Can We Discuss It?

Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
The thread that iPanda started "She Loves Me" might be a reality for many sisters living in the west, but what is the right approach to deal with such an important issue? To deal with it in a practical and Islamic manner or to sweep it under the carpet and pretend that it can't be happening?

I think as Muslims, we shoud not be afraid of discussing some difficult issues. I do not know what the feelings of other brothers and sisters might be, but I gained alot of benefits from the discussion on the above topic. A few brothers and sisters discussed it in a beautiful manner. It may not be welcomed to start the same topic again, but i feel the need to say that every Muslim's struggle (internal Jihad) might be on a different level. To love Allah and his messenger more than anything else is a target towards which we all Muslims hope to strive, but I am sure we are all at different levels in this regard. What I really want to say is that it is possible that in spite the fact that our Muslim sister in question might be a devout Muslimah, it won't be fair to readily demand her to love Allah more than anything else as before we expect that from her, we should be asking ourselves first, do I love Allah more than anything else? Maybe not all of us will have "yes" answer to it. Then what should be our apporach to such an issue?

First of all, we should not see only bad things about the feelings of iPanda for our Muslim sister. We could ask iPanda 'What attracted you to her even though she is fully covered (rathr than showing her flesh) and she is a Muslim (in light of the fact that women in Islam are not protrayed very well in the dominant media)?' It is possible that iPanda may be attracted to a life of piety and wants a pious woman in his life. Is it then wrong to wish for such a woman to be a wife in one's life? Reverts to Islam have entered this beautiful religion through different leads. Who knows if she causes him to find the way to his Lord? Afterall, many female reverts found it through their male spouses (acknowleging the fact that a Muslimah is not allowed Islamically to marry a non Muslim till he accepts Islam).


As I mentioned previously, most of the above questions have been answered beautifully by some knowledgeable brothers and sisters already. What I wanted to highlight is that, as Muslms, it is necessary to deal with diffcult issues with uderstanding and wisdom (ofcourse, in the light of Quran and Sunnah) rather than with emotions.

When some one comes to us with an advice or comfort, we need to deal with them with kindness and understanding.

How should we be treating our (lost?) brother in humanity is another question that needs pondering. iPanda rightly complained, what about my feelings?
 

ShyHijabi

Junior Member
:salam2:

This is a well thought out post, and you ask very pertinent questions. I think the reason iPanda was met with such anger was because he had already been informed that this sister would not be able to marry him according to the edicts of her deeply held beliefs. We explained that it would cause a deep rift in her religion as well as her family. Yet he persists saying that he's read the Quran, etc., etc., and still persues this situation. In essence he is saying his own desires overrule the consequences of his actions.

This reflects a distinctive Western way of thinking of emotions and passions of the individual over the "big picture." I was born and raised in the West, I am a convert to Islam, so I think I have a pretty clear picture of the situation. Westerners, paricularly Americans, have been raised with individualistic thinking that thier needs will outweigh the greater good. It's why our society is turning more inward and selfish. Elders are no longer respected, parents are ignored, and there is a definite lack of faith in God. The youth begin to think their thinking is superior to that of the Qur'an. That they know better than Allah swt.

There should be no greater love than that of what we feel towards our Creator. The Qur'an states very clearly that romantic relationships before marriage are forbidden. It clearly states that a Muslim female cannot marry a nonMuslim male. But iPanda feels that his desire is more important than that of the Qur'an's words. He says he read the Qur'an yet demands respect for his emotions and desires though it goes against what we hold sacred. I cannot hold the emotions of a person superior to the words of Allah swt. I am sorry but that will not happen.

People were polite in the past and explained this to him. In respsonse he returns telling us that he is persueing this devout sister in spite of the fact that it will remove her further from her religion. That is why he was met with such anger and frustration from our brothers and sisters. He speaks of respect yet I find this behavior of his contradictory.
 

MohammedMaksudul

May Allah Forgive us
:salam2:

Brother I respect your concern. But why are we neglecting the fact such relations even between two muslims is Haraam in Islam. Now just because ipanda is a non-Muslim, we are concerned of how he feels. And ipanda assuming to be mistreated is a misunderstanding on his side, as he thinks we are replying in such manner due to his faith. But I hope we all know that such feeling can more adverse effects in the long run than prosper ones. All the brother and sisters, only advised to prevent it. I hope you have heard the story of Barisa, The worshiper which tells us how satan deceives us through deception of doing good deeds and right things.

Edit: And while I was posting this, sister ShyHijabi posted a very good and better answer. JazakAllahu Khayran.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

It saddens me that we are so self-righteous. We do not have all of the answers.
It took great courage for him to come to this forum.

Why are we so angry about something that is really none of our business. People get a life.

If they are in love and want a relationship they have to work it out. They are not fornicating.

We do not know what the Plan of Allah is for him.

We are in the wrong because we do not want for him what we have for ourselves.

We need to be careful and re-examine our selves before we delve into the business of others.

Where did our kindness go..how do we show empathy.

Did our Prophet, may the peace and blessings of Allah be on him, encourage us to be patient with those who we are showing the blessings of Islam.

Why do we not encourage him to speak to the girl's parents, an imam, a mature human being.

All social issues need to be addressed at the masjid.

And the Muslim world needs to step it up a notch. Muslim women fall in love with non-Muslims all the time..that is a reality. Why do we punish our sisters.
Just as women revert to Islam to marry Muslim men encourage him to revert to Islam to marry her.
 

Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
May Allah reward you with the best rewards brothers and sisters for your replies. I apologies for not knowing the background to the issue. Lets pray for our Muslimah sister that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala keep her on the straight path and guide her to His mercy and grant her a happy life within the fold of Islam. May our brother in humanity (iPanda) be guided to the way of peace where a true emotional peace can be achieved and to peace with his creator who has all the happiness in abundance for those who seek Him.
 

Kakorot

Junior Member
I think some of the members were too harsh on him. He is not even a Muslim so he may of not known the Islamic ruling regarding things. If he was a Muslim going through this situation, I doubt he would make a thread like this, but as I said he is not a Muslim so you can't expect him to know. And it was not like he was disrespectful, he even apologized if anyone thought he was being rude. If anyone is to blame, then it is that muslima he is referring to because she clearly knows the teachings of Islam. Maybe he just wanted advise but some of you are like haraam police lol, I don't know how else to put it. Some of you guys sure know how to put people off Islam.
 

JenGiove

Junior Member
:salam2: Brothers and Sisters,

I had replied in that thread and inshallah, he was able to see it before it was hidden. While I have no right to advise on anything relating to Islam, I can at least pose a thought.

I find the problem being the definition of love. Real love that is. Real love is being able to let someone go for their own good. For their own health, spiritually and emotionally. Real love is seeing all the problems and recognizing them and accepting them anyways. Frankly, in my understanding, that's what a Wali is for. It takes experience to be able to look objectively at a situation and judge whether or not the "hurdles" are ones that can be worked around or out and when they are insurmountable. A conflict of religion is insurmountable, ESPECIALLY a Muslim woman and non-Muslim man.

I think he only wanted to share his joy with us....unfortunatly, he probably didn't realize that it would not be a joyous thing for us to learn.

There is an order to love. As I have heard here so many times, piety is key...so, naturally, you look at a person FIRST for their love of Allah. Then you make arraignments to get to learn more about that person. "Hello, Wali, my name is Pious and I'd like to think about marriage." Someone who is not under the glow of "wow! he's really pious and I'm drawn to him" is required to see the low bank account, the living in a box shelter, the dirty robes that fall below the ankles...

After that, then it is a matter of learning and growing and the REAL love comes after marriage. When you can live together and maintain a home together, with all the dirty laundry and dirty dishes....and still feel breathless talking to the person about Allah....THAT is love.

Forgive me if I understand this incorrectly...I'm still learning alot.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

There is always hope and Allah eases the Path of those who seek Him. Reason and patience are the key ingredients. We seek Him to aid us in all issues of this life. It is that simple. Been there done that.
 

justoneofmillion

Junior Member
. Lets pray for our Muslimah sister that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala keep her on the straight path and guide her to His mercy and grant her a happy life within the fold of Islam. May our brother in humanity (iPanda) be guided to the way of peace where a true emotional peace can be achieved and to peace with his creator who has all the happiness in abundance for those who seek Him.
:salam2::salam2: I couldn t have said it better may allah swt bless you.Some of us really lack any sense of pedagogical approach towards things,i feel they haven been knocked by life enough to really feel empathy towards people .I was preparing a long and thought provoking response in relation to the decadence of the family structure in this Hellenized Roman version of the norm giving "civilization" that we are witnessing in this Modern era and it s affects on the individual.Alarming statistics based on some studies by a German Harvard absolvent Muslim thinker Murad Wilfried Hofmann .To open a broader picture for him to analyze and recenter his emotions that might be shadowed sometimes by the narrowness and the swiftness of the emotional spectrum. To give him a sense of responsibility and engagement which is as Human as the love he might feel . We don t know how to stimulate the curiosity of people.That s a fact.

While writing i was so disheartened by some responses that i stopped and had to find comfort in the fact that i have my own life and limited time to deal with.Sad and selfish isn t it!

Instead of reacting emotionally because we felt misunderstood,we should have explained why our position makes sense little by little . He is but a child to Islam ...We should have tried to slowly present Islam to him in a way that actually makes it easier t understand, with references and experiences that he might identify with.Islam is logical,world , social and economical events are crying for it,How can we reduce it to such an impoverished state.Instead of citing the word of God to him downward from 7 heavens in a manner he could hardly understand, being judgmental as if we were some sort of miggit mini gods ,We should have done it from the bottom to the top with a little bloom of Humility. Than and only than it will come from the heart when he says his Shahada .This is a heavy word Sisters and brothers even for the prophet himself"Inna sanulqee AAalayka qawlan thaqeela"Verily, We will cast upon you a heavy word"Quran 73:5 Surat Al Muzzammil.I hope we won t do this with our children,and actually explain to them the reasoning behind prohibitions,this is very important. We all have emotions with these kind of issues it is our sister and daughter to some he is talking about ,but Isn t it some sort of a selfishness not to learn to recenter these emotion in a proactive way?with a little more tact,a constructive passion? Jarrabna soua zan we have tried thinking bad about people why don t we try to think good of people and trust Allah swt mercy and guidance. What i see here is a lack of confidence in ourselves,in our values and in Allah swt.

Sisters and Brothers this is Hell we are talking about, what kind of human beings are we to wish this for our fellow human i swear to you am getting very emotional by saying this .

The Prophet Sallah llahu aleihi wassallam was not like that,he was the first to extend his hands towards people,the first to extend his hands towards peace and reconciliation.Anyways am out here .Be good i leave you in the care of Allah swt.

Appa what can I say besides that faith shines through you ,it gives me hope,may allah continue to bless you with his light and mercy.

JENGIOVE ,i ve read some of your posts,your genuine approach gives me hope as well.If you are one day you gonna be a "terrific" Muslim , beside the sarcasm ,i think you are one of the most Muslim non Muslim i know whatever that might be,i bet you don t know it yourself yet.May allah blesss you.

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"You are quaffing drink from a hundred fountains: whenever any of these hundred yields less, your pleasure is diminished. But when the sublime fountain gushes from within you, no longer need you steal from the other fountains."Jalaluddin Rumi
Rumi
Silence is the language of God everything else is bad translation Jalaluddin Rumi
 

IHearIslam

make dua 4 ma finals
Assalamu alaykum,

I thank you for opening this thread....I previously responded to the original thread we're discussing here. I hope I was not too harsh on the brother, if I was, I apologizes Ipanda :) and I ask Allaah's forgiveness!

with that said, I just wanted to say I dont understand why the thread was closed?? anyway, as you said, we cannot ignore the realities of today and attractions do happen.....but how we deal with them is a choice we make. We as humans in no way can stop being attracted to so and so......but we can and should have a choice on how we deal with that attraction.

I was the one who mentioned loving Allaah more than anything. When love comes this is one of the tests !! that is why I mentioned Allaah there. Of course we have different levels on that issue of loving Allaah more than anything, but like I said. When the matter comes down to this...its a test for us to either fail, or pass. May Allaah make it easy for us.

There are so many cases like this in this world, ignoring the issue does not help,but what is the solution?? I dont know, and I would like to leave that question for a discussion insha'Allaah!

feelings and emotions are somewhat uncontrollable, so Ipanda and the sister are not wrong in this matter. They feel what any of us can feel any day. Sometimes, we get to the point where we just cannot handle what our heart tells us. Sometimes we feel pain because of love. It all comes down to the test of God. I ask Allaah ta'ala to help us.

A massage to brother Ipanda:: first I apologize if I hurt your feelings.
Second, I have seen the last post of yours, we dont hate you because you're a non-Muslim. In fact, we don't have a reason to hate you. If it seems like that.....I ask you to give us a second chance insha'Allaah.
Third, Its not like we dont care about your feelings, we do. I for ones had a girls heart in mind. I am a sister and I understand the pain another sister can go through just in the name of love. Thus I mentioned her and not you.....and the reason is because of my belief that most of the pain comes to the girl in a relationship.....basically because we're naturally emotional. I did not mention you not because I dont care about your feelings, but because I assumed you'd be stronger when it comes to letting go. If my assumptions are wrong....forgive me :)

and finally, I ask Allaah to guide you because you seem to have the right intentions. I ask Allaah to bless your soul with the beauty of Islam and comfort your heart with the pureness of belief. ameen

Hope you come back to TTI....:) we'd love to hear from you again.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

When you youngsters get to be my age you understand there is so much to life..and we make so many many mistakes..and there are times when only Allah subhana talla listens to us you learn to forgive everyone. You count the blessings that Allah showers us with each moment.
We do not know blessings until we depend upon Him at all times. We are dependent on Him and Him alone.

I am so grateful we have this thread. We are on the eve of an Eid..let us beg for forgiveness and let us supplicate that He out of His Treasures give us hearts.
It is His World, His Creation. we are but to celebrate His Glory. When we find once in a blue moon our hearts beating in harmony with another heart and we try to do right..that is a good thing.
I pray the young man stays with us.
 

MohammedMaksudul

May Allah Forgive us
:salam2:

Yes, I do agree that our approach with ipanda was somewhat unexpected by him and our jumping to rules was a bit too much for him. The way as suggested by some members should have been a more harmonic one, where we could invite him to Islam. I too probably did the same mistake, May Allah Ta'ala forgive me.

But there are some points, I would like to mention.

They might not be committing zina right now, but there is no guarantee that they won't in the future.

The fight with shaytan does not end till ones death. So, no one is immune from the devil no matter how pious the person is.

Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi 3118, Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab , Tirmidhi transmitted it.

The Prophet :saw: said, "Whenever a man is alone with a woman the Devil makes a third."

Islam requires us not to follow the footsteps of the shaytan.

I disagree with this following message from Sister AmatuAllah4lyf:
feelings and emotions are somewhat uncontrollable, so Ipanda and the sister are not wrong in this matter. They feel what any of us can feel any day. Sometimes, we get to the point where we just cannot handle what our heart tells us. Sometimes we feel pain because of love. It all comes down to the test of God. I ask Allaah ta'ala to help us.

Sister, Islam has rules and regulations if followed prevents us from growing such kind of feelings. Since, Islam prevents us from unnecessary interaction with the opposite gender there is no way one can be excused for growing such feelings. In this case, ipanda may be new to Islam but the sister I guess was not. I pray the sister realizes this and takes the right decision such as asking ipanda to go talk to an Imaam about this and make it clear to him that only way they can give a fruitful end to this feelings is through marriage. And that can only take place, if he reverts to be a muslim. But then again, I think brother ipanda should study on Islam more and understand the beauty of Islam and accept it for Allah's sake only. Allah knows best and May Allah forgive our shortcomings.
 

Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
Assalamu alaikum

As indicated by brother MohammedMaksudul, we need to be careful not to drift away from what Islam dictates in regards to how a Muslim/ah treats relationship with the opposite sex rather than be influenced by our own desires or surrender to them.

I will start this by reminding everyone what sister ShyHijabi stated concerning the original issue not for the sake of starting the argument all over again, but as a matter of fact:

"A "romantic" relationship outside of marriage is strictly forbidden in Islam. Your friend needs to remember there are clear lines in Islam about allowed and forbidden. If you truly care for your friend you would leave her alone, this relationship will do nothing but hurt her and lead her away from her family and faith. It sounds selfish that you care only about your feelings instead of the consequences of your actions."

Secondly, if any brother or sister does find him/herself in such a situation, be sure that it is your time to be tested. How steadfast a believer is in his/her faith can be revealed only when the person faces the test. Therefore, our sincerety or the lack of it will be established by the choice we make.

It is my personal opinion that perhaps what Allah loves more than anything about His servants is when they have all options available to them and they are able to choose either, but they choose the pleasure of Allah obove their own desires. Only then will the beauty of faith be experienced. Afterall, this is what the purpose of this life is all about, to be tested.

I will end by the following translation of Quran from the book "Even Angels Ask":


We certainly have created man to face distress. Does he think that no one has power over him? He will say: I have wasted much wealth. Does he think that no one sees him? Have We not given him two eyes, and a tongue and two lips and pointed out to him the two conspicuous ways? But he attempts not the uphill climb; and what will make you comprehend the uphill climb? [It is] to free a slave, or to feed in a day of hunger an orphan nearly related, or the poor one lying in the dust. Then he is of those who believe and exhort one another to patience and exhort one another to mercy. (90:4-17)

Truthful are those who attempt their own uphill and succeed in climbing it.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Let us leave them to decide what is correct. Insha'Allah, he can talk to her parents. He may become the most pious of Muslims.
He has displayed courage and good manners. He has stated he sees nothing wrong with Islam.
Why not encourage him to convert. Why not open our arms to him. Love comes in all forms and colors. Let us welcome him to the Home of Love and Peace.

( and mind our own business!)
 

JenGiove

Junior Member
Assalaam walaikum,

Let us leave them to decide what is correct. Insha'Allah, he can talk to her parents. He may become the most pious of Muslims.
He has displayed courage and good manners. He has stated he sees nothing wrong with Islam.
Why not encourage him to convert. Why not open our arms to him. Love comes in all forms and colors. Let us welcome him to the Home of Love and Peace.

( and mind our own business!)

:salam2: Dear Elder Sister Aapa,

I think in this thread, the Brother's situation is just being used as an exaple of a much bigger and much more common problem. At this point, I think we can all agree that the previous thread may not have been handled in the best of ways and that we all hope that because of our words he was not pushed away.

This thread however is more about discussing situations LIKE that and it is just a friendly discussion and constructive reminder about the Qur'an's message, the Hadith's and how to handle situations when we encounter them.

This thread is about learning, not condemnation.
 

Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
Wa alaikumussalam!

Dear Aapa, the reason I felt the need for "Can we discuss it?" was my anxiety about some very real and practical issues as I stated in my first lines "...might be a reality for many sisters living in the west, but...". Unfortunately, one such example has just been reported by our sister ShanazZ in "Such a twisted world".

It is a real problem and can have consequences even for those who have not come to this world yet. As much as I may be inclined to mind my own business, I care about my brothers and sisters.
 

MohammedMaksudul

May Allah Forgive us
:salam2:

Respected sisters and brothers, I hope we all understand that this thread is a discussion on a problem that is faced by many young muslim men and women around the globe. I guess by now we all agree that the thread opened by ipanda was probably not handled correctly. And the matter discussed here is seen as rather a general issue than a personal one. Not that we don't want him to revert to Islam. if it is true what we claim of being Muslim then it is shameful. Sister Aapa, we are not the enemy of ipanda and nor are we trying to shoo him away from Islam. Astaghfirullah. May Allah guide all of us.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Thank you. We are in need of open discussion. We are going to continue to have more complex inter-cultural situations. Brother Justoneinamillion posted an article on globalization. It is a good read.

We have to provide structure to our enclaves of Muslims. We forget people are human. We send our children to gain the best education but we forget there maybe 20 Muslim girls in a campus of 5000 students. People do not live in isolated islands.

Often young girls do not even realize they are socializing with others due to the casualness of the culture. And youth is known for being heedless. We can not keep girls locked up. They run away. And please do not tell me it does not happen. Women my age ran away when they were young.

I do not have the answers. I believe we can not close threads of this nature. They have to be discussed. Our young men have it easy. They come and go as they please. We need to listen to what our young girls are feeling. We have to support them.

I am pleased that we are discussing this in a non-emotional manner. I am not being critical..I have seen better and I have seen worse things happen. I am just saying lets relax...the world will not come to an end over this.
 
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