Ibn Khaldun on evolution.

islamdonlyway

Junior Member
:salam2: brothers and sisters, inshallah everyone's Ramadan is going good.

I came across a video of a 'imaam' who is also a senior lecturer at a British university. In his brief talk he claims that evolution did perhaps take place millions of years ago, and he also references to Ibn Khaldun who is regarded as one of the giant Muslim thinkers in history. Thus, it propelled me to do some research on Ibn Khaldun in regards to evolution. I started reading about him and his work on the wikipedia page, and by surprise came onto this passage that he wrote on one of his book :

''One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word "connection" with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the next group.
The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.''

Ibn Khaldun on Evolution. ref: The Muqaddimah.

Obviesly, islam refutes evolution so how can such a statement be written by a respected muslim. I would like to hear your responses inshallah. Jzakallah.
 

MeGladder

Junior Member
:salam2:

I have read this before. So, I was not surprised. :-]

Islam does not refute evolution. If the heavens and earth were created in 6 long periods instead of a mere flash of a second, evolution (gradual development) must have occurred. Islam also does not deny the evolution of species. But according to traditional Scholars of Islam, humans did not originate from ape-like animals. Adam ('Alayhi As-Salaam) was created differently by Allah (SWT). But this does not mean that Human beings can not evolve.
 

Townie

Junior Member
I of course make no comment about the creation of man, but can there really be any doubt that the creatures around us have evolved due to the process of natural selection?
What happens slowly and gradually in nature due to changing conditions, can also happen quickly, look at the development of so many breeds of dog through the process of human selection.
Evolution isn't a guess; it's reality.
 

islamdonlyway

Junior Member
jazakallah brother itqan ullah for shareing your links. Brother Usamah hassan has apologised and asked allah for forgiveness, inshallah allah will forgive him and guide him ameen. Besides this, i was soo surprised to read Ibn Khaldun's book and the mentioning of evolution. His regarded as one of the great muslim thinkers and his written about evolution before Darwin (originator of the theory). In addition, being a muslim it adds to the surprise....
 

Itqan Ullah

Time is Running!!
Wai yyakum. Brother, Ibn Khaldun (as far as I have read today) was just a historian not a scholar of Aqidah. As for theory of evolution before darwin, the idea of species evolving wasn't invented by darwin, it goes back to ancient greek philosphy, http://www.iep.utm.edu/evolutio/


I of course make no comment about the creation of man, but can there really be any doubt that the creatures around us have evolved due to the process of natural selection?
What happens slowly and gradually in nature due to changing conditions, can also happen quickly, look at the development of so many breeds of dog through the process of human selection.
Evolution isn't a guess; it's reality.

Hello :), what we were talking about here was human evolving from apes as for "evolution" itself I'll Quote Sheikh Ayman bin Khalid:

It is a very wrong approach to address a concept that is vague by its content.

The first step is to identify the actual content [i.e. what does one mean with evolution] should be defined then examined and eventually judged.

If theory of evolution means Darwinism (i.e. humans share humans share common ancestry with apes and that the mental and moral faculties of humanity have the same types of natural causes as other inherited traits in animals) then this is not only Kufr but also ridiculous.

If theory of evolution means species have evolved over centuries and developed i.e. its appearance and genetic nature changed due to external factors then this is fine because this is proven by science and stated in Quran and Sunnah.

If theory of evolution means species change from one kind to another then this is just a theory that cannot be proven. And at the same time Muslims should not believe in it because:

1- It is not something that a Muslim should bother himself with.

2- Speaking with no knowledge is condemned in religion

3- It is a useless topic to laypeople.

Wallahu A'lam

There is a big time difference between the "theory of evolution" and evolution. The former is a ridicilous theory suggesting humans were apes then
 

Townie

Junior Member
The statement that the theory of evolution "...is a ridiculous theory suggesting humans were apes" sort of misses the point, in the way that Darwin's audience pilloried him over a century ago.
The theory, whether one accepts it or not, is that men and apes descend from a common ancestor.
I suppose you have no choice but to disbelieve this as it casts doubt on the veracity of the Quran. I think this is unfortunate, as the evidence for the theory being the truth is so great that anyone who is not obliged to disbelieve it would find it very hard not to accept it.
Please watch this short video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oweUN-GaN3M
Watch it with an open mind and I would very much like to know what you think about it.
 

kashif_nazeer

~~~Alhamdulillah~~~
:salam2:

As for the above video...
In the Book 'Science and Human Origins', Casey Luskin replies to this in chapter "Francis Collins, Junk DNA, and Chromosomal Fusion"

"...[T]he evidence for chromosomal fusion isn't nearly as clear-cut as evolutionists like [Kenneth] Miller claim.

Telomeric DNA at the ends of our chromosomes normally consists of thousands of repeats of the 6-base-pair sequence TTAGGG. But the alleged fusion point in human chromosome 2 contains far less telomeric DNA than it should if two chromosome were fused end-to-end: As evolutionary biologist Daniel Fairbanks admits, the location only has 158 repeats, and only "44 are perfect copies" of the sequence.46

Additionally, a paper in Genome Research found that the alleged telomeric sequences we do have are "degenerated significantly" and "highly diverged from the prototypic telomeric repeats." The paper is surprised at this finding, because the fusion event supposedly happened recently -- much too recent for such dramatic divergence of sequence. Thus the paper asks: "If the fusion occurred within the telomeric repeat arrays less than ∼6 mya [million years ago], why are the arrays at the fusion site so degenerate?"47 The conclusion is this: If two chromosomes were fused end-to-end in humans, then a huge amount of alleged telomeric DNA is missing or garbled.

Finally, the presence of telomeric DNA within a mammalian chromosome isn't highly unusual, and does not necessarily indicate some ancient point of fusion of two chromosomes. Evolutionary biologist Richard Sternberg points out that interstitial telomeric sequences (ITSs) are commonly found throughout mammalian genomes, but the telomeric sequences within human chromosome 2 are cherry-picked by evolutionists and cited as evidence for a fusion event."


 

Townie

Junior Member
Casey Luskin is a lawyer (and not a scientist, although he seems to be a little confused about what such credentials do or don't mean) and one of the primary spokespeople for the Discovery Institute. Mr. Luskin obtained a Bachelor of Science and a Masters Degree in Earth Sciences from the University of California, San Diego, and has as a lawyer published “Intelligent Design Will Survive Kitzmiller v. Dover”, and “Alternative Viewpoints about Biological Origins as Taught in Public Schools” (published in the Journal of Church and State). His work illustrates well the actual goal of the Discovery Institute – to get religion, in the form of intelligent design creationism, into public school curricula (not to do any actual scientific research).

Luskin is by far most notorious for his ability to distort scientific evidence to suggest conclusions completely opposite to what the evidence suggests (and curiously always to fit his preconceived notions of what it ought to show).
 

Itqan Ullah

Time is Running!!
1. If you are copying your whole post from -Here- without providing the reference to site (or author) & verifying it credibility, proves you are biased towards your opinion. Questioning someones academics based on some random sites isn't a big deal. Here lemme do the same for you:

The first thing we need to note about this vignette is that it is from Ken Miller, one of the most biased evolutionists in academia. Miller has shown in various cases that he cannot be trusted to interpret the data fairly, and here is no exception. A few years ago Miller tried to make a case for evolution based on the protein Pencillinase, but it was an utter failure.
-R. Sungenis

Some more stuff here: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/07/ken_millers_random_and_undirec002331.html

2. Your post does not refute his argument.

3. Since I am a maths side student and I believe you too aren't a biology professor who has researched this issue from scratch it's pretty much pointless to debate on this subject. We are forbidden to delibrately provide inaccurate information (=lying) & speaking without knowledge. So, what I can suggest you to do is since you are interested in learning about Islam you can leave aside this topic and study others, if you deem them to be truth then automatically you can assume this to be truth aswell without having to do a lifetime of research on this issue. :)

Thank you for you response anyways, and I apologize if anything I said seem rude or hurtful to you. May Allah (swt) guide you to truth.
 

islamdonlyway

Junior Member
jzakallah khair brothers for the responses. I guess we slightly moved away from the topic, as the main theme was of Ibn Khaldun's opinion on evolution. Besides, as a muslim i do not believe in evolution from ape to man. Yes evolution does occur on a cellular level but not from species. But as brother 'townie' claimed in his post that the 'Evidence is overwhelming' this definetly sets a massive challenge to creationists. The scariest thing of all is that evolution is being taught in school's as if it's a fact and when you watch most scientific documentaries the scientists on them always refer to evolution as if its a fact.

But ofcourse this does not mean its a fact, but rather it has set a challenge to us creationist to challenge them and dismantle their theory.
 

Townie

Junior Member
We arrive at Absolute Truth only when we are able to divest ourselves of all the baggage that we accrete when we live our imperfect lives.
It is reassuring to think that people who lived before us were lucky enough to receive messages from heaven that told us how to live and behave. But what if they didn't? Would that change the way you live and behave? Would that mean you felt able to rape and pillage your way around your community?
Of course not. People who do that in our society are stoned to death (if you happen to live in a stone age society), or locked away, if you happen to live in an advanced society.
Unfortunately there is no way to dismantle the theory of evolution, because it is true. Start by understanding what the Theory in the Theory of Gravity and the Theory in the Theory of Evolution actually means.
 

Perseveranze

Junior Member
Asalaamu Alaikum,

The claim that Ibn Khaldan is talking about evolution as we know it today is actually false, and usually comes from the mouth of someone who hasn't read the original arabic or understands the full context.

What you're talking about is a misrepresentation of what he meant, he wasn't talking about evolution in the sense that you understand it. Read the following from people who have read the original arabic and understand the context;

Ibn Khaldun was not talking about evolution but the old greek philosophical idea of an order to creation, and this can be shown by his viewpoint placing angels above men and his placing of dark skinned races below light skinned ones in the same way the greeks did.

However even this idea of an order of creation is incorrect according to Islam as it goes directly against the Islamic teaching of peoples race not having any effect upon their deen, that black and white, arab and non arab is equal and the only thing which differentiates us is our piety and good deeds.

Ibn Khaldun was merely placing things in a series of steps to show what he thought were superior or inferior creations and not describing one becoming the other, as by placing the angels above men was he really saying men evolve into angels? A part of his theories that is ignored or left out by evolutionists when referring to him.

Its quite a desperate bit of lying on the part of evolutionists and 'muslims' who support this godless philosophy to try to claim ibn Khaldun as one of their own over this and can be easy disproved but then the evolutionists and those who put their aql before naql share a similar trait of twisting the evidence to support their twisted views and claiming any proof to counter the fact they usually go against the Quran and sunnah.

4) However, the passage from Ibn Khaldun’s Muqaddima, from the section ‘the Meaning of Prophecy’, seems to describe a succession of stages in superiority of one creation to another, without at all implying a physical evolution of one form to the next. His usage of the word ufuq (literally: ‘horizon,’ in some contexts ‘side/edge of the celestial sphere,’ translated (incorrectly?) in the passage as “stage”) is more suggestive of ‘the theory of celestial spheres and emanation’ floating around at that time, and seems to be an extension of that. Medieval philosophers would often discuss prophecy in the context of emanation, again another indication that ibn Khaldun is not talking about evolution.

People who keep saying that Ibn Khaldun meant "ape evolved to man" are just slandering him. May Allah(swt) clear their misunderstandings and forgive them.
 

MeGladder

Junior Member
Asalaamu Alaikum,
Its quite a desperate bit of lying on the part of evolutionists and 'muslims' who support this godless philosophy to try to claim ibn Khaldun as one of their own over this and can be easy disproved but then the evolutionists and those who put their aql before naql share a similar trait of twisting the evidence to support their twisted views and claiming any proof to counter the fact they usually go against the Quran and sunnah. .

.

السلام عليكم

It can be easily refuted as even the theory of evolution does not say humans evolved from monkeys. But it's a bit rude to include Muslims who support evolution in the inverted commas. This (the claim that Ibn Khaldun supports evolution of human) could well stem from their misunderstanding.
 

Perseveranze

Junior Member
السلام عليكم

It can be easily refuted as even the theory of evolution does not say humans evolved from monkeys. But it's a bit rude to include Muslims who support evolution in the inverted commas. This (the claim that Ibn Khaldun supports evolution of human) could well stem from their misunderstanding.

Walaikum Asalaam,

But people try to use what they see as an "implication" to what he meant. They like to use the vagueness to believe he's referring to evolution (whether monkey or not, the "evolved" part is the issue here).

But more importantly, we should clear his name from the falsehood that's been attributed to him, which is that Humans evolved from a sub-human creature. - Something which he never said.

I believe it was Atheists who first made the claim (his book is famous in the west), then some Muslims (usually Qur'anists/modernists) jumped on the bandwagon.
 
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