Video Christianity and Islam Transcript (Deedat & Gary)

medoaaa21

Junior Member
this transcript is only for Ahmed Deedat and Gary Miller ... i still didn't finish the Q&A part
Also errors may be included which means it requires revision because i am an Arab and there are no copy rights

links
http://www.4shared.com/file/gRuQCGj4/garry_miller_transcript__islam.html

http://www.4shared.com/file/ad2sXOt9/Ahmed_Deedat_transcript__islam.html


Ahmed Deedat​


السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
May the peace and blessing of god be upon you all
Mr chairman and brothering
Podly P O D L Y .. podly the American in his book “the messenger” he gives the relative strength of two of the mightiest religious forces on earth today
Those of Islam and Christianity
He doesn’t give us figures
He does not tell us that the Muslim today’s number one thousand million and the Christians one thousand two hundred million
But what he says is “that these muslims and Christians who are competing for the aligns of mankind that they” he says ”that there are more prophesying Christians in the world than prophesying Muslims but” he says “there are more practicing muslims in the world than practicing Christians”
If I said this on my own account plowing my own plum pert who would not have carried much weight it makes me happy to quote an outsider an American and a Christian at that
What is really the difference between Islam and Christianity
I may share with you that Islam is the only non Christian faith which makes it an article of faith for its followers to believe in Jesus
No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus
What he is made to believe is .. that Jesus Christ was one of mightiest messengers of god
He is made to believe that he was the messiah
He is made to believe that he was born miraculously without any male intervention
Which many modern day Christians do not believe today
And he is mad to believe the muslim is mad to believe that Jesus Christ he gave life to the dead by god’s permission and he healed those born blind and the libbers by god’s permission
He gets all this from his book of authority the holly Quran
It is your privilege to get one
The MYM book stall in the corner .. there .. they are selling them for five Rands each
Two thousand pages .. an encyclopedia of two thousand pages for five Rands each
You will agree with me that’s very very cheep
An if you can’t afford it muslims as well as non muslim you can write to the Islamic Propagation Center and tell us that look I am earning five hundred Rands a month but I can’t afford a Quran and get one by return post
Tell us why we should give you one for nothing
I am not talking about the cultist, the born again missionary .. look he has to pay for it as well as we have to pay for the bibles from the bible house
But I am talking about the general public .. if you are interested in knowing the Quran and if you can’t afford it write for one and get one free
Now the point of real difference what are the only .. the only points of real difference between the muslim and the Christian is this .. are these
Number one .. the muslim says that jesus is not god
Number two .. the muslim says that jesus is not the begotten son of god because god does not beget
The muslim says that god is not a Trion god because there is no such thing as three in one and one in three
The muslim says that jesus Christ was not killed nor crucified and hence he was not resurrected
There is no such thing as resurrection
These are points of real differences between Muslims and Christians
But believe me Mr. chairman .. ladies and gentle men
That this wide gulf between the Muslim and the Christian between Islam and Christianity is been rapidly bridged
The Christians are coming towards Islam
I am not talking about the cultist
I am talking about the learned men of Christianity who are described in the holly Quran in these beautiful words
I am quoting from Surah “Maeda” chapter five verse 85 it says “ولتجدن أقربهم مودة للذين آمنوا الذين قالوا إنا نصارى”
And nearest in them .. among them in faith .. in love .. and nearest among them in love to the believers to the muslims .. will thaw find those who say we are Christians
“ذلك بأن منهم قسيسين” because among them are men devoted to learning
Among the Christians say the wholly Quran are men devoted to learning
“ورهباناً” and men who renounce the world
“وأنهم لا يستكبرون” and people who are not arrogant
Abdulla Yousef Ali … the commentator of this translation which I was showing to you
In his note No. 789 on this verse comments…..
He says the meaning is not that they call them self’s Christians but they are such sincere Christians that they appreciate Muslim vetches
As did they have a seines to whom Muslim refuge is went during the persecution in Mecca
They would say it is true we are Christians but we understand your point of view
And we know you are good men
Abdulla Yousf Ali concludes that these Christians they are Muslims at heart
That these Christians they are Muslims at heart never mind whatever label they apply for them self’s
And I can give you many examples from history of this type of good learned men among the Christians
But time is short
So let me give you some brief references from recent times
Number 1
In the time magazine July 15 1974 .. there was a series of essays under the heading “who are history’s great leaders”
And among the contributors there is one James Gavin .. described as retired a.. commander of chief .. A commander in chief from the American army
This James Gavin in his list of the most .. the greatest leaders .. he says number one Muhammad “ص”
And number two he puts his own lord and savior Jesus Christ .. number two
Then .. in America again .. an American by the name Michael Eghart of the heart publishing company
Described as an astronomer and a mathematician
This man he writes a book of 572 pages .. giving the most influential men in history from the time of Adam up to current times
And in his list of one hundred most influential man.. he puts the holly prophet of Islam Muhammad number one
And .. surprisingly .. he puts his own lord and savior Jesus Christ number three
Then .. that is going a bet far .. coming back to our own country
The charming Bill Charmils.. he will be on TV tonight .. on what is called cross Christians.. who will be on TV tonight
This Bill Charmils .. at the end of a lively debate on the subject of “Islam and Christianity”.. the very subject of this afternoon’s discussion
It was in essay PC TV “Islam and Christianity”
He commented at the end of the talk.. in these charming words
“well I think it can be said from this discussion that there is at present somewhat more accommodation on the Islamic side for the founder of Christianity than there is in the Christian side for the founder of Islam .. but the significance of that is we leave it to you the viewer to determine, but I do hope you’d agree with us that it’s a good thing that we are talking together”
He said .. I think it can be said from this discussion referring to the discussion on TV.. that there is at present somewhat more accommodation on the Islamic side for the founder of Christianity than there is in the Christian side for the founder of Islam
That there are more tolerance .. there is more compassion on the Islamic side for Jesus Christ than there is on the Christian side for the founder of Islam
He said what the significance of that is .. we leave it to you the viewer to determine
But I do think you will agree with me that it is a good thing that we are talking together
Mr. chairman ladies and gentlemen
You are all privileged to see that video tape of that meeting “Islam and Christianity” that great debate that took place on TV
You are privileged to see that tape absolutely free of charge
On VHS or peter max .. whatever you choose .. whatever format absolutely free of charge if you want to see it .. you can see it
You can get it from the propagation center
But you will have to put with us 25 Rands security deposit
Because after giving this tape to you we haven’t got the man power to start running behind you to find out where you are with this tape
So you leave with us 25 Rands security .. after a week you return it and take your money back in full
We don’t hire it.. we will lend it to you
And on that …. On this program you will see something more than .. what Bill charmels tells you
You see .. you will find on this tape .. The reason why bill charmels says .. you know.. that there is more sympathy from the Islamic that there is in the Christian side towards Islam
You will find a classical example of a sickness
You see th…. There is a current sickness prevailing among the Christians of the world
They call it a *!*!*!*! again
It is a cult that has been created recently .. where they now say that look previously with the decibels of Jesus they had the spirit with them
But now they say we have it in us
The spirit is in them .. inside .. fills them up
And I had one of this sick persons coming to my office .. wanting to share this sickness with me
I asked him now you have the spirit in you.. he said yes
I said it permeates every fiber of your being.. he said yes
So I said you can’t be tempted
If the spirit of god fills you up .. is there room for the devil to get in
He says no..
So I said you can’t be tempted.. he says no
So I said congratulations
Congratulations.. I said you know you’re gre.. greater than your own God
You are greater than your own lord and savior Jesus Christ
Because Jesus Christ was tempted by the devil .. and you can’t be tempted
Amazing .. you cant be tempted but jesus was tempted
So said no no no .. I can also be tempted
Then I said in that case you haven’t got the spirit
Its either way .. if you have the spirit then you are greater than Jesus
Because Jesus was tempted , his dispels were tempted
You are greater than them all
And if you are .. if you can be tempted then you haven’t got the spirit
Rather you have something rightly described by the holly prophet of Islam ..
He said that “شيطان” “شيطان” the spirit of evil coses through the body of man like the blood
This is why .. “شيطان” is cossing through the body of man like the blood
As the blood is throwing in your Veins.. this devilishness evil inclinations temptations are also cossing through your body
So somebody asked him .. he said what about you
And he was humble enough to admit .. he said me too but mine is under control
So .. talking about these learned Christians .. I said there are these learned Christians .. they are coming towards islam
These are learned men .. not sick people
Our biggest points of differences between the Christian and ourselves
Thing that grated the Muslim most was this expression that Jesus is the only begotten son.. begotten not made
This word begetting .. was greeting Muslims
And it is grating according the to the recitation red by our “قارئ”
He red those words .. very strong words
He said “وقالوا اتخذ الرحمن ولدا” and they say that “الرحمن” the merciful God .. he has begotten a son
“الله سبحانه وتعالى” god almighty .. he says in answer to that he said “لقد جئتم شيئا إدا” it’s one of the most abominable asserts any one can make
“تكاد السماوات يتفطرن منه” and the sky are ready to burst
“وتنشق الأرض” and the earth to split asunder
“وتخر الجبال هدا” and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin
Such a horrible swearing .. that you say that god begot a son
Because begetting is an animal act .. it belongs to the lower animal functions of sex
How can you attribute such quality to God
So .. the learned men of Christianity .. 32 scholars of the highest eminents backed by 50 cooperating denominations of the Christians
They went and produced the revised standard version of the bible
And they through this word begotten out unceremoniously
This word begotten in John 3:16 every Christian in the world knows it
The most translated sentence .. of any sentence in the world
John 3:16
Now .. look for it in the revised standard version of the bible .. its thrown out as a fabrication.. as an interpolation
I say here .. it’s about time that we shake hands with this Christian scholars
We say than.. thank you very much
Coming closer to Islam
The word that was grating us .. they threw it out
To appease us? .. no .. because they found that it was not there in the original manuscripts
This was somebody who had pushed it in
It’s not supposed to be there .. its thrown out
I have the bible here after the meeting if you like to check it up .. check it up .. the word begotten is not to be found
Another point of real difference between the Muslim and the Christian
Is this called .. thing called trinity .. the holy trinity
Where the Christian say the father is God the son is God and the Holy Ghost is God but they are not three gods but one god
You Remember the formula?.. every Christian has it on his lips
He says the father is almighty the son is almighty and the holy ghost is almighty but they are not three almighty’s but one almighty
He continues .. the father is a person the son is a person and the holy ghost is a person but they are not three persons but one person
I am asking the English man what language are you speaking?
You said person .. person .. person but not three persons but one person
What language is that .. (but) what of course that is the language of religion
Now .. the only solid basis on which this .. dogma .. could be based is to be found in the king James version .. in the roman catholic version of the bible in the first epistle of John chapter 5 verse 7
It reads .. for there are three that be record in heaven .. The father the word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one
That is the clearest aclo.. approximation to the trinity in the Christian bible
Now that also .. has been unceremoniously thrown out of this book
By who? .. not by Muslim scholars.. not by Jewish scholars not by Hindu scholars but by 32 scholars Christian scholars of the highest eminent packed by 50 cooperating denominations
They threw it out as a fabrication .. its not there
So I said congratulations to you .. my Christian learned men .. I say I’d like to kiss your hand
Look they are coming to Islam
They are coming closer and closer to Islam
With regards to the crucifixion .. with regards to the resurrection
We have given you a pan flit
Jesus as only a messenger
At the back of that pan flit .. you will find a shock survey of Anglican bishops
A shock survey of Anglican bishops
These are paid servants of the Anglican Church
Men of the highest order of learning
The most respected people in Christendom among the author ox
In “our daily news” of the 25th of June .. this year
Daik lan from London .. it is said .. more than half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God
You are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ is God
And this was a point of real difference between the Muslim and the Christian
They threw it out
They said .. if you don’t believe in that you are still an Anglican
They don’t want to lose you .. to Islam
Because that is what the real point of difference is .. we say that Jesus is not God .. the Christian say that Jesus is god
But more than half of the bishops now are telling you .. that you don’t have to believe that Jesus is God .. that means he is not God
It is not a foundation of your faith any more
So .. I take off my hat to these Anglican bishops .. as we all odd to do
We take off our hat
What was the purpose? .. what was the motive?
Which Arab .. “شيخ” bribed these bishops? .. tell me .. who bribed them?
To go away with the main .. the bed rock of Christendom is the divinity of Christ .. they say look you don’t have to believe in that any more
And further in the same article .. you read it at home
That... the poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the bible
These are something more like ferry tails
These are like ferry tails … it might could have happened
This resurrection of Jesus might not have happened
And we have given you a book … free … crucifixion or CRUCI-FICTION
Absolutely free
And you read it … and you can’t help agreeing that it’s a FICTION … F I C T I O N … FICTION
Not fixion
So … these learned men of the Christendom … described in the holy Quran as learned
That they are coming towards Islam
I said congratulations … we take off our hat to you
And .. only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 out of 31 work out the percentage … at home …
They said that Jesus Christ is nothing other than “Gods’ supreme agent”
That’s all we are saying
That is what the Quran says
يا أهل الكتاب
Oh people of the book … oh learned people
لا تغلوا في دينكم
He said do not go too extreme in your religion
ولا تقولوا على الله إلا الحق
And don’t say anything about god except the truth
إنما المسيح
Most certainly the messiah
عيسى ابن مريم
Jesus the son of Merry
رسول الله
Is the messenger of Allah
Look …. This is what the Muslim is saying “is a messenger of Allah”
Now the Anglican pushups 11 out of 31 .. they say .. that he .. 19 out of 31 .. that he is only a messenger
Now this .. th.. this .. there is a message for the Muslim
That it is about time that we share Islam with our fellow country man
Look the learned man when he makes a discovery he makes it known by the masses they don’t know what’s going on
They are like sheep .. they are still kept their .. in the staple
We have to free them
Bring them over an say look … these are your learned men
They are confessing .. without any coercion .. there is no Muslim with a sword over his head
You remember the lone saying that Islam was spread at the point of the sword
I said witch sword is forcing these learned people to tell you ..
That whatever the Muslim says they are agreeing with us .. step by step .. step by step
But they are dragging their feet
It is about time that we push them .. rush them
Say look man .. this .. what is different now between us and you
Whatever you say .. the difference that existed that graded the Muslim you have taken them out
You say we don’t believe in them
So why not shake hands .. and become Muslims
In the words of the holly Quran .. I’ll end this brief talk by saying .. as we are made to say
قل
Tell them
يا أهل الكتاب
Oh people of the book .. oh learned people .. oh people with a scripture
تعالوا
Come
إلى كلمة سواء بيننا وبينكم
That we come to common terms as between us and you
Let us get onto a common platform
And that common platform .. this almighty god . he gives it to us in this holly book
He says
ألا نعبد إلا الله
That we worship none but Allah
ولا نشرك به شيئاً
And that we associate no partners with him
ولا يتخذ بعضنا بعضاً أرباباً من دون الله
And that we do not take from among ourselves lords and patrons other than Allah
فإن تولوا
But if they turn back
فقولوا اشهدوا بأنا مسلمون
Tell them .. that we at least are Muslims
We have submitted our well to the well of god
And we want you to join us in the fellowship of faith
In the brotherhood of faith
وآخر دعوانا أن الحمد لله رب العالمين
 

medoaaa21

Junior Member
Gary Miller

Gary Miller

To my Muslim friends
السلام عليكم
To Christian friends “peace be with you”
They both mean the same thing as it happens
To everyone in general “welcome”
Mr Deedat spoke and of course some things that .. aa .. Christians probably don’t like to hear
Not necessarily because they are not true things .. I mean it is true that many of the pushups of the church of England have said that Jesus is not diving .. that’s a fact they have said that
What is annoying to many Christians is to say “How could a man who calls himself a Christian say that”
In any case .. I too will say something’s that will annoy people
Something’s that may be Muslims don’t want to hear
Something’s that may be Christians don’t want to hear
But ask yourself .. is it because it wasn’t true or why does it bother me .. if you don’t like to hear what I've said
As my friend have said .. we just get into discussion , I met him for the first time I believe it was only yesterday
We found that we did that one time lived within a few hundred miles of each other in Canada for a period of about six or eight years, but unless I pumped into him on the street I don’t remember of meeting him until yesterday
He said that he went from Catholicism into Islam , I went from Catholicism toward the protestant churches
Now .. I have to clarify though first .. don’t misunderstand where we are going
I didn’t come here to the invitation of the church … mister Deedat asked me to come here
Didn’t pay me to come here
Couple of days after I got here I asked him "who is paying for this trip"
He said "we can't afford it" …. All right that’s the end of that
So nobody paid me to come here
I am invited from time to time to speak in churches and sometimes I speak at mosques and most often I simply speak in universities … in open forums
You see .. a lot of churches like what I say and a lot of churches don’t like what I say
Recently I was speaking in Vancouver in the west coast of Canada
And when I finished my speech somebody came up and told me .. how horrible it was, he said as a Christian he was very offended by what he heard and he was very upset and another man right behind him came up .. and he was a minister in the united church of Canada .. that’s the largest denomination in Canada .. he shook my hand .. he said that was beautiful .. I want your name and address .. I like what you said
So you see you can't ever paint all Christians with one brush
They come from one extreme to the other
Any two differences you can think of they will be people in between these two extremes
So please understand .. some churches appreciate what I say .. some do not
To clarify some terminology .. I was surprised to find this morning .. I looked in the news paper talking about things going on in the city today and it said "Garry Miller is going to be speaking .. an evangelist"
Well .. for years in doing evangelical work with churches .. preaching on the street corner or in a church or anywhere that I went
People will tell me "that’s evangelism you are doing .. you are an evangelist"
And I used to tell them "I prefer you wouldn’t use that word"
Because as carefully as I looked through the bible I never found the word evangelist on the lips of Jesus
I'm not saying it’s a bad word .. you want to call yourself an evangelist be my guest
Me prefer not to .. always prefer not to because I didn’t see Jesus use that word
It doesn’t mean it's wrong
I'm just trying to take only what I ever saw that he said
And he never used that word
I was surprised to hear yesterday that .. there you go my friend here told me that you got a phone call from somebody who want to know my credentials .. by what authority and power did I speak about Islam and Christianity
I was kind of surprised to hear that
The caller said he was a Christian
It's very unchristian thing to do
That’s what the Jews and the Romans and so on used to ask about the disables of Jesus you find in Acts chapter four among other places
When the disables were trying to preach … the Romans and the Jews would say "by what authority do you preach , what school did you go to ,, you are just a fisherman , how do you dare to speak"
Beside hope that’s not typical of most people , that they seem to think a Christian today has to be like a Farsi , he has through the school and get a certificate and he is approved.
I can give you credentials like that if you want to but I will be ashamed to lower myself to that level
Now .. please understand .. no matter what you think you hear me say .. I am trying to help the Christian missionary , Alright
Somebody told me a few minutes ago , you can’t help the Christian missionary if you stand on the same platform with ahmed deedat
I am trying to help the Christian missionary, listen carefully
A lot of people don’t see it that way of course
Because a lot of people muslims and Christians alike , they want to drink milk all there lives
See if you gave a baby milk and you keep giving him milk he will get bigger and bigger
But suppose you never gave him anything else but milk
After sometime he starts to get sick
There comes a time when he need meet and fruits and vegetables
Paul wrote that in one of his litters , it’s in the bible , he said lets go beyond the milk , he say we want to get into the meat
See most of the Christian community and the muslim community alike they want to come and go to their meetings on a weekly bases and hear the same old thing over and over .. don’t forget to pray ,, praise the lord ,, halleluiah and so on
They don’t want any meat ,, you see this is milk we all know this
We have to go beyond this sometimes
When I say I am trying to help the missionary ….. I am talking about this
I am saying to the missionary ,, you want to convert the muslim to Christianity , but look what you are doing instead
You say you are trying to convert the muslim ,, you write books , you have speeches and so on you want to convert muslim
Instead of converting the a muslim look what you are doing because of what you say
You see the missionary wants the muslim to start thinking , so he asks him some questions , he has discussions and so on
He plants little .. seeds
He wants the muslim to start thinking
But the missionary does not tell the muslim what to think , he just wants him to start thinking
He doesn’t tell him what to think , because the missionary usually hasn’t thought about it himself
Now that sounds serious , let me illustrate what I am getting at ,, by a few examples
The missionary says to the muslim .. does the quraan say that jesus was sinless
The muslim says yes ,, perfect man ,, never sinned
And the missionary says , does the quraan tell muhammed to repent
And the muslim says yes ,, it tells him to repent
And that’s all .. the missionary doesn’t say anything else
He hopes ,, now the muslim is going to start thinking ,, well now wait a minute (jesus never sinned but muhammed was supposed to repent) may be jesus is better
He is hoping .. but he doesn’t dare say that
Because if he says that .. if he says (do you know , a sinless man is better than a repentant sinner)
If he dares to say that he goes exactly against the teachings of jesus
If he is foolish enough to say that he goes exactly against the teachings of jesus
My advice to muslims if somebody asks you those questions (you ask him to tell you the story of the prodigal son)
Everybody knows the story in the bible .. you say the story of the prodigal son
The young man who told his father give me the money that I will get when you die .. I want it now
And the he ran away and he spent it on terrible things
Ask him to tell you that story and tell you what is the lesson of that story
Because the lesson of that story involves the complaint of the other brother in the family .. the good son
When the evil son came back and repented the father welcomed him
And the good son complained , he said I’ve never done anything wrong
And look how you treat my brother who was so bad
And his father told him how wrong in attitude that was
He said your brother was dead now he is alive
You see the perfect man does not have any preference over the sinless man or the repentant sinner .. in christianty
Make the missionary tell you the story of the lost sheep
Jesus said Mathew chapter 18 verse 12 , it starts ..
Jesus said what do you think if a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray
Does he not leave the 99 on the hills and go and search on the one that went astray
And if he finds it truly I say to you he rejoices over it more than over the 99 that never went astray
Jesus was trying to hammer that point home to his decibels
Saying don’t you dare say because .. for example .. you’ve been a faithful follower for many years that you are better than this one who became a believer yesterday
The perfect man has no precedence over the repentant sinner
In fact this whole argument would not exist if both muslims and Christians were better aware of the meaning of the word sin ,, but that’s another story we don’t have time for
To illustrate again
The missionary says to the Muslim was Jesus the messiah , and the Muslim says yes
And the missionary says,, was Muhammad the messiah
And the Muslim says no
There he stops again , hoping the Muslim will go away and think now wait a minute (Jesus is messiah but Mohamed isn’t) ,, may be Jesus is better
Well .. what you want to ask the missionary is about this word messiah
Ask him .. Jesus was the messiah , but were there any other messiahs besides Jesus
Now you find out how well he knows his bible
Because there were many ,, David , Solomon even Sires the Bergan were called messiah
It’s hard to find that in the bible because the translators covered it over , they translate the word
Messiah means anointed,, somebody picked to do a job , somebody single out and say (you .. are the one)
Every king of ancient Israel was called messiah
Now the name doesn’t look quite so special any more
It is a title, but it does not particularly elevate to some diving states
I am trying to show you that the arguments are not good enough that are being used and I see in print all the time
The missionary asks the Muslim where is the body of Jesus
And the Muslim says god took it
And the missionary says where is the body of Muhammad
And the Muslim says, it’s in Madinah in the ground
The missionary stops hoping the Muslim will go away and think (now that’s interesting , the body of Jesus is gone Muhammad is in the grave .. may be Jesus is the true messenger , Muhammad is false)
He is hoping you think that but he dare not say it
Because what you want to ask the missionary ,, is that what you mean to say
Do you mean that a dead and parried prophet is a false prophet, is that what you mean?
Make him finish it
Because if that what he means .. what does he say about Ibrahim for example
Or in Arabic to say (إبراهيم)
Jews and Muslims till now still go to the place where he is buried .. to visit his grave
Is he a false prophet because he is dead and in the ground
For that matter where is the body of Moses
The bible says god took it .. he sent an angel to take the body away .. what does it prove
What disturbs me most I guess , because even now we are seeing now finally a turnaround in the Pentecostal churches where ….
For years the Pentecostal insisted ,, you are saved not by works but by your faith
Pentecostal church starting to finally to put the two together .. now it’s faith and work side by side
What the missionary has always accused the Muslim of is to say “you people believe you are saved by works alone”
And they quote the Quran in the 32 chapter of the Quran the nineteenth verse or آية
It says if you excuse my terrible Arabic “أما الذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات فلهم جنات المأوى نزلاً بما كانوا يعملون”
Which means “and for those who believe and do good works for them gardens are refuge and entertainment for what they used to do”
They quote this verse saying “you see muslims believe they are saved by works alone”
Somehow the word is there and printed .. they don’t see it
It says آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات .. آمنو they believe وعملوا الصالحات and they do good works
They believe and they do good works, the two are together
See the arabic language the word only has to change a little pit and it becomes a different part of speech
آمنوا means they believe .. إيمان made from the same litters means what you believe, your belief, your faith
What this verse is saying is you got to have faith and works, side by side, not one, not the other, but both
Which is exactly what is found in the bible in the little book of James
Specially the second chapter of the little book of James
Now the protestant reformers at first didn’t like James very much
Marten Luther said it was an epistle of straw .. blow it away .. didn’t like it
In the second chapter of James he makes the point several times particularly in the 26 verse he says to the Christian community..
“For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”
It’s not faith or works, its faith and works together
That’s what the Muslim believe, that’s what the book of James says
Don’t tell the Muslim he believes saved by works alone, he doesn’t believe it
And he only think you are foolish because you think that’s what it says in the Quran when you quote it to him
So far my points are simply these, that discussions about the sinless Jesus or Jesus the messiah or Jesus taken out to heaven or faith and works don’t prove anything, they are not arguments that are going to lead somewhere
The complaint I have against Muslims is, sometimes you let your self be led around by the nose
Think,.. don’t just say “well the man is an expert I don’t know”
Think,.. it’s not how much you know, it’s what you do with what you know, how much do you use your head
Even the bible tells people “lets reason together”, god says “come let us reason together” in the first chapter of Isaiah
Now .. it is true that the Quran is very critical of some Jews and Christians, not all .. some Jews and Christians ,, the Quran is critical of them
In the third chapter of the Quran in the third surah , beginning about the 77th verse or ayah
It speaks of some among the Jews and Christians , it says “there is among the a group who distort the book with their tongs, you would think it is part of the book but it is no part of the book, and they say that is from god but it is not from god, it is they who tell a lie against god and well they know it”
Now the Muslim is familiar with this scripture, from his book, it says “look.. some of the Jews and Christians lie about the contents of their book, they distort it”
The Muslim has every reason to believe this is true, when he just looks at what’s offered in literature, he goes into a book store that sells bibles, and he find out there is so many different versions
And if he looked carefully he sees that.. . the newer bibles leave out some other words that are in the older bibles .. and the newer bibles have some words that aren’t in the older bibles .. something is going on that looks funny to him, and he thinks of this verse
Now of course someone is going to go away, many are probably going to go away and say “did I stood here and I insulted bible translators, because it’s the translators of the bible that do that”,,, I’m not
I’ll be happy to insult a few, because they do this kind of thing they are guilty of manipulation
But just as Jesus used to talk to a crowd of people, he told them what he wanted to tell them and every so often he see someone in the audience a faracy or somebody that was misleading the people and he point him out, say “that one is a liar”
He was not diplomatic, that’s why he got into so much trouble from place to place
Because when he saw a liar he pointed him out as such,,, I’m not going to do that but I’m just showing you, if you speak harshly at someone you are only following the example of Christ
He found that there was a time and place to single out the people who led others into unbelief
You see some translators of the bible are honest
And they fight with their contemporary over the proper translation, to say you’ve changed that, it should be this. They fight about it
Two of them for example are Goodspeed and makhphet , who’s bibles are printed under their own name because no church would pack them up
They were too honest
As I said the Quran is critical of some Jews and Christians
It says in the third Surah that the Quran is (فرقان) in Arabic it means criterion
It explains in the third verse that the Quran is supposed to be used as the basis of judging which is true and which is false in their scriptures
It says in the fifth Surah that the Quran reveals much of what the Jews and Christians used to hide
Now of course the Jew and the Christian doesn’t like to hear that
But they do quote some of the Quran back to the Muslim
But they do it badly is what I am trying to tell you
They quote it back badly in this way, they try to make it serve their purpose
There is no escaping… the Quran says the Jews and Christians they hide things they change things and so on
So there is no sense in trying to find a verse some where to prove that “No .. no the Quran says that every thing in the bible is true”, but that’s what people do
In the fifth chapter of the Quran they quote a verse… again if you excuse my Arabic
Which says “وأنزلنا إليك الكتاب بالحق مصدقاً لما بين يديه من الكتاب”
They quote this and it says.. the translation is .. speaking of the Quran that it is sent down to the prophet it says “and we sent down to you the book in truth confirming that which they possessed of the book before
And you see the Christian says .. you see there, the Quran says the bible is true
It says the Quran was sent down to confirm .. to say its truthful what they have in their book
That’s what this sentence says if you stop there, but that’s the middle of the sentence.. there is two more words in the sentence
They are “ومهيمناً عليه”
You see the whole text says “we have sent down the book in truth confirming that which they had of the book before this …. And as a watcher over it (their book)”
مهيمناً is the Arabic word, مهيمناً is an interesting word, it means quality control
You’d use a form of that word to designate the man in a factory who stands at the end of the assembly line and find the rejects and throws them out
The whole text .. that whole verse from the Quran says “The Quran confirms that which is truthful in their book and .. It’s the quality control agent .. It’s the thing that shows you which parts are not true”
You don’t fool a Muslim by quoting that. If he goes and he looks it up himself and realizes you only red half the sentence
It’s a dishonest quote
Now of course .. some missionaries respond with great pain on their faces and say to the Muslim when the Muslim says “you have changed your scriptures ,, he says (oooooh how can you say that,, how could you as a Muslim change the Quran,, you couldn’t do that,, how could I change the bible”
Well, the answer is very easy .. very easy .. the bible is not the same thing as the Quran,, for at least three reasons
The Quran has always been in the hands of the people .. always .. from the time of the prophet people wrote it down if they can write and memorized it and so on and so on,, always been in the hands of the people
Nobody ever disagreed on what were the contents
The prophet died his friends met,, and they agreed by gathering all writings they had and said this is the Quran and no body disputed it,, nobody said no you left something out,, no this doesn’t belong,, nobody argued .. from the beginning
The bible doesn’t have that history,, the bible has been the property of the church not the people
The first table of contents to the bible that reads the same as the contents to the bible now dates from the year 367,, more than 300 years after Jesus,, finally they decided which books belong in the bible,, that’s point one
Point two,, the bible is in dead languages .. the Quran is in a living language
A 120,000,000 speak Arabic, the language of the Quran
The bible is written in ancient Hebrew, ancient Aramaic, and ancient Greek which nobody speaks
A handful scholar know it
So that to change it,,, is an easy thing if you are a translator,, to read one thing and tell somebody something else,, that’s easy
Third point, there has never been so much as a letter in dispute about the Quran, no one has even so much has said “this letter is wrong in your copy of the Quran” unless it’s a misprint
But nobody ever dispute,, it should be this,, it should be that, and they have a battle over it
Where the bible has come down from many many manuscripts
Any bible that’s worth buying is filled with footnotes,, almost every page will have a footnote,, so you’d read the verse “footnote” read down here it says “or this verse might be..” and he gives you an alternate translation or what other manuscript says
So when somebody says …, I mean it’s a shallow argument if somebody says “look Muslims can’t change the Quran, how could Christians change the bible”,,,, it’s because they are two different kinds of thing
To doubt the authenticity of the bible is not a Muslim idea,, it’s not Muslims who became the enemies of the bible somehow, they are not enemies of the bible
The doubtful authenticity of the bible is an old idea found within the bible
It’s a biblical idea,, see if you ask the question “Who wrote the bible, I mean who took the ink and the pen and put the words on the page,, who did that”
The answer “the scribes”,, that was their job in ancient time “the scribes” it mean they wrote the scriptures
Well, in Jeremiah chapter 8 and verse 8 it talks about the scribes
Now some Jews will tell you that Jeremiah is the only authentic book left in the whole bible
I don’t believe that myself, but that’s how sure they are about Jeremiah
The most authentic book in the bible, they say
Jeremiah chapter 8 verse 8,, it says “how can you say, we are wise and the low of the lord is with us, but behold, the false pen of the scribe has made it into a lie”
See in this place god is telling you “don’t be so sure that everything you have in your hands is scripture,, the scribes right lies with their pen,, watch out”
Where are these lies if everything in the bible is legitimate
So what I’m trying to get at is that the Muslim agrees with most churches
Most churches say “yes, the bible contains the words of god and some other words besides that” the Muslim agrees
The bible contains the words of god and some other words
It’s only a minority Christian position who will say “every word in the bible came from god, none of it came from man” that’s a minority view, but it seems be the view the missionary feels he has to sell even if he doesn’t believe himself
There is many ways of establishing that fact, but a basic point is made in Isaiah chapter 40 verse 8
This is a verse that some people like so much, the bible I have there is a new American standard, the put it on the inside front cover, they like this verse so much, Isaiah 40 and 8
It says, “The grass withers and the flower fails, but the word of our god stands forever”
It’s saying if it’s the word of god it doesn’t get lost, it stands forever, god says it, it will always be there… according to this verse
But the church that would say “the bible is totally without error”. Will always modify that
By saying, they believe the bible to be inerrant, that its without error, inerrant .. in the original manuscript, not the manuscript we have today, in the original
So that if you show someone, look .. this disagrees with that, or this is incorrect and so on, he can tell you “that’s true that’s a mistake, but that mistake was not in the original”
Ask him “how did the mistake get here” .. he will tell you “the original got lost”
Well then the original was not the word of god if it got lost, was it?
Isaiah 40 and 8 says, if god says it, it doesn’t get lost
The verse doesn’t say “the grass withers .. the flower fails, but the word of our god stands forever except for a few little details”
There is no qualification
And books have been written documenting the errors, and yet this excuse is still offered
You see if the missionary would only make this concession, if he would only say “all right, not all the bible came from god” he be more believable
I have a Muslim friend of mine in Toronto, who was besieged by a missionary group there, the fellowship of faith, who was whole goal in life is to convert Muslims
Surrounded by them constantly, get him all kinds of literature in that
The finally he told me .. he said “you know the miracle of this book (he meant the bible he said) is that people believe it came from god” .. you see that’s the miracle
Because in the one hand people are trying to tell him it’s perfect and in the other hand they will tell you “well, accept here it’s not perfect” and so on, but that’s because it got lost and so on…. It’s an excuse that’s inconsistent with the claim
If the missionary would say “not everything that we call scriptures should be called scripture”, if he would only say that, he would be more believable
Now as I said, I know some of that probably is upsetting to some people, if it’s upsetting ask yourself why, did I make a mistake, did I say something that not true, if so .. what is it?
My own personal experience , is not particularly exciting or anything, but may be they illustrate a course of events
But you might find interesting
You see when I was in high school, taught in high school by Franciscan later at university by Jesuits
I got the highest grades they ever had in religion, used to rate A+++ across the front of the page
Great grades, the teacher said “never had a student like this”, it’s terrific grades in religion
But it occurred to me one day after 2 or 3 years of this,, somehow it registered on my mind (the reason the grades are high, is because I remember everything the man said)
When it comes time for an exam, I can write everything I heard him saying, and give it back.. so I get a perfect mark
That doesn’t mean it’s true, that was my frustration
When I talk about my teacher saying “I can tell you all of this, I know the whole explanation, what is the proof”
You see we have to always decide when somebody is having a conversation with us, are they explaining it or are they proving it?
People usually fool themselves, the explain it, they think they are proving it
If you ask somebody “how do you know Jesus died for your sins what’s the proof” he starts to tell you “well god is holly man is a sinner Jesus has to die and so on” that’s not the proof, that’s an explanation, that’s haw it’s supposed to work, I know that
How do you know it happened you see, .. it’s the proof you want
In the catholic church I couldn’t find that
That proof,, because they tend to look to authorities other than the scripture (the bible)
Don’t be confused.. if there is one thing I wish I can hammer into everybody’s head it’s this idea (explanation is not the same as proof)
I asked a man the last time I was in Australia … same thing I said “how do you know man has to have his sins redeem”
And he said “well god is 100% holly,, 100% holly,, you are a sinner,, god cannot deal with you directly because he is 100% holly .. you are certain percentage sinner”
It’s an explanation ,, It’s an explanation but is it true
You see think about it, if I told you that in New York City is the holiest man that ever lived
I can talk about him for an hour may be, and build up a great reputation, I say “he is the holiest human being that ever lived”
Finally may be you’d say, “well I’m going to save my money, I want to go to New York City and meet him, I want to shake his hand”
And I tell you “No no no, he won’t even let you come in the same room with him, he is too holly, you can talk to his secretary, but he couldn’t stand to look at you, he is too holly”
Now what do you think of this man?, is he holly or is he crazy?
You see an explanation is an explanation, it may or may not be true, it’s proof for something else
What I wanted was proof “did Jesus say so”
I can end with discussion with a man who used to have a radio program on the bible
And so I asked him if could prove to me some of the things he believed
He said “I don’t have a bible” I said I “have one here”
I put a bible which is called a red letter edition, the put all of the words of Jesus in red ink
And I’d asked him “do you believe such and such” and he’d say “certainly, here is the proof” and he’d open up the bible and he greed me something from the black ink
And I kept saying “No, show me in the red ink, did Jesus that thing, I know Paul said it and this and that and the other thing you tell me you believe
Well he kept stoking my bible like it was a pet cat .. he was very fond of it
But I kept pushing that way and pushing .. I kept saying “did Jesus say it”
Suddenly he didn’t like the bible any more, and he threw it back in my face
He said “you know what your problem is, you won’t believe it unless Jesus said it”
Yes that’s my problem .. it should be his problem
How does he dares to teach something and call himself a Christian if he can’t show you that Jesus said this thing he is talking about
It should be easy to find, if Jesus said some of the things people say he said,… should be easy to find
You know if you took all the words of Jesus reported in the bible, and eliminate the duplications, because you have the same story basically told 4 times
If you eliminate the duplications, the total of all the words of Jesus do not even fill two columns of a newspaper
It’s not very many words
So if he said these different things you don’t really have a lot of work to look down and find them
So as I say among protestant churches I have been involved with the church of England the Presbyterians Pentecostals Baptist Jehovah Witnesses Christadelphians you name them, you probably you can’t name one I haven’t heard of, unless it’s something local here
To be involved with them for nine years
I read their books and visited to part of their meetings, used to teach some of their bible classes
I kept coming back to this “what proof do you offer, what proof”
So they bring out a hand full of their favorite verses (John 3:16, 8:58, 10:30, 14:9, 20:28) and so on
But for every one of those verses there is another verse which should be putted right beside that verse
You find out what they were trying to say won’t work
(Hebrew 11:17, Exodus chapter 3, John chapter 17, John chapter 5 and Exodus chapter 6) to go in the order of the verses I named you there
You put those beside those verses and the argument dissolves among others
It don’t prove the divinity of Jesus, .. doesn’t mean he is not diving, but these things don’t do the job
That’s the problem, I’m not saying he is not diving, I’m saying “I still want to see the proof,.. did he say so”
Then the real test of sincerity was what disappointed me
You see you can take one of these verses somebody shows you, (John 14:9) for example Jesus said to Philip “if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the father”
So I asked them “how is it he said in this other place to a group of people (you people have never seen the father), don’t tell me in this place he means he is god, when in this place he told some people who were looking at him (you have never seen god) he must mean something else”
You tell somebody that and he will say “okay, you have a point, what about this verse” and he go to another verse,.. Its fine
But next week somebody would come to that same man and say “where is the proof that Jesus said he was god”, he will read John 14:9 right back where he started from, a verse which a week ago he told me wasn’t good enough
It will be good for somebody else because he hopes he does not know the response I had
Beginning about 1969 … the same story I seem to get when I go from church to church and ask them “you know if you took all the words of Jesus and you cut them out of the bible with a seizers and then I gave you some paste and told you (put them back together any way you like … take all these words, put them back together,,, paste them together how you like) you still can’t make him spell out the trinity”
He still doesn’t say anything about it .. no matter how you change his words
So they tell me “it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. The trinity is an evolved understanding, the church didn’t understand this deep thought at first, they understanding evolved, with the centuries it was discussed, people came to understand it and believe it”
Fine,, but if that what you say, you shouldn’t say in the other hand “Jesus used to preach it”
If you tell me people didn’t figure it out for 200 years don’t tell me “Jesus preached it”
And So they would say “no no, he preached it, but it is not in the bible, he used to preach it to his decibels, he told them about it”
Well in the eighteenth chapter of John Jesus says very clearly “I taught nothing in secrete” said, everything I had to say I said in the market place
He didn’t tell his decibels any secrets
More solutions are offered to me
 

medoaaa21

Junior Member
Gary Miller

People told me your problem you are not spiritual enough, believe then it’s easy, believe
But you see, a person can’t make themselves believe if they know better
What sometimes happens to human beings, they get a pain so their head is hurting
They go to a doctor they tell him I got this pain it won’t go away
The doctor make some tests, a full examination, maybe some x-ray and he finds that there is nothing wrong
So he realizes the man’s problem is mental, It’s an imaginary pain
He doesn’t tell the man that, he gives him a placebo, they are things that look like bills but they are only milk sugar
Just sugar
He goes to his patient and he says, “We have made some tests, this is the medicine you need, take these bills and in one day your pain should stop”
It almost always does
Because the man thinks he getting some medicine, and so his mental abilities get rid of the pain, that’s a placebo
It works that way
I can’t do the same thing with belief though, I can’t manufacture it
You see if the doctor came to me and he said “you know your problem is mental, I have some sugar bills here
Believe that these are medicine with all your hart, Believe they are medicine, try very hard, and when you believe that they are medicine the pain will go away, .. I can’t do it
You told me they are sugar, I know better
So in the same way, it’s not satisfactory when somebody comes and he says “believe believe believe”, how can you believe if you know better
Faith overcomes people told me, Faith overcomes
You must be born again,… in that I took a real interest in, “you must be born again”
I want to know how does this work,… where is the proof in the scripture
They brought me Romans Chapter 8
And it’s very interesting, Romans chapter 8 Paul says “if you are *!*!*!*! again what happens is, the spirit of god comes into you and it tells you that god is now your father, and so you cry out “appah” father”
So this is how it’s supposed to work, it’s fascinating, I gave that a lot of thought
When I got to thinking about this word “appah” it’s unusual, means father in Aramaic
So I looked up the word “appah”, where else is it in the bible
Well, there is only one other place that Paul talks about “appah”, I will let you find it for your self
One other place he talks about appah
And in this place he also talks about how it is that this thing works
He says “the spirit of god comes within you, you become a child of god, you call out to god .. appah .. father, now god is your father
And he goes on to say “now you have a new mother … also”, a new mother, god is your father and you have a mother
Since 1969 till now, 15 years I have yet to meet someone who is born again and ask him “who is your father?” they say “God”, I say “who is your mother?” they don’t know
Why not, it’s in the bible
It says you have a new mother if you are born again
Why did the spirit of god when it came within you forget to tell you who was your mother?
It’s there, I will let you find it, it’s there
It’s important
You see in Islam if you call a man a liar, you better have proof or you are the one that’s in trouble
If somebody over there calls me a liar, he better have proof you see. Unless you are not a Muslim. If other relisions permits you to call that name without proof, that’s their business
Now .. as I say for many years I went directly priests and ministers from about 1969 till 77 they are about, and round and round we go, I don’t want to bore you with a lot of the conversations but ..,.
They around in tiny little circles and it’s disappointing
People ask me to say “who is the father of Jesus?” I say “he didn’t have a father” and they say “well then you see, Marry is the mother .. God is the father”
So I would ask “you mean Marry is the wife of God?” “NOOO” they are horrified “NOO No No no, God is the father Marry is the mother”
And I would ask them “his parents weren’t married though” “Noooo, god doesn’t take a wife”
So we go on to something else
And they say “but Jesus called God father” and I always ask people who tell me that, I say “what do you call God”, probably it’s father
People who say that they pray “our father”
“But he called himself son of God” they say, .. and I tell him “yes and he called lots of other people son of God, he said (pleased are the peace makers they shall be called sons of God)”
I became very frustrated on the crucifixion,. I believe that the crucifixion happened, I don’t know why?
I asked so many people, I say “why did God have to become a man and die?, if a price has to be paid for our sins, why can’t we just go and find a sinless and execute him and say there the price is paid?”
To which people always said “no, if a man dies it’s no enough,.. it has to be someone who was God and man”
And so I would always asked them “you mean God died?”
They say “No no no no, only the man died”, back where we started from, a man dies it isn’t good enough
See that’s not a Nobel idea in my part, the church is still discussing that till this day, they still not sure who died on the cross
Was it go .. was it man .. or was it the god man or what was the deal
Because it cann … God doesn’t die because that means changing from one state to another and god doesn’t change from one state to another he is supposed to be immutable and so on
They still discussing that
Jesus pay the price for your sins … pay the price .. I could never understand that
In the lord’s prayer Jesus taught his decibels ho to pray, he said “pray like this”, and one of these lines he told them he said “pray to God say (forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sinned against us)”
More modern translations say “forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors”
How do you for give someone who owes you a debt
Do you say “you know that money you owe me, forget it, no give me the money”
If you forgive it, there is no price, nothing is paid, you see it’s forgiven
So the lord’s prayer says “forgive us our sins the same way we forgive someone who sinned against us”
If someone slaps you and you forgive him, that’s the end of that
But you don’t say “I forgive you for slapping me, now come here I want to slap you” you see
You don’t do that
About what would be 500 years ago, there was a Jew in Europe, “Spinoza” was his name “Baruch Spinoza”
A philosopher and he wrote a great deal, and he made the same point that people were making 500 years before him
He was frustrated when a Christian would come to him and say “God became man”, he would say “what do you mean?... god became man, .. see I know what is God and I know what is man, and I can imagine that what was God turn into a man, he is not God anymore .. used to be God, now he is a man, I can understand that at least it make some sense”
But that’s not what the church teaches, they say “God became man but he was still God”
And that causes a problem, you see if I have a ball of clay and I squeeze it and I put corners on it and I make it into a cube, I can tell you “you see the ball became a cube”, but I can’t tell you “don’t be fooled it’s still round”
See if it was one thing and it became another thing, .. it’s not that thing any more
They solve that by putting a label on it, they call it “dyophysitism”, it doesn’t prove any thing
Means two natures, dyophysitism
That’s an old trick, when you don’t know the answer put a label on it
In ancient Greece the Greeks, 25 centuries ago came to their scientists with a question
The had observed that “you eat food, it goes through the system and some of it comes out”
They wanted to know “which part of what I take in is the part that feeds me, because evidentially I don’t need all of it”, you see
The want to know “which is the nutritive faculty of the food”
And the scientists didn’t know, so they said “the part that feeds you is the nutritive faculty of the food”
It’s like saying “the part that feeds you is the part that feeds you” that’s all, it’s a label, it doesn’t answer anything
As I say I can talk to you for hours about experiences
About 1977 I decided to have a look at the Quran, I never met a Muslim, I lived a 100 kilometers from the nearest Muslim
See what interested me was what non-Muslims said about Mohamed
There are books and books written about Mohamed that tell you “one thing we know for sure about this man (he had an outside source of information)”
One book I have got says the Quran was written by a committee
Because it has established so well, there is information in there that an Arabian shouldn’t have known, he must have had someone from the outside bringing him this information
So you see (one thing we know for sure, he had an outside source of information)
Now he said this book was a revelation, so they say “you see he was a liar .. he got it from somewhere he put it in a book and he gave it to someone telling him it was from God, he was a liar”
Other people .. write books and books on the subject of Mohamed and they say “one thing we know for sure, he thought he was a prophet, .. he was crazy”
Because they look at his life very carefully and they sea episodes like for example when he hid in the cave with Abo-Baker, he was running from the whole city who wanted to kill him, and he hid in the cave, and when the Makkans came running up to the cave to kill them ..
What did he say to his friend?, did he tell him “see if you can find a back way out of the cave?
What he told his friend was “relax” he was telling him “you know I see what you see” but he said “God is with us, God will save us”
So people on that basis they say “you see he thought he was a prophet, he thought God was with me, because he said things like that, he wasn’t a liar”
They never seem to realize that one man can’t be both … you can’t be a liar and a crazy man at the same time
If you think that an angel gives the words of God in your ear, and somebody says “I have a question for you, what does God tell you about this thing, I want to hear an answer tomorrow”
If you are a crazy man, if you think an angel whispers in your ear … then you don’t set up this night thinking (what will I tell him tomorrow, what can I find, who knows the answer)
You are crazy, you think the angel will tell you the answer, you don’t go and look it up somewhere
You see you can’t be a liar and a crazy man at the same time
You can be one or the other or neither … but you can’t be both
You see I read two non-Muslim biographies of Mohamed
One was by Rodin who was an atheist, who hated the man
But many interesting things come out about his life that I had to wonder about
One story that’s told is that …. When he was an older man, he had a son named إبراهيم or Ibrahim
The son died when the child was two years old, the same day the boy died there was an eclipse of the sun … the sky went dark
And the Muslims came running to their prophet and said “look, it’s a miracle, your child died and the sky went dark in sadness”
It occurred to me … you see if he was a crazy man he probably believe what they said, he would probably think “Yes it’s a miracle, my child died the sky went dark, yes it’s a miracle”, if he was a crazy man
If he was a liar .. he would have taken advantage of it, he would have said “yes right, my child died .. the sky is dark, you tell everyone it proves I am a prophet”
But what did he do? .. he became angry with the Muslims
He told them that was nonsense, he was angry with them .. “how dare you say that”
He said the sun and the moon are signs of God and they don’t worry themselves about the birth of a man or the death of the son of Mohamed”
It doesn’t look very crazy, it doesn’t look much like a liar
No you have a third alternative of course which people tell you all the time
They say “no, he was not a liar, he was not a crazy man, he was deceived by the devil”, deceived by the devil
It’s an interesting idea … but whatever you say, you better be ready to back it up
It is a lot of difficulties with that idea
For example there is a verse in the Quran which tells the reader about a good habit to develop
It tells him “before you read this book always say (أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم)” which means I take refuge in god from Satan the rejected
Is this Satan who said this, … who said (before you read my book ask God to save you from me) Is that Satan who wrote that?
As Jesus said “if Satan is divided against himself then his kingdom will fall”, he is fighting against his own interest
So let me finish with a point that … a story that illustrate a point
As I said, there is many theories and explanations around ... Many explanations
But an explanation … something somebody tells you … is just so much air coming out of his mouth unless he has proof
And unless he offers you something that you can use to falsify it
You see there is many theories of how do the planets go around the sun and how do the stars burn and all the rest of it, … many theories
Most of them are so much wind … scientists pay no attention to them, because they don’t contain something that could be checked to prove it’s false
You see Intestine was considered an intelligent man because when he offered his theory in 1905 and again in 1915, he didn’t just offer a theory; he said “here is three ways to prove I’m wrong”
Now it’s worth listening to him, he has told me “here is three different things you can do, if you can do this, I am wrong, here you are”
Is there anything like that in Christianity, has the Christian ever said, “You want to prove I am wrong all you have to do is this” has he ever done that
The Quran is filled with that kind of things, filled with it
It say you want to prove that book is wrong; do this, prove it, go ahead, do it, filled with that kind of thing
This is an example of it that made a big impression in its day, during the lifetime 14 centuries before of the prophet of Islam
You see, he had an uncle named Abo-Lahab, this was his nickname “Abo-Lahab”
This man hated Mohamed, he hated anything the man said
He used to watch him going through the city, and if he saw him talking to someone, he waited till they split up, he go after the man he spoke to, and take him to say “what did Mohamed tell you,… whatever it is, it’s a lie, did he tell you day, it’s night, did he say black, it’s white” exact opposite, whatever he heard the Muslim say he say the opposite
That was the way his mind worked
There is a little chapter of the Quran called “Abo-Lahab”, and it says about this man that he will never change
It condemned him to hell “Jahinnam”
You see if the man had ever become a Muslim, the Muslims would believe (well now he is not condemned any more)
You see for 10 years before Abo-Lahab died that was a part of the Quran
And the Muslims could come to Abo-Lahab and say “do you know it has been revealed to us in your … in our book that you will never be a Muslim. God says you will never be a Muslim”
For 10 years they told him that
All he had to do is say “well your book is wrong, I want to be a Muslim, what do you think of your book now”
That’s all he had to do
He had 10 years to think about it, and that’s the way he was
See if somebody is your enemy, you don’t come to him and say “you want to prove I am wrong here say this, come on say it, if … all you have to do is say the words and I am wrong, you finish me”, He never did it
See this is one of many cases of something that was offered that could have been falsifiable
And so it was
As I say in 1978, after … how long would that be 15 years of arguing with the church authorities, one place or another I got the idea (I am going to argue with some other people, I am going to read the Quran, see how much of it is any good, pick out the true, pick out the false)
Thought it will take a few years, it will take some serious study and so on
I read through it, about three days later I finished it, and said “this is what I’ve been saying for 15 years”
So I went to find some Muslims
I don’t want someone to feel you have been tricked into something
I haven’t said anything about Christianity that isn’t true, I haven’t say anything about Islam that isn’t true unless it was a slip of a tong or something
I am simply trying to remind an individual (don’t close your mind before it’s too late, don’t make up your mind before you have all the facts)
Most people who used to be Christians and become Muslims will tell you “I am a better Christian than I used to be, now I follow Christ, I didn’t before”
That’s what I will tell you
The bible says Jesus taught his disciples “when you greet one another, let your greeting be (peace be with you)” he said the example (peace be with you), who says that today
Christians ?,… once in a great while may be
Muslims ?, … whether they speak Arabic or not they say (السلام عليكم), peace be with you
Jesus when he prayed in the garden of Gethsemani put his forehead on the ground, who prays like that? Christians or Muslims?
Jesus used to fast for more than a month at a time, who fasts today? Christians or Muslims?
Who really is trying to imitate Jesus?
Somebody said to me before coming in here, he said aaaah … “the Muslims make Jesus out … they insult him and so on and so on”
How possibly did they insult him? … they left him up … up
They can’t tolerate anything bad said about him
They would just as quickly tell you that you know the … the … they say “محمد رسول الله”, means Mohamed is the messenger of God, they will just as quickly say “(عيسى) Jesus (عيسى رسول الله)” no problem
Just as quickly tell you that, because it’s true
There … occupy the same place, … if God himself want to make distinctions among his prophets that’s his business not ours’
You treat them all with the same amount of respect
May God guide us always closer to the truth
 

medoaaa21

Junior Member
Now Q&A this is much more detailed in the attached file


Q1: Ladies and gentlemen … we are gathered here today in the name of god, and this gather ship truly make us understand what god is
For most of all .. what I like to ask this people here (what teaching us … a very simple question … that we may understand what god wants us to do)
Ok do you … ? … can I speak to you?
G: you asked me (how do we know what god wants us to do?) … is that what the question was?
Q1: that’s it … by theology … the word theology means (god’s relation with man and the universe)
Why did god made man and the universe? What is the answer to this question?
G: that’s … ok you are finished now … theology is an invented word which just means (the study of god) and it’s not a science like biology is, so that you want to know something about biology you go and get a book about biology and you grant that what you read is true
Theology … anybody who wants to write about god can write about god so you can’t go and pick up a book about theology and say everything in it must be true, it’s like biology, it’s not a science like that
It’s filled with everybody’s opinion, so people’s opinions have to be sorted out according to (how much their worth)
Now the human mind will reach to a certain point, get some points correct and some points false. But a careful man is supposed to be able to choose (this is the true – this is the false) (this make sense – this is nonsense)
Ok? … so for a start you get your own … what you can figure out for yourself and what you can judge from what other people have told you … you take input and so on … to come to the final detail of it you need a revelation from god because …
The human mind is different from anything else you find in creation
You find little insects they need something to eat, sure enough there is something provided for them
Bigger animals they need food, there is something else they eat … the plants have something to eat
Everything is provided all the way up to scale
You get to the human,… things are provided for him, there is a place to eat, a place to sleep and so on
But he has got something nothing else has, a mind that ask questions
So it’s only reasonable to believe that if something is provided for all of this other needs, he has a need to know, something must be provided
He should look around somewhere he should find the provision … that answers his questions
That is the nature of revelation
Now of course there is lots of books that say "this is a revelation" … they make that claim
But again … you have to judge the authority … this book says it's from God … read on … does it sound like God or not … OK
Q1:You are not atheist
G:What's that now?
Q1:You are not atheist
G:We are not atheist … aaaaah
Q1:God has given us the guidance
G:Yes I agree, God has given us the guidance
Q1:where is the guidance please
G:I just told you … you are going to find it in some book somewhere that says this is a revelation from God
Q1:OK
G:you … you figure it out as you go along which one's are worth the title, which one deserve to be called a revelation and which one's don’t … that's up to you to figure out in your head
Q1:OK … let me ask one more question, the book … if it is the bible
CH: thank you Mr. Miller … are there any other questions ladies and gentlemen?, unfortunately we don't have time accommodate more than one question from one person, are there any other questions please
Well you please take your seat sir?
Q2: My question is very brief; I would like to ask Mr. Deedat. From the Quran … from the Bible I can give him at least 25 predictions made by different prophets over a long period … over 1600 years apart
And they were all fulfilled in connection to the death reel and resurrection of Jesus Christ in three days … all these predictions
Is there any prediction made in the Quran which does not relate to the prophets of the Old Testament
Chairman: Thank you sir … Mr. Deedat
G: Just to clarify the question … is there any prophecy of the Quran you say which does not relate to what ..? I lost you their … I am sorry
Q2: Which is not taken from the Old Testament
G: oh … is there any prophecy in the Quran that doesn't come from the Old Testament
Q2: that's not taken from their … the Old Testament
G: Ok … yes … sure … if … it depends on what you mean by prophecy, if you are talking about prediction of something to happen … yes
You have for example one of those falsifiable statements as I said … I believe he was quoting it when he talked
The Quran said to the Muslims "you will always find those closest in love to you will be the Christians rather than the Jews"
You see today that still stands and still for 14 centuries to the Jews telling them "you Jews want to prove Muslims are wrong ... here … the Quran tells you what to do … it says treat us better than the Christians do and we will believe you"
You see … it told the Jew "all you have to do is start treating Muslims very nice, let a few years go by then say to the Muslims (doesn't your book say the Christians are better friends than we are, … look look we are better friends") but they have never thought of it … that's a prophecy you see
Q2: my question was for Mr. Deedat to answer
D: your question has been framed in such around about way. You said that is a very simple question. But if you will put simply to me, it will make it easy for me to answer, will you please repeat your question
Q2: my question is, do you have any predictions in the Quran any prophecy in the Quran, that was not taken …
D: Right, in the Quran, there are, there are prophecies in the Quran at the time of the prophet "ص", when they were under trials and tribulations, when there seem to be no hope
God almighty gives the holly prophet Mohamed a hope, that he is going to concur, and they will be able to return to Makah and perform their Haj
Then there is a chapter in the Quran called Surah Rum … Rum
And in that Surah, the incident that is referred to is that the Persians and the Romans they were at war, and the Persians concurred the Romans
And in the Quran they were told that within a small period of time the romans will once more again concur the Persians
These are prophecies being fulfilled in the life time of the prophet
And … and a standing prophecy about the supremacy of Islam over all the religions
You see, in the holly Quran we are told. He says "ليظهره على الدين كله"
That the God almighty has given Mohamed in Islam a religion, a way of life that is going to concur … supersede every way of life
Whether it be Judaism Hinduism modalism Christianism
And from the figure that I gave you at the beginning of my talk, where I said that there are a 1000,000,000 Muslims in the world today … as against 1200,000,000 Christians. Numerical … people who fill census forms 1200,000,000
But if you take into account that Islam started 600 years after Christianity
You can see the obvious, … that Islam is superseding every other way of life
And the "plain truth" magazine of some few month back, there were figures given of the progress or the growth of each and every religion on earth, each and every philosophy and in that you will find the highest percentage of progress was given to Islam, something like 267 percent as against the Roman Catholics as against the Hindus as against the Jews. Every system
So here is a prophecy that is being fulfilled all the time. I hope that answers your question
Q3: I simply want to say that I agree with everything both speakers have said except for your second speech among one issue
Does you first of all agree with me that god created the universe as well as us
G: Do I believe that god created the universe as well as us
Q3: yes do you?
Chairman: Mr. Miller
G: ok, if I understand your question, you say "Do I believe that god created the universe as well as us?"
Q3: yes that's right, all living creatures on this planet as well
G: Yes of course, it depends on how do you mean by create, they told me the story the other day, they said "when he made man he rolled up his sleeves and he made man", no I don’t believe that. Create, however happened he created yes
Q3:no no no … however it happens … yes. I am willing to go along with that
G: Ok
Q3:however he created it. The fact is you agree god created every thing
G: yes
Q3: now you said it was not possible … look aaaah … I am not talking for Christianity or anybody else
You said that Christ could not have been of virgin birth
G: no I didn't say that no no no, I didn't say that, no no, misunderstood, I didn't say that …
Q3: OK
G: be sure you misunderstood me, I didn't say that, no no, no no no, what I said was "people when they use this argument, when they say (who was his father) and they say (god was his father), I ask them (do you mean god took Marry his wife)"
I am not denying that … I am saying he had no father, that's physically possible to some biologist, they will tell you (you can do it today, you can make a child without a father), you take like they do with rabbit eggs they … what they call it? … deploy it, you put the … if they touch each other's they will reproduce
But that’s … possible, no problem
Q3: accidentally, impregnation, I agree with that
But tell me, if god himself chose to sin, or chose to come to this planet, to the people whom he created, in the form of a human being, why do you think that he should have limitation in that he should not be able to do that
G: No I didn't say I think he should not be able to do that, what I am pointing out to you was …
You have to clarify what you mean. If you say "god became a human being", I still want to know what you mean
Do you mean he used to be god but now he is a man, he is not god any more, or do you mean something else and so on
That a person … is not … it's too easy to say (god took on a form of a human being)
Finfish it for me … did he surrender some of his physical powers, and he will usually tell you (yes)
And then I say did he surrendered his mental powers, and he will have to think about that, to say (well, no, yes, maybe he did, I don’t know) and so on. You have to clarify what you mean if you said (god became a man)
You have to really explain what you mean before I could possibly agree with you
Q3: What you are looking for now is scientific proof
G: No no. I am looking for an understanding of what someone means. It's like me asking you (is it colder in the winter than it is in Alaska?), and you are going to say (what are you talking about, the winter and Alaska, and so on), you got to clarify it
If you say (could god become a man), I am saying (you explain to me what you mean and I will tell you whether I agree or not)
You need a clear explanation of (do you mean "he gave up everything godly", and so there is no god anymore, he has become a man, but somehow he will become god again. Or do you mean "he is a man and he is god", in which case I want to know … then is he mortal or immortal … you know, does he know everything or not, and so on, you see
Q3: All right, to answer your question I will just assume that god became a man and remain god. Why was that not possible, if he created the universe why couldn’t he do that
G: Because as I said … because it is a logical mistake that people make when they say (god can do anything), it's not true
God cannot do anything unless you believe he does stupid thing
Does he do foolish things, does he do week things, does he do silly things
He is limited because he is god to doing godly things, to start with
Now if you tell me (he is a man and he is god), I simply have a natural question, I am saying (could they kill him or not, is he mortal or immortal), god is mortal, man is immortal. Which was he if he is both and so on?
To say, if he is a man, a man by definition has limitation, that’s what makes him a man, he doesn’t know everything, that’s why he is a man
If god is a man, what is this being then, does he know everything or only something. If knows only something he is a man; if he knows everything he is god, you see …
That’s the problem, it's that you cannot combine the two, or so far no one has ever done it for my satisfaction, combine the two
Q3: you are … you are simply using human logic … on on… on a quantity that was capable of creating the entire universe, you are now applying human logic
G:eek:f course, is there a better kind of logic, where do I find it .
Ok … no … is there is another kind of logic, where do I find it. Because if there is a better logic you tell me where can I go find the text book, I want to know about it
Q3: well if you say in the one breath that he created the universe as well as everything that lives on this planet, you have to accept that anything is possible
G: I just told you why god can not do everything, because my god can not do stupid things, so he has some limitations, he only does godly things, OK
Q3: I am sorry sir, but your definition of stupid things in god's definition, I won't argue
Chairman: Thank you sir, the next question please
Q4: I greet you all in the name of the lord Jesus Christ …
I will ask Mr. Miller a question …. Am
First of all, how much you are paid to come down here
Chairman: I think Mr. Miller
G: no no, you must have come in late, I explained that
Q4: no no … you did explain that but … I feel that something fishy about it, because you let yourself down
G: Ok as I told you in Islam …
Q4: you said that nobody paid your fair
G: that's right, that's right
Q4: it seems like you are telling a lie
G: ok but you see .. if your religion … if your religion … if your religion permits you to call a man a liar without proof … that's to your shame, my religion doesn't permit me to call a man a liar unless I bring the proof
Q4: right …
Chairman: thank you, thank you, anyone who has a question to ask on the merits of the discussion please pose your question … you are excused sir, the next person will now ask his question
Q4: I will ask my question now
Chairman: I am sorry sir, you forfeited your right to ask a question, will the next person please pose his question?
Well you please remain silent ladies and gentlemen, this is important
… you will have an opportunity if there is time remaining, well you please now allow the next person to ask the question?
--- is it a question on the merits of the discussion or is it some defamatory statement which you intent to make?
Q4: on the merits … yeah , right, fine
Chairman: yes … please restrict yourself to the merits of the discussion
Yes go ahead and ask your question
Q4: Mr. Miller, If I am to take an orange, and in front of you peel this orange and slowly cut it into many pieces, and then I take this orange and I slowly eat this orange piece by piece, and eventually when the orange has been eaten, and ask you a question … Mr. Miller (how does that orange taste?) what would you tell me?
G: he ate it but I didn't eat it?
Q4: don’t dock the mic please
Chairman: is that the entire question?
Q4: that’s right
G: just trying to figure your question, you tell me (you eat an orange?)
Q4: yes
G: and then you asked me how did it taste?
Q4: yes .. yes .. that’s right
G: I can tell you how most oranges taste, but I have no idea how the one tasted that you ate
Q4: that’s right, that’s right Mr. Miller, you haven’t tasted Jesus Christ, you haven’t experienced the power of the holy spirit, you haven’t experienced the power of the holy spirit and the new birth in Jesus Christ
G: yeah yeah, but ….
Q4: Don’t cut me off
G: Fine, are you finished with your question or you want to give another lecture, because if you want to give a lecture we will come and hear you some time, but … you know this was supposed to be a question period
Q4: Put the mic on there
G: you asked a question, I gave you an answer
Q4: you didn’t experience the power of Jesus Christ, how would you know
G:yeah fine, you asked a question, I gave you my answer, if you say you have experienced the power of Jesus Christ … god bless you, that is your business
Q4: You haven’t ate the orange
G: that's right that is your business
Q4: You haven’t ate the orange, You haven’t ate the orange
G: I understand, I am not a child, I understand your point, I just said (if you have sampled this wonderful power and so on, that is your business, it's not something you can give me, God has to give it to me)
Ok … so don’t tell me you are going to save me somehow, because if god gave you this thing that’s between you and god, be my gest
Q4: you didn’t experience the power of God
Chairman: Next question
Q5: greeting bros and sisters in the lovely name of Jesus Christ this evening
When I’ve seen the advert in the newspaper concerning our friend Mr. Deedat and Mr. Miller, I read about divinity being confirmed today in this auditorium as it were
Sorry for being late, I’ve been busy at church services
But … this is one thing that I would want to stress to Mr. Miller
That he has come to point out to people out here the meaning of divinity
And what he has actually finished off ward on the stage doesn’t confirm any thing as far as divinity is concerned to me
And I would want to leave with him is this, only just one thing
If he cannot believe that god can be doing everything at the same time
If I can operate three different jobs at the very same time
I can kick, I can punch, I can smile, I am human
My god can do much more than that, because he is diving
Thank you my friend, god bless you
Chairman: thank you, do you have a question sir
Q6: I just want to ask one question to Mr. Deedat
When you die where are you going?
Chairman: Mr. Deedat
Deedat: Is that your question?
Q6: yes
Deedat: mic … mic …. Mic
By th grace of god, I believe I will go in heaven “إن شاء الله”
Q6: but now … is aaaa
Chairman: the next questioner please, well you please take your seat sir. The next person to the mic
Q7: Mr. Miller, for the benefit of most of the Christian people here, I’d like to ask you a simple question
Are you a Christian or a Muslim?
Chairman: Mr. Miller
Miller: I thought I made that clear by what I was summing up by
You see names like Jew, the meaning is “one who praises God” “Jew”
I am a Jew I praise God, but I am not capital J E W, means I am an Israeli citizen or something, Jew in the meaning
Christian is not a Christ given name
Jesus never said call your selves Christian, that was a nick name
That was given years after his time, but ….
If by Christian you mean “one who follows Christ”
I am a Christian
In the same way Muslim is not a label that means you are an Arab or something
Muslim means “one who submit his well to God”
I am a Muslim, I submit my well to god
If you want to say your salvation belongs according to some label … I am sure you don’t, you are more sensible than that, I am sure
But if you say your label belongs to something
You fall into this trap as the Quran says “Do they say they have a contract with god?”
So that there salvation happened at this time never mind they live for forty more years
There salvation happened at this time
Because I believe you struggle tell the day you die
Any day, any given day someone can say “what’s your standing if you were to die right now?, Are you ready to meet God?”
Yeah I know whether I am or not
But I can’t say “and a week from Tuesday I am still saved”
I don’t know till a week from Tuesday, because I am struggling and fighting with it until that day
That is a large difference between kinds of people who grab labels or say I have my salvation already
And other people who are not so quick with the labels and say “my salvation, I am working on it, I am going to work on it till the day I die”
Q7: In other words, you are a Muslim
Miller: I am happy to be a Muslim, yes, happy to be a Muslim, thank god
Q7: Thank you Mr. Miller that answer it
Chairman: yes sir, your question
Q8: my question is this, when I am asking a question please don’t put the mic off, because this is what you did in the city hall
If you want to answer a question you answer it full
Chairman: Sir
Q8: first I want to tell you praise the lord before I start my question
Halleluiah glory to his name
What I want to ask you is this
It has been mentioned from the platform that we all are *!*!*!*! Muslims, I want you to prove that I am a *!*!*!*! Muslim
Miller: no problem, no problem, if you can understand what I mean by Muslim
The demonstration is there, you can study it and there is more books on the subject than you could read
No … you want the answer or not, my wife can prove it to you
Q8: I am not a *!*!*!*! Muslim
Miller: do you want proof or not, you ask me for proof
Q8: I am not a *!*!*!*! Muslim, you put the mic off
Miller: do you want proof or not, you ask me for proof, now as soon as I open my mouth you tell me I am not
If you want proof I will give it to you if you be quit
Q8: all right
Miller: the proof is what you will find if you investigate “what do people believe if no one comes and tells them what to believe”
If you want to read the documentation of cases of people like the Capalco tripe of Papua who never met civilized man till 1920’s
If you want to read the documentation of what did the aborigines of Australia believe before the white man came there and so on
If you want to read the documented belief “what did they believe before someone came and told them what to believe”
You will find it is Islam in everything but name, because they don’t speak Arabic they don’t say Islam
The religion is the same “God is one, he has no sons, he is not subject to ageing, and son and so on and so on”
The proof is there
Q8: all right, I will answer you for that, can I answer him?
Chairman: No, I am afraid you cant sir
Q8: you put the mic off
Chairman: sir there is a limited … there is a limited time … there is a limited time
Q8: No I can answer him
Chairman: are there any other questions
Q8: here you are you suit the mic off
Chairman: are there any other questions
It the prerogative of anyone who wants to express their opinion to invite either of the speakers to a debate and then to exercise their rights to express their opinions
You are now availed of the opportunity of asking questions on the biases of the discussion presented
If people do not persist on jury, laughing, joking, wasting time basically at the mic
I think fruitful and important questions which people can learn
Ladies and gentlemen this is an assembly of god
We are discussing diving issues important issues intrinsic to our lives
Those who persist on jurying and laughing or to say the least absolutely unstapled
Would you please ask you question sir
Q9: I have a few questions … just about three questions but don’t suit mic off
Chairman: unfortunately sir we have only five minutes
Q9: three questions in one minute
Chairman: in less than a minute
A person came up here and said to Ahmed Deedat “ are you sure you are going to heaven?”
Ahmed Deedat said “the grace … by the grace of God”
But the bible tells me “by the grace of god I can live a holly life …. By the blood of Jesus can take me to heaven”, thank you
Chairman: do you want Mr. Deedat to comment on that
Q9: yes, Ahmed Deedat said “by the grace of god he should go to heaven”
And I want to know the grace of god can take him to heaven
Chairman: yes sir, Mr. Deedat …. The question is how can the grace of god transport a person to heaven
Q9: you know this cocksureness that you are displaying and the display of your fellow cultist there
You know it amazes me that the Christian they were dragging their feet to get to the mic in first instance
It’s one by one you are getting the courage to come along an waste our time
You are making statements and you want an answer
Look … I am humble, I am not as arrogant as cocksure as Jews were in the time of Jesus
You, you have the privilege of being as arrogant as you like
I am humble, I believe in the grace of god and on that strength I have hoped that by god welling I shall enter the good pleasures of god
Did I condemn you?
Q9: that is what you said
Deedat: no that is you condemning yourself, the way … the arrogance in which you are standing now and your fellow Christians there in the corner ready to runaway
Look look at them
Is this the way … Is this the way your cultured people and Christians behave, look at this
Look at the behavior, it’s an absolute disgrace on born-again Christians
Yes my friend if you have a question please ask your question, because yours will be the last question
Chairman: thank you Mr. Deedat, we have just three minutes ladies and gentlemen. Sufficient time for just one more question
Q10: thank you Chairman
I am a pit intrigued about things I heard this evening or this afternoon about rather
But I must certainly convers orate shooting at what I heard is in fact the truth whether is from the Christian side or the Islamic side
But what I would like to get clarification on is “is it possible for God to turn into a man, physical blood, bones and blood vessels, a perfect human being
Died two thousand years ago … for my sins two thousand years later
I’ve seen that how is that illogical
If I could get a reasonable explanation “how is this possible?”
Chairman: do you direct the question to Mr. Miller so or Mr. Deedat?
Q10: listened to both speakers have been telling the truth, so either one can take it
Chairman: Mr. Miller well you please answer, and this will be the last answer ladies and gentlemen we don’t have time for any further questions
Miller: you are asking me “is it possible God can become a man and die for my sins and I can still benefit 2000 years later?”
You are asking the wrong person. I mean, ask a Christian, that’s what he believes, I have reason not to
You see so I can’t really defend that idea because I don’t believe it … ok
I don’t believe that someone died for my sins, it becomes a hypothetical question
It’s like people saying “How many angels can dance on the head of the pen?”
I don’t know, I am not going to worry myself over it … you see
Since I don’t believe someone died for my sins, I am not going to try to defend the believe of those who do
They may have their defense, and believe me I’ve heard them all
And they haven’t convenes me yet, so how can I offer you something, you see
Chairman: thank you, we have fortunately just one minute, I think we will entertain just one more question
Q11: can we have sound?
Ok, Mr. Miller many Christians have attended this meeting under the impression that this was going to be a normal type of symposium organized by the IPC
Where you have a Christian who puts forth his point of view and then Mr. Deedat puts forth the Islamic point of view
No I am sure after your speech more Christians are as confused as ever
For the sake of clarity could you tell us clearly without perambulating as to whether you are a Christian or a Muslim
By Christian I mean one who recognizes the lordship of Jesus over his life
Or Muslim who does not recognize Jesus as lord but as one of the prophets
And as a practicing Muslim who follows all the …
Miller: see … you trying to … you may as well ask me “well I stop beating my wife … yes or no?”
How do you know I am married … you see
Q11: what I want to know is “are you a Christian or a Muslim?”
Miller: you said “are you a Christian meaning you acknowledge Jesus as lord, or are you a Muslim and you don’t acknowledge Jesus as lord?”
Jesus is lord and I am a Muslim saying that
He is lord and so as according to the Bible Abraham, it says Sarah because she was a good wife called her husband lord
Whatever you mean by lord, may be something else, but I don’t hesitate to call him lord if you mean master, teacher and so on, yes he was, by all means
Q11: I explain what I mean by lord …
Miller: by lord I guess you mean god in the flesh and so on and still I’ve tried to tell you “you have to tell me what you mean by that”
Q11: yes
If you mean (was Jesus god?) as many Christians are now saying, they say “Jesus Is god”, when you ask them (what do you mean?), they say “he was god’s chief’s spokesman, if you spit in Jesus face, it’s the same as spitting in god’s face”
I agree with that … no problem
If that’s the sense you mean (he is god’s chief representative), Jesus said “who honors me honors god”, no problem
But if you mean ... I don’t know what you mean. Do you mean his finger nails they were diving when he cut them and he buried them they were Pieces of god, I don’t know “what do you mean”, you see
Q11: what I mean is the way that you acknowledge Jesus Christ as lord of his life
Miller: you are saying the way (do you acknowledge as lord of your life)
Any prophet is lord of my life, in that if I find out this is something he used to do then … and he offered it as a command that I should do it then I will do it
I don’t know if anything I am doing that … or not doing that Jesus said I should do, OK
Q11: I think that figures … return your free to say … thank you
Miller: … what ever
Chairman: thank you ladies and gentlemen … all right you have just beaten the ban, just one more question
Q12: thank you very much
I preach every one of you … everyone here this evening in the precious name of the lord and savior
What I must say that I enjoyed the discussion
We know that we are confronted here today by a Christian denomination and a Muslim
But us as human beings, I would like to put a question forward
We know that Mr. Deedat and Mr. Miller that we know that our lives has got to end
We know that after this life on earth we are going to go somewhere else
We do believe that
But now Mr. Deedat we want to know … from my belief we say that “except the man be born again he can’t inherit the kingdom of god”
Now I don’t want to just live here on earth and die and my life is finish, we believe in our soul where is it going to enter?
No I would like you to explain Mr. Deedat on those terms (except a man be born again he can’t inherit the kingdom of god)
We believe that the same god created you has created me
So I would like to know my escape my choice as a sinner
Miller: fine … if you are saying am I born again … you see
The words born again are in the Bible, it’s a miss translation you know that as well as I do
The words in the Greek say (generated from above)
No if you school that (born again), that’s fine, it’s close enough, literally …
Q12: sorry just relax, let’s take it slowly
Miller: literally it says in the original text as some bible translated “unless a man be generated from above”
Now some people write “born again”
The real meaning “generated from above”
I am generated from above I believe because I didn’t know what to do then god showed me what to do
So I was born again, I was generated from above, all right
Q12: Sir thank you sir does that distinguish between a sinner man and a righteous man
Miller: of course, one man is often to the road to destruction and the other man is going on the straight path
Q12: yes sir and on his own accord can the born again experience be possible?
Miller: it comes from god, how can it be on your own accord
Q12: Amen praise the lord, as I say we believe in god, we shall inherit the kingdom of god
Miller: yes ok
Q12: only one way can go through god isn’t it sir?
Miller: yes of course, but what a person should worry about is reported Jesus said in Mathew chapter 7 “many people will come to me on that day and say master, we used to do wonderful things in your name” and he said “I will tell them, get away from me I never knew you”, now …
Q12: that’s hypocrite
Miller: yes … yes sure, but these people are saying, you know, we did wonderful things
So what I am saying is everyone who says he is born again … that’s not a magic ticket, he may not know what he is talking about
Q12: that’s right
Miller: we agree
Chairman: the mic please, gentleman
Q12: Mr. Deedat as we know, we might have been on different denominations, but let’s face it, the most important thing is that we know that your aim is to win us … people to the Muslim faith, just like the Christians wants to win people
Because we believe that we have one aim, isn’t it Sir? To inherit the kingdom of god
Chairman: Mr. Deedat
Deedat: the beliefe is there
But we can suffer from hallucinations
You see people thinking that they are on the right track
They are actually disobeying the laws and commandments of god
Instead of worshiping god they are worshiping a created being
A creature born in the stable to a Jewish girl
Now you say he is your god
So for that we say that you are going to go to hell
There is no way out for you because you are now comforting divinity upon a human being
And this human being never claim to be god
You see this human being was born in the stable 2000 years ago
In the stable he was circumcised on the 8th day
He used to drink milk from his mother’s breast
He used to wet his napkins
I don’t know … I can see … look you have been agreeing with the speaker all along
I was watching you, you were agreeing, agreeing all along
But somehow at the back of the mind there is another type of … you know … cultivation
Which is making you to think that you have got the right road
But you are my child on the wrong road
You see Jesus Christ never said he is god … no where
Nor did he say worship me … any where
So if you have a church … you know if you have a church … your minister, your father, your bishop
Ask him to organize a meeting and we will come and listen to him
You see on all this things you are talking
And we will question them
And I assure you bishop or your pop will get cold feet, and he will never allow anybody to question them
There are Christian missionaries here, they are going to deliver lectures but they have not got that courage of the convection to allow the Muslims to question them
They want to push things down people throats
Look this we haven’t done to you
We have given you a very fair opportunity as you will acknowledge
But people have been dragging there feet to the mic
That you will also agree, look you should have been the first man … look they have been dragging there feet
So, look you were there, people from the outside have been coming in
But it took you so long to come, you are the last man, man god bless you
But now look, what you do, arrange a meeting or dialog or a discussion or a debate
Go ahead and arrange it and we will come and meet you on your ground
Chairman: thank you Sir
Ladies and gentlemen unfortunately no time remains for questions, thank you very much for attending
I am sure we are all enriched by our attendance here this evening
Thank you ladies and gentlemen
 
Assalamu alaikum,
Transcribing sheikh Ahmed Deedat is a great job. If anyone has transcribed any of the other videos of him please email me {[email protected]}. I would pay for it.
Here is the transcription of the debate between sheikh Ahmed Deedat and Jimmy Swaggart.
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The link to the video that is used for this transcription is:
The link to the transcription is: http://goo.gl/dxVWEH

The is the whole debate if you want to copy it from here:
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Deedat’s American tour.

Baton Rouge.

University of Louisiana

Ahmad Deedat, Jimmy Swaggart

Is the Bible God’s word?

(Prelude to the debate:

The Islamic student association of Louisiana sent us an urgent S.O.S for a debate with a reverent jimmy Swaggart. Our Mr. Ahmed Deedat immediately accepted it and it was proposed that each speaker should speak for 60 minutes. The reply from jimmy Swaggart’s ministry was that they wanted each speaker to have 20 minutes only. We were disappointed, as a subject like “Is the Bible God’s Word?” cannot be dealt with fairly in such a short space of time. (As you audience will judge for yourselves in what follows). However, it was settled for 40 minutes each, after our organizers had done some hard bargaining. Surprisingly the viewers will see that at the end of 30 minutes jimmy Swaggart clearly states that he has only covered one third of his case. We do not know what to make of this from a person who in his own words has been preaching to vast audiences for so many years. Our Mr. ached Deedat could have gone on for many more minutes establishing his contention that the bible is not the word of God. If jimmy Swaggart thought that by limiting the time he would be scoring points then you the viewers be the judge…)

Speaker:

Assalamw Alaikum. Peace be upon you. Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahim. In the name of Allah, God, the Most Gracious. Brothers and sisters, and friends. I will give you the format today. Reverend Jimmy Swaggart will begin. He will address us for thirty minutes, and then Brother Ahmad Deedat will speak for forty minutes. And finally, Reverend Jimmy Swaggart will come back to the podium to address us for another ten minutes. We thought this would be fair and just, and they both have agreed. After that time you (the audience) will have your opportunity to raise your questions to these speakers. You will have one hour for questions and answers. Again, the debate “Is the Bible the word of God?” Let us, Muslims and Christians, be on our behavior. May Allah, the Almighty, bless us. I bring you the Reverend Jimmy Swaggart.

Jimmy Swaggart:

Thank you so very very much. I am so very happy to be here tonight, and even though this debate or these addresses are given by our Muslim friends, still, this distinguished scholar from the world of Islam Mr. Ahmad Deedat has come to be with us in our town, and I just met Mr. Deedat this afternoon, just a few minutes I should say this evening. And he is one of the types of gentlemen that you meet and you like him instantly. And I want all of the Christians here in the course, and know that you Muslim would join in with us, and this does not count on my thirty minutes. I want us to give Mr. Deedat a big hand of welcome of friend ship to our city of Baton Rouge. He is a scholar, and I am not a Bible scholar, even though, I am an advert Bible student. He was teasing my wife and I before we came on and said “Islam Allows four wives.” He just corrected me and said “Up to four”. I said “well, Mr. Deedat, Christianity only allows us one, so I had to get the best on the first shot.” I am honored to be here tonight, very pleased to have this opportunity to speak a few words in respect to that which we believe to be the word of Almighty God. I want to say something just before we get started. I have not known too very much about Islam. I do not say that with any type of pride, but I have to be honest. In the last few months, I have studied Islam somewhat that I’ll admit that I have just scratched the surface. Back some, I think it must have been about two years ago now) I made a derogatory statement over television about the Quran. If you were not listening that particular week, I am never gonna tell you what it was. But I apologize to that and I have never done accesses, and I will not do it again, because I feel that it was not the right thing to do. And up to there, I made study (a little bit) as I mentioned a moment ago, and I’ve learned that Muslims are some of the most hospitable people on the face of the earth. And I’ve learned that you are extremely, totally, dedicated and serious about your faith. In other words, it is not just a sham with you, you mean business 4:10. And as our distinguished moderator said a moment ago, “the two most powerful religious influences in the world today are Christianity and Islam.” And I want to say at the outset that every true Christian loves the Muslim people, and I mean that with all of my heart. I have learned to respect the Quran. I have learned to respect the Muslims. I do not believe that Quran is the word of God. I do not believe that Mohammad was God’s prophet. But I do respect your belief, I do respect your faith, I do respect your sincerity.

I am in time again I have, before vast television audiences, I have held up this Bible or one like it, and I am sure most of you have seen me do it. I have do it through television to one hundred forty countries of the world, and I have stated “this is the word of Almighty God,” I have stated that there is no other word of God, and we live, die, sink, or swim on this book. I believe that, and I believe that with all of my heart, But, of course, saying that is really cheap. Those type of words do not really cost that much. And I want to start this out tonight by quoting a passage of scripture that Mr. Deedat and I might disagree somewhat over. But, which is one of the dearest passage in the word of God to the world of Christendom found in (John 3:16 for God so loved the world that He gave his only unique son. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting live).
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16 for God so loved the word that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life] [From the Bible in brother Swaggart’s hand] and I want to use that as the basis for this simple statement that I would attempt to make tonight. I would ask us to bow our heads as we ask God’s blessings upon this 9:47 heavenly father. As we come to thee, we ask that you would help all of us here to conduct ourselves as I know we shall by your help and your grace and the way that you would desire that we do so. That every word may be for thy glory. That we may say only what you would desire in the way that you would desire. And I will ask you all in the holy and precious name of Jesus, and everyone said as Christians “Amen and Amen.”

There is no Christian that will say that God wrote the Bible. God didn’t write the Bible. To be frank with you, the only thing that I know of that God did write was the Ten Commandments on stone for Moses. That was kept in the Decalogue in the Arch of the covenant for many, many centuries. But God never wrote the word of God (Bible): man wrote it. The Bible meaning a library of books. Man wrote it as man was (According to Simon Peter) inspired by the Holy Spirit. Peter said, “Holy men adults wrote as they were moved upon, breathed upon by God to write that which came from God.” God used their personalities, he used their character, he used their concentration to him, he even used their idiosyncrasies at times, but he used men so that his great plan for this planet, for all of humanity could be placed in man’s simple words so that man could comprehend it, and man could understand.

There is no book on the face of the earth that has the textual criticism that this book has had 2 sort of feel insignificant when I stand here attempting to speak about the Bible, when I realize that some of the world’s eminent scholars have critically looked at every single text over and over and over again, sparing no expense, no time, no effort ascertain it was what it said it was. I have read the bible many, many many times, and others such as I have read it many more times, much more educated than I could ever be, understanding both Hebrew and Greek. The first passages of the bible were written about 3500 years ago. To my knowledge, it is the oldest book of revelation on the face of the entire earth. We believe that Moses wrote what is called the Pentateuch, those first five books with the exception possibly of the last few verses in Deuteronomy. And he could have even written that because we believe that God (and I know that Islam believes) that God is so powerful that he could have revealed to Moses how he would die, and exactly how his funeral would be conducted. That would have been no problem to God. Whether He wrote it or whether Joshua wrote it, it was written about 3500 years ago. And the entirety of the word of God, as so many of you know, written by forty men over a space and period of time of about sixteen to eighteen hundred years, with the last book being written roughly one hundred years after the death and the resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ, written by the Apostle John.

Now, it has been critically looked at more, so as I mention that any book on the face of the earth. It is very interesting to know that Yousuf Ali in his widely used English translation of the Quran twice cites “Sir Fredrick Kiniam as a renowned authority. Kiniam formally the principal curator of the British Museum was one of the world’s greatest authorities on textual criticism of ancient works.” So I want to say that again, “Kiniam was one of the world’s greatest authorities on textual criticism of ancient works.” Concerning the textual reliability of the bible he concluded that, “The Christian can take the whole bible in his hand and say, without fear or hesitation that he holds in his hand the true word of God.”

[Note: Yousuf Al does not quote this in his commentary.]

Concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, Harvard professor Simon Grimley, who together with Supreme Court Justice Joseph Storey, was credited with the rise of the Harvard Law School to its eminent position. He abandoned his agnosticism only after months of careful study and hard searching recognized as America’s greatest authority on legal evidence. Grimley found himself logically forced to conclude after lengthy and critical examination that the literal and historical death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the son of God in payment of our sins was established by undeniable and overwhelming evidence. One of the most brilliant, legal men on the face of the earth. In full agreement, professor Thomas Arnold, who holds or held the chair of modern history at Oxford wrote, he said, “ I have been used for many years to study the history of other times, and to examine the weigh and the evidence of those who had written about them; and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort to the understanding of a fair and inquirer, than the great sign that Gad has given us, that Christ dies and rose again from the dead,” which is proclaimed in the word of God. No one ever said that he would die and come back from the dead as Jesus Christ did.

Now some mention about the many versions of the bible. Really, that is an incorrect statement. There is only one version of the bible. There are many translations. Our scholars argue constantly over various translations. King James Version, as we use that term, as I mentioned incorrectly, is really a translation. [Version incorrect???] Others have been put out, they were critical of the King James, even to the point of laboring incessantly to derive the Old Testament from the Hebrew in which it was written, minus a few verses in Aramaic, and the New Testament in Greek. Translations, some are incorrect, we think. I personally like the King James. [Begotten son: from the King James Version. Unique son: Jimmy Swaggart’s Version]. However, the Quran has been translated as well into many languages. There have been different translations of the Quran in English, in South African, and Deedat can correct me if I am wrong. I think it was 1978, the Quran, one particular translation was released that was argued over, and I think demanded that it be pulled from the market. So, the scholars of the Quran have the same problem trying to pull one language over into another that we have in Christendom. That is not easy. In some languages there is even no word for what you are trying to say. So, it is very, very difficult to at times come up with the perfect word to fit what was written in the ancient Hebrew or the ancient Greek, Corinth Greek. There are some twenty-four thousand manuscripts of the word of God, of the New Testament alone, I should say, that date back before 350 A.D. the original statement, or signature or autograph of the word of God does not exist. As I mentioned, the first one was printed on vellum or clay tablets some 3500 years ago. They perished from overuse and from being put on material that had little lasting quality, at least not that long. But at any rate, some 24000 copies have been made. And scholarship tells us, when it concerns the ancient books of quantity it at least ten copies are in existence, you don’t have to have the original to guarantee the original. And when one considers that there are 24000 copies, and there are some variance in the copies we admit. But, basically the text is not changed. There are some books, a number of them called Apocrypha that has not been included in the Protestant bible. The Catholics included in theirs for reasons of their won. And the reason we do not include those so called books in the bible is simply because we believe they were not inspired. When you start to study them, there are ample reasons to show why they are not inspired. Now, Islam tells us that they believe in Torah and the Injil, but this is not the Torah or the Injil; it is a corrupted text. And if it is a corrupted text, then our faith is vain. If it is a corrupted text, then this thatI hold in my hand is not the word of God. Then, multiplied, multiplicitism, multitudes, millions of Christians have believed in vain, lived in vain and died in vain. They tell us that those original books give by God. -Torah, the Old Testament, Injil, the New Testament- were lost. And I don’t think anyone can tell us where they were lost, when they were lost or how they were lost. I guess I would ask this question: if God gave those two original books - The Torah and the Injil - they were God’s words as Quran says they were, and I think any steadied Muslim would guarantee that the Quran does say that there were books given by God Almighty other than the Quran- the Torah and the Injil. Will have God gave those books, could not God have preserved them. We Christians believe that God is omnipotent. Islam believes that God is omnipotent. And if God is omnipotent, He could have preserved those books without them being lost. Mohammed referred to these books quite a number in the Quran and in other holy books, that were written. I submit to you tonight that the Old Testament that I hold in my hand was the same Old Testament the Jews had in the day and time of Mohammed [the new King James Version]. It has not changed. The Injil or the New Testament that I hold in my hand is the same that the church had in the day and the time of Mohammed. God did preserve it. Our faith is not in vain. I believe tonight that I can prove that it is not in vain. I am positive that all Muslims here know it, but after the death of Mohammed there were quite a number of versions of the Quran that were proverbially floating around. And instructions were given by Muslim doctors of religion that Caliph Othman was to standardize the text. I wonder how many Muslims know that. Not long after Mohammed died. Because there were numerous texts of the Quran in existence. Now we are not studying the Quran tonight, but I just want to through this in. All of these contained a host of variant readings. And during his reign reports were brought to him that in various parts in Syria, Armenia and Iraq Muslims were reciting the Quran in a way different to that in which those in Arabia were reciting it. [Reciting]. Othman immediately called for the manuscript of the Quran, which was in possession of Hafsa, if I pronounce her name correctly, one of the wives of Mohammed, and the daughter of Omar, and ordered Zaid Ibn Thabit and three others to make copies of the text and to correct it wherever necessary. To correct it wherever necessary. When these were complete, we read that Othman took drastic action regarding the other manuscripts of the Quran inexistence. Othman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they have copied in order that all the other Quranic materials whether written or fragmenterial manuscripts or whole copies to be burned. If they were not contradictory, I wonder that why he ordered that they be burned. The only one that has ever ordered the bible to be burned were those that hated it. I wonder if it is explained how many passages in the Quran – and it is a beautiful book. Literarily it is unequal – but how many stories were plagiarized from Jewish fables and folklore. I wonder. I want to look for a moment at the alleged contradictions or variations found in the word of God. And from this I will prove to you that this is the word. (II Samuel: 24:4: The Numbering: And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, go, number Israel and Judah.) (I Chronicles: 21:1: The Numbering: And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.)

It mentions that God provoked David, II Samuel; Satan provoked David – I Chronicles. It seems like a contradiction of course. Anyone that studies the word of God Knows that God is said to do things often times that he only allows to be done. To be honest, there is evidence in the Quran that the same thing was done by God. I want to say that again: there is no contradiction here. God often times, in the Old Testament especially, is placed in a position of being responsible for something when He only allows it to be done, and in reality He is responsible in effect when you think of that.

(I Kings 4:26 and Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand sand horsemen). It speaks of forty thousand stall: Solomon’s grandeur. (II Chronicles 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horse and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in chariot cities and with the King at Jerusalem). Four thousand stall relating the same incident and we would have to think “isn’t that a contradiction? It is.” [Difference is 36000]. Plain, pure and simple. It relates the same story. There are several incidents in the word of God stating the same identical thing in various different ways where one account will be given and the number will be slightly changed. [Is this a slight change?]. And another account will be given, it will say two thousand, and in second Chronicles or first Chronicles three thousand or whatever. In Saint John 8: 1-11 tells the story that the woman takes adultery. Some say it was not in the original text. It is an imposition. It is corruption. However, Volker, the Jerusalem Syrian, Metanoia, the epioptic and the early Church fathers say that it was in the early manuscript and those manuscripts, they were manuscripts and they contained them.

There is some lettering in the word of God like (II King 19:1-17) and (Isaiah 37: 1-18) that is identical. The chapters are identical word for word. Why? If God gave it, what? He had repeated himself? Why not? Jesus repeated himself at times. In the Quran in (Surah 32:5, As-Sajda) it mentions a thousand years and in (Surah 70:4, Al-Marij) it mentions fifty-thousand years. A day as a thousand years and a day as a fifty-thousand is a contradiction. [Definitely Not! The Quran is speaking divine, allegorical, cosmic language. Unlike the contradictory counting of the physical stalls of horses in the bible.] Here is what I am telling you. If this was a corrupted text, if it was an impostor, if it was fraudulent, don’t you think the frauds would have removed these alleged contradictions from the word of God. Have you ever stopped to think about that? They left it there. Laboriously, stating over the text to make certain they put it exactly as the manuscript said it, translated from the Hebrew and the Greek. So what happened? If it is the word of God, why would those contradictions be there? Well, it is a little bit simple. They didn’t have Xerox copies in those days, they didn’t have computers; they had to copy them by hand. And copyists sometimes mad mistakes. And I think that our brothers in Islam will agree with that. In the genealogy in Matthew and Luke – in Matthew it gives Joseph’s genealogy and in Luke it gives Mary’s genealogy. In the temple in Jerusalem if there had been anything wrong with – I am running out of time, Ok – If there had been anything wrong with genealogy of Christ, they would have pointed out, immediately, but they did not. This book is a book of history. It tells the given account of thousands of details concerning tons and people, and not one spade full of archaeological dirt has ever disproved one single word in it. Millions of tons of dirt and ruins have been removed and not one single archaeological spade has ever disproved one word in it. Secondly, it is a book of prophecy, thousands, and thousands of prophecies, and they come true. I want to close with this one thing. I have got about three minutes. And I only got about 1/3 of what I was trying to say. [We virtually begged Jimmy Swaggart to speak for 60 minutes]. I have never met this man before this evening. I read his little book that he wrote. Mr. Deedat I will admit I was a little bit taken aback. I expected a little more courtesy, and I – I don’t mean our meeting today, I mean the little booklet – and I was grieved and sad. Saturday night I went to our church to pray. I started to pray about this meeting, and I believe that Lord spoke to my heart. You are older than I am, and I will show you the respect that you are aged and your scholarship most definitely deserves. The Lord I believe spoke to my heart and said. (((You tell this distinguished gentleman, there was another man 2000 years ago Saul who didn’t like Christians, and I think you know the story. Saul met Jesus on the road to Damascus as one out of due time, and Jesus asked him “Why do you kick against the goods?”)

(Acts 9:5: And he said, who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutes: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks). And I believe our heavenly father asked me to ask you why do you- and I say it with reverence and respect- kick against the greatest prophet, the son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. He said you tell Mr. Deedat- if it was God that spoke to me – I love him very very much. For I am a God of Love, and tell him if he will his heart to me, I will fill the loneliness and the ache and the void within his heart, and I will give him a love for Muslim people that he has never known before in all of his life. And I will close this little 1/3 finished statement by saying, we love you, and God loves you, and God bless you.

Speaker: Now, brother Ahmed Deedat.

Ahmed Deedat:

Authubillahi mina Al-Shaitan Al-Rajim, Bismillahi Al-Rahman, Al-Rahim. (Al-Baqara: 79) (Then woe to those who write the book with their own hands, and then say “This is from God, to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.) Sadaqa Allah, Sadaqa Allahu Al-Athim. Mr. r Chairman and brethren, though I wanted to go straight to the subject, the plea that brother Swaggart had made, forces me to make a confession of faith. And that is we Muslims happen to be the only non-Christian faith which makes an article of faith for its followers to believe in Jesus. No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus. We believe that Jesus Christ was one of the mightiest messengers of God. We believe that he was the Messiah, we believe in his miraculous birth, which many modern Christians reject today. We believe that he gave life to the dead by God’s permission, and he healed those born blind and lepers by God’s permission. We are going together. The only parting of the ways, the only real difference between the Muslim and the Christian is that we say that he is not God the Almighty in human form. He is not God incarnate, and he is not the begotten son of God. Metaphorically, we are all the children of God, the good and the bad. And Jesus would be closer to being the son of God than any of us because he would be more faithful to God than any of us can ever be. From that point of view we would agree that he is more preeminently the son of God. But not as the Christians say that he is the only begotten son of God, begotten not made, not in that sense.

Coming to the subject, the subject is “IS the Bible God’s word?” and brother Swaggart has given us to understand that translations and versions are one and the same thing. We Muslims we have a number of translations of the Quran even into the English language. Different people, Yusuf Ali, Marmaduke Pickhall, Daryabadi and so on. We have these translations by different people. And their translation means a difference in the choice of words. Choice of words in translating a certain phrase from Arabic into English. Choice of words. Versions are quite a different thing. Look, here, I have in my hand this Bible, which brother Swaggart as well as many Protestants do not accept as the word of God. [Holy Bible: Douay Version]. This is the Roman Catholic Version of the Bible, the Douay or Rheims version of the bible. This Bible was 73 books. This is an encyclopedia of 73 books, 7 more books than one which brother Swaggart takes oath om- the King James Version. This is the King James Version. He takes oath by it. In his Evangelist Magazine December, 1985, somebody questioned brother Swaggart about the Bible being the word of God. And he says (word of God (and I refer to the King James Version).) In your the Evangelist, of December 1985. King James Version has thrown out these 7 extra books. Thrown out. In other words, those 7 extra books the Protestants do not accept as the word of God. You use certain technical terms like Apocrypha, which the masses of Christendom do not know what is this Apocrypha. Apocrypha means doubtful, weak, not deserved to be in the book of God, such as the Protestants threw it out as a fabrication. These seven books are thrown out from here. So, this version the Christians Protestants will not accept as the word of God. Am I correct? This is not the word of God. So, we put it aside. I agree with you. What you tell me I accept. You say it is not the word of God; I say I agree with you, and I accept, and I put it aside. Now, you tell me that this is the word of God. The King James Version, with 66 books. This was first published in 1611 by order of his majesty King James, [The Holy Bible: Containing the Old and New Testament, translated out of the original tongues, and the authorized King James Version], whose name is still bears today. Authorized Version, authorized by who? Not God Almighty, by King James. He authorized it. Not God Almighty. Now, it goes back to the ancient manuscripts. What is ancient? He says four to six hundred years after Jesus, is ancient now. We have access to the most ancient manuscripts, and this translation here, a version, the RSV, the Revised Standard Version- goes to the most ancient manuscripts. They date from two to three hundred years after Jesus. So, closer to the source, they ....... authentic any document would be. Closer to the source. This is common sense. If in the time of Jesus this was written, and he had signed it, autographed it, no question asked. This is two figures hundred years after, this is four to six hundred years after. So, they publish this translation published in your own country here, as well as in Britain, Canada. All of them simultaneously produced this bible. And we are told, some tributes are being paid to this translation. It says here, "Church of England Newspaper" says that the finest version which has been produced in the present century. "Time Literary Supplement" Says "A completely fresh translation by scholars of the highest eminence, fullest use of the resources of modern scholarship." "Life and Work" another publication says, (The well-loved characteristics of the Authorized Version combined with a new accuracy of translation). And "The Times" of UK (England says, “The most accurate and close rendering of the original." They-these publishers of this bible- the one who got it about first in 1952 they pay going tributes to the King James Version, and I would be disrespectful or fail in my duty if I didn't read those tributes out to you. Why brother Swaggart loves it and I, myself? In every quotation that I will give I will be quoting from the King James Version. I love the language. Only that now they are doing away with certain terms and expressions. It is not suiting the Christians of the time today. Like for example the quotation my brother Swaggart ended with, where Paul on the Damascus road, the persecutor of the early Christians going to Damascus, and he sees a vision, in which Jesus Christ appears to him and speaks him in the Hebrew language: ( Acts 9:5 Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Why kickest thyself against the pricks?) This is the exact quotation from the King James Version, which brother Swaggart, I don't know why, he hinges the word goad. I have been asking the Christians what is goad, and nobody knows what is goad. I say why do you change the words. It is pricks, it should be said “pricks.” It should be said "pricks". This is the original language of King James Version. But now he is talking about goads. I haven't heard that word before in my life. It is a new word. It is a new terminology coming out. Changing the words, the translation. I am still not taking exception to that goads. So, they say about the King James Version. The revisers of the Revised Standard Version - thirty-two scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating demonstrations - that ("the King James Version has with good reason been termed "the noblest monument of English Prose." Its revisers in 1881 expressed admiration for "its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of expression…. The music of its cadences, and the felicities of its rhythm.” It entered as no other book has, into the making of the personal character and the public institutions of the English speaking people. We owe to it an incalculable debt.”) The English speaking people, the Americans, the Canadians, the British and people like me who have adopted English as our mother tongue. I speak English better than any other language, not as good as brother Swaggart, but English happens to be my mother tongue because I dream in English and I swear in English. That makes it my mother tongue, according to the psychologists. Now, it is the tribute. If somebody paid such a tribute to the Quran, I can’t imagine a Muslim scholar bettering it. Now, prepare for the shock! I said prepare for the shock! From these thirty-two scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating demonstrations. They say “Yet the King James Version has grave defects and that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation.” These are not my words. They revised it. And in the revision, the King pin of the Evangelist, the preacher, the hot gospeller, the bible thumper (John 3:16) – no single preacher is worth the name if can’t clinch the deal with (John 3:16). (John 3:16 for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son). My brother Swaggart changed the word “begotten” to “unique” this is not from the King James Version. The King James Version says “begotten”. Heard brother Swaggart on T.V or video this morning. There he is speaking to a group, as if it was his own church group – you know giving some lessons on Babylon. It was that or another one – he used the word “begotten” this morning. And in eight hours time, he changed it to “unique”. I am asking are you ashamed of the word “begotten”? That Jesus was His only begotten son? And brother Swaggart in one of these thirty books – that I had to purchase in South Africa before coming, these are his books, more than thirty I purchased, and I went through each and every one of them, I had to. I wanted to know what my brother is talking about. What does he really believe? Because generally when you speak to a Christian, every Christian happens to be unique, absolutely unique. As soon as you corner him in some way, he says “but I don’t believe in that.” And every one of these thousand million, everyone I meet, he is unique, everyone is unique. He belongs to the Church of England, but he doesn’t believe, you know, what the Church of England teaches. He belongs to the Roman Catholic Church, but he doesn’t really believe what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Everyone is unique. So, I said now what does he say in black and white? And in black and white I found that he uses (John 3:16) and in his quotation in his books he says “begotten”. Tonight he said unique. [(John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.)] Can you see the reason? It is obvious. The Muslims have been taking exceptions to these terms. In the Holy Quran we are told (Al-Ikhlas: 4), that God Almighty He does not beget, and he is not begotten. (Al-Ikhlas: 4), and there is nothing like unto Him. Then, in very strong terms the Quran condemns this Idea that God got a son because begetting is an animal act, it belongs to lower animal functions of sex, and we are not to attribute such a quality to God. As the Christian says in his Catechism. He says, “Jesus is the only begotten son, begotten not made.” And I have been asking Christians, “Please explain what are you really trying to emphasize when you say begotten not made? What are you really trying to tell me?” And believe me in forty years no English man worth the name has opened his mouth to me to explain to me what this word means “begotten”. It had to be and American, he was on a visit to Durban, and he came on a guide to our mosque, and I happened to be a guide. And discussing it came up I said what does it mean, what are you are trying to tell me. What does it mean to say begotten not made. He said it means this – this American tells me – it means Sired by God. I said “what!!!” He said, “No, no, no, I don’t say that. This is what it means.” And believe me that is what it means. “Begotten not made” means Sired by God. I say is that what you believe God did? He says that “no no I didn’t say that. This is what it means.” So, the Muslim has taken strong exception to such an expression about God. That God begot a son. It is according to your language. Your Catechism. The Roman Catholic Catechism, the Anglican Catechism, the Methodist Catechism, the Lutheran Catechism. You accept this, this statement “begotten not made”. He says not like Adam. Adam was made by God. Every dog, pig and donkey was made by God. As such metaphorically, he is the father of everything. He says no “Jesus is not like that he is begotten not made.” I said please explain, and no explanation. So, this was something that we Muslims took exception to, and the thirty-two scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating demonstrations they threw it out. To appease us? Did the Muslims threaten you that “look if you don’t take that word out of the bible, we won’t supply you oil”? Did they do that? The Arabs? Did they tell you “no oil, if you don’t take this word out of the bible”? Why did you take it out? Because it was an interpolation, it was not the word of God. The bible you carrying it has this interpolation. And you said this morning, I heard the tape, you said, “Even one word, if it is not supposed to be there is there, the whole book should be thrown away.” ,the whole book. But it is not only one word. There are chunks and chunks of it, according to your revisers. And brother Swaggart tells me in one of his books that if you want to know anything factual, knowledge on any subject, you go to the experts. And he gives an example that if you want to know something about geology, you go to the geologist. If you want to know about the Bible, where do you go? Go to the barber? To the shoemaker? No, you go to the bible experts, the bible scholars. And they are telling you that this is a fabrication. Then, the Trinity, Fathers and the Holy Ghost. Brother Swaggart also at verbatim from (I John 5:7) where it says ( For there are three bear record in heaven, the Father, the word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.) If he gives me time and says “which book?” I can open it and show it to you which book. At verbatim, his quotation. I said “but it is not in my bible.” Is this not the word if God? In my bible it is not there [The Revised Standard Version]. Why is it not there? Because your scholars, thirty-two scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating demonstrations, bible scholars, they say that this is another fabrication, another interpolation. So, they also threw it out without any ceremony. So, two, and I give you the ascension. Brother Swaggart quotes in his book [Water Baptism] [Mark 16:16] another place [Mark 16:19]. I say it is not in my bible. I didn’t print this. The Jews didn’t print it. The Hindus didn’t print it. You Christians, you produced this book, and you are telling me this is the most up-to-date bible going to the most ancient manuscripts. So, I looked up for (Mark 16) I see it ends at verse eight. Nine to twenty is missing. [Not one word, but verses and verses are taken out!] Did I take it out? The Muslims took it out? No! Thirty-two scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating demonstrations, they thought it fit that this is another fabrication imposed upon Christendom. And they also threw it out. It is not in my bible; therefore, it is not the word of God. If this is the word of God, then that is not the word of God. But, I pick another bible. Look at this. Look at these two, brother Swaggart, identical. Look at them, I see back again, inside. What was thrown out? The ascension. The only two places in the gospels- in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – there are only two places where ascension in mentioned. (Mark 16:19) (Luke 24:51) thrown out of this version, thrown out as fabrication, ascension. And yet these bibles, each and every one of them tells us that Jesus when he went into Jerusalem, he rode a donkey into Jerusalem. (Matthew 21:7” and they sat him thereon.” (The donkey)) Mark says he rode the donkey into Jerusalem. (Mark 11:7 “and he sat upon him.” (The donkey)). Luke says he rode the donkey into Jerusalem. (Luke 19:35 and they set Jesus thereon.” (The donkey)). John says that he rode the donkey into Jerusalem. (John 12:14 “Jesus …..sat thereon.” (the donkey) ). Look God Almighty didn’t miss that out, His son riding the donkey into Jerusalem. Every Tom, Dick and Harry were riding donkeys into Jerusalem. That he didn’t forget. But the ascension is not mentioned not once, and where it is mentioned is now thrown out. But I buy another bible, identical bible. Look, printed by the same printers, look it is there again. What was thrown out, they put is back again. How it come? How it come? What games are you people playing? Look at this! Back again. This is the 1971 version, back again. The ordinary people, the poor people, they don’t know what is going on, what games being played? Who knows? You read the preface, but he won’t tell his congregation what is he reading. In the preface, we are told that individuals, two Church demonstrations, they stampeded them; they forced them that they should put it back. If not, they are going to preach against this book. They say don’t buy this, buy the King James Version, the most up-to-date bible going back to the most ancient manuscripts. No, no, no, don’t touch that. This is the safer one, because it has everything that you want to preach to catch the fish. It is easier to catch the fish with this than with this. The bait, you know, like Dale Kanilgy he tells us in his book. He says how to gain friends and influence people? He says I like strawberry and cream. I think most Americans do. But, he says when I go fishing I put a worm to catch the fish, not that I love worms, but this is what the fish loves. So, I put worm. So, now if you want to catch fish, you’ve got to use the right bait. Ascension is now “restored to the text” says the preface. Why? Not God told them so. God doesn’t speak freely to those scholars as freely as he happened to speak, as brother claimed, with him. Again and again you read that God comes to him. [The Balanced Faith Life by Jimmy Swaggart]. Speaks to him and says, “Son, again “son” which he didn’t address “his own son” Jesus, He never called him son. He speaks in the third person. He says “This is my son in whom I well please.” But to brother Swaggart He says “my son, my son.” Not so freely. I say look this is not the word of God. They say that the church groups by the meantime this was being discovered that they made a net profit of fifteen million dollars on this version, before they could remove it. Fifteen million! [Incest, pornography, Alcohol, Homosexuality, Sodom and Gomorrah] brother Swaggart has written some beautiful books. Beautiful books, and I can’t imagine myself doing any better. Beautiful writings. Incest, he says the dark stain on our society. It has reached epidemic proportion. Incest. In my country, the whites of South Africa according to statistics, 8%of “all white people they commit incest. 8%, one in every twelve committing incest. I don’t know what is the percentage here. But brother Swaggart tells us that it has epidemic proportions in your mighty country, America. And he gives examples from the holy bible. That there are ten cases of incest in the holy bible. I didn’t know that. I knew that in the first book of the bible, Genesis, there were four cases. Brother Swaggart’s book enlightened me. I got the fifth one in the first book. As if this is a text on incest to tell you what are the types of incest you can commit? In a book of God! Ten cases of incest! And I am told that the type of food you eat, you eat junky food you become junky. You read junky stuff, your mind becomes junky. It is these types of things you read. Can’t you see that we are getting programmed? Whatever you see, whatever you read, we are getting programmed. You read about incest, incest, incest: father with daughters, son with his mother, father-in-law with his daughter-in-law, brother with his sister!! What is this! Ten cases of incest! You read about incest, incest, incest. Little wonder that it has reached epidemic proportion. You see Dr. Vernon Jones, an American psychologist of great repute; he carried out experiments on groups of school children to whom certain stories were being read. And he said, “These stories make certain slight but permanent changes in character even in the narrow classroom situation.” The type of stories that you read, the type of stories that they read, the things that they see that is the type of mentality they are going to have. So, I say book of God! Why would God Almighty go out of his way in his holy book to reveal to you ten cases of incest coupled? Ten cases, so I say, therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, this is not the word of God.

The first five books, supposed to be the books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. These revisers, scholars of the highest eminence they are telling us today that Moses didn’t write the books. He didn’t write the books. He is not the author. The author, Genesis author, “the first book of Moses.” Exodus, “second book of Moses”; Leviticus, “third book of Moses”; Numbers, “fourth book of Moses”; Deuteronomy, “fifth book of Moses”. I am asking, why the inverted commas? What for? Why these inverted commas? They are telling you in diplomatic, psychological way that these are not our words, we don’t believe so, but the common man, the laity, the preacher, the bible thumpers, the hot gospellers, this is that they believe, that these are the books of Moses, but Moses didn’t write them. We don’t believe that these are his works, so we put them in inverted commas. This is not the book of Moses, there are more than 700 times in these five books you read the expression “The Lord said unto Moses” and “Moses said unto the Lord” and “The Lord said unto Moses” and “Moses said unto the Lord”. Neither the Lord said this, nor did Moses write it. English, this is your language. This is written in the third person, not by God, not by Moses. If Moses wrote it, he would have said, “The Lord said unto me” and “I said unto the Lord”. Or the Lord says “I said unto Moses” and” Moses said unto me”. This is in the third person and somebody else is writing about these things. It is not the word of God, and it is not even the word of Moses. With regard to the obituary, I found out some Jewish scholars, that Jewish prophets didn’t write their obituaries. Before dying, he says,” on my tomb stone you put these words, epitaphs.” Jews didn’t do that. In the book of Deuteronomy it says, my brother admits that it could be the word of Joshua, but they are supposed to be the books of Moses, how does Joshua fit in? He says, “and there Moses dies in the land of Moab,” “died” in the past tense! – “over against Bethpoer and no man knoweth his sepulcher unto this day.” “And Moses was” – he “was” – “A hundred and twenty years old when he died.” Of course, God can do anything. God can do anything. In an explanation about the contradictions in the bible whether Satan provoked David or the Lord provoked David, he said look, we attribute it to God, that though the devil did it, you say God did it on that basis, would we appear to concede God had those six million Jews incinerated because Hitler did it you say because God intended it. This is what He wants him to do so; God is responsible for the message of incarnation of six million Jews! Or even 600000 or even 6000 is dramatic enough. If Hitler did it, would you say God did it? Are you going to blame God for that? You are going to exonerate Hitler and the Nazi party because you say God did it?! No, reverend Swaggart we don’t think like that. If criminal does such and such a thing, we say it is his action, his responsibility. We don’t say God did it because all the power comes from God. But God has given you the free will to think and to see right from wrong. So, if you do wrong, you are responsible. You can’t hold God responsible, so either David was provoked by Satan or by the Lord. And Satan and the Lord are not synonymous terms in any religion. They are opposite. Satan and God Almighty are opposite things. Pornography, very strong. Brother Swaggart is very strong in his condemnation and I know him. Pornography, any type, whether in written form, whether in picture or in films. It is a horrible thing. In his book, brother Swaggart gives you his research, his study. Number one, he says when you read or you see these things, it acts like a drug, like marijuana opium, or heroine or alcohol; it acts like a drug. You see these things, chemical action take place. And I agree with brother Swaggart, chemical action take place. You know, so, you read about pornography, your mind is getting used to that, escalating takes place. These are his terms. It is the first time I am learning these terms. And you must, then, play the role, act out the role. This is how this sickness and disease overpowers man. He is strong in his condemnation. He is closest to my government in South Africa, because if I take some of the magazines that I can buy at Kennedy airport or Hithro or anywhere, if I take it to my country. I will go to jail for two years. This is my country in South Africa. You know it has this – in the other side of the picture- but as far as religion goes, as far as religiosity goes they are very very staunch Christians. But that country of mine banned portions of the bibl. There was a pamphlet in circulation with extracts, nine extracts from the holy bible (Ezekiel 23). And somebody stood to the censorship ball; he said “look at this.” What is this? So, they made a decree that this pamphlet is banned. Not knowing that these are words from holy bible, these were extracts from holy bible. From the book Ezekiel, chapter twenty-three. I dare any preacher read it to his congregation. I dare any Evangelist to read it to his mother, his sister, his daughter, or even to his fiancée, if she is good woman. Ezekiel, chapter 23. The whoredom of the two sisters – Alolah and Anolibah. The language, the language so Lewd. My government banned it and there were two ministries of the church on the board, when they banned it, but they didn’t know they were banning an extract from holy bible. My government is so staunch that they banned Lady Chatterly’s lover. It is a novel. Lady Chatterley’s lover. It had one offensive word. Four letter word, one word for which they banned for twenty years, but now they have grown big, they are mature now, they allowed it; they have decensored it. They have withdrawn that order against the book. But nine extracts for the holy bible. Is that a book of God which you are ashamed to read to you audience?! I dare my brother, I dare him to read this pamphlet I have it here ready. He doesn’t have to open the book. Here! All those words in read I Said with your usual charismatic language with the usual actions. I would love to see brother Swaggart, I feel ashamed to bribe him. I say look brother Swaggart if you can read it to the audience; I will give you a hundred dollars. What is a hundred dollars to brother Swaggart? When I am reading his book on Roman Catholicism, that he needs two hundred and ninety-one thousand dollars a day to keep his head above water. I calculated, a hundred and six million a year just to keep above water. And in Evangelist of December 1985, he is aspiring, I wish him luck, he is aspiring to one million dollars a day. He needs one million dollars a day. I say good luck to him. Bur now, if I said I will give you a thousand, brother Swaggart I give you a thousand. You know I can’t tempt hi I know. In his usual spirited way I hope and I pray that he has the courage, the guts, which all the preachers in my experience have not had. Read it, read it to your audience and (Ezekiel 13), if you can’t, I can tell you that it is not the word of God. Bible is not the word of God. Here the son mentions man was made. It was for my books, Is the bible God’s words? I had some ten thousand sent to this city, and I think they are available; I don’t know whether they are being given out here. I had instructed them. Give to everybody. Let them go home, and look at it for themselves and read for themselves and make up their own mind. In this book, contradictions. The Quran tells us (An-Nisa: 82) (do not they consider the Quran with care, had it been form anyone other than Allah, you would have found in it many discrepancies, man contradictions). The Quran is not involved this evening, but this is what the Quran says that if this is not the word of God, that will be free from contradictions. Like for example, the example that brother gave, I repeat that. I said look it says in one of the books Solomon 4 thousand stalls of horses; another one says he had 40 thousand stalls of horses. And four and forty is only the difference of a zero. You say. I say, you know my cousins, the Jews, they didn’t know the zero when they wrote the book. They didn’t know. It is my Arab brothers who found it from my fathers in India and they shared to the world. Zero, the Jews didn’t know. They wrote in in words. Four – F- o- u - r - four, in Hebrew of course. Forty f-o-r-t-y - forty. I say now who made the mistake. God or the writers? And they were not safe; we are told that they were not saved from mistakes. Mrs. Ellen G. White, the cultist, the “prophetess” of the seventh day Adventist movement. In her bible commentary she says, she has no motive to lie. She believes in the bible to be the inspired word of God. And yet she says, (the bible we read today is the word of many copyists who have in most instances done their work with marvelous accuracy. But copyists have not been infallible, and God most evidently has not seen it to preserve them altogether from error in transcribing.) In other words, this is his business, God’s business. If He wants to see it fit, if He wants to do a thing, he does it: if he doesn’t, he says go to hell. It is your business. God didn’t see fit to preserve them from making errors in transcribing. (In the following pages of commentary, Mrs. White testifies further “I saw that God has especially guarded the bible.) I am asking from what? (Yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words) in the original manuscripts. They changed the words ( thinking that they were making it plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain by causing it to lean their established views, which were governed by tradition) like the Jehovah’s witnesses. They have produced a translation called the New Way Translation. The Orthodox, you don’t accept that. Why don’t you? Because they have their own lean. According to their own ideas they are changing the words, the same thing that the Protestants did. They were people that believed that Jesus was God, so they said now, they changed the words. So, we say this has been going on from the very beginning. The boast about 24000 manuscripts. Brother Swaggart you know no two are identical. Your scholars say out of those 24000 that you are boasting about no two are identical. Then how do you come to know that this is the word of God and this is not out of the 24000? On the very face of it, when you open the book, the Injil and the Torah, you are talking about, Matthew begins in your version – the King James Version, he says “The Gospel according to Saint Matthew,” “The Gospel according to Saint Mark,” “The Gospel according to Saint Luke, “The Gospel according to Saint John,” I am asking what is the according, according, according? What is this according to? Why according to? I have got brother Swaggart’s book. He says Homosexuality, its cause and its cure. By Jimmy Swaggart or just Jimmy Swaggart. Why in a book of God “according to, according to, according to, according to”? You know why? Because Mathew didn’t sign his name, Luke didn’t sign his name, John didn’t sign his name. These are assumed anonymous books. Anonymous books attributed to God. I say this is not the Injil. Even in your Arabic translation of these books, Arabic translation, it says (انجيل ماثيو), (انجيل يوحنا), (انجيل مرقص), (انجيل لوقا) means the Gospel of Mathew, Injil is used. The one we believe in is (انجيل عيسا), “The Gospel of Jesus”, what he preached. That is what we believe in that is from God. When you look at these books – Mathew, Mark etc. – that these are the books of Mathew, Mark, Luke we believe in the Gospel of Jesus, the one that he preached. We are told by Mathew that he went to a certain place, and he preached the gospel, Mark says he went to another place, and he preached the gospel. Luke says he went to a certain place, and he preached the gospel. John says he went to another place, and he preached the gospel. I say did he have a book under his arm? Did he have a book under his arm? No, whatever he preached was from God. That is what we believe in. if you can produce a document called (انجيل عيسا), the Gospel of Jesus, we would be very happy to give recognition to find out and verify whether it is from God, and I accept it as such. But what you have is Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. And J.B Phillips, a prebendary of Chichester cathedral in England, a page servant of the Anglican Church, when writing about Mathew in his preface he says “ early tradition ascribed this gospel to apostle Mathew” early tradition! That is what people said “but scholars nowadays almost all reject this view.” Which scholars? Jewish scholars? Hindu scholars? Muslims scholars? No, Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating demonstrations. They say that Mathew didn’t write Mathew. They say. He said “the author whom we may still conveniently call Mathew” why conveniently? Professor Phillips is telling you the first book of (the New Testament: 9: 9); (the New Testament: 5: 17); I am wasting your time and minds too. So, I say (Mathew: 9:9), (Mathew 5:7) conveniently. I am using the term Mathew. He says “he author whom we may still conveniently call Mathew has plainly drawn “the mysterious cue” that stands for the German word “Quelle” means sources, “which might have been a collection of oral traditions. He has used Mark’s gospel freely.” In the language of the school teacher, he was copying whole sale from Mark. Mathew, an eye witness and an ear witness to the happenings? With Jesus? One of his disciplines, his apostle? He goes and copies a ten year old boy who was not there. Does it make a sense to you? A man with an eye witness and ear witness, a companion of Jesus, he goes and copies a en year old boy who was not there. Does it make a sense to you? And you say this is the word of God? The genealogy, between Mathew and Luke. We are given sixty-six grandfathers and fathers of Jesus. In a genealogy of sixty-six fathers and grandfathers, except for one name, no two names are identical. Separate lists, everyone is a different name. Brother Swaggart says one is the genealogy of Mary and one of Jesus. I say why of Mary? Does the nook say that? No, the book says this is the genealogy of Jesus Christ. The other one ends with Jesus Christ; there is no Mary inside. Sixty-six names, no two names are alike except one. And the father of Jesus Christ, allegedly, God Almighty, is not there. Can you imagine God Almighty dictating the genealogy of “His son” and yet He leaves Himself out? He is going out of His way to dictate two genealogies with sixty-six names, and He is not in it. He is not there. I am asking what does he try to tell you? What does he really try to tell you when His name is not there? And a man who had no genealogy, we believe, no genealogy. He was born miraculously without any male intervention. You give him sixty-six fathers and grandfathers, and you say this is God Almighty dictate it.

We Muslims brother Swaggart, we take strong exceptions to this type of handling of this mighty messenger of God. We say he was a mighty messenger of God. He was born miraculously. The Holy Quran testifies to that. It has made a thousand millions Muslims in the world today without any kind of proof from the Christians to believe that Jesus Christ was born miraculously, and he was the Messiah, he was the word that God bestowed upon Mary. I will be dealing with the subject tomorrow night as “Mohammed, the natural successor to Christ” and I will be open to further questions besides the questions this evening. So, with these words Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I am very very grateful to be community here of creating such an opportunity for me to share the platform with the greatest charismatic speaker in the world today Brother Jimmy Swaggart. I think it is a privilege and honor for me. Thank you.

Speaker:

And, now, for ten minutes; Reverend Jimmy Swaggart.

Jimmy Swaggart:

I looked at the Bible that Mr. Deedat has, and from the Quran Surah, what do we call chapter, sixty-two and five, it says “as the likeness of the ass carrying books is the donkey is unaware of the value of load on its back so some men are ignorant of the spiritual treasure they hold in their hands.”

What does the bible produce? That is the Iron clad evidence, what it produces. I was in Africa a short time ago, and I was with a group of minsters, and I was being introduced to them and speaking to them. And I asked – I didn’t ask him – but he was asked “how did you become a minster of the gospel of Jesus Christ?” you see that Jesus cannot be the Messiah, and a great prophet and a liar at the same time. [The subject is “Is the Bible God’s word?”] He is either who he said he was or is a liar. And he is not a liar. Amen. He said this is the way I became the minster of the gospel. He says one of my closest friends was a Christian. We are getting incessantly over Islam and Christianity. One day the young Christian said there is a demon possessed man. In Saint John – I am sorry – in saint (Mark16:17) it says (in my name they will cast out devils). This is a book of power. Amen. Millions upon millions have been healed by the power of God. By invoking that mighty name of Jesus. Millions have been changed instantly from the worst bondages that hell could ever produce such as he mentioned. By the power of the word of Almighty God. I remind you that no dead book can produce those types of result. You can go in our church and over we have people there were former alcoholics, drug addicts, very bondage that hell could ---------------------- and I know your religions of Islam believes in hell, but tonight they are free by the power of Almighty God. Set free in the mighty name of Lord Jesus Christ. The gospel of Jesus Christ produces result. It breaks the bondages of sin. It fills the empty heart. He said we went I went with him; he was going to pray for this man, demon possessed. A maniac. He said when we arrived he was frothing at the mouth. He said I’ve never seen anything like it. And he said my friend prayed for him with no visible results. And he went to get another minister and I was left alone with this maniac. And he said I think I will pray for him myself. And he said he prayed in the name of Mohammed “come out of him”. I asked him “what happened?” nothing. He prayed several times in the name of Mohammed “come out of him.” Nothing. [It is blasphemy for a Muslim to pray in the name of Mohammed]. And I do not mean that disrespectfully of Mohammed. He could have prayed in the name of Abraham or Moses, and it would have done no better. He could have prayed in the name of Paul, Peter and it would have done no better. So, standing there alone, he says I think I try it, my Christian friend has said it, I don’t believe it but I am gonna try it. He laid his hand on him, “in the name of Jesus Christ come out of him.” He said brother Swaggart before my eyes he was delivered by the power of Almighty God. I know that you don’t deny the miracles of Jesus, but I remind you as I close this a dead man cannot produce miracles. I want to say it again dead man cannot produce miracles. Jesus Christ is alive. [The subject is “Is the Bible God’s word?”]. I’ve got two minutes. He said “come out to me all that you labour and the heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you ad learn of me for I am making lonely in heart, and you shall find rest into your souls. One day very soon.” You see, he is promised to come every single prophesy in this book that is supposed to be fulfilled has been fulfilled. Amen. The others that have not yet been fulfilled will be fulfilled. There is a hunger in the heart of every person for God. Only Jesus Christ can fill that hunger because God is love. He loves you. This book says he is. He loves you in spite of the sin and the inequity. He loves you and he wants to make himself real to you. He is not distant, far away, unapproachable. But through Jesus Christ you can approach Him and Love Him, and worship Him; and He will love you because his book says that he does. Thank you.

Speaker:

let’s acknowledge both these fine gentlemen, let’s acknowledge both of them.

[Abdul Aziz Esha, from Dubai, UAE].

[Dr. Khalid Abdul Mohammed from Chicago]

[This is the end of the debate]

[For the question and answers’ session obtain V 34 “Questions and Answers” A review of the complete encounter between Deedat and Swaggart]

[Questions and Answers Swaggart and Deedat]

Speaker:

Gentlemen, now it is your opportunity to which is passing out the sheets of paper. Any question that you have please address it to either reverend Jimmy Swaggart or Brother Ahmed Deedat.

Ahmed Deedat, does the glorious Quran exist in its original and pure form? And where the originals in fact burnt?

Ahmed Deedat:

There is an Othmanic Quran, you know Caliph Othman. Brother Swaggart mentioned something about variant readings, that Othman had those variant readings burnt. And to give an example from his own speech: if somebody was short-handing, taking down notes of brother Swaggart’s speech, he mentioned a number of names, he was actually mutilating them. We forgive him because when he says Ottman or something like that instead of saying Othman. He said something about Omar, which sounds most horrible, we are not taking exception to that because you are not used to read our names. But the person who is taking shorthand, and you reproduce that, you will never be able to connect that you are talking about Othman, the third caliph of Islam, or you are talking about Omar, the second caliph of Islam. Hafsa, you pronounced it correctly. So, in that case, if I was going through the notes for publication, brother Swaggart’s speech, you expect me to leave it as it is, you know the mutilated spelling of Othman which is not Ottman. We say Othman, you say Ottman, and I say look it is Othman. Won’t I do that? So, what happened is this: the books, the Hebrew scripture as well as the Arabic scripture were written originally without the vowel points, without the vowel. Hebrew without vowels, Arabic without vowels. To a native of the language it was quite easy to understand what was being said. But to an outsider without the vowels you can’t make the proper pronunciation. Like, for example in English, if it was written without vowels, that “he man is sleeping on the bed,” the “bed” would be written “bd.” You know it should be “bed” it is not “bid” it is not “bod” it is not “bad” it is not “bud” “bd” stands for “bed”. You know, your senses of the language make you to substitute the vowels in your mind. “bd” stands short for “bed.” The Arab knew that and the Jew knew that. But as soon as it went to foreign nations, the person doesn’t know how to pronounce. Like the word “Alhamdulillah rabil alamin” which means “praise be to God, the cherisher and sustainer of the worlds.” Written without vowels how are you going to pronounce? “Alhamdo, Ilhamdo, olhamdo??” how?? So, different nations, as soon as they started accepting Islam, the way they heard it, they started pronouncing it, they started writing it. Mutilating the language, like English. Some of my people, the pronounce divorce as /daivo:s/. iron as /airon/. What are you going to do? Our spelling between the English of the Englishman and the English of the American your spelling varies. But fortunately the sound, pronunciation is not varied. That produces different in the pronunciation. You say no, you will have to change it. So, those variant reading of the various pronunciations, they said look the revelation was given in the dialect of the Quraish, the family, the tribe of Mohammed, and that pronunciation should be preserved. So, every other pronunciation with different vowel points he said “eliminate them.” And that one was done by Othman is preserved in the museum, in the Topkapi museum in Istanbul. That is in Turkey.

Speaker:

Brother Swaggart, please explain to me how in Revelation there are supposed to be one hundred and forty-four thousand who are supposed to enter heaven and all of them are Jews from the twelve tribes. What happens to the gentiles like us?

Jimmy Swaggart:

Is that your question? The hundred and forty-four thousand as mentioned in the book of revelation as brother said has to do with the Jewish people. Twelve thousand from each tribe has nothing to do with gentiles. And those twelve thousand are chosen from each tribe during the great tribulation period because they are the one that accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour. And so they are raptured up into heaven. It has nothing to do with the salvation of millions that have come to the lord; it has nothing to do with gentiles. It just speaks about those one hundred forty-four thousand. And it also states that whosoever calls upon the name of the lord shall be saved. So any gentile that would call in the name of the lord will be saved as well. I trust that answers the question.

Speaker:

Brother Ahmed, Jesus said (The lord our God is one lord, and you shall love the God, your lord, with all your heart. Mark 12: 29-30) Muslims agree with Christians that there is only one God, but how do Muslims love God without a change of heart?

Ahmed Deedat:

The change of heart, look at the Muslims. Look at them. Jesus said, “By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles.” He said “every good tree will bear good fruit, and every evil tree will bear evil fruit.” Here is the test. The fruits. Islam has created the biggest society of tee-totals in the world. There are some one thousand million Muslims in the world and almost as a whole they are tee-totals. They don’t imbibe alcohol. Here is the fruit. My own particular race, the most racist people on earth, you know, the Hindus of India, the …….. Hindus, the ……….. My nation, and you see the same nation, the most racist nation on earth becomes one who accepts the black and the white, the rich and the poor in his brotherhood. It changed. With all those claims that are being made for Christianity; Jesus Christ transforming people’s lives. You know, the old new goes out of you, and the new you comes into you. I say, my dear brothers and sisters, this mighty nation of America, according to brother Swaggart, eleven million drunkards. That is what he says. Eleven million drunkards, and and forty-four million heavy drinkers. Your nation. And brother Swaggart says I see no difference between them. It means fifty-five million. He considers them to be drunkards. The only difference is that he is not going far enough. In Islam, we say even when you are a social drinker. The holy Quran says – but before that – the prophet Mohammad said “whatever intoxicates in greater quantity is forbidden even in smaller quantity. No excuse for a nip or a tot. Out! The holy Quran says (Al-Maeda: 90 O, you who believe, more certainly intoxicants and gambling) – brother Swaggart in his book on gambling says fifty-four billion a year you are squandering on gambling – (and fortune-telling and idol worship are abominations of Satan’s handiwork, shun such abominations that you may prosper). And wine barrels were emptied in the streets of Medina, never to be refilled. This is the fruit. This is the fruit of his teaching. With two thousand years of preaching look at it! You have these powers of miracle working. Christ gives live. He heals the sick; Mohammad couldn’t; in the name of Mohammad they couldn’t do it. I say my brother, you don’t read the scripture. Jesus Christ, he said, “for there shall arise many false Christ’s and false prophets, who will show you great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” If false Christ can do that, if false Christ can perform miracles, if false prophets can perform miracles, then I say “is this a test?” of your faith? No! Then, Jesus Christ tells those who are doing this miraculous work, he is telling you in the gospel of Saint Mathew, “On that day” – on the last day, on the day of judgement – “many will come to me on that day saying, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesize in thy name, and in thy name cast out devils, and in thy name do many mighty works?” – In you name! In the name of Jesus!! Didn’t we do all these thing; didn’t we do all that? He says yes, he says then “I will profess onto the, I never knew you. Depart from me ye that work inequity.” I say Yes, explain. You! He won’t tell the Jews depart from me, forsake, get away, I don’t know you, he won’t tell the Hindus get away from me, or the atheist get away from me, he will tell you! I want to know why?? Why would he tell you? I don’t even know you, get out. I say Look! These are not the test. John the Baptist, according to Jesus, one of the mightiest messengers of God, Jesus says, “among those born of women, there has not risen another greater than john the Baptist,” and yet, he performed no miracles. Did he? Show me, what did he do? What miracles? No! Miracle is not the test. But the greater miracle is without any miracles you transform nations. Nations are transformed. One thousand million people they don’t imbibe alcohol because of the dictates of Mohammad.

Speaker:

Mr. Swaggart, what will happen to Muslims who believe in Jesus, but do not receive him as lord, as the son of God when they die?

Jimmy Swaggart:

The bible tells us that there is no other salvation under heaven other than by the lord Jesus Christ. Believing in Jesus that he is a miracle worker, that he is a prophet, that he is a great teacher is not enough. You have to accept where he did Calvary cross for your soul to be saved. Man labours under a terrible bondage of sin as a result of the fall. Sin is not just an act that you commit. It is not even a force. It is a nature. You cannot control that nature by cutting of a man’s hand. You have to get to his heart. If all the Muslims in the world are true and happy what they have, why do hundreds and thousands of them watch my telecast? [They also watch Dallas, Dynasty, Hollywood Wives with “religious regularity”]. Secondly, true Christians don’t drink either. What man must have is a change of heart. You don’t deal it from the exterior. It comes from the inside. Only Jesus Christ can do that. Not drinking alcohol is not enough. Just not gambling is not enough. Just keeping rules is not enough. Christianity is really not a religion. It is not a series of dos and don’ts. You cannot earn your salvation. He paid it at Calvary’s cross totally and completely. We accept him, and then the nature of sin is broken. The person does not drink because he fears his hand will be cut off or his toes or his nose or whatever. But he doesn’t drink because his desire is taken away, except Jesus Christ as your personal saviour, and the gospel to the whole world, not to just to select you. For God so loved the world, and incidentally, the word begotten also means to produce, sir. God produced His son.

Speaker:

Ahmed Deedat, does the holy Quran states that the holy Injil is guidance for all mankind?

Ahmed Deedat:

No, the holy Quran doesn’t say that the Injil is the guidance for mankind, nor does the bible say that. You see, Jesus Christ, when he sent out his disciples on the mission of preaching and healing, he instructed them, he says, (Mathew 10: 5-6 Go he not into the way of the gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans. Enter ye not, but go ye rather onto the lordship of the house of Israel). I want to know, where the Americans and the Anglo-Saxons fit in as the Jews, the house of Israel. Then, he is telling a Greek woman coming to him, wanting her daughter to be healed. So, he turns his face away. She goes on the other side, and she won’t let him go. So, the disciples say help her. This woman is persistent. You know, like drowning man clutching at straws, drowning women do the same. (Heal her child). So, Jesus says, (I am not sent but onto to the lordship of the house of Israel), the Jews. So, they say help her. Jesus says, (do not throw the bread of the children to the dogs). Who are the dogs? The gentiles! You and me. Every other human being other than the Jews are dogs and pigs according to Jesus, or according to your scripture. He says, Jesus says, (do not throw that which is holy to the dogs. Do not throw perils before swine lest they turn and rend you). Who are the dogs and who are the swine? The gentiles. He says do not throw the bread of the children to the dogs. The woman is in desperation; her child’s life is at stake. She says, (master, even the dogs have crumbs from their master’s tables). So, he says, (give her the crumbs). This is the scripture. Unfortunately, the scripture is not being quoted. The scripture quotes what Jesus said. I would like to hear what Jesus said. Jesus said – not about the supposed idea that you just believe, and you will be saved- he said, (verily, verily I say unto you except your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees you shall by no mean enter the kingdom of heaven). There is no heaven for you unless you are better than the Jew, and I ask him, how can you be better than the Jews without keeping the laws and the commandments? You answer that.

Speaker:

Mr. Swaggart, form Mr. Deedat’s proof that the bible you hold in your hand is not God’s word. What proof can you proof that he is wrong? I need proof not just belief.

Jimmy Swaggart:

I believe I have proven it beyond the shadow of the doubt tonight that the word of God is true. I don’t know what more proof that anyone would need. You can read the bible and not believe it. But the lord told us to believe it. And we would receive its many many benefits. If one does not want to believe, irrespective of the proofs that prove that is shown one still will not believe, the lord said to one particular individual, if one came back from the dead – he was telling the story of the arrant- in the sixteenth chapter of Luke. And the rich man said, send someone from the dead to warn my brothers. If one came from the dead, he wouldn’t believe that if he doesn’t believe the prophets that are already there. So, there is no proof that one can give for unbelief because it will not believe. That is the reason that he said, and I once again quote my favourite verse (for God so loved he world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life). [Begotten. Now Swaggart is reverting to begotten instead of unique. Why?] And I will close with one more statement. Sir, I am proof that this is real, for he has saved my soul.

Speaker:

Ahmed Deedat, could you quote and give the reference from the glorious Quran stating the holy Injil has been corrupted. And if not, then tell us when it was corrupted, by whom and where exactly is the change?

Ahmed Deedat:

Mr. Chairman and my dear brethren, you see I started this talk of mine, with some incantation, some recitation. I was not trying to mesmerize or hypnotize you. I was actually uttering the words from the Quran instructing us, telling us, informing us that the scriptures that the Christians are talking about, the bible, is their own creation. I repeat what I have said; I repeat and I will give you the translation. In the name of God, most gracious, most merciful. (Al-Baqara: 79, owe to them, who write the book with their own hands, then say this is from God, that they may benefit from it some small reward) – Like the fifteen million dollars, net profit they made on the RSV. Fifteen million is very small compared to eternity, compared to God’s goodness, his salvation. It is nothing, fifteen million – (so, owe to them what their hands do write, and owe to them for what they earn). In other words, I was proving to you all along, actually, I was giving you all a commentary of that Quranic verse, without going into details because I knew time was at a premium. Originally, we have agreed to a format of an hour each and for some mysterious reasons I was robbed of twenty minutes, so I had to cut short everything. I had so much more to give, which I am now reserving for tomorrow night. So, the thing is this now. This was actually a commentary of the situation that this book is written with their own hands. You add in and you take out. You add in and you delete. Look, this is proof enough. The book that you have in your hand is a proof that the books have been changed. You have been changing them, and out of the two thousand manuscripts I say no two are identical. That is a challenge: no two of those manuscripts are identical.

Speaker:

Mr. Swaggart, is there anywhere in the Old Testament that says that Prophet Mohammed will come after Jesus? Thank you.

Jimmy Swaggart:

Most of the religions try to find the bible in somewhere in their teachings in their beliefs, and so does the Quran: it tries to say that it is mentioned in the bible or Mohammed is mentioned in the bible. But, Mohammed is not mentioned in the Old Testament. I know you are referring to the book of Deuteronomy, but he is not mentioned. That passage is referring to the lord Jesus Christ totally and completely. Muhammad is not mentioned anywhere from Genesis to revelation. Period. [No! Mohammed is mentioned by name in the original Hebrew in the song of Solomon 5:16]

Speaker:

Ahmed, what the Muslims have to say about the fact that people are healed in Jesus’s name?

Ahmed Deedat:

I have no hesitation is accepting this phenomena that it can happen, but these things are happening in Hinduism. People are performing miracles in Islam people are performing miracles. You see, in the name of a false god you can perform miracles. Jesus Christ told that woman, if you remember, you know the woman who had bleeding sickness, …….., seven years, no healing. And she, while Jesus was passing by, she touched the helm of his garments, and she was instantly healed. And Jesus felt that something was drawn out of him. He looks at the woman and says (woman, it is thy faith that healeth thee). Her faith, that she had the faith that by touching him she gets healed. It is your faith. So, in other words a faith in a false god can also perform miracles. Jesus said so. (for there shall arise many false prophets and false Christ’s who will show you great signs and wonders, if it were possible to deceive the very elect). Even the disciples of Jesus can be deceived with such miracles. So, miracle is no proof at all whether the person is genuine or not.

Speaker:

Mr. Jimmy Swaggart, why didn’t the Old Testament mention that Jesus is the son of God? If yes, read it to me please.

Jimmy Swaggart:

In (Izaiah 7: 14 therefore the lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel). And “Immanuel” means “God with us.” Thank you sir. [Immanuel mean God with us not the son of God].

Speaker:

Ahmed Deedat, who would deny that if God has preserved his word, the Torah etc., and the holy Injil in the past, he is able to preserve it always.

Ahmed Deedat:

What I was proving the whole night was that the books have not been preserved. And now you are begging the question. The books have not been preserved. If it were preserved give me the word of recognition. I say what is preserved there? The things that are there have created all the mischief. The type of the book that you are reading as a pornography. I say read it. My brother, look, he had ten minutes, he had more than enough time to read that little chapter of Ezekiel. I said I dare anybody to read to his congregation. And I tell you I dare you will not read it. Reason? Because it is not the word of God. If it was the word of God, you wouldn’t be ashamed of it. If God almighty was not ashamed to reveal the details of the whoredom of the two sisters, I am asking why should you be ashamed? Are you holier than God? That is the indication. You are so holy that you dare not utter the word, but God almighty uttered it. You are holier than God? I say no. the thing is it is not from God. You see the scriptures have been changed. And the Torah he is speaking the about is not the Old Testament. You are telling us that the bible was written by forty different authors. Look, forty different people wrote the book. When we say we believe, we believe in the Torah, means the revelation that God gave to Moses. He didn’t send a book down. Brother Swaggart admits that the only thing that was written by God was those tablets. And those tablets Moses destroyed them. He threw them, and they broke to pieces. These other five books, if they were written on tablets of stones, you need a skyscraper size museum to hold the stones. Where did Moses keep them? Genesis, Exodus, Numbers and Deuteronomy where did he keep them, those tablets of stone? No, we say these are not the books of Moses. Moses would have no reason to belittle his brother prophet, Lot, that he committed incest with his daughters. What for? That Reuben, one of the sons of Jacob, committed incest with his mother. What for? The Juda, the father of Jewish race, from whom we get the word Juda, from whom we get the word Judaism, he had cohabited with his daughter-in-law by the roadside while he was on his way to t Timnath. He sees this woman sitting by the wayside. And you know he goes up to her and says (allow me to come in unto thee). She says (what wilt thou give me?). And he says (I will give you a kid from the flock). She says (what guarantee that thou wilt give it?). He says (what guarantee do you want?). She says (thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff). And the old man gave to her, and he cohabited with his daughter-in-law, and begot twins: Pharez and Zarah. And they are put now in the Genealogy of Jesus. The children of incest are the great grandfathers of Jesus Christ. (Mathew 1:1 this is the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son Abraham, the son David, Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; and Judas begat Pharez and Zarah of Thamar) who are these? Look at the cross-reference. It tells you (Genesis: 38) you find there that there is a father-in-law cohabiting with a daughter-in-law, who bears these children of incest, and they are honored to become the great grandfathers of Jesus Christ. I want to know how does this come into the book of God? How does this come into the genealogy of a man who had no genealogy?

Speaker:

For Mr. Swaggart, please address the request of doctor Deedat to read certain passages from the bible. I think he means the passages that brother Ahmed Deedat challenged you to read in his presentation.

Jimmy Swaggart:

[He scans through Ezekiel 23 from the New International Version]. Mr. Deedat has the problem of answering questions that never were asked. (Ezekiel: 23:1-15) [He has opted to read from the King James Version instead of the New International Version that was handed to him]. How much more you want me to go all the way? Now wait a minute! Verse 19? (Ezekiel: 23: 19-20). Ok wait a minute; I want my hundred dollars now. All Muslims are truthful.

Ahmed Deedat:

All that I have, all that I have is yours.

Jimmy Swaggart:

Here is the hundred dollars. That man got a pocket full of money. If he takes all that money to South Africa, he is going to worsen the US debt. I don’t know what kind of programs you have here in Islam, but I am going to give his hundred dollars to whatever you have here to help pay for this auditorium tonight.

Speaker:

Mr. defeat, you made a statement that Islam believes in the virgin birth of Christ, but God does not beget nor was he begotten (Luke: 1: 34-35) explains the birth of Christ as the holy spirit overshadowing Mary, and the power of the most high poured upon her. How do you explain this?

Ahmed Deedat:

You see brother Swaggart has suggested, during his talk, that the Quran is a copy, a plagiarism, of stories from the bible. Now, let me give this example here, a comparison between what is told in the scripture and what is told in the Quran about the birth of Jesus, if I may. In the name of God the most gracious, the most merciful. (Aal-e-Imran: 42 behold, the angels said or Mary, that God almighty has chosen thee, purified thee, chosen thee above the women of all nation). This is the honor that is given to Mary, the mother of Jesus, in the holy Quran, that she is a woman chosen above the woman of all nations. (Aal-e-Imran: 43-44 O Mary, Worship thy Lord devoutly. Prostrate thyself and bow down to prayer with those that bow down. This is part of the tidings of the things unseen which we reveal to thee o Muhammad by inspiration. You were not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary, nor were thou with them when they disputed the point). I will not go into the full story, but if I may, I will have to do it tomorrow night. But the verses continue. (Aal-e-Imran: 45-46 behold, the angels said o Mary, that God almighty gives you glad tidings of a word from Him; his name will be the messiah [translated Christ] Jesus the son of Mary, holding honor in this world and the hereafter, and in the company of those nearest to God). What the Christians would say “sitting on the right hand of God, not physically, not geographically, but in stature, in spirituality, in the company of those nearest to God. And he shall speak to the people in childhood and maturity, and he shall be of the company of the righteous). When this good news is given to Mary about the birth of the holy son, she says (Aal-e-Imran: 47 she says o my lord how shall I have a son when no man has touched me?) the angels say in reply (even though Allah creates what he wills. Whenever He decrees a matter, He merely says be and it is). This is the Muslim concept of the birth of Jesus. For God took a Jesus without the human father just like that. To create a million Jesuses, without father, without mother, just like that. The biblical version in comparison, I have been suggesting to reverend Duncas, the head of the bible society in Johannesburg, I had to go there to buy an Indonesian bible in Johannesburg, and he called me for tea, seeing this funny head gear of mind and this beard that I was interested in bibles. He called me into his office, and I explained this to him, which was something Nobel to him, something amazing to him, that I was speaking from my book. He said, look this and the bible appears to be the same. I said yes, on the face of it. On the face of it we are both trying to say the same thing. Jesus was created by a special miracle, but I said when you compare them closely the difference between the Quran and the bible is chalk and cheese. I don’t know whether the Americans understand this expression “chalk and cheese.” The Canadians did not because they did not know chalk, the know crayon. Crayon and cheese. These are not the same thing. Chalk and cheese are poles apart, worlds apart. The Quran says for God to create, He merely wills it, and the thing comes into being. The bible says (and the Holy Ghost) – same question, how can this thing be when no man has touched me, or I know not a man, meaning sexually. The bible says (and the Holy Ghost will come upon thee, and the power of the most high will overshadow thee). This gives that picture to the atheist and the agnostic to beat you with. How did the Holy Ghost come on Mary? How did the almighty overshadow her? Like a man doing to his wife? How? No, we know it does not mean that. But the language of the two. You know the Quranic language is for god to create, He wills it and the thing comes into being. The biblical language is earthly. I say between the two, I am asking reverend Duncan, which version would you be prepared to give to your daughter: the Quranic version of the birth of Jesus or the biblical version. And believe me he bowed his head in shame; he said I would prefer the Quranic version to my daughter.

Speakers:

What did you mean by the term “unique’?

Jimmy Swaggart:

After I answer this, I propose that if it is not out of order, that we make this the last question. We’ve been here two and half hours. O I am sorry, very good, fine. They are paying him by the hour; they are not paying me at all. But I got a hundred dollars though. In the Greek translation- let me change it- in the original translation the word unique simply meaning different in any that there had ever been. There has never been one like the son of God is unique. And there has never been one like Mary that produces the son of God as he eloquently explained just a moment ago. It just simply means that there was never one before him like that. There will never be one after him like that. He was unique as God’s only son manifested in the flesh incidentally. We Christians don’t believe in gods. We don’t believe that god is married lives in an apartment in heaven and has many children. We don’t and teach such foolishness as that. We believe that out of love God almighty could condescend it to come down here on this planet and live among men. And to walk and talk among men. And in human form the incarnation to die on Calvary’s cross as the perfect son offering for mankind. Man helpless to save himself, and he did just that, and he told the people. You kill this body and in three days, I will raise it up again. Once again he was unique in that. He was unique in the prophesies, he was unique in his birth, he was unique in his life, he was unique in his miracles, he was unique in his ministry, he was unique in his death, he was unique in his resurrection, he was unique in his ascension. And when he comes back, he will be unique in his coming again.

Speaker:

Mr. Deedat, we have invited you to our Christian nation to debate the topic “Is the Bible the Word of God?” will you now show the courage to invite reverend Swaggart to debate you once again on the same topic in the city of Mecca. And if not, why?

Ahmed Deedat:

You see, if the questioner has asked are you prepared to debate brother Swaggart in the United States in the different cities. I said I am prepared now to offer ten thousand dollars for each meeting in places like the Madison Square Garden, in New York, venues of that kind, ten thousand dollars per meeting, four meetings in the United States: forty thousand dollars. But the questioner is asking whether I would be prepared to invite him to Mecca. Now, I don’t rule Mecca, number one. Number two, if you want to get into Mecca you need a Visa. When I had to come to the United States, your government forced me to get a visa. And I went through the process of acquiring that visa, and I am here. You see, I wanted to go to the old Zambia, you know when Zambia became independent. I wanted to go to Zambia, and at that time Smith was ruling this southern Rule Asia. So, they gave me visa forms. And I had to sign at the back that I do not recognize the illegitimate smith regime before they give me a visa. I had to, I wanted to go. So, I had to sign the document that I do not recognize the illegitimate Smith regime in southern Rule Asia. Same similarly, if I have to come to the United States, I fulfil you terms and conditions. Whatever you tell me I am prepared to go through with it; I get the visa. Without that no visa in Canada, no visa here, no visa for people in South Africa. You have to fulfil the conditions. Now, there is a condition attached to you visiting Mecca, and that condition is that you declare with your lips “lailaha illa Allah, Muhammad Rasul Allah.” The meaning is that I believe that there is but one God, no fathers and Holy Ghost, not Jesus as God, I believe in the one and only God, Allah, which is His name, and Muhammad is the last and final messenger of God. You fill that condition you are welcome to come to Mecca.

Speaker:

Mr. Swaggart, according to your argument, the King James Version of the holy bible is necessary for salvation, can we then surmise that anyone who uses bible or another bible will burn in hell, such as Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics, Jews etc.

Jimmy Swaggart:

I have never said, never believed that you have to believe in the King James Version to be saved that is foolishness. And before answering the question, if you won’t let me come to Mecca, let me go on television over there. Mr. Deedat mentioned the Douay Version of the bible. Sir we do believe in the Douay Version of the bible, translation let’s put it that way. We do not accept those spurious books that were mentioned but we do believe in the Douay translation. We feel it is a good translation. No one has to believe in a particular translation of the bible to be saved. You do have to believe in the word of God to be saved. And once again the word of God says there is none other name under heaven. It also tells us that we are saved by faith. Not by works lest any man should boast. We are saved by the faith in the lord Jesus Christ. And I don’t care where that word is. If the word of God – do you have a Quran over there sir? – And I was openly bought one, Ok. Any word of God that is in this book if you believe it pertaining to salvation you will be saved. You follow what I am saying. If the word of God pertaining to salvation, pertaining to being redeemed, pertaining to be saved, if it is written on the side of a wall some way, to be frank with you, it is written on our heart. That is what the bible tells us. You can memorize this book and worship it, and it won’t save you. It has no power to save you. But the word of God, if that heard to, and that means accepting Jesus Christ as one’s own personal saviour. If that is in the Quran, you can be saved.

Speaker:

Mr. Deedat, how does the Muslims account for different versions of the Quran? Does this make all of the versions lies as you claimed the bible is?

Ahmed Deedat:

I repeat, there is no such thing as different versions of the Quran. I said there are translations, yours are versions. Brother Swaggart in the previous questioning he answered that look; there are seven spurious books in the Douay Version. Seven spurious which he rejects. So, it is a version. There are seven books out of this which he is not prepared to accept as the word of God. Whereas every Quran in the world translated as it is God’s word. Translated, and we have a choice of words, but they are not versions. This is aversion, this is a version. Chunks ad chunks are thrown out from what is in here. Different versions. I hope you understand my English. I don’t know how how simpler I can put it to you. Things are varying. What are in here seven books, not in here. What is in here, not in there. What is in here, it is taken out from there again. Can you see? It is a version. I hope, I don’t know!!!

Speaker:

Reverend jimmy Swaggart, what is trinity?

Jimmy Swaggart:

We believe the word of God teaches that there is one God. Not two, five, ten, twelve, fifteen. One God, manifested in three persons. Three different personalities. We believe there is a heavenly father, we believe there is God the son, and we believe the Holy Ghost, as Mr. Deedat mentioned that came upon Mary, is also God. They are indivisible, meaning they agree perfectly. They are one in unity. The never disagree, they never have disagreed. We believe that when you get to heaven, if you get there, Jesus Christ, the son of God will be seated according to the word of God by the right hand of the father. And, well actually, maintain that throne forever, basically. That is what we mean by trinity in a short nutshell.

Speaker:

We have time exactly for two more questions. Mr. Deedat, do you believe in the Holy Ghost? Why? Or why not?

Ahmed Deedat:

You see, the idea of the Holy Ghost in Christendom is that He is one in a trinity. Where the Christian says that the father is God, the son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, but they are not three gods but one god. In his catechism he continues that the father is almighty, the son is almighty, and the Holy Ghost is almighty, but they are not three almighties but one almighty. It continues, your catechism. He says the father is a person, the son is a person, and the Holy Ghost is a person – that is what brother Swaggart says in his book- person, person, person, but not three persons but one person. I am asking what language are you speaking? I am asking is that English? By God, it is gibberish; it is not English. You see, he said person, person, person, but not three persons but one person. I say brother Swaggart, you and your two other brothers let’s say that you are three identical triplets, and we can’t make the difference out between the three of you. They are all identical; we can’t make out the difference. If one of you commits murder, can you hand the other? You say no. I as asking why not? So, you tell me that he is a different person. I say right! What makes him different? His personality. So, the father, you know imagination, the human mind, you can’t help. When you use words, they conjure up mental pictures. When you say in the name of the father, you have a certain mental picture of that old father Christmas, Santa Claus, millions and million times bigger than man, but something like a man, sitting on some planet, dangling to the foot stool, the heavens as his canopy, the loving father in heaven. When you say god the son, I am asking are thinking of a prize bull or a Volkswagen? No, you are thinking of a handsome young man, blonde hair, blue eyes, handsome features, something like what is seen in the King of Kings, Jesus of Nazareth, you know On the Day of Triumph, where Jeffery Hunter was acting, handsome young man, blonde hair, blue eyes, handsome features, nice beard, not with the Polly nose, with the crooked nose, that make other pictures come to your mind, you know Shakespeare made Shylock famous, he says shylock, shylock, no. you see, so, you are thinking of somebody like an Englishman, or a nomadic, or a German type, with the straight nose, the son. The Holy Ghost, something that came like a dove when Jesus was baptizes in the river Jordan by john the Baptist, or something that came in flame in the Pirate Penticton coast. I say the picture is not very vivid, but the picture is there. Three distinct mental pictures. And how so hard you try, you can never superimpose these three pictures and create one. They will ever be three in your mind. But when I ask you how many pictures you see, you say one. You are lying to me, brothers and sisters you are lying to me.

Speaker:

Actually, we have got three minutes. Mr. Swaggart, this question is from the management. Do you give us permission to anyone interested in obtaining a copy of this event? Number one. Number two, why didn’t you allow televising this event? And number three, we have offered this opportunity to televise this event in Mecca, but it was refused.

Jimmy Swaggart:

Shame on you, you did misquote me. I did not say that God is a person, the son is a person, the Holy Ghost is a person, and they are one person. I didn’t say that. I said there is one God, not one person. [This is what is written in your book on page 9]. It seems to me that they are televising it. I see one, two, three, four, five cameras. You said they are not televising it? They are televising it. Aren’t they? I am a little confused. I don’t understand.

Speaker:

Do you give us permission for anyone interested to obtain a copy of this event? A video?

Jimmy Swaggart:

Yes. We will certainly do that providing that you do not edit the tapes. You see, I know a little bit about television. You can make anyone say just about anything you want them to say by chopping it up. We are experts at that Mr. Deedat. And I would trust this man. Are you looking at me sir? I trust you? But, I don’t trust the whole world that I do not see. And we ask to sign a statement if you want to televise it and take it with you. Do whatever you want to do with it, providing that you tell us where you are going to edit it? And how you are going to cut it. I think that is only fair. We would not want to take anything he said, and chop it up and make him to seem to say something that he did not say, that wouldn’t be right and fair. And I thank that we’ve been just about as Christians as anyone can ever be.

[Abdul Aziz Eshaq from Dubai U.A.E].
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