Hello

a_stranger

Junior Member
Stoning a person to death will of course stop that person from committing rape again. But it will not stop the crime of rape. The only way to prevent rape is as you say through education. That is a hard task as many believe rape is sexually motivated whereas in truth it is about power. Although I don't deny sexual frustrations have a place to play in most cases.

Peace Cariad,
Such punishment should be carried out in public so that it prevent others from committing such crime. But as I said the punishment is the last thing we should think of. Islam plants in hearts of people love of Allah : the most merciful loving creator , hope for eternal happiness in Janna and fear of hell. This combination of love, hope and fear is meant to create a living sensitive conscience that love to do all that is good and reject all that is evil. Quran instructs believers to have piety , lowers gaze , and dress modestly. Islam encourages marriage and Allah rewards the mother and father for caring for their families. No nudity is allowed in Islam . A muslem should not watch what is Haram (forbidden in Islam ). Purity of hearts is the essence of Islam since pure hearts are close to Allah subhanahu wa taaala , while small and big sins make a veil between the creature and his creator. I know that nowadays the media is free from any morality , it kills modesty inside hearts of people and enhance lusts and desires . They call it freedom , while it is actually locking people inside their own desires and making them slaves to materialism values . Faith teaches us how to rise and guide our own selves to a straight path, and make our souls fly to a higher domains.
With respect.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment.(2:178)

And there is for you in legal retribution [saving of] life, O you [people] of understanding, that you may become righteous.(2:179)


And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in [the matter of] taking life. Indeed, he has been supported [by the law].(17:33)

Eye for an eye is not a revenge justice, it is the absolute justice. It is to prevent killings(see the second verse;And there is for you in legal retribution [saving of] life ). The relatives of the victim has the right to demand "eye for an eye", and also they have the right to forgive the murderer with or without a payment. That is what i call justice.

Sorry mezeren, I cannot agree that it is absolute justice. Surely compassion and rehabilitation should rule justice, not vengeance. Because basically, it is vengeance, however you dress it up.

An eye for an eye attitude tends to perpetuate violence, rather than solve the underlying problems. That attitude tends to fuel most feuds, and almost every historical example of enmity between peoples and nations. Vengeance is human nature, but reacting with compassion and an eye towards problem solving can often do more good in the long run. Have you heard the expression "An eye for an eye serves to make the whole world blind"? It was realised by many cultures thousands of years ago the the cycle of revenge continues until revenge is no longer considered a suitable repercussion. This is why justice systems are removed to a degree from the "victim". Additionally, if someone commits a crime, doing the same unto them is logically a crime as well. Yeshua said of such justice that was first found in Old Testament...

Matthew 5:38-48
Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Although the "eye for an eye" justice was first found in the Old Testament we have no indication that the law of “an eye for an eye” was followed literally..there is never a biblical account of an Israelite being maimed as a result of this law. Also, before this particular law was given, God had already established a judicial system to hear cases and determine penalties a system that would be unnecessary if God had intended a literal “eye for an eye” penalty. Although capital crimes were repaid with execution in ancient Israel, on the basis of multiple witnesses most other crimes were repaid with payment in goods.... Like if you injured a man’s hand so that he could not work, you compensated that man for his lost wages.

This "law" is mentioned twice in the Old Testament each time, the phrase is used in the context of a case being judged before a civil authority such as a judge. “An eye for an eye” was thus intended to be a guiding principle for lawgivers and judges; it was never to be used to justify vigilantism or settling grievances personally. But in the New Testament, it seems the Pharisees and scribes had taken the “eye for an eye” principle and applied it to everyday personal relationships. They taught that seeking personal revenge was acceptable. If someone punched you, you could punch him back... if someone insulted you, he was fair game for your insults. The religious leaders of Jesus’ day ignored the judicial basis of the giving of that law. That is the very problem mankind naturally wishes vengeance, which is not always the best way for society. Eye for an eye can too often result in "vigilantes" seeking vengeance.

In Sermon on the Mount (verse above) Yeshua addresses the common teaching of personal retaliation He then reveals God’s heart concerning interpersonal relationships: “Do not resist an evil person..... Etc

In giving this “new” command, Yeshua is not nullifying the Old Testament law Rather, He is separating the responsibility of the government (to punish evildoers justly) from the responsibility we all have on a personal level before God to love our enemies. We should not seek retribution for personal slights. We are to ignore personal insults... Etc.

Peace to you
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Peace Cariad,
Such punishment should be carried out in public so that it prevent others from committing such crime. But as I said the punishment is the last thing we should think of. Islam plants in hearts of people love of Allah : the most merciful loving creator , hope for eternal happiness in Janna and fear of hell. This combination of love, hope and fear is meant to create a living sensitive conscience that love to do all that is good and reject all that is evil. Quran instructs believers to have piety , lowers gaze , and dress modestly. Islam encourages marriage and Allah rewards the mother and father for caring for their families. No nudity is allowed in Islam . A muslem should not watch what is Haram (forbidden in Islam ). Purity of hearts is the essence of Islam since pure hearts are close to Allah subhanahu wa taaala , while small and big sins make a veil between the creature and his creator. I know that nowadays the media is free from any morality , it kills modesty inside hearts of people and enhance lusts and desires . They call it freedom , while it is actually locking people inside their own desires and making them slaves to materialism values . Faith teaches us how to rise and guide our own selves to a straight path, and make our souls fly to a higher domains.
With respect.
But it does not work. :( Making a public display of punishments no matter how barbaric is not a real deterrent. In many cases when a person commits a crime like theft or rape they do not intend or expect to be caught, so how is a punishment going to deter them if they believe it will never be applied to them?

Also who sees this punishment? Is it compulsory to watch or an option? I would imagine having to watch someone being flogged, stoned or having a limb cut off could possibly harm a person emotionally.

Now I agree that what is more important is love for God, because where this is present there is only the desire to do Gods will which means avoid sin as best you can. I don't 100% agree with dress or attitude having such a bearing on sin, as sin comes from within a person and weather you are dressed modestly or not or averting ones gaze or such things does not mean you are less likely to sin. An person outwardly appearing as pious can still have a sinful heart. I believe God gives us the moral strength to resist sin no matter what if our heart is in the right place... Which is with Him. :)

I have lived in a western society pretty much all my life, it's true immorality and materialism does seem more prevalent, but this could be because western societies tend to be secular and as such more "open". Although of course I would prefer immorality and materialism was absent altogether realistically I know this is not possible, I would rather see it open that hidden. Because every society has a "dark side" yes... Even Islamic ones do if they did not they would be crime free Utopias, but they are not. Anyway, I was going to say, living in a western society has not made me wish to sin, because my love and faith in God strengthens me from within. That's not saying I am free of sin no one can be all of the time, but I always strive to do my best. :)

Peace.
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
Sorry Cariad I have been very rude talking about stoning and punishments . I gave a wrong impression about Islam and myself . Talking about punishment in Islam without explaining the introduction of how Islam treats hearts of people, how Islam changes what hearts contains , how Islam full human hearts with faith, love , glorifying ,knowledge , gratitude , humility towards the one who created us is just like reading a book from the last chapter . I myself can't watch the sufferings of an animal how about a human ?. Stoning in a true muslem society will not be carried out unless the criminal insist to be freed from sin. Islam prefer repentance , forgiveness and put many obstacles within selves and society to stop crimes of any kind and if happened to treat them wisely . It starts with hearts and make them feel that Allah is watching so we should purify what our creator is watching if a bad though come , it should pass and never settle in the heart. Quran talks to human hearts and minds opening a wide door of the unseen and make hereafter clear by sincere faith. Islam give us the means to strengthen our faith continuously by sincere worshiping (ibada) . It concentrates on hearts, souls, selves, minds and build a balanced personality that walks purely humbly on earth while souls flies to heavens five time a day .

I was discussing some islamic issue with a brother, and my hate to such a crime made me look barbaric:12-angry-blue:. Sometimes people try to be merciful to the rapists forgetting the suffering of the victims this is unfair and encourage more crimes. People should know that there is a sever punishment for horrible crimes.


Still first we should speak about mercy and love of Allah subhanahu wa taaala , if hearts was softened by faith then it will reject all kinds of evils and we will live peacefully.
Allah guide us all Aaammen.
 

mezeren

Junior Member
But it does not work. :( Making a public display of punishments no matter how barbaric is not a real deterrent. In many cases when a person commits a crime like theft or rape they do not intend or expect to be caught, so how is a punishment going to deter them if they believe it will never be applied to them?

Also who sees this punishment? Is it compulsory to watch or an option? I would imagine having to watch someone being flogged, stoned or having a limb cut off could possibly harm a person emotionally.

Now I agree that what is more important is love for God, because where this is present there is only the desire to do Gods will which means avoid sin as best you can. I don't 100% agree with dress or attitude having such a bearing on sin, as sin comes from within a person and weather you are dressed modestly or not or averting ones gaze or such things does not mean you are less likely to sin. An person outwardly appearing as pious can still have a sinful heart. I believe God gives us the moral strength to resist sin no matter what if our heart is in the right place... Which is with Him. :)

I have lived in a western society pretty much all my life, it's true immorality and materialism does seem more prevalent, but this could be because western societies tend to be secular and as such more "open". Although of course I would prefer immorality and materialism was absent altogether realistically I know this is not possible, I would rather see it open that hidden. Because every society has a "dark side" yes... Even Islamic ones do if they did not they would be crime free Utopias, but they are not. Anyway, I was going to say, living in a western society has not made me wish to sin, because my love and faith in God strengthens me from within. That's not saying I am free of sin no one can be all of the time, but I always strive to do my best. :)

Peace.

Hi Cariad,

I think you don't get it. It is not that difficult. "Eye for an eye" is not a necessity. It is the right for the family of victims. On the other hand they are advised to forgive. So, without seeing this you can not say it is not justice. You are given the right and oportunity to forgive. What else would you want?

Islam is about law and love. Islam is the religion of balance. It is not like Judaism which is all about law or Christianity which is all about love. They lack the balance unlike Islam. If you turn your other cheek when someone hits you, it is, to me, stupidity (forgive my language). It is your right to retaliate in the exact way and that is justice. And you are advised to forgive and that is love. Someone kills your loved one and you say "come and kill me as well". And you defend this. I cannot understand. It is real justice and love in Islam. You can not let a serial killer or rapist get away with what they did. That would be a false love and absolute injustice. It is simply encouriging them to more killing and harm. But, hey, don't forget, islam gives you that choice to forgive such evil people as well.
 

mezeren

Junior Member
But it does not work. :( Making a public display of punishments no matter how barbaric is not a real deterrent. In many cases when a person commits a crime like theft or rape they do not intend or expect to be caught, so how is a punishment going to deter them if they believe it will never be applied to them?

Also who sees this punishment? Is it compulsory to watch or an option? I would imagine having to watch someone being flogged, stoned or having a limb cut off could possibly harm a person emotionally.

Now I agree that what is more important is love for God, because where this is present there is only the desire to do Gods will which means avoid sin as best you can. I don't 100% agree with dress or attitude having such a bearing on sin, as sin comes from within a person and weather you are dressed modestly or not or averting ones gaze or such things does not mean you are less likely to sin. An person outwardly appearing as pious can still have a sinful heart. I believe God gives us the moral strength to resist sin no matter what if our heart is in the right place... Which is with Him. :)

I have lived in a western society pretty much all my life, it's true immorality and materialism does seem more prevalent, but this could be because western societies tend to be secular and as such more "open". Although of course I would prefer immorality and materialism was absent altogether realistically I know this is not possible, I would rather see it open that hidden. Because every society has a "dark side" yes... Even Islamic ones do if they did not they would be crime free Utopias, but they are not. Anyway, I was going to say, living in a western society has not made me wish to sin, because my love and faith in God strengthens me from within. That's not saying I am free of sin no one can be all of the time, but I always strive to do my best. :)

Peace.


Anyone who commits a crime do not intend to be caught but they do expect to be caugt, indeed. Actually, they are almost certain that sooner or later they will be caught(the hope they have about getting away does not change that). But, they think that, "if i am caught, i'll have a couple of years in prison and get out.". Then, they(not all but some) carry on like this harming others in the way. Do you really think that such people believe they will never get caught? Don't they see others get caught and punished? No way. And, if you think that punishment does not deter them, i'll say, you are wrong. It is human psychology that we are affraid of being punished. Only the incorrigible ones will not be detered from committing again and those are the one that really deserves the punishment.

Punishment is for preventing in the first place. But, punishment is not enough by itself. There needs to be measures in the whole structure that eleminates the possibility of a crime. While all the media provoking desires and promoting lust, you do not expect the rape crimes to decrease. When you encourage alcohol and make it a part of your society, you can not expect any kind of crime to decrease, similarly. You need to adjust the whole system accordingly and punishment is a vital part of that system.

Life is a balance. It includes forgiveness and punishment. If you distrupt that balance you will loose from the start. All that "love,love and love" stuff is a hoax. It may sound nice to some ears, but at the end it is wrong.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Sorry Cariad I have been very rude talking about stoning and punishments . I gave a wrong impression about Islam and myself . Talking about punishment in Islam without explaining the introduction of how Islam treats hearts of people, how Islam changes what hearts contains , how Islam full human hearts with faith, love , glorifying ,knowledge , gratitude , humility towards the one who created us is just like reading a book from the last chapter . I myself can't watch the sufferings of an animal how about a human ?. Stoning in a true muslem society will not be carried out unless the criminal insist to be freed from sin. Islam prefer repentance , forgiveness and put many obstacles within selves and society to stop crimes of any kind and if happened to treat them wisely . It starts with hearts and make them feel that Allah is watching so we should purify what our creator is watching if a bad though come , it should pass and never settle in the heart. Quran talks to human hearts and minds opening a wide door of the unseen and make hereafter clear by sincere faith. Islam give us the means to strengthen our faith continuously by sincere worshiping (ibada) . It concentrates on hearts, souls, selves, minds and build a balanced personality that walks purely humbly on earth while souls flies to heavens five time a day .

I was discussing some islamic issue with a brother, and my hate to such a crime made me look barbaric:12-angry-blue:. Sometimes people try to be merciful to the rapists forgetting the suffering of the victims this is unfair and encourage more crimes. People should know that there is a sever punishment for horrible crimes.


Still first we should speak about mercy and love of Allah subhanahu wa taaala , if hearts was softened by faith then it will reject all kinds of evils and we will live peacefully.
Allah guide us all Aaammen.

No not rude, your post are always explained in kindness because I suspect you have a kind heart out of love for God. :)

What you say about changing of hearts from within, this is not only true of Islam. Christians have this understanding that is intrinsic to their being. Many christians follow Yeshua and believe that alone they will be saved.. Not so.. Yeshua does offer salvation but not by virtue of simply calling His name one has to live in Him to live in Him is to glorify God. I know you don't see this or even accept it, but it makes sense to me. :) this is born of love for God.

It would be hard for you to seem barbaric dear.. It would require a great deal of imagination, certainly more than I possess. :) Rape is a difficult matter, and for sure rapists should be punished according to the law of the Land. Victims must also be offered all support they need in order to make themselves whole again. However, what punishment is required? Does a harsh punishment help the victim any? Possibly. But for myself it would not. Mans justice is often "unfair" because mankind itself is flawed. Only Gods justice is perfect and God ultimately dispenses His justice and we can rest easy in the knowledge that it is perfect. I am not convinced that severe punishments are a deterrent against someone committing a crime. If a person commits a crime unintentionally, then they would not think of any possible punishment meted out to them as they did not have afore thought. If a person planned a crime they would do so with the intent of avoiding detection, so they would also not see the punishment as a deterrent to their plan, so sure that they planned the "perfect" crime.

Blessings
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Hi Cariad,

I think you don't get it. It is not that difficult. "Eye for an eye" is not a necessity. It is the right for the family of victims. On the other hand they are advised to forgive. So, without seeing this you can not say it is not justice. You are given the right and oportunity to forgive. What else would you want?

So you give the choice to the family, knowing that possibly in their anger they may seek vengeance and choose some harsh punishment. You can advocate they choose mercy but in reality how many would do so? Giving the "decision" to the family does that not put them (possibly.. If they not choose mercy) in the position similar to the criminal. Like you hurt us so we hurt you back. How is that not "revenge justice"?

Islam is about law and love. Islam is the religion of balance. It is not like Judaism which is all about law or Christianity which is all about love. They lack the balance unlike Islam. If you turn your other cheek when someone hits you, it is, to me, stupidity (forgive my language). It is your right to retaliate in the exact way and that is justice. And you are advised to forgive and that is love. Someone kills your loved one and you say "come and kill me as well". And you defend this. I cannot understand. It is real justice and love in Islam. You can not let a serial killer or rapist get away with what they did. That would be a false love and absolute injustice. It is simply encouriging them to more killing and harm. But, hey, don't forget, islam gives you that choice to forgive such evil people as well.

Not so, Judaism or Christianity are not soft on crime. Turn the other cheek does not advocate we be doormats for nasty people to walk over us and treat us badly. However, it's beholden upon me to forgive them when they do, not for any benefit to them but for benefit to my self. What's that about ... "Someone kills your loved one and you say "come and kill me as well". That makes no sense and christians do not hold to such idea. We must put our faith in the law of the land to mete out justice on our behalf. Personally we must strive to forgive those who have wronged us. Weather or not we may feel the punishment fits the crime. We have faith that God repays all according to His divine justice ... Which is perfect. Why would you even assume that we would think it ok to let a killer or rapist go unpunished is quite frankly beyond me..

I wonder how many actually choose forgiveness over revenge.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Anyone who commits a crime do not intend to be caught but they do expect to be caugt, indeed. Actually, they are almost certain that sooner or later they will be caught(the hope they have about getting away does not change that). But, they think that, "if i am caught, i'll have a couple of years in prison and get out.". Then, they(not all but some) carry on like this harming others in the way. Do you really think that such people believe they will never get caught? Don't they see others get caught and punished? No way. And, if you think that punishment does not deter them, i'll say, you are wrong. It is human psychology that we are affraid of being punished. Only the incorrigible ones will not be detered from committing again and those are the one that really deserves the punishment.

I don't agree that anyone planning a crime expects to be caught. What would the point of committing a crime with the expectation of not being successful in covering your tracks. Hopefully, they may well get caught.. But I doubt that the threat of harsh punishment was upper most in their mind.

Punishment is for preventing in the first place. But, punishment is not enough by itself. There needs to be measures in the whole structure that eleminates the possibility of a crime. While all the media provoking desires and promoting lust, you do not expect the rape crimes to decrease. When you encourage alcohol and make it a part of your society, you can not expect any kind of crime to decrease, similarly. You need to adjust the whole system accordingly and punishment is a vital part of that system.

Really? I thought punishment was a consequence of getting caught. As for the media argument, we are all responsible to how we choose to respond to such stimulus. If you obey God when it comes to feelings of lust, greed, drunkenness etc. You would not be tempted in the first place. Not every person who is exposed to lustful images in the media desires to rape as not every person who drinks alcohol is a drunk. I'm not for one minute saying societies should not punish injustice against its members, that's simply ridiculous and anarchy would very quickly ensue if that were so. I'm just saying I believe that if you give victims or families of the choice they are more likely to choose vengeance over mercy. I don't see that as any benefit to anyone. Certainly not the victim or their family.

Life is a balance. It includes forgiveness and punishment. If you distrupt that balance you will loose from the start. All that "love,love and love" stuff is a hoax. It may sound nice to some ears, but at the end it is wrong.

Yes life is a balance, but vengeance is not a balance. Don't be scoffing at the principle of love as a basis. Far from being a hoax.. God IS love, all creation is born from His love, as His mercy, justice and wrath. You can take that to the bank... :)

Peace.
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
No not rude, your post are always explained in kindness because I suspect you have a kind heart out of love for God. :)

What you say about changing of hearts from within, this is not only true of Islam. Christians have this understanding that is intrinsic to their being. Many christians follow Yeshua and believe that alone they will be saved.. Not so.. Yeshua does offer salvation but not by virtue of simply calling His name one has to live in Him to live in Him is to glorify God. I know you don't see this or even accept it, but it makes sense to me. :) this is born of love for God.

It would be hard for you to seem barbaric dear.. It would require a great deal of imagination, certainly more than I possess. :) Rape is a difficult matter, and for sure rapists should be punished according to the law of the Land. Victims must also be offered all support they need in order to make themselves whole again. However, what punishment is required? Does a harsh punishment help the victim any? Possibly. But for myself it would not. Mans justice is often "unfair" because mankind itself is flawed. Only Gods justice is perfect and God ultimately dispenses His justice and we can rest easy in the knowledge that it is perfect. I am not convinced that severe punishments are a deterrent against someone committing a crime. If a person commits a crime unintentionally, then they would not think of any possible punishment meted out to them as they did not have afore thought. If a person planned a crime they would do so with the intent of avoiding detection, so they would also not see the punishment as a deterrent to their plan, so sure that they planned the "perfect" crime.

Blessings


Thank you dear Cariad for your kind words , AlhamduliAllah you understood me . I think that you are very kind ،.
I am sure that message of all the prophets are the same in it's essence . The differance are only in small details . We muslems believe in Jesus (Issa peace be upon him ) love him, hope to meat him in Janna by the mercy of Allah.

Take care dear Cariad.
 

mezeren

Junior Member
So you give the choice to the family, knowing that possibly in their anger they may seek vengeance and choose some harsh punishment.

Let me make it clear that it is the state to handle the case, reach a verdict and carry out the punishment. Islam does not allow individuals to carry out the justice.

And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in [the matter of] taking life. Indeed, he has been supported [by the law].(17:33)

"Harsh punishment" is when the punishment overcomes the crime. Death sentence for a killer is not hars at all. As i said earlier, stoning to death is not islamic.

You can advocate they choose mercy but in reality how many would do so? Giving the "decision" to the family does that not put them (possibly.. If they not choose mercy) in the position similar to the criminal. Like you hurt us so we hurt you back. How is that not "revenge justice"?

It is more like; "You hurt an innocent soul, thus, you deserve the same treatment."



What's that about ... "Someone kills your loved one and you say "come and kill me as well". That makes no sense and christians do not hold to such idea. We must put our faith in the law of the land to mete out justice on our behalf.

"But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

That is where i get the idea. "Do not resist an evil person" does not sound right to me. This is the Book you refer to. Is there another verse or part that explains it?

Although the "eye for an eye" justice was first found in the Old Testament we have no indication that the law of “an eye for an eye” was followed literally..there is never a biblical account of an Israelite being maimed as a result of this law. Also, before this particular law was given, God had already established a judicial system to hear cases and determine penalties a system that would be unnecessary if God had intended a literal “eye for an eye” penalty. Although capital crimes were repaid with execution in ancient Israel, on the basis of multiple witnesses most other crimes were repaid with payment in goods.... Like if you injured a man’s hand so that he could not work, you compensated that man for his lost wages.

Then, it is not all about forgiving and turning the other cheek. Apparently, there is a punishment for every crime. The difference, as far as i can see, the punishment includes a payment. I guess, it is easier for the rich at courts. By the way, a compansation is an option for all crimes in islam as well.

In giving this “new” command, Yeshua is not nullifying the Old Testament law Rather, He is separating the responsibility of the government (to punish evildoers justly) from the responsibility we all have on a personal level before God to love our enemies. We should not seek retribution for personal slights. We are to ignore personal insults... Etc.


I hope you understand that, also in islam, it is the responsibility of the government (to punish evildoers justly). But, since the victim is not government, it is not up to government to choose between "eye for an eye" and forgiving with or without a payment. "Eye for an eye" principle is there to protect the rights of the victim. I see that you don't agree with this part. That is ok and no need to discuss further. We agree to disagree.



Personally we must strive to forgive those who have wronged us. Weather or not we may feel the punishment fits the crime. We have faith that God repays all according to His divine justice ...

I agree with this part but if you don't have the right to demand a punishment which is equal to the crime, you won't be doing something good to be rewarded, because you have no option. It is virtuous to forgive when you have the option to retaliate.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Mezeren, maybe if you see in context the teaching of Yeshua you will see the point I am trying, ...though obviously poorly... To explain is that on a personal level we should always meet hatred and injustice with love and forgiveness. The Old Testament "eye for an eye" law had often been abused even by the Pharisees and rather being used for its original purpose as guidance for equitable justice had often spiralled into acts of vengeance. Yeshua through His teaching restored the original purpose of the Law.

Turning the other cheek has another meaning, about insults. If I remember it is to do with slapping a person in insult is to slap with right hand (left was not used) which would usually be a backhanded slap. It is like an insult, and how not to escalate such a situation by responding in kind. So better to forgive.. Of course there are punishments for crimes.. Which are decided through courts etc.


Matthew 5

Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount

5 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him,2 and he began to teach them.

The Beatitudes
He said:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce
31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths
33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Peace to you
 

Peter_502

Junior Member
Dear Peter, it is not a contradiction when we apply context of time. :) we see it as contradiction by today's scientific knowledge of ruminants animals that chew the cud. What is chew the cud? To chew the cud we accept as to eat, then regurgitate and re digest (I'm not sure if regurgitate is like absolutely the correct term) but we know that food is digested more than once in the case of ruminants in different stomach compartments (four I believe) so does the rabbit and hare regurgitate and digest again? Yes it does.

So to describe rabbits chewing the cud is not incorrect. Simply stated, it is not reasonable to accuse a 3500-year-old document of error because it does not adhere to a modern man-made classification system. Consider what rabbits do. They engage in an activity called cecotrophy. Rabbits normally produce two kinds of feces, the more common hard feces as well as softer fecal pellets called cecotropes. Cecotropes are small pellets of partially digested food that are passed through the animal but are then reingested. As part of the normal digestive process, some partially digested food is concentrated in the cecum where it undergoes a degree of fermentation to form these cecotropes. They are then covered in mucin and passed through the anus. The rabbit ingests the cecotropes, which serve as a very important source of nutrition for the animal.

Is this the same as cud? In the final analysis, it is. Cud-chewing completes the digestion of partially digested food. The Hebrew word translated “chew” is the word ‘alah. With any attempt to translate one language to another, it is understood that there is often more than one meaning for a given word. A cursory glance at any Hebrew lexicon reveals that ‘alah can mean go up, ascend, climb, go up into, out of a place, depart, rise up, cause to ascend, bring up from, among others. Here it carries the implication of moving something from one place to another. So the phrase translated to English as “chew the cud” literally means something on the order of “eats that which is brought forth again.”

Also, most reference material on rabbit digestion says that the cecotrope pellet is swallowed whole and found intact in the rabbit stomach. However, experts have observed that rabbits keep the cecotrophe in the mouth for a time before swallowing. So even though the mucin membrane covering the cecotrope is not broken, the rabbit is able to knead it in its mouth before swallowing, possibly to enhance the process of redigestion.

So is the Bible in error here? No it is not. Rabbits re-ingest partially digested foods, as do modern ruminants. They just do so without the aid of multiple stomach compartments.
Hi Cariad,
Thanks for the response. If I am not mistaken, it is copied and pasted from Answers in Genesis. No problem at all with using them as a source, but it's good I think to cite your sources.
Their response has been addressed by a Muslim friend of mine on his blog. I will paste his response, along with the link to his blog and the sources he provides.

A third example of a false zoological statement can be found in Leviticus 11:6:
“The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.”

The phrase “chews the cud” refers to the phenomenon of rumination among certain animals. Rumination is defined as:

“…a complex digestion characterized by a stomach having three or four parts. […] After some time the partially digested food (cud) is assembled into pellets in the reticulum ready for regurgitation. The regurgitated cud is chewed thoroughly before passing to the omasum and abomasum where normal digestion occurs.”[49]

The problem with Leviticus 11:6 is that rabbits are not ruminants, since they do not “chew the cud”. In fact, rabbits are more accurately referred to as “monogastric herbivores”.[50] Furthermore, according to Cheeke and Dierenfeld:

“Very small (e.g. rabbits) and very large (e.g. elephants) herbivores are mainly non-ruminant herbivores.”[51]

Some Christians have attempted to explain this error by referring to the phenomenon of “caecotrophy” in rabbits. For example, the website “Answers in Genesis” makes the following claim:

“They engage in an activity called cecotrophy. Rabbits normally produce two kinds of feces, the more common hard feces as well as softer fecal pellets called cecotropes. Cecotropes are small pellets of partially digested food that are passed through the animal but are then reingested. As part of the normal digestive process, some partially digested food is concentrated in the cecum where it undergoes a degree of fermentation to form these cecotropes. They are then covered in mucin and passed through the anus. The rabbit ingests the cecotropes, which serve as a very important source of nutrition for the animal.”[52]

The argument is that even though rabbits are not like other ruminants, they can still be considered to be a type of ruminant. In fact, the website states that the Bible was using a different classification system and it would not be fair to expect it to use modern systems:

“Simply stated, it is not reasonable to accuse a 3500-year-old document of error because it does not adhere to a modern man-made classification system.”

But there are a few problems with this line of reasoning. First, if the phenomenon of caecotrophy was considered by the Bible to be a subclass of rumination, then we should expect the Bible to be consistent in this regard. However, we find the exact opposite. If the phenomenon of caecotrophy in rabbits was the reason that the Bible included them among animals that “chew the cud”, then rats should also be included in this list, since they also perform caecotrophy. According to Gordon Dryden:

“Several small hindgut fermenting herbivores (e.g. rabbits and hares, rats and mice, voles and the ring-tailed possum) harvest the nutrients produced by hindgut microbial metabolism through 'caecotrophy' or 'coprophagy'...”[53]

Yet, the Bible separates rats from those that "chew the cud":

“‘Of the animals that move along the ground, these are unclean for you: the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon.’”[54]

So clearly, the claim that the Bible was using some other "classification" system is patently false. The author simply did not know that rabbits do not chew the cud. It is possible that he had observed rabbits eating caecotrophs and assumed that they were regurgitating their food when in reality, there was no regurgitation involved.

Another reason why caecotrophy cannot be considered a type of rumination is that while ruminants actually thoroughly “chew the cud”, animals such as rabbits do not chew the caecotrophs, but instead swallow them whole.[55] Furthermore, Mayer and Donnelly note that caecotrophs need to be swallowed whole in order to provide a protective mucous covering.[56] Hence, the Biblical classification of rabbits as ruminants is scientifically unacceptable.

http://quranandbible.blogspot.ca/2014/03/science-in-bible-and-quran.html

God always knows best. :)
This we definitely agree on. :)

Such "errors" have no baring on the central Gospel message. You are looking to the Bible when your eyes should be upon God, Yeshua showed God to us. If you wish to persuade yourself that translation issues or scribal errors etc mean the the Bible has been corrupted then that is fine and your prerogative to do so. Don't be attracted to Islam because it's believed there are no errors or contradictions in it, because are some. I have read the Qur'an and I see some plain contradictions. Muslims then tell me I simply do not understand the meaning because I am not seeing it in context, well that's ok, maybe that is so. But...then that same rule must be applied to the Bible. So such arguments do not interest me. I need to see the difference between the central message of the Bible compared to the Qur'an. That is big problem for me as the message is totally different. It's a simple thing for me God IS love, where is the greatest love shown to me from God. I know I am saved. We all have a road to travel in life and if God wants you to be a muslim then it will be so. :)

God bless and keep you.
This error and others like it may be trivial, but they are relevant since if the Bible was written was by God, it should not contain mistakes that are attributed to Him. If you are aware of such mistakes in the Quran, please feel free to share. There are some verses and hadiths I have some questions on, and posted them on this forum.

I also like the message of the Gospel, and the idea that God loved us so much to come down and die for our sins was something I believed for years and I still want very much to be true. I agree that such a God is more loving than one who did not make that sacrifice... yet the question remains whether this is truly what God did or what we want to believe He did.
I agree with the teachings of Jesus on love for one's enemies, and I prefer it to what Islam teaches about enemies- not that people can be attacked for no reason or that killing children is ok (Islam does not teach either of these things) but that sometimes killing, if in self-defence, is ok. Christianity teaches unapologetic and radical pacifism... while I no longer believe Jesus is God, I still hold to this and believe it is the way to take that is most pleasing to God.
However, one could also argue that God like in Islam who does not allow killing of civilians is more merciful than the Biblical God who told Moses to kill little kids.

In the end, I think it boils down not to who we want God to be, but to who He is. And I am still searching and praying that He shows me the truth about who He is.

God bless you and keep you also.
 

Peter_502

Junior Member
Alaykum Salam Peter,

There is no difference in the verse for married or single.

“Flog each of them, the adulterer and the adulteress, hundred stripes. If you believe in Allah and in the Last Day, don’t be tender to them when you perform the order of Allah. Let a party of the believers testify with their own eyes this punishment.” (An-Noor/ The Light 24:2)
Peace be upon you also, my friend. The Quran prescribes the same punishment for adulterers.
Yet Muhammad said differently:

Narrated 'Ubadah bin As-Samit:
"The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: 'Take from me. For Allah has a way made for them : For the married person who commits adultery with a married person is one hundred lashes, then stoning. And for the virgin who commits adultery with a virgin is one hundred lashes and banishment for a year."

حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا هُشَيْمٌ، عَنْ مَنْصُورِ بْنِ زَاذَانَ، عَنِ الْحَسَنِ، عَنْ حِطَّانَ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنْ عُبَادَةَ بْنِ الصَّامِتِ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ خُذُوا عَنِّي فَقَدْ جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلاً الثَّيِّبُ بِالثَّيِّبِ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ ثُمَّ الرَّجْمُ وَالْبِكْرُ بِالْبِكْرِ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ وَنَفْىُ سَنَةٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ ‏.‏ وَالْعَمَلُ عَلَى هَذَا عِنْدَ بَعْضِ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ مِنْ أَصْحَابِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِنْهُمْ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ وَأُبَىُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مَسْعُودٍ وَغَيْرُهُمْ قَالُوا الثَّيِّبُ تُجْلَدُ وَتُرْجَمُ ‏.‏ وَإِلَى هَذَا ذَهَبَ بَعْضُ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ وَهُوَ قَوْلُ إِسْحَاقَ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ بَعْضُ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ مِنْ أَصْحَابِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِنْهُمْ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ وَغَيْرُهُمَا الثَّيِّبُ إِنَّمَا عَلَيْهِ الرَّجْمُ وَلاَ يُجْلَدُ ‏.‏ وَقَدْ رُوِيَ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِثْلُ هَذَا فِي غَيْرِ حَدِيثٍ فِي قِصَّةِ مَاعِزٍ وَغَيْرِهِ أَنَّهُ أَمَرَ بِالرَّجْمِ وَلَمْ يَأْمُرْ أَنْ يُجْلَدَ قَبْلَ أَنْ يُرْجَمَ ‏.‏ وَالْعَمَلُ عَلَى هَذَا عِنْدَ بَعْضِ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ وَهُوَ قَوْلُ سُفْيَانَ الثَّوْرِيِّ وَابْنِ الْمُبَارَكِ وَالشَّافِعِيِّ وَأَحْمَدَ ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)
Reference : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1434
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 16
English translation : Vol. 3, Book 15, Hadith 1434
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http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/17/16

http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/17/16

That is an opinion which tries to harmonise hadiths with the verse, i think. You might agree or disagree with this part. But, what we can't do is that while there is a clear verse on the matter, we can not take the narrations to reach a verdict.
Perhaps not, but we can maybe see from them that at times the things that Muhammad did say did not go in accordance with what the Quran says.

OK, i got the link for you. It is in another pdf book which is in English. Chapter 16 is what you need to look up;

http://www.alirizademircan.net/dokuman/Ali_Riza_DEMiRCAN_iNGiLiZCE_cinsel_hayat_1447754412.pdf
[/Quote]

Thanks for the chapter.
If it is illegal to enslave captives, why did Muhammad prescribe the selling of slaves who commit adultery?

Abu Huraira reported that he heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:

When the slave-woman of any of you commits adultery and this (offence of hers) becomes clear, she should be flogged (as the prescribed) punishment, but hurl no reproach at her. If she commits adultery again, she should (again be punished) by flogging, but hurl no reproach upon her. If she commits fornication for the third time and it becomes clear, then he should sell her, even if only for a rope of hair.

وَحَدَّثَنِي عِيسَى بْنُ حَمَّادٍ الْمِصْرِيُّ، أَخْبَرَنَا اللَّيْثُ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَهُ يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ إِذَا زَنَتْ أَمَةُ أَحَدِكُمْ فَتَبَيَّنَ زِنَاهَا فَلْيَجْلِدْهَا الْحَدَّ وَلاَ يُثَرِّبْ عَلَيْهَا ثُمَّ إِنْ زَنَتْ فَلْيَجْلِدْهَا الْحَدَّ وَلاَ يُثَرِّبْ عَلَيْهَا ثُمَّ إِنْ زَنَتِ الثَّالِثَةَ فَتَبَيَّنَ زِنَاهَا فَلْيَبِعْهَا وَلَوْ بِحَبْلٍ مِنْ شَعَرٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Reference : Sahih Muslim 1703 a
In-book reference : Book 29, Hadith 48
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 17, Hadith 4219
(deprecated numbering scheme)
http://sunnah.com/muslim/29/48
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Hi Cariad,
Thanks for the response. If I am not mistaken, it is copied and pasted from Answers in Genesis. No problem at all with using them as a source, but it's good I think to cite your sources.
Their response has been addressed by a Muslim friend of mine on his blog. I will paste his response, along with the link to his blog and the sources he provides.
A third example of a false zoological statement can be found in Leviticus 11:6:
“The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.”

The phrase “chews the cud” refers to the phenomenon of rumination among certain animals. Rumination is defined as:

“…a complex digestion characterized by a stomach having three or four parts. […] After some time the partially digested food (cud) is assembled into pellets in the reticulum ready for regurgitation. The regurgitated cud is chewed thoroughly before passing to the omasum and abomasum where normal digestion occurs.”[49]

The problem with Leviticus 11:6 is that rabbits are not ruminants, since they do not “chew the cud”. In fact, rabbits are more accurately referred to as “monogastric herbivores”.[50] Furthermore, according to Cheeke and Dierenfeld:

“Very small (e.g. rabbits) and very large (e.g. elephants) herbivores are mainly non-ruminant herbivores.”[51]

Some Christians have attempted to explain this error by referring to the phenomenon of “caecotrophy” in rabbits. For example, the website “Answers in Genesis” makes the following claim:

“They engage in an activity called cecotrophy. Rabbits normally produce two kinds of feces, the more common hard feces as well as softer fecal pellets called cecotropes. Cecotropes are small pellets of partially digested food that are passed through the animal but are then reingested. As part of the normal digestive process, some partially digested food is concentrated in the cecum where it undergoes a degree of fermentation to form these cecotropes. They are then covered in mucin and passed through the anus. The rabbit ingests the cecotropes, which serve as a very important source of nutrition for the animal.”[52]

The argument is that even though rabbits are not like other ruminants, they can still be considered to be a type of ruminant. In fact, the website states that the Bible was using a different classification system and it would not be fair to expect it to use modern systems:

“Simply stated, it is not reasonable to accuse a 3500-year-old document of error because it does not adhere to a modern man-made classification system.”

But there are a few problems with this line of reasoning. First, if the phenomenon of caecotrophy was considered by the Bible to be a subclass of rumination, then we should expect the Bible to be consistent in this regard. However, we find the exact opposite. If the phenomenon of caecotrophy in rabbits was the reason that the Bible included them among animals that “chew the cud”, then rats should also be included in this list, since they also perform caecotrophy. According to Gordon Dryden:

“Several small hindgut fermenting herbivores (e.g. rabbits and hares, rats and mice, voles and the ring-tailed possum) harvest the nutrients produced by hindgut microbial metabolism through 'caecotrophy' or 'coprophagy'...”[53]

Yet, the Bible separates rats from those that "chew the cud":

“‘Of the animals that move along the ground, these are unclean for you: the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon.’”[54]

So clearly, the claim that the Bible was using some other "classification" system is patently false. The author simply did not know that rabbits do not chew the cud. It is possible that he had observed rabbits eating caecotrophs and assumed that they were regurgitating their food when in reality, there was no regurgitation involved.

Another reason why caecotrophy cannot be considered a type of rumination is that while ruminants actually thoroughly “chew the cud”, animals such as rabbits do not chew the caecotrophs, but instead swallow them whole.[55] Furthermore, Mayer and Donnelly note that caecotrophs need to be swallowed whole in order to provide a protective mucous covering.[56] Hence, the Biblical classification of rabbits as ruminants is scientifically unacceptable.

http://quranandbible.blogspot.ca/2014/03/science-in-bible-and-quran.html

I don't think it was answering genesis but the original quote may have been repeated from there. A friend gave it to me and it had no source. I never asked because it doesn't concern me over much. I mean such things written nearly 3000 years ago I don't see have much bearing on the central message of the Bible. :) I had a rabbit and it did chew it's droppings which I at the time thought was revolting given the fact I fed him good food. :)

Does the Bible actually base the forbidden foods given in the dietary laws of Leviticus I'd scientific classification? I mean did people of that time even realise much about animal classification. Or is it a case of God deciding what is clean or unclean? I think it's the latter. So it will not shake my faith any.

This we definitely agree on. :)

:)

This error and others like it may be trivial, but they are relevant since if the Bible was written was by God, it should not contain mistakes that are attributed to Him. If you are aware of such mistakes in the Quran, please feel free to share. There are some verses and hadiths I have some questions on, and posted them on this forum.

No, they are not really relevant because the Bible was not written by God as muslims believe the Qur'an to be. It was inspired by God, but it's authors were every inch human. We are told that God reveals His revelations according to mankind's understanding, well, the Bible anyway. As over the 2000+ years it took mankind's understanding evolved quite a bit. So although the authors of the Bible were inspired by God as to what His message was the words used are their own. That's why such "errors" aren't seen as that important, as they would be for example in the Qur'an which claims to be Gods word verbatim, so any errors can only be from God. Yes, I see errors in Qur'an. Buts it's the muslims Holy Book and this is a muslim site whereas they do not mind saying my Holy Book is corrupt I would not say the same of theirs. It would be rude. You can google it I'm sure. But the thing for me I find a worry is why God change His message? After millennia why sent a different message. Why not send the Islam in the beginning with a Arab prophet? Then no problems we all be muslims. Islam appears like a reaction to Judaism and Christianity.

I also like the message of the Gospel, and the idea that God loved us so much to come down and die for our sins was something I believed for years and I still want very much to be true. I agree that such a God is more loving than one who did not make that sacrifice... yet the question remains whether this is truly what God did or what we want to believe He did.

Well, if it not true you must believe Yeshua to be a liar, and the Disciples all chose to die painful deaths for the sake of a lie. Because christianity is built upon the person of Christ. So that is what you must address. When Yeshua said He was the Way, the Truth and the Life did He mean it?

I agree with the teachings of Jesus on love for one's enemies, and I prefer it to what Islam teaches about enemies- not that people can be attacked for no reason or that killing children is ok (Islam does not teach either of these things) but that sometimes killing, if in self-defence, is ok. Christianity teaches unapologetic and radical pacifism... while I no longer believe Jesus is God, I still hold to this and believe it is the way to take that is most pleasing to God.

Yeshua, did not teach we are to be doormats! Where you get the idea we cannot defend ourselves or protect our family? What Yeshua taught that is better for us always to choose forgiveness over vengeance, we must put our trust in the law. On a personal level we must forgive as God forgives, this for ourselves and our spiritual well being. It seems you are a bit choosy the bits you like are good to believe if something (like Old Testament) is harsh you do not like so much. :)

However, one could also argue that God like in Islam who does not allow killing of civilians is more merciful than the Biblical God who told Moses to kill little kids.

Now you are deciding what God should be like! You are measuring Gods mercy like you could understand it. All souls belong to God, God knows the state of that soul, would you say God is unjust to dispense His wrath and justice on whom He pleases? God alone knows what "little kids" may have grown to. I think you are referring to Canaanites Etc.. Who practiced all kinds of debauchery from child sacrifice to their pagan gods and other things worse. It could be a mercy to such children they are spared such a future. God knows how they would have turned out. For me I see such a God who dispenses His wrath and Justice on the deserving and whom I know is ultimately merciful and above all loving... As the ONLY God worthy of worship. YHWH puts importance on His His divine Holiness allah does not as much. At least it's how it appears to me comparing the two scriptures.

In the end, I think it boils down not to who we want God to be, but to who He is. And I am still searching and praying that He shows me the truth about who He is.

Yes I agree. There is only ONE God worthy of worship, this God is a constant force for good in our world. He is a knowable God and He wishes communion with us His creation. I believe Yeshua showed a small part of that God to me, and I believe one day at Gods will I will know in full what I now know in part. You must find your own way :) I wish you well on your journey.

God bless you and keep you also.

And also to you. :)
 

cabdixakim

Junior Member
Greetings, @Peter_502

All praise is due to Allah The Most Wise The All-Knowing, none is guided except whom He guides...

firstly, good luck on your newly found quest and may Allah guide you every step of the way.

secondly, while in this quest of knowing more about Islam, I advice you to think more of the core beliefs of Islam like the exiatence of God as He reveals Himself in the Qur'an, the exiatence of life after death,of Hell and paradise and the continuation of God's message which has been perfected and finalised by prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) ? Once you believe in this then you have no option but to be a muslim right away because then you must think " I believe in the existence of a God and Hellfire for those who do not believe in Him... If I die now while still have not declared that I believe in Him because I was not satisfied with whether an adulterer is stonned or lashed, where will be my ending after my death?"... so make your quest about the core beliefs of Islam and worry about other matters later.

Thirdly, you are a critical thinker(that has brought you here) you must know that you will never cover all about Islam issue after issue, neither by research on the internet nor from books you read ,so you must take yourself to the field with what every little thing (of great importance) that you have already worked on.

fourthly, while learning about Islam, be very careful of whom you take information from... nowadays many people will direct you to different links in which many people(who have hardly memorised not more than one or two hadiths) will speak about the authenticity and deficiency of hadiths in seemingly great details... so be warned and do not be the student of the internet(although there is lots of good in it)! And be very warned of those who dissociate themselves from the Mainstream muslims(not that they can never be right but be keen on what you take from them and verify it more)

Please know that what you need now is faith/belief not how much rulings are there in Islam and listing the ones you disagree with... worry of things that really concern you now ;about God and His existence as He revealed Himself... you need not to engage in a debate about the fate of an adulterer,not that you should not know it but it's so insignificant to your quest now( I wonder why a starter is immediately directed to it; it is as, if the correct ruling is stonning it's from God and if it is lashes then it's not from God and or vice versa)...
 

Peter_502

Junior Member
I don't think it was answering genesis but the original quote may have been repeated from there. A friend gave it to me and it had no source. I never asked because it doesn't concern me over much. I mean such things written nearly 3000 years ago I don't see have much bearing on the central message of the Bible. :) I had a rabbit and it did chew it's droppings which I at the time thought was revolting given the fact I fed him good food. :)
It may have looked that way, but he wasn't actually chewing on it.

As English naturalist R M Lockley, author of the excellent book "The Private Life of the Rabbit", demonstrates on page 105 that rabbits DO NOT chew these pellets.AiG is wrong again. I repeat, rabbits DO NOT chew their cud!

...each soft pellet is separate and by the time it reaches the rectum is enveloped in a strong membrane ...these soft pellets pass down to the rectum in glossy clusters. They are swallowed whole by the rabbit, that is, without breaking the enveloping membranes. ...although the rabbit sometimes appears to chew this faecal "cud" after collecting it from the anus, with movements of the jaws, ... Griffiths and Davies assert that the soft pellets are found whole in the stomach and therefore must be swallowed whole. [my emphasis]

http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/aig_rabbits_cud.htm

Does the Bible actually base the forbidden foods given in the dietary laws of Leviticus I'd scientific classification? I mean did people of that time even realise much about animal classification. Or is it a case of God deciding what is clean or unclean? I think it's the latter. So it will not shake my faith any.
God is certainly within His rights to decide whether an animal is clean or unclean for eating. However, when He (or someone claiming to be quoting Him) gives misinformation, it makes me doubt the source.

:)
No, they are not really relevant because the Bible was not written by God as muslims believe the Qur'an to be. It was inspired by God, but it's authors were every inch human. We are told that God reveals His revelations according to mankind's understanding, well, the Bible anyway. As over the 2000+ years it took mankind's understanding evolved quite a bit. So although the authors of the Bible were inspired by God as to what His message was the words used are their own. That's why such "errors" aren't seen as that important, as they would be for example in the Qur'an which claims to be Gods word verbatim, so any errors can only be from God. Yes, I see errors in Qur'an. Buts it's the muslims Holy Book and this is a muslim site whereas they do not mind saying my Holy Book is corrupt I would not say the same of theirs. It would be rude. You can google it I'm sure. But the thing for me I find a worry is why God change His message? After millennia why sent a different message. Why not send the Islam in the beginning with a Arab prophet? Then no problems we all be muslims. Islam appears like a reaction to Judaism and Christianity.
That is a big distinction. The Bible does not claim to have been dictated by Gabriel, from God, to any of its writers. That is what the Quran claims for itself.
According to Muslims, all the previous prophets taught Islam, so Muhammad only repeated the message.

Well, if it not true you must believe Yeshua to be a liar, and the Disciples all chose to die painful deaths for the sake of a lie. Because christianity is built upon the person of Christ. So that is what you must address. When Yeshua said He was the Way, the Truth and the Life did He mean it?
Great questions. I don't know whether Jesus honestly thought he was God, or whether the Gospels have quoted him accurately. This would help in a major part determine whether he was lying or misguided or simply misquoted.
Early Christians definitely were persecuted for their faith. So were the early Sikhs. So were early Muslims before Muhammad and his followers emigrated. Does that make their faiths all true?

Yeshua, did not teach we are to be doormats! Where you get the idea we cannot defend ourselves or protect our family? What Yeshua taught that is better for us always to choose forgiveness over vengeance, we must put our trust in the law. On a personal level we must forgive as God forgives, this for ourselves and our spiritual well being. It seems you are a bit choosy the bits you like are good to believe if something (like Old Testament) is harsh you do not like so much. :)
If the Gospels are the correct rendering of what Jesus said, we are not allowed to use violence against our enemies. As a Christian, I was a pacifist, and I still am. Being non-violent does not mean letting evil take place. Look at MLK or Gandhi or Romero. I volunteered as an activist in the West Bank with Christian Peacemaker Teams and International Solidarity Movement. Though we saw a lot of violence take place, and I was worked over with a metal pipe 6 years ago by some Israeli settlers and have inhaled lots and lots of teargas over some summers, I never used violence or hated my enemies. We managed to document many human rights violations and helped prevent a village of some 400 people from being destroyed with bulldozers. We did not use violence to achieve these things.
When I believed the Bible to be entirely true, I accepted both the Old Testament and the New Testament without reservation and questioned nothing in either of the collections.

Now you are deciding what God should be like! You are measuring Gods mercy like you could understand it. All souls belong to God, God knows the state of that soul, would you say God is unjust to dispense His wrath and justice on whom He pleases? God alone knows what "little kids" may have grown to. I think you are referring to Canaanites Etc.. Who practiced all kinds of debauchery from child sacrifice to their pagan gods and other things worse. It could be a mercy to such children they are spared such a future. God knows how they would have turned out. For me I see such a God who dispenses His wrath and Justice on the deserving and whom I know is ultimately merciful and above all loving... As the ONLY God worthy of worship. YHWH puts importance on His His divine Holiness allah does not as much. At least it's how it appears to me comparing the two scriptures.
I am not at all trying to judge God. If the Bible is correct, He did order genocide and died on the cross for our sins. If Islam is correct, He did neither. If I come to believe that either of them is true I will accept everything in them.

Yes I agree. There is only ONE God worthy of worship, this God is a constant force for good in our world. He is a knowable God and He wishes communion with us His creation. I believe Yeshua showed a small part of that God to me, and I believe one day at Gods will I will know in full what I now know in part. You must find your own way :) I wish you well on your journey.
Many thanks to you, Cariad. God bless you. :)
 

Peter_502

Junior Member
Greetings, @Peter_502

All praise is due to Allah The Most Wise The All-Knowing, none is guided except whom He guides...

firstly, good luck on your newly found quest and may Allah guide you every step of the way.

secondly, while in this quest of knowing more about Islam, I advice you to think more of the core beliefs of Islam like the exiatence of God as He reveals Himself in the Qur'an, the exiatence of life after death,of Hell and paradise and the continuation of God's message which has been perfected and finalised by prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) ? Once you believe in this then you have no option but to be a muslim right away because then you must think " I believe in the existence of a God and Hellfire for those who do not believe in Him... If I die now while still have not declared that I believe in Him because I was not satisfied with whether an adulterer is stonned or lashed, where will be my ending after my death?"... so make your quest about the core beliefs of Islam and worry about other matters later.

Thirdly, you are a critical thinker(that has brought you here) you must know that you will never cover all about Islam issue after issue, neither by research on the internet nor from books you read ,so you must take yourself to the field with what every little thing (of great importance) that you have already worked on.

fourthly, while learning about Islam, be very careful of whom you take information from... nowadays many people will direct you to different links in which many people(who have hardly memorised not more than one or two hadiths) will speak about the authenticity and deficiency of hadiths in seemingly great details... so be warned and do not be the student of the internet(although there is lots of good in it)! And be very warned of those who dissociate themselves from the Mainstream muslims(not that they can never be right but be keen on what you take from them and verify it more)

Please know that what you need now is faith/belief not how much rulings are there in Islam and listing the ones you disagree with... worry of things that really concern you now ;about God and His existence as He revealed Himself... you need not to engage in a debate about the fate of an adulterer,not that you should not know it but it's so insignificant to your quest now( I wonder why a starter is immediately directed to it; it is as, if the correct ruling is stonning it's from God and if it is lashes then it's not from God and or vice versa)...
Salaam alaikum, my friend. Thanks for the reply. I will read it and respond before the next 7 days, inshAllah.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
It may have looked that way, but he wasn't actually chewing on it.

As English naturalist R M Lockley, author of the excellent book "The Private Life of the Rabbit", demonstrates on page 105 that rabbits DO NOT chew these pellets.AiG is wrong again. I repeat, rabbits DO NOT chew their cud!

...each soft pellet is separate and by the time it reaches the rectum is enveloped in a strong membrane ...these soft pellets pass down to the rectum in glossy clusters. They are swallowed whole by the rabbit, that is, without breaking the enveloping membranes. ...although the rabbit sometimes appears to chew this faecal "cud" after collecting it from the anus, with movements of the jaws, ... Griffiths and Davies assert that the soft pellets are found whole in the stomach and therefore must be swallowed whole. [my emphasis]

http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/aig_rabbits_cud.htm


God is certainly within His rights to decide whether an animal is clean or unclean for eating. However, when He (or someone claiming to be quoting Him) gives misinformation, it makes me doubt the source.

Ok, but I never doubt God, and who is to say it is misinformation given the knowledge of the time.

That is a big distinction. The Bible does not claim to have been dictated by Gabriel, from God, to any of its writers. That is what the Quran claims for itself.
According to Muslims, all the previous prophets taught Islam, so Muhammad only repeated the message.

Yes, I know what Quran claim. That's is why it is not easy to make comparisons between the Bible and Quran when it comes to things like Errors and contradictions. I agree that according to muslims all previous prophets taught Islam, but looking at what the Bible prophets taught we know that not to be so. The prophet of Islam did not bring the same message. It's a choice that we accept the new different message or stay with what God originally sent. I need the "new message" to seem at least seem logical.

Great questions. I don't know whether Jesus honestly thought he was God, or whether the Gospels have quoted him accurately. This would help in a major part determine whether he was lying or misguided or simply misquoted.
Early Christians definitely were persecuted for their faith. So were the early Sikhs. So were early Muslims before Muhammad and his followers emigrated. Does that make their faiths all true?

Well, again that is personal choice. :) what I know is the Bible and Quran both say Yeshua was without sin. We have no reason to assume that the gospels did not quote Yeshua correctly. For the whole message consistent in all four Gospels to be false by incorrectly recording the accounts of Yeshuas teachings, to the extent of a new different message being sent, is too big a leap in the dark. No proof either to support such a position. It cannot make all their faiths true, but it shows the strength of their belief in its truth. Who would die for a lie?


If the Gospels are the correct rendering of what Jesus said, we are not allowed to use violence against our enemies. As a Christian, I was a pacifist, and I still am. Being non-violent does not mean letting evil take place. Look at MLK or Gandhi or Romero. I volunteered as an activist in the West Bank with Christian Peacemaker Teams and International Solidarity Movement. Though we saw a lot of violence take place, and I was worked over with a metal pipe 6 years ago by some Israeli settlers and have inhaled lots and lots of teargas over some summers, I never used violence or hated my enemies. We managed to document many human rights violations and helped prevent a village of some 400 people from being destroyed with bulldozers. We did not use violence to achieve these things.
When I believed the Bible to be entirely true, I accepted both the Old Testament and the New Testament without reservation and questioned nothing in either of the collections.

Then you were a good christian because you saw that returning violence is not the way. Forgiving your enemies may seem a hard thing to do but ultimately is more rewarding. You can stand up for what is right and champion the cause of the oppressed without having to resort to violence. This may result in harm to your person, but this life is transitory and its pains temporary.
What you did, sounds very brave and I applaud your courage.

I am not at all trying to judge God. If the Bible is correct, He did order genocide and died on the cross for our sins. If Islam is correct, He did neither. If I come to believe that either of them is true I will accept everything in them.

I think you know where your heart lies. :) your difficulty is maybe giving up on the Christ. What you say here... This would help in a major part determine whether he was lying or misguided or simply misquoted. I think you are almost there... I don't mean that to offend you at all but if you question the integrity of Yeshua even indirectly in tiny part then it becomes easier to give Him up.


Many thanks to you, Cariad. God bless you. :)

Take care and God bless you Peter. Be sure God will guide you where he will.
 
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