"It is haram to pray behind a Hanafi"

kayleigh

Junior Member
I was having a discussion with a friend and he said a number of blatantly incorrect statements. I obviously have very limited knowledge but I know what he said was wrong. He said:

1. Women cannot go to the mosque for jummah but they can go any other day of the week for any other prayer. (His evidence was that the Hanafi madhab says this - do they really? He was not talking about the hadith that says women get more reward for praying in their homes.)

2. It is obligatory to blindly follow a madhab. You don't need to know the evidence from Qur'an or sunnah because as long as scholars agree, that's good enough. (again, he says Hanafis say this)

3. It is haram to pray behind Hanafis because they don't say "bismillah..." before reciting al Fatiha during prayer and this can make them kafirs though he wouldn't say they were.

4. It is haram to pray with people who are of a different methodology or madhab than you and they shouldn't even enter your mosque. He doesn't mean Sunni/Shia, he means differences in madhabs

5. Salafi is a madhab and you can't be a Sunni unless you're a Salafi

Yeah, it's nuts. I don't like to debate people about things like this because it's way over my head and a waste of time but I would like some proof that he's wrong on at least some of the points. I'm also curious if Hanafis really believe that women shouldn't pray in the mosque on jummah.

and no, I can't explain why he thinks Hanafis might be kafirs, yet he still uses what he claims to be their rulings and opinions on things.
 

Waseem203

Young Muslim
I think my family follows the Hanafi madhab, though I myself do not adhere to a particular school. I have yet to do much research on all of them to decide the strongest points I wan't to pick from each one. But I have never heard that Hanafis have any such ideas. In fact I asked my mom the other day if women should go to Jumuah and she just gave the basic response: they can but it's not fard as it is for men.

Anyway, I hope someone will be able to refute those points. It would be unfortunate if my family were kaffirs :)
 

ahmed_indian

to Allah we belong
:wasalam:,

may Allah help us. all the four schools (hanafi, shafi, hanbali, mailiki) are from ahlus-sunnah wal jamaah. they are all sunnis.

1. its recommended for a woman to pray at home.

2. the scholars of these schools too followed Quran and sunnah. they did not speak of their desires. if we dont know the rulings of fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), instead of following our wishes and taking this frm hanafi and tht frm shafi, we should take wht scholars of a particular school gives us.

3. they say bismillah slowly. not saying bismillah makes one kaafir? :astag:.

4. no, its not haraam.

5. Salafi is not a madhab. they take the rulings of the scholars who seems to be most near to Quran and sunnah.

PS: bro, beware of ppl's attitude that their school is the best and all others are kaafirs or muslims who follow madhab are sinners, etc.
 

Al-Kashmiri

Well-Known Member
Staff member
As-salaamu `alaykum

Very confusing.

1. Women cannot go to the mosque for jummah but they can go any other day of the week for any other prayer. (His evidence was that the Hanafi madhab says this - do they really? He was not talking about the hadith that says women get more reward for praying in their homes.)

I'm not sure exactly what the Hanafis say, although I've noticed over here that they almost totally prohibit women from the masjid. Regardless, we have the following hadeeth which has been used by the scholars to counter this view,

From ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar, who said: "I heard the Messenger of Allaah SAWS (peace be upon him) say: ‘Do not prevent your women from going to the mosque if they ask your permission.’" Bilaal ibn ‘Abdullah said, "By Allaah, we will prevent them." (Ibn ‘Umar) turned to him and told him off in an unprecedented fashion, saying: "I tell you what the Messenger of Allaah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said, and you say ‘By Allaah, we will prevent them’!!" (reported by Muslim, 667)

2. It is obligatory to blindly follow a madhab. You don't need to know the evidence from Qur'an or sunnah because as long as scholars agree, that's good enough. (again, he says Hanafis say this)

If it were obligatory then there would be no ijtihaad. On following a madhhab, Shaykh Saalih Al-Fawzaan (member of the Standing Committee for Research and Fatwa) said:

"The issue of sticking to a madhhab has in it some detail. If a person has the ability to know the ruling from its proof, and to deduce the ruling from its proof, then it is not permitted for him to cling to a madhhab. rather, it is upon him to take the ruling from the evidence - if he has the ability to do so. However, this is rare amongst the people, since this is a quality of the mujtahideen from the people of knowledge; those that have reaced the levels of ijtihaad. As for one who is not like that, then he cannot take the rulings directly from the evidences. And this is the predominant case amongst the people, especially in these latter times. So [in such a case] there is no harm in adopting one of the four madhhabs and making taqleed of one of them. However, he should not make blind taqleed such that he takes all that is in the madhhab; whether it is correct or incorrect. Rather, it is upon him to take from the madhhab that which - in his view - does not clearly oppose the evidence. As for those views in the madhhab which clearly oppose the evidence, then it is not permissible for the Muslim to take it. Rather it is upon him to adopt what is established by the proof, even if it is in another madhhab So his leaving the madhhab for another madhhab in order to follow the evidence is something good; this is a matter which is good - rather it is obligatory;since following the evidence is an madhhab in order to follow the evidence is something good; this is a matter which is good - rather it is obligatory;since following the evidence is an obligation."

see: http://fatwaislam.com/fis/index.cfm?scn=fd&ID=22


3. It is haram to pray behind Hanafis because they don't say "bismillah..." before reciting al Fatiha during prayer and this can make them kafirs though he wouldn't say they were.

False. The differences between the madh'habs are only jurisprudential! They do not lead to kufr!

4. It is haram to pray with people who are of a different methodology or madhab than you and they shouldn't even enter your mosque. He doesn't mean Sunni/Shia, he means differences in madhabs

And what is his proof? This is what the disease of excessive blind-following leads to. There was a time where in Masjid Al-Haraam, Makkah, there were four prayer courts, one for each madh'hab! This is how far the condition of the Muslims went some couple hundred years ago. When the Saudis took control, they abolished this foolish system and every prays behind one Imaam now.

5. Salafi is a madhab and you can't be a Sunni unless you're a Salafi

Regarding this whole subject matter, there is a excellent article by Shaykh Yusuf Al-Ghafees (former member of the Standing Committee for Research and Fatwa) which should inshaa' Allaah clear up many of the doubts concerning madhhabs, blind following, salafism etc.

"...If a person were to say: The way of the salaf is that they approved of following a madh-hab. No one would be able to object to this. Thus there is a difference between saying the way of the salaf is that they approved of following a madh-hab and saying the way of the salaf is that they made it an end goal and highly encouraged it. We are only speaking about it from the angle of their approval.

The reality of following a madh-hab is that it is something that is done from the point organizing one's approach to seeking knowledge and not as an act of worship. So whoever ascribes himself to Imaam Ahmad as an act of worship, for example as some of the Shi'ah and some of the Sufis do when they ascribe themselves to particular individuals, then no doubt this is an innovation. However, the one who ascribes himself to Imaam Ahmad because this is whom he took his knowledge from and not Imaam as-Shaafi'ee per se, or he read his books but he did not read the books of the Shaafi'ee madh-hab, or he believes that Imaam Ahmad is more knowledgeable about the sunnah. Or the one who knows from the life of Imaam as-Shaafi'ee that he took his knowledge from both the fuqahaa and the muhaditheen, that he had a vast understanding of the Arabic language, and he sees that his principles of fiqh are closer to the evidences, thus he becomes a Shaafi'ee. Likewise the one who becomes a Hanafi because he follows the fiqh of Imaam Abu Haneefah. Therefore the issue is one of properly structuring one's approach to 'ilm. As with the statement of the Messenger (عليه الصلاة والسلام), “If you obey Abu Bakr and Umar you will be guided.” Why should we obey Abu Bakr and Umar? Is it because they have the ability to legislate (in the religion)? No, but this is in order for one to properly structuring his approach to 'ilm; that the one who has less 'ilm follows the one with more 'ilm.

However, whenever a person blindly adheres to the opinion of Imaam Ahmad or Imaam as-Shaafi'ee, we say he is wrong. But to say that a salafi is someone who does not follow a madh-hab, this is not correct. Therefore when it comes to following a madh-hab there are the two extremes and middle path. Thus whenever those who follow a madh-hab and become fanatical in their adherence to their madh-hab to the point that they refuse to look at the evidences and their main concern is only to defend their madh-hab, then no doubt this is a bidah that took place amongst the latter generation of some of the fuqahaa.

The shaykh then finalized his comment on this particular issue by stating, “The truth is that the eminent scholars from the salaf such ibn 'Abdul-Bar, Shaykhul-Islaam, those before them and those who came after them from the contemporary scholars of recent times such as shaykh Muhammad 'Abdul-Wahaab and the shuyookh of the da'wah, they all followed a madh-hab6, but very distant from diehard madh-hab fanaticism. Indeed what they did was choose the fiqh principles of Ahmad, or as-Shaafi'ee, or Abu Hanifah. The point is that when speaking about following a madh-hab it must be a balanced statement. It is not permissible to support a madh-hab based on partisanship, nor is it permissible to object to (the concept of following) a madh-hab. This does not mean that following a madh-hab is a sunnah that the Muslims must adhere to, rather there must be ijtihaad because the ummah is in need of ijtihaad for there are issue that have occurred that the fuqahaa of the past have never discussed. What is meant is that these issue should be approached in the correct manner. Thus making ijtihaad does not negate following a madh-hab, and likewise being salafi does not contradict following a madh-hab. For indeed the imaams of those madhaahib are the imaams of the salaf and many of their prominent followers were upon the aqeedah of the salaf.”

see: http://ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=6153
 

Al-Kashmiri

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Respected brother, this is not the point of discussion and since we have had many such discussions in the past I have removed your post. I still haven't found a respectable scholar from the past to reject naming/ascribing to the madh'hab of an illustrious Shaykh. Indeed, it is said that the Sahaabah were the first to name themselves Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa`ah. The great Imaams used the term Ahl ul-Hadeeth as an alias for the same people (people of Sunnah). If you happen to have a statement of a respectable Shaykh from the time of the Salaf that supports your view, then feel free to post it in a new thread.

Jazaak Allaahu khayran.
 

abdallahsh

New Member
all say like that

Dear all,
One of my friend who follow Jamia-Nizamia(one of the madrasa in Barelvi India) says that if you offer your fard namaz behind Ahl-E-Hadees it will not be valid. I found some people (in Ahl-e-hadees) that offering the namaz the way Hanafi does like not doing rafadayn invalidates the namaz. Common who are you to judge ones namaz is valid or not "please leave it to allah". I would say we should be careful with Shirk and strict to tawheed + follow all the fards(obligations) of allah. Then it doesn't matter which madhab u follow or whether u belong to Ahl-E-Haddes or not all these madhabs+ahl-e-hadees is nothing but different way of understanding the hadiths. And Hanafi madhab doesn't say women should not allow to attend friday Namaz in Masjid but it says the best place for women is at home but if arrangements (wooden compartments, curtains) are there then can come to masjid. In Saudi Arabia I see there are wooden compartment in almost every masjid but on firdays where expatriates live women never comes.
 

Al-Kashmiri

Well-Known Member
Staff member
I AM SO EMBARRASSED OF SOME MODS ACT.......

I MENTION QURAAN, WHAT ALLAAH COMMANDS BUT YOU DELETE AND SAY BRING ONE SCHOLAR'S STATEMENT.....

YOU MAKE ME AND SOME OTHERS TO LEAD BLIND BELIEF NOT ALLOWING , ENCOURAGING TO RESEARCH ON OUR OWN ........


I MAY SOON ASK MODS TO REMOVE ME FROM THIS FORUM.....

You and me are laymen and should not be saying that such-and-such aayah means one thing or another, unless a) You are a mujtahid or b) your opinion is backed up with the understanding of scholars. Otherwise, people could explain the Qur'aan and Sunnah to mean anything they want!

Was-salaam
 

ShyHijabi

Junior Member
Asalaam aleakum,

I see many of the other TTI'ers have answered your questions so I will just address the one I have personal knowledge on. My husband and I follow the Hanifi mahtab and the mosque we attend is mostly Hanifi in thier fiqh interpretation. There is a very nice area for females (a mezzanine floor) for us to pray on Jummah or any other time.

My husband did inform me that many of the people from his country (Pakistan) have cultural prejudices towards allowing women in the mosque and that it has NOTHING to do with Islam. It is purely ignorance and prejudice towards women. So no, there is nothing about Hanifi and not allowing women to Jummah...it is a cultural belief and nothing more.

Oh, and we do say Bismillah before al-fatihah. :)
 

Mabsoot

Amir
Staff member
assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

This person has said a lot of wrong and dangerous things. It is important that a Muslim remains silent, and speaks only with sure knowledge and wisdom. Both of these qualtiies seem lacking from the said person.

may Allah help us ! amin.

We can pray behind any Muslim, who believes in Allah and the Messenger (salallahu alayhi wa salam), it does not matter what their madhab is, even if they are known to be innovators. This is the aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah. Many of the scholars of the past, mentioned this as clear points in their books, such as Sharh Sunnah of Imam Barbahari, and the works of Imam Ahmad and others. We are an Ummah, perhaps we have differences, but, we should remain united. This is what Islam calls us towards.

assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
Thanks everyone.

I knew that in Pakistan they sometimes ban women completely and I know its a cultural thing. It seemed silly because he wasn't even saying women should be banned 100%, JUST that they should be banned from Friday prayers, and his issue wasn't even that they didn't have enough room - he claimed it was a religious issue.

I tried to tell him that all four schools of thought are respected and acknowledged and that we're all Sunni but he kept insisting there was only one correct way and all others are kafirs/innovators/whatever.

Thanks for all the quotes though, I appreciate it.
 

neox297

Junior Member
The two mosques i frequent here in California have accommodation for Women in Friday prayer and one of them draws quite a big crowd

These mosques are quite conservative so this hints to the fact that Women are allowed on jummah and any other day
 
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