Change in Saudi Arabia....

MehmetHilmi

Junior Member
Very very interesting and a worthwhile read.

Everyone is on a journey to find the truth. If you impose you're own puritanical literalist interpretation of Islam on others, you will possibly ruin their experience. What might be holy truth to you might be poison to another. So the ultraconservative segment of Saudi population should back off. Lest they want to see hordes of new apostates appear in their lands.

PE for girls will lead to prostitution? Wow.
 

Um Ibrahim

Alhamdulilah :)
All this article is promoting is, well globalization. Yes it does have some good points here and there but for the most part it's only talking about what is considered good and just according to "western laws/views." Why is it so bad for men and women to be separated? Why? Because that's not how we do things in the western world, therefore it's bad?! Seriously! So the only way that country will be recognized as a 'progressive' nation is if all the women forego of their hijabs, all the youths leave the masjids and take religion as nothing but ancient history and Islam is completely taken out of politics? In other words, we want Mecca and Medina to become just like New York and LA? It's sad is what it is.

It's sad that a woman who was mentioned in that article is no longer Muslim and someone seems to be excited and happy about it. If they want integration of men and women, night clubs and music concerts, then they really shouldn't be surprised to see more women getting raped, more teenage pregnancies and more drugs and drinking etc. because that's what's happening in these so-called progressive western nations.
 

Precious Star

Junior Member
All this article is promoting is, well globalization. Yes it does have some good points here and there but for the most part it's only talking about what is considered good and just according to "western laws/views." Why is it so bad for men and women to be separated? Why? Because that's not how we do things in the western world, therefore it's bad?! Seriously! So the only way that country will be recognized as a 'progressive' nation is if all the women forego of their hijabs, all the youths leave the masjids and take religion as nothing but ancient history and Islam is completely taken out of politics? In other words, we want Mecca and Medina to become just like New York and LA? It's sad is what it is.

It's sad that a woman who was mentioned in that article is no longer Muslim and someone seems to be excited and happy about it. If they want integration of men and women, night clubs and music concerts, then they really shouldn't be surprised to see more women getting raped, more teenage pregnancies and more drugs and drinking etc. because that's what's happening in these so-called progressive western nations.

To the contrary, the researcher who was fired, and who is referred to in the article, says that segregation was never part of Islamic society, and that is why hijab, modesty etc is required. Why would Islam order hijab if the genders are segregated anyway? I don't think the article in any way says we must abandon hijab and start drinking in order to be progressive. To the contrary, I think we have to acknowledge that the genders are segregated to such a degree and extent that men are sexually assaulting girls out of frustration. They just don't know how to behave. It is abnormal. Look at that 3 year old baby girl who was raped by her father? There is another 5 year old girl that was raped by a cleric. There are many other such stories which I don't have time to reproduce here.

The article does not say Saudi's are dropping their religion. They are saying that they have a different view on all the restrictions. Women get raped in muslim countries ALL THE TIME - please do not suggest that it is a western phenomenon. The Yazdini women in Syria and Iraq that are being targeted by Isis - they are not muslim but they are covered, they wear hijab -- they are being raped. Talk to women in Africa who are muslim - they are being raped every day in refugee camps, while walking to get water from wells, when the girls are walking to school.

And, in Canada, a Saudi diplomat yesterday was stopped for drunk driving. He made the news because he was protected by diplomatic immunity - and therefore he will not be criminally charged.
 

Um Ibrahim

Alhamdulilah :)
Let's be honest sister. If this man really did do his research well, he would've found out that men and women were in fact segregated. The Prophet used to dedicate a different day just for the women so that he may teach them and answer all of their questions regarding Islam. Men and were also segregated in the Masjid. They didn't sit side by side with the men. They were in the back. Matter of fact there is a well known hadith regarding this very topic where the Prophet said the best line for men is the first and the best line for women in jamaa'ah in the masjid was the last. This is all pointing to the segregation of men and women.

There is a whole lot of things that are haraam being promoted in this article. And a lot of things that are Islamic, are simply being called "wahabisim" whatever that means.

I never once said that rape and bad things does not happen in Muslim countries because we all know bad things happen all over the world. But you cannot tell me the statistics are the same when it comes to fornication, STDs, drunk driving and so many other social problems.

You have mentioned that imam in more than one thread now. Yes what he did is disgusting and unbelievable. But how many imams do we hear about doing such things on a daily basis? Almost none.

My issue with this article is its message. Let's forget if segregation is Islamic or not. Even if it's just cultural, what I don't understand is why is it considered bad? There are many benefits in it for women in their opinion. So why can't this author and us in the west accept that and move on?
 

MehmetHilmi

Junior Member
Why is it so bad for men and women to be separated?

Why is it bad for women and men not to be segregated?

In other words, we want Mecca and Medina to become just like New York and LA? It's sad is what it is.

Mecca already looks like LA or New York. With all those tall buildings on top of demolished historical sites. Saudis themselves are destroying their own heritage and replacing it with western looking buildings.

It's sad that a woman who was mentioned in that article is no longer Muslim and someone seems to be excited and happy about it. If they want integration of men and women, night clubs and music concerts, then they really shouldn't be surprised to see more women getting raped, more teenage pregnancies and more drugs and drinking etc. because that's what's happening in these so-called progressive western nations.

Sad. Yes. But what should we do? Cover it up and hope no one apostatizes while we continuously bash them with our narrow minded creeds and opinions? If someone wants to listen to music at a concert or wants to hang out at a cafe with mixed friends, then why not?

The so-called progressive nations are the nations that invented this medium (the internet). They are the nations that built your cars and provided you with modern healthcare. We did a lot too, but how long ago?

In the end, segregation creates an environment where women get less opportunities. Women are expected to stay home according to the Saudi "cult of domesticity", therefore facilities and job opportunities for women are naturally less.

Do you know Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness? Do you know that those three concepts are enshrined within Sharia. What seems to you as a western way of thinking are actually in our deen. It's just that the modernist Wahhabi movement has changed that and fed people with lies.

Sorry if I spoke to harsh.
 

Precious Star

Junior Member
Let's be honest sister. If this man really did do his research well, he would've found out that men and women were in fact segregated. The Prophet used to dedicate a different day just for the women so that he may teach them and answer all of their questions regarding Islam. Men and were also segregated in the Masjid. They didn't sit side by side with the men. They were in the back. Matter of fact there is a well known hadith regarding this very topic where the Prophet said the best line for men is the first and the best line for women in jamaa'ah in the masjid was the last. This is all pointing to the segregation of men and women.

There is a whole lot of things that are haraam being promoted in this article. And a lot of things that are Islamic, are simply being called "wahabisim" whatever that means.

I never once said that rape and bad things does not happen in Muslim countries because we all know bad things happen all over the world. But you cannot tell me the statistics are the same when it comes to fornication, STDs, drunk driving and so many other social problems.

You have mentioned that imam in more than one thread now. Yes what he did is disgusting and unbelievable. But how many imams do we hear about doing such things on a daily basis? Almost none.

My issue with this article is its message. Let's forget if segregation is Islamic or not. Even if it's just cultural, what I don't understand is why is it considered bad? There are many benefits in it for women in their opinion. So why can't this author and us in the west accept that and move on?

I think Brother Mehmet said it correctly, that when you are completely segregated the women get less opportunities - for work, for earning income, for access to health care, for education, for transportation. It is very difficult to find a workplace that has separate office space for men and women, separate "bosses" for the women and for the men, etc. An employer would have to have a lot of money to set up that type of structure in his/her office. So the default becomes a male-oriented workplace.

Imagine, if I lived in a segregated society I would not be earning income right now. I would have no way to get to work if I was not allowed to drive. And if I was sick and needed medical attention, I would have to seek out and find a female-only doctor --- which would be difficult in itself because the female-only doctors would have to have been educated in female-only universities and trained with female-only doctors....It all results in a vicious circle that proves no benefit to women.

And if I need repairs to my car, where would I be able to have that done? What type of automotive garage employs "women for women"? If my car breaks down, I have to go to a garage and deal with male servicemen in an open environment.

This is why Islam created hijab and modesty. This is why men are instructed to lower their gaze. Yes, of course women will pray separate from men. Of course women will seek knowledge in a forum separate from men - why would they ask questions about menstruation, breastfeeding etc in front of the men? Even non-muslims observe those types of boundaries!

Realistically, it is only women who are married and well-supported financially in all aspects, that can thrive in a segregated culture. those who are not married, including women who are divorced, will just struggle, struggle, struggle.
 

Um Ibrahim

Alhamdulilah :)
I never discredited any country's inventions. And again NO nation is all bad. There are good and bad in every country or nation but all people have different values. This is my point. I understand that men and women will come in contact in life with each other and that they do need to work together and live together but in Islam separation of the sexes is encouraged when possible. This cannot be denied.
 

Precious Star

Junior Member
I never discredited any country's inventions. And again NO nation is all bad. There are good and bad in every country or nation but all people have different values. This is my point. I understand that men and women will come in contact in life with each other and that they do need to work together and live together but in Islam separation of the sexes is encouraged when possible. This cannot be denied.

I agree, no nation is all bad, and no nation is all good.
 

zaman-gm

Junior Member
What is meant by change?
Simply it is nothing but use of modern technology to make our life style(equality of man and woman, human rights, education, politics, culture....... everything) easier. Important things is our mind set, if that technology keep us in good relation with our faith and our ultimate destination then it is OK. But there is always a but as much as this civilization cope up and concentrate with this modern life style it become difficult to adjust whit that destination. No need to argue just look over the history and that prophecy that this world will fulled up with unbelievers at the edge line of the day of QuamaH.
So step up with care. We already have taken many bad decision for our self.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Lame article't. .

No monarchy in Islam.

This is not an article about your deen. It is about who cares. The bottom line is simple. You choose your deen.
Who cares what a sociologist or an anthropologist thinks...can they help you on the day of Judgement.

If people want to hang out and play so be it.

No-one can dictate faith.

Silly people.

Nothing in the article mentioned the Prophet,swas, or the Quran. Ignorant fools,
 

Precious Star

Junior Member
Lame article't. .

No monarchy in Islam.

This is not an article about your deen. It is about who cares. The bottom line is simple. You choose your deen.
Who cares what a sociologist or an anthropologist thinks...can they help you on the day of Judgement.

If people want to hang out and play so be it.

No-one can dictate faith.

Silly people.

Nothing in the article mentioned the Prophet,swas, or the Quran. Ignorant fools,

No article in Foreign Policy magazine is about your deen. The articles in that publication are secular and do not quote the Prophet or the Quran.
 
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