black Stone and I want to make sure about the soundness of the hadeeths and reports and whether they can be accepted or they are fabricated (mawdoo’). May Allaah reward you with good.
The article says:
Believe it or not.
Yes, there is only one Stone on earth that floats on water. It is the Black Stone that is situated in the south-east corner of the Holy Ka’bah in the Sanctuary of Makkah al-Mukarramah. Jalaal al-Suyooti said: When al-Mutee’ Lillaah bought the black Stone from Abu Taahir al-Qarmati, the hadeeth scholar ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Ukaym came and said: “We have two signs in our stone: it floats on water and it does not get hot in the fire.” So he brought a stone that had been rubbed with perfume and wrapped in brocade to make him think that this was the Black Stone. They placed it in water and it sank; then they put it in the fire and it cracked. Then he brought another stone and did likewise to it, and the same things happened. Then he brought the Black Stone and put it in water, and it floated; then he put it in the fire and it did not get hot. ‘Abd-Allaah said: “This is our Stone.” Abu Taahir al-Qarmati was amazed by this and said: “How did you know that?” ‘Abd-Allaah said: “It was narrated that the Messenger of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The Black Stone is Allaah’s right hand on His earth. It will come on the Day of Resurrection with a tongue with which it will testify about those who kissed it in sincerity or otherwise. It does not sink in water and it does not get hot in fire…’”
The Black Stone is the point at which tawaaf begins, at the south-eastern corner of the Holy Ka’bah. It was originally one of the precious stones of Paradise. Its original colour is white like the maqaam (Maqaam Ibraaheem). It is the place where tears should be shed, and where du’aa’s are answered. It is Sunnah to touch it and kiss it. It is the right hand of Allaah on His earth in the sense that it is the place where a man renews his covenant with Allaah and his repentance. On the Day of Resurrection it will testify for all those who touched it. Whoever swears an oath whilst touching it, it is like touching the Hand of the Most Merciful, and touching it erases sins. It is the place touched by the lips of the Prophets, the righteous and pilgrims performing Hajj and ‘Umrah and visiting the holy places. Glory be to Allaah the Almighty.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

The Black Stone is the stone which is inset into the south-eastern corner of the Holy Ka’bah on the outside, in a setting of silver. It is the starting-point for tawaaf. Currently it is a meter and a half above the ground.

What is mentioned in the article quoted in the question is true in part, and there is sound (saheeh) evidence for that, but other things mentioned are not true and have no basis.

We have quoted in the answer to question no. 1902 most of the reports narrated in the Saheeh Sunnah concerning the Black Stone. For example, Allaah sent the Black Stone down to earth from Paradise, and it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam turned it black; it will come on the Day of Resurrection with two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak and will testify for those who touched it in truth and sincerity. Touching it, kissing it or pointing to it is the first thing that a person does when he wants to circumambulate the Ka’bah (tawaaf), whether he is doing Hajj or ‘Umrah or a voluntary tawaaf. The Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed it, and his ummah followed him in doing so. If a person is unable to kiss it he should touch it with his hand or with something, and then kiss that thing. If he is unable to do that he should point to it with his hand and say Allaahu akbar. Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah erases sins.

Secondly:

With regard to the story of the Qaraamitah stealing the Black Stone and keeping it with them for a long time, this is true. Ibn Katheer said, concerning the events of 278 AH:

In this year the Qaraamitah – who are a heretical sect that follows Persian philosophy and believes that Zaradasht and Mazdak, who used to permit forbidden things, are prophets – started their trouble.

As well as that, they blindly follow everyone who speaks falsehood. The group they managed to corrupt the most were the Raafidis because they are the least wise of people. They are also called Ismaa’eelis (Ismailis) because they are named after Ismaa’eel al-A’raj ibn Ja’far al-Saadiq.

They are also called al-Qaraamitah. It was said that they are named after Qarmat ibn al-Ash’ath al-Baqqaar; and it was said that in the beginning their leader used to tell them to pray fifty times a day, so as to distract them from what he was really up to.

What is meant is that this group became active in this year, then things got worse and reached alarming proportions – as we shall see – when they entered al-Masjid al-Haraam and shed the blood of the pilgrims inside the Mosque around the Ka’bah, and they broke the Black Stone and removed it from its position, and took it with them to their homeland in 317 AH, and it stayed with them until 339 AH, so it was absent from its place in the Ka’bah for 22 years. To Allaah we belong and verily unto Him is our return.

Al-Bidaayah wa’l-Nihaayah, 11/72, 73

Thirdly:

With regard to what was mentioned about the Black Stone being the place where tears should be shed, there is a hadeeth to that effect narrated by Ibn Maajah (2945) from Ibn ‘Umar, who said: The Messenger of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) turned to face the Stone, then he put his lips on it and wept for a long time. Then he turned and saw ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab weeping. He said: “O ‘Umar, this is the place where tears should be shed.” But this is a weak (da’eef) hadeeth as stated by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel, 111. He said: (it is) da’eef jiddan (very weak).

With regard to the hadeeth about the Black Stone being Allaah’s Right Hand on earth, the answer to that is that it is a false (baatil) hadeeth which is not proven from the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Ibn al-Jawzi said in al-‘Ilal al-Mutanaahiyah: This hadeeth is not saheeh.

Al-‘Ilal by Ibn Al-Jawzi, 2/575. see also Talkhees al-‘Ilal by al-Dhahabi (p. 191).

Ibn al-‘Arabi said: it is a false hadeeth to which no attention should be paid. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said: It was narrated from the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) with an isnaad that cannot be proven; based on that there is no need to discuss its meaning.

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 6/397.

Fourthly:

With regard to what is mentioned about the Black Stone floating on water, and that it does not become hot in the fire, and that it is the place where du’aa’s are answered – there is no basis for any of this in the Sunnah.

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

Source: http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=45643&ln=eng



Please click on the following link to ask Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid your question about using the French Forces to break the siege of the Grand Mosque in Makkah:

http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ln=eng&pg=fbqa


Best regards,

Bluegazer
 

Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
HI Bawar are you Kurdish?

Assalamu alaikum brother!

No, I am an Afghan muslim, alhamdulellah.
I love all muslims, especially Kurd muslims as they suffered just like Afghan muslims. I have a Kurd friend. I know many words in Kurdish are used in Dari and Pushtu which are spoken in Afghanistan and we also use Bawar for the same meaning as you do.
 
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