Who started the distorted teachings of the new testament

Discussion in 'Muslim <---> Christian Dialogue' started by James_Boanerges, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. James_Boanerges
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    James_Boanerges New Member

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    Good day to everyone, firstly i would like to confess that i am a born again christian.

    I've spent the past two days reading threads and comments.

    Over and over again i read "The bible is distorted or corrupted"

    In this section i want to focus on the new testament.

    What does the new testament teach? (In short)

    (1) Jesus was crucified and died on the cross

    (2) Jesus rose from the dead.

    The question is: Why would the followers of Jesus believe this ???

    The answer is in your own quran chapter 4:157

    And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, allah's messenger - they slew Him not nor crucified Him, but it appeared so unto them: they slew Him not for certain.

    [Tafsir al-Qomi, vol.1 p.111].

    Verily, in the night that allah had promised to raise Jesus to him, Jesus invited his disciples, who were twelve men, to a house. Jesus came out to them from a corner of the house whilst he was drying his head from water. He then said: Surely, allah revealed to me that he will raise me this time to him and will clear me from the Jews, so which one of you is willing to have my image cast upon him to be killed and crucified and he will be with me in the hereafter? A young man from among them said: I (will accept) O Ruhullah! Jesus replied: So, you will be the one.” [Tafsir al-Qomi, vol.1 p.111].

    so your allah (the god of islam) tricked the jews and the christians into believing that it was "Jesus" who was hanging on the cross.

    If you wanna claim that the bible is corrupt, thats fine.. but you should then tell the truth, it all started when allah tricked the jews and the christians.

    so allah founded christianity?? or allah started the corrupt teachings of the new testament?? not Jesus or Paul?, before you point a finger at Paul you should first point a finger at allah and then to your quran chapter 4:157 before you can point to anyone else, or are you going to disagree with your quran?

    This raises another very disturbing question:

    This incident happened in the first century, if only the jews and christians were tricked, WHY didnt the muslims say anything?? Were they tricked as well ? Or they just didnt know? Its only when muhammad came almost 600 years later that this was revealed.

    So everyone who believed in Jesus (worshiped Him) from the first century up until muhammad came will burn in hell because they were tricked and no one told them ?

    According to the quran, allah just decided one day to trick the jews and christians (start a corrupt religion that believes Jesus died on the cross) THATS THE MAIN REASON WHY I WORSHIP JESUS AS MY LORD AND SAVIOR.

    Last Point

    (3) Jesus Is GOD

    muslims will say Jesus never claimed to be GOD (there is no verse in the bible where Jesus said "I am GOD" bow down and worship ME.

    I have a Challenge for you:

    Show me ONE verse in your quran where muhammad said from his own lips "i am a prophet"

    Ps i will record this on video (screen capture) just incase i get banned, then i can post it on youtube as proof.
  2. Janaan
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    Janaan ربنا اغفر لنا ذنوبنا Staff Member

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    Hello, James.

    First, I would like to welcome you to the site. Second, I had to move your thread because it was in the wrong section.

    You also have to know that we don not 'debate' here. We're all here to learn and benefit from one another. If you wish to ask questions, or bring up an issue, please be respectful. We don't allow insults, rude remarks, vulgar language etc. on here as well. And despite our differences, we must still respect each other's religions (and this includes the different 'Gods' we believe in).

    And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do. [6:108]

    And if someone disagrees with you, simply agree to disagree - don't get emotional.
    The verse is correct, however I'd like to ask you to refrain from quoting this tafseer in the future, it is written by a shia and is not authentic. We only follow the Qur'aan and the sunnah of the prophet with the correct understanding here.

    As for your questions, I think you're quite confused. The Bible (Injeel) and the Torah (Taurat) were corrupted at the hands of the Jews and Christians. They would alter the words of Allaah by deliberately misinterpreting the texts and changing its meanings, they would allow what was forbidden and forbid what was allowed, they would constantly invent lies against Allaah, etc.

    We do not attribute injustice to Allaah, please watch what you say. The only unjust thing that had occurred at that event is the Jews wanting to kill `Isa. We believe that Allaah in His infinite Power and Wisdom, raised him up to the heavens where he'll stay until right before the end of time when he'll descend back to the earth. The fact that Allah made someone else to look like him was simply a test/trial for them.
    “Truly, Allaah wrongs not mankind in aught; but mankind wrong themselves”[Yoonus 10:44].

    We, Muslims, believe that we'll be tested again and again in this world and then in the hereafter we'll each be held accountable for our own deeds and actions. We do not place the burden of our sins on any other human, now that would be injustice, and Allaah is ever Just.
    Refrain from using all-capitals, it will seem as if you're shouting at everyone and might make you look silly and immature.
    I'm having a hard time understanding this. You quote a verse from the qur'aan for why you think he was the one crucified and yet, now that you know the truth, you still worship him?
    I'm not sure what this has to do with Christianity or worshiping Jesus, but what you're asking for is impossible. The qur'aan, the verbatim word of Allaah, was revealed to prophet Muhammad, which means that none of his words are in there. His saying that he is a prophet, on his own with his mouth, would be found in what's called "Hadith".

    However, Allaah does say in many places throughout the qur'an that he is the messenger, and in fact the final messenger, and that is more than enough for us.

    Examples from the Qur'an:
    Chapter 48, verse 29: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, (the verse is long but this is the relevant bit)
    Chapter 33, verse 40: Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

    Examples from the Ahadith (plural of Hadith):
    "In My Ummah (Islamic Nation), there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me. (Abu Dawood Vol 2 p. 228; Tirmidhi Vol 2 p.45)

    There are many narrations in which he says no other prophet will come after him, some examples:
    "Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, 'The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number.' The people asked, 'O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?' He said, 'Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 661)"

    "Narrated Sad: Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, 'Do you want to leave me with the children and women?' The Prophet said, 'Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 59, Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (peace be upon him) (Al-Maghaazi), Volume 5, Number 700)"

    "Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) left 'Ali b. Abi Talib behind him (as he proceeded) to the expedition of Tabuk, whereupon he ('Ali) said: Allah's Messenger, are you leaving me behind amongst women and children? Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there would be no prophet after me. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 31, The Book Pertaining to the Merits of the Companions (Allah Be Pleased With Them) of the Holy Prophet (May Peace Be Upon Him) (Kitab Al-Fada'il Al-Sahabah), Number 5914)"

    "Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace be upon him)....(Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 37, Battles (Kitab Al-Malahim), Number 4310)" [Long narration]

    Btw, the verse you quoted from the qur'aan says nothing about Jesus rising from the dead, where'd you get that from? (Number 2 on your list).

    At the end of the day, we say that Allaah (The all-Mighty) is Just, and `Isa is a not more than a human being, and he is a prophet just like Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad. He never asked to be worshiped, and he was sent with the same message that all of the prophets were sent with: to believe in Allaah alone and make no partners with Him.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Janaan
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    Janaan ربنا اغفر لنا ذنوبنا Staff Member

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    There's a narration about this in the tafsir of Ibn Kathir if you wish to read it:

    Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised `Isa to the heavens, `Isa went to his companions, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping water and he said, `There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.' He then asked, `Who volunteers that his image appear as mine, and be killed in my place. He will be with me (in Paradise)' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered and `Isa asked him to sit down. `Isa again asked for a volunteer, and the young man kept volunteering and `Isa asking him to sit down. Then the young man volunteered again and `Isa said, `You will be that man,' and the resemblance of `Isa was cast over that man while `Isa ascended to heaven from a hole in the house. When the Jews came looking for `Isa, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of `Isa's followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, Al-Ya`qubiyyah (Jacobites), said, `Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to heaven.' Another group, An-Nasturiyyah (Nestorians), said, `The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to heaven.' Another group, Muslims, said, `The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad .'' This statement has an authentic chain of narration leading to Ibn `Abbas, and An-Nasa'i narrated it through Abu Kurayb who reported it from Abu Mu`awiyah.

    Allaah tells us in the qur'aan,

    “This is because your Lord would not destroy the (populations of) towns for their wrongdoing (i.e. associating others in worship along with Allaah) while their people were unaware (so the Messengers were sent)”[6:131]

    And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).[17:15]

    There's also a hadeeth that was reported in musnad of Imam Ahmad (18566) from the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Zaree’ that the Prophet of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There will be four on the Day of Resurrection: a deaf man who could not hear anything, an imbecile, a senile old man and a man who died during the interval between two Prophets. As for the deaf man, he will say: ‘Lord, Islam came but I did not hear anything.’ As for the imbecile, he will say: ‘Islam came but the children were throwing dung at me.’ As for the senile old man, he will say, ‘Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ As for the one who died during the interval between two Prophets, he will say: ‘Lord, no Messenger of Yours came to me.’ They will give their pledge to obey Him, then a Messenger will be sent to tell them to enter the fire.” He said: “By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.” According to another report: “The one who enters it, it will be cool and safe for him, and the one who does not enter it will be dragged to it.”

    So it would be unfair to say that those who were "unaware" will be in Hell, and Allaah is the most Merciful.
  4. Cariad
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    Cariad Junior Member

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    James, hello to you. Do not over concern yourself with claims from muslims about the corruption of the Torah and the Gospels. The Quran does not claim this as fact, apart from some very ambiguous statement about some people changing something's with their own hands, I'm sure someone could give you reference to the relative Sura. The Quran itself tells Mohammed to look to the previous scriptures... Would God command such if God knew the scriptures where already corrupt? I doubt it.

    If you are a Christian in Christ then you will see if you read what the Quran has to say about Isa, that they are two very different people. Isa in the Quran bears no resemblance in character or deeds to Jesus in the Bible.

    Whereas muslims believe in the virgin birth, and also that Christ Jesus was the messiah they do not understand why a virgin birth was a necessity by Gods will, the use of the title messiah when applied to Isa in the Quran is not meant in the same way as the Biblical understanding.

    Also by denying the crucifixion makes a nonsense of both the belief in the virgin birth and the term messiah is ignored. I have heard different beliefs surrounding the crucifixion from various muslims which range from
    God just raised Jesus up alive, with no account of when or how this occurred, or substituted another in his place... This means we have to accept God as a deceiver. Which is impossible. Or that Jesus went travelling to India.. Lived to an old age and died there, again there is scant proof to found whichever version you prescribe to. Despite the wealth of independant evidence that we can refer to that the crucifixion did take place.. That counts for nothing. :)

    Basically, I think it comes down to how we each.. Muslims and Christians... View sin, and what impact sin has against a Holy God.

    It seems like Muslims seek to understand God in a logical fashion. We do not need to understand God, except in the ways He has chosen to reveal himself to us. I prefer to think of God as beyond my humble understanding, and it is an error to apply human logic to almighty God.

    Blessings. C
  5. Cariad
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    Cariad Junior Member

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    I think James was using capitols to emphasise certain points, not to be rude or shout. :) I don't think emphasising in this way shows him to be in any way immature.

    You could cut him some slack here I think.. Ya. :)
  6. SonOfAdam
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    SonOfAdam Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Here is the answer to your challenge:
    Don't forget to put this in any video tape... you said you would convert to Islam if we provided this to you from the Quran. :) Welcome to the site and Islam my brother. I am sure many others here can address your other questions.
  7. SonOfAdam
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    SonOfAdam Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    You are not making logical arguments, I don't agree with anything you said. You lack knowledge on the topic of both Islam and the history of Christianity. So please let me try to help you understand.

    God did not trick anyone, it was people that corrupted the Bible not God. By your logic that means God tricked all other non-Christians too to be in their faith (Us Muslims God tricked us that means according to your logic as a Christian looking at Muslims, and other non-Christians). You must learn to put yourself in others shoes to see how your arguments do not make sense and are not fair. It was known by the Jews/Early Christians that he was raised to heaven. Even their religious symbol was the fish and not the cross... It is even written in certain Gospels like the Gospel of Barnabas that Jesus did not die and was raised up and it is also not believed by many Christians today that Jesus is God - The Unitarian Sect believe Jesus is a Prophet like Muslims do. So you see, it is not that Muslims are not the only ones with these beliefs and it is not like we just made it up. It was divinely inspired to us yes, but still there are other proofs and people that share these ideas as us.

    You have to go talk to the Vatican and other Christian scholars that stores all the different Gospels and that originally collected the Bible on it's history- not ask us. There are so many Gospels out there that are considered heretical because they don't show Jesus as God and that another Prophet was to come (Muhammad). Why don't they reveal what is written in these Gospels to us too, like what is written in the Gospal of Barnabas. We know enough even from the current Bible to know that it did say Jesus is a Prophet and that Muhammad was to come by the way...

    Please show me the verse where Jesus says I am God and bow and worship me in the Bible. And even if it does say such a thing there are a handful of Jesus's sayings in the Bible where he says that he is not God and only God is good, don't call me good etc... so it is not a real argument or even a proof for you to provide such a verse. After all your christian scholars are the ones that say the Bible has changed and been corrupted over the years, not just Muslims so how will we know what is right and what is wrong. Just watch some Christian scholars and Priests and Pastors talk about the Bible's history... don't look at our sayings. The Bible is not in English, show me a Bible in it's original form Aramaic/Hebrew... it does not exist. Rather you have hundreds of different manuscripts that them-self are copies of another and all vary in wordings with missing and added versus. To make things worse these have been translated from language to language many times over before they got into the English form you read today- though their are VERSIONS of the Bible that do try to go back to the oldest manuscripts for translation- but still they put in the fabricated Trinity versus as Christians complain that they are missing- they footnote saying it does not exist in the original manuscripts!

    The concept of the Trinity was not solidified until the Council of Nicea in 325AD. This is where the concept of God as being one or three was debated and where the many different Gospels were collected and then chosen to form the Bible today. So they only put in books that supported the idea of the Trinity best- most if not all these books they don't even know who the original authors are. All other Christians that believed Jesus was a Prophet were persecuted and forced to adopt the Trinity doctrine after this. So as you can see, don't take my word for it, go look up the history, your Bible is not really a sound proof of what God is/isn't.

    I don't like to talk bad about the Bible, but you are asking and you are trying to disprove our faith. Go learn and study your own faith before you come try to disprove others faiths please.

    So what do you have to say about your challenge being answered within minutes... it took me a few minutes to collect those versus from the Quran. where are you getting your information from? I suggest you find a better source- i.e. us at turntoislam.com or at least a pious, knowledgeable, and honest Christian source.
  8. Sanshoes
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    Thread title: QUESTION: Who started the distorted teachings of the new testament

    ANSWER: Galatians 1:6-8
    6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

    Paul preached another Gospel to the disciples. His letters are all about answering the charges against him.

    2 Corinthians 11:4-5
    New International Version (NIV)

    4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with iteasily enough.

    5 I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.


    Paul never met Jesus. And he was at 'war' with the disciples. They were constasntly warning against him. But all is left is Paul defending himself against 'agitators' whom we never here their side of the argument.

    In the end Paul's own churches disowned him TIM 2

    The Council of Nicea 325ce chose Paul's gospel. The disciples side of the story is obliterated apart one letter from James & maybe 1 Peter. And so the church has polished Paul's blasphemy for 2000 years.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014

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