Is Jesus God?

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
"And the book shall be given to one that knows no letters, and it shall be said to him: Read!: and he shall answer: I know no letters." (Isaiah 29:12 - Bible)





'A'isha, Umm al-Mu'minin, may Allah be pleased with her, said, "The beginning of the revelation to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, took the form of the true dream. Whenever he had this kind of dream, it was clear like the break of day [and was true]. Then he was made to love retreat and used to go into retreat in the cave of Hira' where he would devote himself to the worship of Allah alone, continuing in this worship for a number of nights until he felt inclined to return to his family. He would take provision for his stay. Then he would return to Khadija to restock with provision to do the same again. This lasted until the Truth came to him while he was in the cave of Hira'.

The angel came to him and said,
'Read!' He said, 'I cannot read.'"

The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "He seized me and squeezed me until all the strength went out of me and then released me and said, 'Read !' I said, 'I cannot read.' Then he seized me and squeezed me a second time until all the strength when out of me and then released me. Then he seized me and squeezed me a third time and then released me, and then he said, 'Recite: In the Name of your Lord who created, created man from a blood clot. Recite: And your Lord is the Most Generous.'"

[She went on,] "Then the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace,returned with that and his heart was quaking. He came to Khadija bint Khuwaylid, may Allah be pleased with her, and said, 'Wrap me up! Wrap me up!' They wrapped him up until the state of terror had left him and then he told Khadija what had happened and said, 'I am afraid for myself.' Khadija said, 'No, by Allah, Allah would never bring disgrace upon you. You maintain ties of kinship, bear people's burdens, help the destitute, give hospitality to your guests and help those who have been afflicted by calamities.'

"Khadija then went with him to Waraqa ibn Nawfal ibn Asad ibn 'Abdu'l-'Uzza, Khadija's cousin, who had become Christian during the Jahiliyya. He could write in Hebrew and wrote in Hebrew as much of the Gospel as Allah willed. He was an old man who had gone blind. Khadija said to him, 'Cousin! Listen to your nephew.' Waraqa said to him, 'Nephew, what have you seen?' The Messenger of Alla, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, told him what he had seen. Waraqa said to him, 'This is the Namus [Jibril] which Allah sent to Musa. I wish that I were still young. I wish I might still be alive when your people drive you out!' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, asked, 'Will they drive me out?' He said, 'Yes, no man has brought anything similar to what you have brought without being treated with hostility. If I am still alive on that day, I will give you my strong support.' Shortly after that, Waraqa died and there was a pause in the revelation."
(Sahih al-Bukhari)


Tell me what do you think about the above verse of Bible and the Narration of Aishah (radiyallahu 'anha) in Sahihul Bukhari?

Note that Prophet (pbuh) met Waraqah just one time in life and that was just for few moments.

May Allah open your heart towards the truth.
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
:salam2:

Here is a verse talking about that.

JazakAllahu Khayran, akhi. (May Allah reward you with good).

If you wish me to leave, I will do so willingly.

We don't want you to leave. Some of us just might be getting a tad bit frustrated that you're not getting what we're saying exactly. But we know this'll take time, and we're ready to be patient and do our best. We also are human, after all.

"And the book shall be given to one that knows no letters, and it shall be said to him: Read!: and he shall answer: I know no letters." (Isaiah 29:12 - Bible)

SubhanAllah, I never knew this was in the Bible. How can they not see the truth? Original bits of the real message still exist in those books, but people choose not to see them and believe in the distortions instead.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Too much effort is given to the one who is not interested in embracing Islam but looking at ways to sew discord & debate a already lost point.

Reminds me of the Ape pusher Scotty.

No, you are avoiding me because you can't answer my questions and logical facts. You forced me to accept your version of truth, while you provided no logical explanation. How could I accept something that makes no sense? After failed to convince me, you accused me of bias, without realizing that you were being bias yourself.
Also, translation is not version. Many muslims have explained it but you are still blind and insist about your wrong fact. Sorry to say that you can't twist anything here. Muslims are not stupid and always check and recheck everything.
I can see that you have so little will to learn about Islam. I don't see any reasons why I must continue this debate with you. I will let other muslim, who hopefully more patient, to take care of the likes of you from now. I hope Allah can give His guide to you someday

Asalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

My respected brother and sister in Islam. May Allah forgive me if I offend you. I'll request you both to be nice. If this thread is too much for you, please ignore it. Your "assumptions", "doubts", "sarcasm" and "harshness" doesn't suit the general atmosphere at TTI. Not to mention, this isn't what your deen teaches you. You can only doubt or act upon it, when you have solid proof. Otherwise my brother and sister, they only fool themselves "if" they try to fool us. Us here are getting all the reward for representing the deen of Allah. That's why a Muslim is here. Please be nice or walk out.

Let your brothers and sisters gather all the reward they intend to get by this thread without contaminating their efforts by turning this thread into something other the "peaceful debate it is".
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
You are very wrong again. Please do not talk about things which you do not have any proof. This might be new to you, but Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was an illiterate who cannot read nor write.

"And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted." (Surah al-'Ankaboot, Verse 48)

How can he have access to any book when he was an illiterate? It was another miracle Allah given to him.

I did not say Muhammad (pbuh) had a Bible in Aramaic, nor in Hebrew or Greek. He did not have ANY Bible with him. Everything in Quran was the revelation to him from the Almighty Allah.

I am well aware that Muhammad was illiterate. Just because he was unable to read does not mean he did not have access to the scriptures...he was surrounded my faithful companions who could read for him. If you believe he did not know the scriptures, can you please respond to these Suras:

Surat Al-Baqarah (2) - Muhsin Khan said:
Verse 4 - And who believe in (the Quran and the Sunnah) which has been sent down (revealed) to you (Muhammad Peace be upon him ) and in [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.] which were sent down before you and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter. (Resurrection, recompense of their good and bad deeds, Paradise and Hell, etc.).

Verse 136 - Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)."

Verse 285 - The Messenger (Muhammad SAW) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say, "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers" - and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)."
Surat 'Āli `Imrān (3) - Muhsin Khan said:
Verse 84 - Muhsin Khan
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)] and what was given to Musa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam)."

Verse 119 - Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures [i.e. you believe in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), while they disbelieve in your Book, the Quran]. And when they meet you, they say, "We believe". But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say: "Perish in your rage. Certainly, Allah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets)."
Surat An-Nisā' (4) - Muhsin Khan said:
Verse 136 - O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and the Book (the Quran) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him), and whosoever disbelieves in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away.
Surat Al-Mā'idah (5) - Muhsin Khan said:
Verse 59 - Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are Fasiqun [rebellious and disobedient (to Allah)]?"
Surat Al-Qaşaş (28) - Muhsin Khan said:
Verse 47 - And if (We had) not (sent you to the people of Makkah) in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they should have said: "Our Lord! Why did You not send us a Messenger? We should then have followed Your Ayat (Verses of the Quran) and should have been among the believers."

Verse 48 - But when the truth (i.e. Muhammad SAW with his Message) has come to them from Us, they say: "Why is he not given the like of what was given to Musa (Moses)? Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Musa (Moses) of old? They say: "Two kinds of magic [the Taurat (Torah) and the Quran] each helping the other!" And they say: "Verily! In both we are disbelievers."

Verse 49 - Say (to them, O Muhammad SAW): "Then bring a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than these two [the Taurat (Torah) and the Quran], that I may follow it, if you are truthful."

Verse 50 - But if they answer you not (i.e. do not believe in your doctrine of Islamic Monotheism, nor follow you), then know that they only follow their own lusts. And who is more astray than one who follows his own lusts, without guidance from Allah? Verily! Allah guides not the people who are Zalimun (wrong-doers, disobedient to Allah, and polytheists).

Verse 51 - And indeed now We have conveyed the Word (this Quran in which is the news of everything to them), in order that they may remember (or receive admonition).

Verse 52 - Those to whom We gave the Scripture [i.e. the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.] before it, - they believe in it (the Quran).

Verse 53 - And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe in it. Verily, it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed even before it we have been from those who submit themselves to Allah in Islam as Muslims (like 'Abdullah bin Salam and Salman Al-Farisi, etc.).

Verse 54 - These will be given their reward twice over, because they are patient, and repel evil with good, and spend (in charity) out of what We have provided them.
Surat Al-`Ankabūt (29) - Muhsin Khan said:
Verse 46 - And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."

Verse 47 - Muhsin Khan
And thus We have sent down the Book (i.e this Quran) to you (O Muhammad SAW), and those whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) aforetime] believe therein as also do some of these (who are present with you now like 'Abdullah bin Salam) and none but the disbelievers reject Our Ayat [(proofs, signs, verses, lessons, etc., and deny Our Oneness of Lordship and Our Oneness of worship and Our Oneness of Our Names and Qualities: i.e. Islamic Monotheism)].

It is clear to me that You accuse the Bible of corruption in two ways, first that the scriptures of old were not well preserved and corrupted in the times before Jesus (the Old Testament). And you also believe there is corruption in the translations of our modern Bibles from the Greek and Hebrew.

The first point (Old Testament, or Torah) can be dispelled by the Qur'an, as I've shown above, Allah told Muhammad that it was a trustworthy source. Keep in mind the preservation of the word between Muhammad's time and present day is extrodinary.

The New Testament is also mentioned in the Qur'an as being trustworth, so its only a questions of canon & proper translation...which are both things which I agree are good debatable topics.

But you have provided no evidance for the corruption of the message itself.

"And the book shall be given to one that knows no letters, and it shall be said to him: Read!: and he shall answer: I know no letters." (Isaiah 29:12 - Bible)

When you quote the Bible, can you please tell me which version you're using, I have been trying to use the RSV since that is the one Dr. Zakir Naik says is the most reliable in the 1st video posted in this thread.

I answered this question on page 1, but I guess it was insufficient?

Iprofessshirk said:
Concerning Isaiah 29:12:
If you add in verse 11 and read the whole passage in context; it is not a direct prophecy, just simple truth.
Please keep Biblical references in context, and I will give the Koran the same respect.

So, I'll go into more detail...Lets look at the whole passage for clarity:

Isaiah 29:9-16 RSV said:
Stupefy yourselves and be in a stupor,
blind yourselves and be blind!
Be drunk, but not with wine;
stagger, but not with strong drink!
10 For the Lord has poured out upon you
a spirit of deep sleep,
and has closed your eyes, the prophets,
and covered your heads, the seers.

11 And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” 12 And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.”

13 And the Lord said:
“Because this people draw near with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
while their hearts are far from me,
and their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote;
14 therefore, behold, I will again
do marvelous things with this people,
wonderful and marvelous;
and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hid.”

15 Woe to those who hide deep from the Lord their counsel,
whose deeds are in the dark,
and who say, “Who sees us? Who knows us?”
16 You turn things upside down!
Shall the potter be regarded as the clay;
that the thing made should say of its maker,
“He did not make me”;
or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?

God is giving a prophecy about the senseless hypocracy of the Jews and in the middle interrupts the prophecy with a simple analogy of how the Jews have the answers right in front of them, but they are too stubborn and senseless to find the answers. Those words themselves are only prophetic of the attitude of the Jews, it has nothing to do with a future prophet.

Which bible do you believe to be the true one ? I mean from those:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

The left column...more here:
http://carm.org/what-canon
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
:salam2:



JazakAllahu Khayran, akhi. (May Allah reward you with good).



We don't want you to leave. Some of us just might be getting a tad bit frustrated that you're not getting what we're saying exactly. But we know this'll take time, and we're ready to be patient and do our best. We also are human, after all.



Well, we believe that none of the prophets wrote anything by themselves. The author of all the revealed Books is the One True God, Creator of the Entire Universe, and all of Creation. He is the one who wrote these books (be it the Torah, Psalms, Injeel or Quran). The Angel Gabriel (Jibreel in Arabic) descended to Earth and inspired normal human men of this message and *they* in turn spread the word to their communities.

So Jesus didn't technically write the Injeel. He was inspired by God with these words. That's why we call them divine revelations.

And yes, you understand that correctly. All the Prophets had messages, and all of them (except Muhammad's Quran (peace be upon him)) have been lost, edited, added to etc.

For example, Prophet Abraham had a Holy Book. It was lost long long ago. Prophet David had a Book, the Psalms (called Zaboor in Arabic), some of which was lost. Prophet Moses was given the Torah, again which suffered a similar fate, and the Injeel, given to Jesus, was lost in part as well. All of these books were either lost, some of their words were edited and some people dared to edit God's words and add in their own.

A long line of books sent with a long line of Messengers, sent again and again and again. The same message, the same rules and guidelines - to believe in only One God, to worship Him alone. to be good to kin and neighbours, to respect parents, to help the needy and destitute. to obey His commandments. Again and again and again throughout history ever since the first man. To guide humankind, to get them out from darkness into the light. Each time, some people believed in the Message, and some disbelieved. And each time, the message became distorted after a while. The Original Word of God didn't exist anymore, each time the pattern continued. After a long line of Prophets, the Final Prophet was Muhammad (blessings upn him). He was inspired with the Quran, which confirmed all the messages and all the Prophets who came before him. And it was said in the Quran that this would be the last and final message, to last till the end of time. There would be no more Prophets, and this time, the true message would not be distored, because Allah/God Himself would protect it.

This is all in the Quran, or in the collection of Prophetic Sayings which are the second source of Islam. And so that's how it is. Islam isn't a new message. It's the same thing which was given to each Prophet. Why do you think all religions hold some common factors? Because they were all the same thing in their original form.

About Jesus, God says that he also was just a normal human being, and helped with several miracles just like all the Prophets were. God doesn't have a wife, so how can He have a son? And this is really blasphemy to say such things. Imagine the enormity of the Universe and the Created world and all living creatures living within in. God is All-Mighty, able to do anything. He is beyond human comprehension, and is capable of anything. He doesn't need to manifest Himself anywhere... but he communicated with these divine messages. It's the biggest blasphemy at all that people made up this thing that God has a son.

Take a look at the Quran, and it contains a challenge to those who read it - find one flaw within it. No one can do that. There are scientific explanations of things in there which no one would dream to know 1400 years ago, let alone an illiterate man living an isolated life in the desert. Things like the Big Bang, the Big Crunch, black holes, how a fetus develops in the womb, pulsars, oceans, clouds, the solar system's orbits, etc etc.



SubhanAllah, I never knew this was in the Bible. How can they not see the truth? Original bits of the real message still exist in those books, but people choose not to see them and believe in the distortions instead.

Please check my last post ;)

But concerning your statements about a long line of prophets, and one almighty God. If God is all powerful, why would He allow the original messege to become corrupt? Why not preserve it, as Muhammad claims, so that there isn't any ambiguity?
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
I'd like you all to consider something for a moment, try to clear your head of your presuppositions and your beliefs.

Imagine for a moment if Satan were to send a messenger to rally people against God. How do you think he would do it? Do you think he would be forthcoming and clear about his intentions? Or would he attempt to decieve those who heard his message, and make them think that he was the good guy?

1 John 4 - RSV said:
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God; for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his own Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because he first loved us. 20 If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
:
Please check my last post ;)

But concerning your statements about a long line of prophets, and one almighty God. If God is all powerful, why would He allow the original messege to become corrupt? Why not preserve it, as Muhammad claims, so that there isn't any ambiguity?

Because each message was intended for one community only. The Taurah was for the Children of Israel, and when they started disobeying clearly sent down verses, Allah decided to leave them in their condition and to stop His blessings from them. The Children of Israel are guilty of murdering Prophets - Zachariah and John the Baptist, and trying to crucify Jesus, peace be upon them all. Allah withdrew his Blessings, and then waited for another community to rise up and try again.

Allah alone knows His own reason. Who am I to try and deduce why He decided to do something. We don't conjecture with these things - its beyond our limited human thinking and capability to understand. Plus, this world is a test. Human beings were created either for Hellfire or Paradise. Allah could've just placed us all where He knew we would go anyway, but then the People of the Fire would say that was unfair. So Allah sent all of us down to Earth first to be tested, so that we can prove to ourselves that whatever we did here in our short life was done to our choosing, and when the Final Judgement takes place, nobody can say they didn't get a fair chance.

Again, Muhammad :)saw2:) never claimed any of this - and he certainly had no Bible with him. There were only pagans living in Makkah at that time. There was a Christian monk who was a relative of his wife Khadijah (may Allah be pleased with her), but he used to write the Gospel in Hebrew, and nobody knew Hebrew at that time. Like my brother stated above, the Prophet only met with him a few moments of his life, and the monk died soon after. Are you saying that so Muhammad :)saw2:) just copied the Bible which he had? Well, he certainly did a marvellous feat then. If he wrote it himself, how come it had all those scientific explanations not dreamt about back then? Or are you saying predicting the Big Bang when nobody had any inkling of how the universe must have started was a cakewalk? And so why did he choose to not say Jesus was the son of God?

I want to ask you this - there still exist some Christians who believe Jesus was just a messenger, not a divine person. This sect has always existed from back then. How did they ever come to this idea if the Bible always said Jesus was the son of God? Maybe the Bible said something else back then, when it was the original Injeel, and those people still remember the true message before it was corrupted.

One of the proofs that the Bible is not all truthful and the Quran is can be verified by looking at where they found the Ark of Noah. The Bible claimed one mountain, and the Quran claimed mount Judi. Well, excavations have found it on Mount Judi.

[video=youtube;rIzyxDr3j44]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIzyxDr3j44[/video]

I'd like you all to consider something for a moment, try to clear your head of your presuppositions and your beliefs.

Imagine for a moment if Satan were to send a messenger to rally people against God. How do you think he would do it? Do you think he would be forthcoming and clear about his intentions? Or would he attempt to decieve those who heard his message, and make them think that he was the good guy?

Don't worry, it'll happen soon enough. I hope I'm not there at the time because we've been told its going to be the biggest trial the Earth has ever faced since the time of Adam up until the Day of Judgement. When the AntiChrist/ Dajjal appears, he will rule the Earth for 40 days - the first day will be as long as a year, the second day as long as a month, the third day as long as a week, and after that the rest will be normal days. He will have Good and Bad with him, but what appears to be good will actually be bad, and what will be bad will actually be good for the true believers. He will try and make people believe he is God, and many will follow him in hordes. But then Jesus (peace be upon him) will descend to finish his time on Earth (he never faced death, and the Quran says every soul shall taste death.) He will be the only one who will kill the AntiChrist, and after that he will break the cross and claim he is just a messenger and every one will be required to follow Islam.

We don't need to clear our heads and think how it will be. We've been told of it all in detail. When will he come? When the sea of Galilee dries up. Guess what? That sea's water level is currently below the danger point, since Israel has been facing a drought for 7+ years.

http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/whoisdajjal.htm
This is more of an exploration article where people are wondering if this current world system might be setting the stage for Dajjal or not: http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/invasion.htm

And going back to your comment, You're saying Islam is the AntiChrist's agenda and Prophet Muhammad is the Dajjal. Tell that to the thousands of converts accepting Islam every year, who have found the most peace they ever had in their lives. You're saying praying five times a day, fasting, giving charity is all an agenda. Well, I quite like that agenda. When I wasn't following this religion correctly, I never had this peace of mind and a trust that I'm living my life to the best. But now I do. And so do millions of others.

I would like to make a humble request to you: Empty your mind of all presumptions and whatever you know, and pray sincerely to the One God of the Universe - be frank with Him. Tell him you've believed in Jesus and the Bible all your life, but now something has brought Islam in your radar. Tell Him you don't know what to believe and to just Guide you and open your mind and heart to the Truth. Just do that. That doesn't mean you're praying for Islam. Just the truth. See what happens after that.
 

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
I am well aware that Muhammad was illiterate. Just because he was unable to read does not mean he did not have access to the scriptures...he was surrounded my faithful companions who could read for him. If you believe he did not know the scriptures, can you please respond to these Suras:

Well done! You have chosen some excellent proofs to prove what we are conveying. All the verses speak about the Muslims' belief in the previous books revealed by Allah. That is exactly the truth that we believe in all the books sent to the world by Almighty Allah. According to Authentic Hadith, we know that there were not less than 313 Rasools sent by Allah to guide men. We believe in all of them as a whole. Moreover, we believe in the books revealed to David, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them all) in special. However, our belief is different than yours. When we believe in Quran, we are believing in all the revelation of Allah, as all the other books are Mansookh after its revelation. We believe that the Originals was sent by the Almighty Allah, and men corrupted all of them except Quran. Please ponder over these two verses.

“Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, “This is from Allaah,” to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby” (Surah al-Baqarah, Verse Number 79)

The above verse clearly says that the books were corrupted. Also:

"We have without doubt, sent down the message (Qur'an) and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption.)" (Surah al-Hijr, Verse Number 9)


It is clear to me that You accuse the Bible of corruption in two ways, first that the scriptures of old were not well preserved and corrupted in the times before Jesus (the Old Testament). And you also believe there is corruption in the translations of our modern Bibles from the Greek and Hebrew.

The first point (Old Testament, or Torah) can be dispelled by the Qur'an, as I've shown above, Allah told Muhammad that it was a trustworthy source. Keep in mind the preservation of the word between Muhammad's time and present day is extrodinary.

The New Testament is also mentioned in the Qur'an as being trustworth, so its only a questions of canon & proper translation...which are both things which I agree are good debatable topics.

But you have provided no evidance for the corruption of the message itself.

Where did Allah say to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that the Old and New Testament are trustworthy sources?

We believe there are corruption in all the Bibles you have today. Have you ever read a Bible in Aramaic? That is the language of Jesus (pbuh), not Hebrew or Greek. You are still thinking we believe that your Bible translations are corrupted and that is wrong again. We believe that all the Versions of Bible you have today is corrupted, NOT just the translations. Common be a bit logical. Stop copy pasting what you see on internet about Islam. We know there is a huge database agaisnt Islam on internet, filled with wrong information about Islam.


When you quote the Bible, can you please tell me which version you're using, I have been trying to use the RSV since that is the one Dr. Zakir Naik says is the most reliable in the 1st video posted in this thread.

I answered this question on page 1, but I guess it was insufficient?

I am using the KJV. Its a Version, NOT just a translation by the way. :) So you may find MANY differences between RSV and it. Here is that verse as in RSV.

And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.” (Isaiah 29:12)

Now can you comment on that? How come Hadith and the Bible say exactly the same thing? How did it happened as said in the Bible? Please stop copy pasting what you see on internet.
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
Again, Muhammad :)saw2:) never claimed any of this - and he certainly had no Bible with him. There were only pagans living in Makkah at that time.......

<snip>

...And going back to your comment, You're saying Islam is the AntiChrist's agenda and Prophet Muhammad is the Dajjal. Tell that to the thousands of converts accepting Islam every year, who have found the most peace they ever had in their lives. You're saying praying five times a day, fasting, giving charity is all an agenda. Well, I quite like that agenda. When I wasn't following this religion correctly, I never had this peace of mind and a trust that I'm living my life to the best. But now I do. And so do millions of others.

I would like to make a humble request to you: Empty your mind of all presumptions and whatever you know, and pray sincerely to the One God of the Universe - be frank with Him. Tell him you've believed in Jesus and the Bible all your life, but now something has brought Islam in your radar. Tell Him you don't know what to believe and to just Guide you and open your mind and heart to the Truth. Just do that. That doesn't mean you're praying for Islam. Just the truth. See what happens after that.

Muhammad and the Qur'an does claim this as I posted above....please see more here. This stuff isn't anything knew, many well known Muslim scholars would agree:
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/beck/quran_on_bible.html

I'm also quite versed in Islamic & Christan eschatology...but better we save that for another discussion.
I do pray to God for these things regularly :)

Came across this almost by accident, except there is no accident:

10 Reasons why Jesus Isn't God. http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31511

I would request 'Profess' to kindly go through the entire thread, especially brother justoneofmillion's and sister ShyHijabi's posts.

I got through most of it, but I'm out of time for now....I'll check out the rest later, thanks for the link.

Well done! You have chosen some excellent proofs to prove what we are conveying. All the verses speak about the Muslims' belief in the previous books revealed by Allah. That is exactly the truth that we believe in all the books sent to the world by Almighty Allah. According to Authentic Hadith, we know that there were not less than 313 Rasools sent by Allah to guide men. We believe in all of them as a whole. Moreover, we believe in the books revealed to David, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them all) in special. However, our belief is different than yours. When we believe in Quran, we are believing in all the revelation of Allah, as all the other books are Mansookh after its revelation....

<snip>

....Where did Allah say to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that the Old and New Testament are trustworthy sources?

Ummmm....all of the Sura's I just posted, maybe you missed them <confused>

We believe there are corruption in all the Bibles you have today. Have you ever read a Bible in Aramaic? That is the language of Jesus (pbuh), not Hebrew or Greek. You are still thinking we believe that your Bible translations are corrupted and that is wrong again. We believe that all the Versions of Bible you have today is corrupted, NOT just the translations. Common be a bit logical. Stop copy pasting what you see on internet about Islam. We know there is a huge database agaisnt Islam on internet, filled with wrong information about Islam.

So, why do you believe it's corrupted? Today's translations of the Bible are based on manuscripts of the Old Testament and New Testament that are at least two centuries older than the Qur'an. If the Bible was corrupted, it must have been done before that time.

The only thing I've been copy/pasting are quotes from the Bible and Qur'an...if I'm getting info from other sources, I'll let you know. For instance, here is a list of Muslim scholars who accept that the Bible in its current form is uncorrupt:

Two great historians, Al-Mas'udi (died 956) and Ibn-Khaldun (died 1406), held the authenticity of the Gospel text.
Four well-known theologians agreed with this: Ali at-Tabari (died 855), Qasim al-Khasani (died 860), 'Amr al-Ghakhiz (died 869) and, last but not least, the famous Al-Ghazzali (died 1111).
Their view is shared by Abu Ali Husain Ibn Sina, who is known in the West as Avicenna (died 1037). Bukhari (died 870), who acquired a great name by his collection of early traditions, quoted the Qur'an itself (Sura 3:72,78) to prove that the text of the Bible was not falsified.
Finally, Muhammad Abduh Sayyid Ahmad Khan, a religious and social reformer of modem times (died 1905)

please read more here: -junk-
It is a very compelling article in my opinion.


I am using the KJV. Its a Version, NOT just a translation by the way. :) So you may find MANY differences between RSV and it. Here is that verse as in RSV.

And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.” (Isaiah 29:12)

Now can you comment on that? How come Hadith and the Bible say exactly the same thing? How did it happened as said in the Bible? Please stop copy pasting what you see on internet.

I already comment in length about how you are taking this verse out of context....what about my reply didn't you understand?
(Thanks for letting me know what version you're quoting :))
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
:salam2:

I was searching for an article I read many years ago, about how some things Jesus (peace upon him) taught, the Christians don't follow as much as the muslims do. I couldn't find the article, but I found a much much more detailed video which gives it all in detail.

I would like not just Profess, but the rest of us here to watch it as well. I usually don't have time to watch these lengthy lectures, but this was more than worth it. Dr Brown presents all the evidence, after this, I leave it up to Allah to guide whom He will, InshaAllah.

[video=youtube;tMLjtbYJAZE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMLjtbYJAZE[/video]
 

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
Ummmm....all of the Sura's I just posted, maybe you missed them <confused>

I have read them all, but sadly I do not see anywhere it mentions that Old and New Testament are TRUSTWORTHY sources.



So, why do you believe it's corrupted? Today's translations of the Bible are based on manuscripts of the Old Testament and New Testament that are at least two centuries older than the Qur'an. If the Bible was corrupted, it must have been done before that time.

When the Quran was revealed, the Bible was already corrupted my dear. That is why Allah revealed His final Testament which is the Noble Quran. We believe in Original Torah revealed to Moses (pbuh) and Original Injeel revealed to Jesus (pbuh). The Original Injeel was not in Hebrew or Greek but was in Aramaic as that is the language of Jesus (pbuh). Still not clear?

For instance, here is a list of Muslim scholars who accept that the Bible in its current form is uncorrupt:

Where did those scholars say that they believe the current Bible is not corrupted?


I already comment in length about how you are taking this verse out of context....what about my reply didn't you understand?

Where is your comment on that? Can you show that to me?
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
Muhammad and the Qur'an does claim this as I posted above....please see more here. This stuff isn't anything knew, many well known Muslim scholars would agree:
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/beck/quran_on_bible.html



please read more here: -junk-
It is a very compelling article in my opinion.

I went and looked around the answering-islam website, and one look at the section on women and Muhammad has me disgusted. This is one of those sites which portrays Islam in a bad light (and the internet is full of those). Kindly do not get your info from there... no wonder you're ending up confused. There are very little websites to get good Islamic info from - islamqa.com is one of them. And the original Quran and Sunnah is the best source.

EDIT: Here is a list of all the FAKE islamic websites. I would copy the list here, but its a huge list.

http://islamtreasure.wordpress.com/2011/11/13/fake-anti-islamic-websitesbeware/

Again, like brother IbnAdam said, please stop referring to info you find online. We don't study Islam online, we study it from true authentic sources, namely Quran and Hadith.
 

sabs1164

AmatuLLaH
As-salaamu alaikum
Peace be upon you..

Thought of sharing these beautiful words of ALLAH ( Exalted is HE)

HE says: "Those whom WE have given the book (the jews and the christians) rejoice at what has been revealed to you (O Muhammad(p.b.u.H), while there are some from the groups who reject a part of it. Say,"I have been commanded to worship ALLAH and not to ascribe partners to HIM. To HIM do i call (worship) and to HIM will i return (after death)."
Surah Ra'ad verse 36.

Verse 37 says: "Thus WE revealed it (the Qur'an) as a special Arabic command. Surely if you follow their wishes after knowledge (of the Oneness of ALLAH) has come to you, you shall have no helper nor saviour (defender) against ALLAAH."

Verse 41 says: "Do they not see that We have been reducing the land (that they control) from its borders. ALLAAH commands (HIS creation) and there is none to avert HIS command. HE is swift in reckoning."

Verse 43: " The disbelievers say, "You are not a Messenger." Say,"ALLAAH is sufficient as witness between us, and so are those who possess the knowledge of the Book."


ALLAHU AKBAR.
MAY ALLAH keep us on the straight path. Aameen.

Was-salaamu alaikum
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
:salam2:

I was searching for an article I read many years ago, about how some things Jesus (peace upon him) taught, the Christians don't follow as much as the muslims do. I couldn't find the article, but I found a much much more detailed video which gives it all in detail.

I would like not just Profess, but the rest of us here to watch it as well. I usually don't have time to watch these lengthy lectures, but this was more than worth it. Dr Brown presents all the evidence, after this, I leave it up to Allah to guide whom He will, InshaAllah.

[video=youtube;tMLjtbYJAZE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMLjtbYJAZE[/video]

While I appreciate that you're probably sincere in trying to help, this is really an attempt to change the subject. I'm not really interested in a competition of whose religion is morally superior. I'm simply seeking the truth...how you feel about peoples actions has no bearing on the truth.

I have read them all, but sadly I do not see anywhere it mentions that Old and New Testament are TRUSTWORTHY sources.

Lets just review one of the examples for brevity:

Surat An-Nisā' (4) - Muhsin Khan said:
Verse 136 - O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and the Book (the Quran) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him), and whosoever disbelieves in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away.

I am understanding this as saying - Allah says Muslims must belive in the Qur'an, and in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), if you don't then you have "strayed far away"

Do you disagree? How do you understand it?

When the Quran was revealed, the Bible was already corrupted my dear. That is why Allah revealed His final Testament which is the Noble Quran. We believe in Original Torah revealed to Moses (pbuh) and Original Injeel revealed to Jesus (pbuh). The Original Injeel was not in Hebrew or Greek but was in Aramaic as that is the language of Jesus (pbuh). Still not clear?

I have spent several posts above showing how Allah commands you to believe the Bible as it was in Muhammads time.....and that the Bible since that time has not changed. You have not provided any evidance which shows why you belive the Bible was corrupted since Muhammad's time, nor have you refuted the evidance I have shown striaght from the Qur'an showing that the Bible is reliable. You have also not provided any evidance that the original gospel was written in Aramaic....why would you believe this when there is no evidance. The Bible of Muhammad's day was in Greek & Hebrew, just like it is today.

Where did those scholars say that they believe the current Bible is not corrupted?

The article I linked provides references.

Where is your comment on that? Can you show that to me?

Iprofessshirk said:
I answered this question on page 1, but I guess it was insufficient?

Iprofessshirk said:
Concerning Isaiah 29:12:
If you add in verse 11 and read the whole passage in context; it is not a direct prophecy, just simple truth.
Please keep Biblical references in context, and I will give the Koran the same respect.

So, I'll go into more detail...Lets look at the whole passage for clarity:

Isaiah 29:9-16 RSV said:
Stupefy yourselves and be in a stupor,
blind yourselves and be blind!
Be drunk, but not with wine;
stagger, but not with strong drink!
10 For the Lord has poured out upon you
a spirit of deep sleep,
and has closed your eyes, the prophets,
and covered your heads, the seers.

11 And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” 12 And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.”

13 And the Lord said:
“Because this people draw near with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
while their hearts are far from me,
and their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote;
14 therefore, behold, I will again
do marvelous things with this people,
wonderful and marvelous;
and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hid.”

15 Woe to those who hide deep from the Lord their counsel,
whose deeds are in the dark,
and who say, “Who sees us? Who knows us?”
16 You turn things upside down!
Shall the potter be regarded as the clay;
that the thing made should say of its maker,
“He did not make me”;
or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?

God is giving a prophecy about the senseless hypocracy of the Jews and in the middle interrupts the prophecy with a simple analogy of how the Jews have the answers right in front of them, but they are too stubborn and senseless to find the answers. Those words themselves are only prophetic of the attitude of the Jews, it has nothing to do with a future prophet.

Got it?

I went and looked around the answering-islam website, and one look at the section on women and Muhammad has me disgusted. This is one of those sites which portrays Islam in a bad light (and the internet is full of those). Kindly do not get your info from there... no wonder you're ending up confused. There are very little websites to get good Islamic info from - islamqa.com is one of them. And the original Quran and Sunnah is the best source.

EDIT: Here is a list of all the FAKE islamic websites. I would copy the list here, but its a huge list.

http://islamtreasure.wordpress.com/2011/11/13/fake-anti-islamic-websitesbeware/

Again, like brother IbnAdam said, please stop referring to info you find online. We don't study Islam online, we study it from true authentic sources, namely Quran and Hadith.

I provided extensive support for my argument directly from the Qur'an....why no comment on that?

BTW, its not a "fake" Islamic website....its a website dedicated to skeptacism of Islam. But they do seem to have a lot of well researched and viable arguments. I also started my studies directly from the scriptures. But going outside the scriptures is very important...for any religion.

As-salaamu alaikum
Peace be upon you..

Thought of sharing these beautiful words of ALLAH ( Exalted is HE)

HE says: "Those whom WE have given the book (the jews and the christians) rejoice at what has been revealed to you (O Muhammad(p.b.u.H), while there are some from the groups who reject a part of it. Say,"I have been commanded to worship ALLAH and not to ascribe partners to HIM. To HIM do i call (worship) and to HIM will i return (after death)."
Surah Ra'ad verse 36.

Verse 37 says: "Thus WE revealed it (the Qur'an) as a special Arabic command. Surely if you follow their wishes after knowledge (of the Oneness of ALLAH) has come to you, you shall have no helper nor saviour (defender) against ALLAAH."

Verse 41 says: "Do they not see that We have been reducing the land (that they control) from its borders. ALLAAH commands (HIS creation) and there is none to avert HIS command. HE is swift in reckoning."

Verse 43: " The disbelievers say, "You are not a Messenger." Say,"ALLAAH is sufficient as witness between us, and so are those who possess the knowledge of the Book."


ALLAHU AKBAR.
MAY ALLAH keep us on the straight path. Aameen.

Was-salaamu alaikum

The way I am understanding this passage is that the Qur'an is proclaiming its authority as a source of truth. Is that about right?

Point taken, and I was aware of this from the beginning. The thing is, is that I'm skeptical of the authority of the Qur'an, so using this argument is a bit weak at this point in the discussion.
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
:salam2:

You have not given us any evidence whatsoever that the Quran tells us to believe in the Bible during Muhammad's :)saw2:) present time. You just give us the verse saying that believe in the Injeel and the Torah. It doesn't specify a timeframe. It means believe that they were sent down to different prophets with *the Same message*

If true Christianity brought the message of the Oneness of God (Tawheed), and stated that He alone is to be worshipped to the exclusion of anyone else in His creation, whether that is ‘Eesa (Jesus) or anyone else, then how did this religion become mixed with polytheistic beliefs (shirk) and how did they take ‘Eesa (Jesus – peace be upon him) and his mother as gods besides Allaah?.


Praise be to Allaah.

There can be no doubt that the call to believe in Allaah alone (Tawheed) and to worship Him alone to the exclusion of anyone else, is the basic message that was brought by the Prophet of Allaah ‘Eesa (peace be upon him), as it was the basic message brought by all the Prophets. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): ‘Worship Allaah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghoot (all false deities, i.e. do not worship Taghoot besides Allaah).’ Then of them were some whom Allaah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth)”

[al-Nahl 16:36]

“And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): Laa ilaaha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allaah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)”

[al-Anbiya’ 21:25]

‘Eesa will bear witness to this call against his people, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) when Allaah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): 'O ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: “Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allaah?”’ He will say: ‘Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner‑self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only You, are the All‑Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen).

117. ‘Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allaah) did command me to say: “Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord.” And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things’”

[al-Maa'idah 5:117]

With regard to how the followers of this religion deviated after that from pure Tawheed to idolatrous beliefs and the worship of Jesus and his mother besides God, this is something which happened early on in Christian history. We will quote here some evidence to that effect from their own people’s words. Let whoever has ears listen.

It says in the American Encyclopedia:

The belief in the Oneness of God – as a theological movement – began at a very early stage in history, and in fact it preceded the belief in trinity by many decades. Christianity developed from Judaism, and Judaism firmly believes that there is one God.

The path that led from Jerusalem (the home of the first disciples of Christ) to Nicea (where it was decided in 325 CE that Christ was equal to God in essence and eternal nature) can hardly be described as a straight path.

The doctrine of trinity which was affirmed in the fourth century CE bears no resemblance to the original teachings of Christ concerning the nature of God. Au contraire, it is the opposite, a deviation from that teaching. Hence it developed in opposition to the belief in One God… (27/294).

You can refer to the views of some of those Christians who still believe in the Oneness of God in the same American Encyclopedia, 27/300-301

Will Durant says:

When Christianity conquered Rome, the new religion (i.e., Christianity) was infused with the blood of the old idolatrous religion: the title of archbishop, worship for the great mother, and an innumerable number of lords who gave peace of mind and were like who exist in all places and cannot be detected with the senses. All of this came into Christianity as the blood of the mother comes into her child.

The civilized empire handed over power and administration to the papacy and the impact of the word replaced the impact of the sword. The preachers of the church started to assume positions of power.

Christianity did not put an end to idolatry, rather it reinforced it. The Greek mind came back to life in a new form, in the doctrines and rituals of the church. The Greek rituals appeared in the rituals of the monastic saints. From Egypt came the idea of the holy trinity, the day of reckoning, eternal reward and punishment, and man’s eternal life in one of the other. From Egypt also came the worship of the mother and child, the mystical union with God, the union which led to Platonism and agnosticism, and the erasing of Christian doctrine. And from Persia came the belief in the return of the Messiah and his ruling the earth for 1000 years.

Qissat al-Hadaarah, 11/418 (The Story of Civilization)

Despite the element of atheism in the words of Durant, which is something that he is known for, and which is apparent in his claim that the idea of eternal reward or punishment came from the Egyptians, tracing the origins of deviant idolatry in Christianity is no longer a secret, and he is not the only one who has researched them. In his book Christianity and Idolatry, Robertson states that Mithraism, which is a religion of Persian origin, flourished in Persia approximately six centuries before the birth of Christ, and it reached Rome around the year 70 CE, where it spread throughout the Roman lands. Then it reached Britain and spread to a number of British cities. What concerns us here about this religion is that it says:

- That Mithras, after whom it is named, was an intermediary between God and man (for a similar doctrine in Christianity, see Acts 4:12).

- He was born in a cave or in a corner of the earth (cf. Luke 2:8)

- His birthday was December 25 (which is the day celebrated by the Christians as the day when Jesus was born)

- He had twelve disciples (cf. Matthew 10:1)

- He died to save the world (cf. I Corinthians 15:3)

- He was buried but he came back to life (cf. I Corinthians 15:4)

- He ascended to heaven in front of his disciples (cf. Acts 1:9)

- He was called “Saviour” (cf. Titus 2:13)

- Among his attributes is that he is like a peaceful lamb (cf. John 1:29)

- The “Divine supper” was held in his memory every year (cf. I Corinthians 11:23-25)

- One of his symbols was baptism

- Sunday was sacred to them

The French Orientalist Leon Joteh, in his book “An Introduction to Islamic philosophy” is of the view that the origin of the Christian trinity is to be found in Greek philosophy, specifically in the ideas of modern Platonism, which took the basis of the idea of trinity as a view of the Creator of the universe from Plato, then developed it to a great extent, so that the resemblance between this idea and Christianity became greater. So (in their view) the Creator, the One Who is absolutely perfect, appointed two intermediaries between him and mankind, who emanated from Him, and were also part of Him at the same time, meaning that they are contained in His essence. These two entities are reasoning and divine spirit. Then he said:

The marriage of Jewish belief and Greek philosophy did not only produce philosophy, rather it produced a religion too, namely Christianity which imbibed many ideas from the Greeks. The Christian concept of divinity is taken from the same source as modern Platonism. Hence you see many similarities between the two, although they may vary in some details. They are both based on a belief in trinity, in which the three “persons” are one.

This is what the American writer Draper refers to:

Idolatry and polytheism entered Christianity through the influence of the hypocrites who occupied positions of influence and high positions in the Roman state by pretending to be Christians, but they never cared about religion and were not sincere at all. Similarly Constantine had spent his life in darkness and evil, and he did not follow the commands of the church except for a short while at the end of his life. (p. 337)

Although the followers of Christianity gained some power, to the extent that they managed to have Constantine appointed as ruler, they failed to eradicate idolatry completely. As a result of their struggle, their principles became fused with idolatry, from which point there developed a new religion in which Christianity and idolatry were manifested equally.

Thus the Christians followed the same path of those disbelievers who had come before them, step by step, as their own Book testifies. And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the Jews say: ‘Uzayr (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!”

[al-Tawbah 9:30]

And Allaah

You are saying you are wanting to know the truth. Well, the video I posted above from the Deen Show explicitly explains how and why the Bible got corrupted. Even Christian scholars accept that Christians are now following Paul's teachings, which were diametrically opposite to what Jesus (peace be upon him) ever taught.

Tell us, what are you *actually* looking for? Because we have given you explanation after explanation. Hear the logic you are saying: You say the Quran says the Bible is true in present time (ie, Jesus is son of God), while the Quran is saying Jesus is not son of God and its a blasphemy... all of this in the same book.

Verily no one can guide without Allah's guidance. The video I posted above wasn't a change of topic - it was the truth you are seeking. And you decide to turn a blind eye against it. Well we can only tell you what the message is. But if you close your own eyes to the truth, and pretend to not see and not hear, no one can prove anything to you. In the end, we're not being harmed whether you choose to understand or not, nor is God harmed. But your soul is most definitely harmed.

You say you believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) and his teachings. Have you left off eating pork, dressing immodestly, taking bank interest? Do you believe his lord is One, do you pray with your face touching the floor? If not, you are not following Jesus's teachings, nor giving him the proper respect. You don't want to follow Quran, fine, you believe muslims are the antichrist, fine, at least believe in your own book first.
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
:salam2:

You have not given us any evidence whatsoever that the Quran tells us to believe in the Bible during Muhammad's :)saw2:) present time. You just give us the verse saying that believe in the Injeel and the Torah. It doesn't specify a timeframe. It means believe that they were sent down to different prophets with *the Same message*

I find the Sura's I posted quite compelling proofs of what I've claimed. You have not provided any alternate meaning....so I'm a bit confused what you're view is about them. I'm no scholar and I freely admit I may be misinterpretting them, but taken at face value, and given the abundance of them, them do seem pretty compelling to me. You don't have to provide your interpretation, but I was hoping you could.

You are saying you are wanting to know the truth. Well, the video I posted above from the Deen Show explicitly explains how and why the Bible got corrupted. Even Christian scholars accept that Christians are now following Paul's teachings, which were diametrically opposite to what Jesus (peace be upon him) ever taught.

OK, I'll check it out, you lead me to believe it was off topic, but maybe not...sorry.

Tell us, what are you *actually* looking for? Because we have given you explanation after explanation. Hear the logic you are saying: You say the Quran says the Bible is true in present time (ie, Jesus is son of God), while the Quran is saying Jesus is not son of God and its a blasphemy... all of this in the same book.

This :) This exchange of views is what I'm looking for. Miscommunications can be frustrating at times, but please don't mistake those for a negative attitude. I've already learned a lot, mostly about how Muslim's are able to justify their point of view. I can't say that very much has been particularly compelling to me....but there have been quite a few things that do cause me pause. For instance, growing up in the church I had not questioned Jesus praying to God. The way it is taught, it doesn't seem to be a contradiction, but when you think about the doctrine of the trinity, it does make one want a fuller understanding.

Pointing out that the Qur'an has apparent contradictions was my goal as a skeptic. I understand you believe this is impossible since it is the word of Allah, but if it did have comfirmed contradictions, wouldn't that make you question its authority? I'm not saying it does, I'm saying that IF it does, then I would think each of you should be very concerned.....and the fact that there are many substantial (and well researched) claims concerning apparent contradictions would be reason for honest inquiry.

It's the same as with me and my belief in the Bible...there are many reasonible claims about the truth of the Bible's accuracy & authority, and I'm very interested in exploring them as well. And I have explored many of them as well. It's a lifelong journey to try to sort all this stuff out, many people throughout history have dedicated their lives to it, including Christians who've converted to Islam, and vice-versa....and likewise, I'm on my own personal journey. And I really appreciate all of those who are contributing to the discussion here, thank you!

Verily no one can guide without Allah's guidance. The video I posted above wasn't a change of topic - it was the truth you are seeking. And you decide to turn a blind eye against it. Well we can only tell you what the message is. But if you close your own eyes to the truth, and pretend to not see and not hear, no one can prove anything to you. In the end, we're not being harmed whether you choose to understand or not, nor is God harmed. But your soul is most definitely harmed.

Again, I don't mean to turn a blind eye to it....I was simply trying to stay on topic, if you're telling me it was on topic, then it was my mistake. Thanks for posting it, I'll be sure to watch it :)

You say you believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) and his teachings. Have you left off eating pork, dressing immodestly, taking bank interest? Do you believe his lord is One, do you pray with your face touching the floor? If not, you are not following Jesus's teachings, nor giving him the proper respect. You don't want to follow Quran, fine, you believe muslims are the antichrist, fine, at least believe in your own book first.

Pork - no, I love pork, Jesus taught this was fine (see below)
dress - yes, I believe in modest dressing
bank interest - yes, I do not charge interest on loans (kiva.org :))
one Lord - I believe that belief in the Trinity is still monotheism, because the three are one, so yes.
pray with face touching the floor - no, I don't believe Jesus taught this

Matthew 15:10-20
10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” 13 He answered, “Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” 15 But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” 16 And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and so passes on?[c] 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

This doesn't mean we can do whatever we want, this means that if we honestly love God in hearts, we will naturally choose to live in the right ways.

I won't be online for the next ten days or so, I'm heading off on a family vacation. So if you post something, please do not expect an immediate answer. Thanks again to all of you who have contributed...I've really enjoyed learning more about the Muslim viewpoint on these issues.

Peace & Joy,
Iprofessshirk
 

sabs1164

AmatuLLaH
peace..

so what do you think about these verses?
"One came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall i do, that i may have eternal life?
"And Jesus said unto him, WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD? there is NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD...." Matthew 19:16-17

"I can of mine own self DO NOTHING: as i hear, i judge..." John 5:30
This is clear that Jesus is not GOD. How can GOD (so called) say that?

Peace...
 

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
I am understanding this as saying - Allah says Muslims must belive in the Qur'an, and in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), if you don't then you have "strayed far away"

Do you disagree? How do you understand it?

Allah says, “To you We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to you.” (Sûrah al-Mâ’idah, Verse Number 48)

The above verse abrogates any scripture sent before Quran. Therefore even if we agree for the debating sake that Bible was its Original in Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s time, it is not to follow anymore. Rather, Quran is the only book to follow in our time. All the other books were revealed for that time, for that people. But Allah sent Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) not to a particular nation. He is a Universal Messenger.

You say Bible is in its Original in the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

1. Where is your proof?
2. Why are there so many contradictions and unscientific verses in it?
3. How can the Original book revealed to a messenger be in some language that he never understood?


Plus, we must also consider that the New Testament is not the revelation that Allah had sent to him. Indeed, the gospels do not even claim to be the words that were revealed to Christ. They are the writings of others, and they are duly attributed to their authors – Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Moreover, I do not see any sincerity from you that you are trying to learn something. I do not intend to make more replies to the thread unless I must. I leave you on Allah. May Him guide you to the beautiful path of Islam.
 
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