Malaysia appoints 1st female Islamic court judges

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Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Whatever you do please do not close this thread. I cannot respond at the moment. I will check in later.
 

Salem9022

Junior Member
Islam is logical and rational. The arguments provided thus far are sexist and poor. The arguments provided thus far are opinions of who knows who. They are conjecture. The arguments are poor because they bring discord. There is no satisfaction of the mind nor the soul.

Prophet Muhammad Went from Makkah to Medina in One night, can you explain to me how this is Logically Possible? We Know Also Angel Jibraeel took Prophet Muhammads heart out and cleansed it and put it back when he was little. Can you logicaly proove this? And Allah turned some Jews from amoung bani Israel into Apes and Swines, Can you explain this to me as well? Can you explain to me how Allah has rose Over the Arsh(throne)?

Logic and rational can only go far to some degree, in other matters we hear and obey by following the proofs and textual evidences which is the most authentic from the authentic scholars
 

Salem9022

Junior Member
And he was also human, doing the best he could, may God reward him handsomely. Humans may err despite their best efforts.

How else would you explain it, brother? Why did scholars of the past, as well as recent times, such as Al-Albaani, find many hadeeths in Al-Bukhaari and Muslim that they rated weak?

Could the reason be that he didn't know? Did he know everything there is to know? Did God or His Messenger say that there will come a man from the city of Bukhaara who will not make any mistakes? We know the Prophet, peace be upon him, himself made mistakes and God corrected him, so why is it unbelievable that a distinguished scholar may make them?

There are Hadiths in Bukhari which is Da'eef(weak) but I havent heard anyone say the Hadith

“No people will ever prosper who appoint a woman in charge of their affairs.”

Is Da'eef. its Sahih. Also none of us should be argueing what is what is not Da'eef since none of us here are Muhaddiths either. So arguing which is Da'eef and which is not when no mention of any Scholar of Hadith is a weak argument in itself.
 

Aisya al-Humaira

الحمدلله على كل حال
Assalamua'alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,

When this news appeared in the front page of the local newspapers and even in the news on TV, it actually made me think for a while. That whether such thing (for a female to be appointed as a judge) ever happened during the time of Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa salam or the Salaf as-Soleeh.

Yeah, about the Queen Balqis being the ruler of the kingdom Saba', once in a lecture of Stories of The Anbiyaa', the ustaadha did said that Queen Balqis; as a female ruling a country wasnt anywhere criticize in history. However, during the time of Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam, a woman was never appointed as a khalifaah/ameer/leader. But yes, women had a HUGE role in supporting the men - the leaders and until now, woman have given an immense contributions to the deen.

Well, I am not going to join this discussion as I fear if I may erred in my words. I will pretty much agree with Brother Al-Kashmiri.

Allaah knows best.

Wassalam.
 

BrotherInIslam7

La Illaha Illa Allah
Staff member
Salaamalaykum..

So everything in the end is justified by the 'women are as smart as men' rant ?
The above was never in question.

A man is not as fit to nurse a baby child as well as a female mother. Does the man possess intellectual deficiency ? or does he lack 'human compassion' ?:rolleyes:

It is just the west who is obsessed with how muslims are 'oppressing' women and holding them back from their 'true freedom'.. I hope we as muslims know better than that !..

They have been justifying everything and anything to suit their agenda.. just ask them about the 'white man's burden' ...
 

Aisya al-Humaira

الحمدلله على كل حال
Norhayati Kaprawi, a prominent Malaysian Muslim women's activist, said the appointments were long overdue.

"What they must focus on is ensuring that they deliver justice and take into consideration ... the realities of Muslim women's lives," Norhayati said.

Some addition, for information to others.

The above "prominent women's activist" is one of the head of a group called Sisters in Islam. And this activist group is actually a very misleading group here in Malaysia in a way that they are actually questioning on what has been stated in the Quran. Among them are that they said women should inherit as much as men do. And that wearing a hijaab isnt obligatory. They are very much fighting for the so-called equal rights of woman.

Well, I have always believed Islam is the only religion that brought up woman to such an honour level. I am not sure if this group has been banned by the government but I am very sure I will not take their words totally.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Wow...first my stance is the argument presented in this thread was not based on anything but conjecture.
If you took the time to digest what I wrote I asked for proof and not an opinion from an unknown source.

I am not debating an east/west status quo. The women are smart as men is in question. The fatawa quoted here makes reference to women being less in intellect.

To the brother who made reference to the Miraj..you make my point for me. Islam encompasses beyond mankind. What evidence is there that women are to be placed in a role that is lesser in degree to the male. None. We are equal in the weight of the soul. We are equal in the weight of life. We are promised heaven or hell. There is nothing written that states women will be judged by more leniency.

Help me out here brothers. A surface answer is not sufficient. I am not ranting nor raving. I am not emotional. I am simply asking the simple why and where is the proof.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
You're right. In fact, the Quran has implied that leadership by women is fine. We learn that from the story of Balqees, the Queen of Sheba. It's in Chapter 27 (Soorat An-Naml). In this Chapter, we hear the hoepoe bird agonizing that Sheba worships the sun and we read how angry Solomon was, peace be upon him, that Sheba worships the sun, but not one word criticizing that Sheba has a queen. Neither does God comment on that, nor did the Prophet, peace be upon him. If there was anything fundamentally wrong with a woman appointed leader over men, God or His Messenger would have said something.

Quite the contrary, in fact. The story of Balqees as narrated in the Quran shows a wise woman. She consults with her court and military. She does the diplomatic thing and sends Solomon a gift. And, when she recognizes the truth, she accepts it. To me, that's a leader. The story, therefore, is praise for women leaders, far from the condemnation opined by many scholars.

This, of course, is rational and natural. Some women have leadership qualities and others don't. Some men have leadership qualities and others don't. There is no biological cause for leadership!

Some will jump in and quote a hadeeth that says, "No people ever prosper who appoint over them a woman." This hadeeth has been shown by many scholars to be doubtful, because it was narrated by a convicted felon! His name was Abu-Bakra. He was convicted of bearing false testimony in an adultery case. Umar ibn Al-Khattaab, may God have been pleased with him, flogged him eighty times and never allowed his testimony, as Chapter 24 mandates. A man whose testimony is permanently rejected cannot be believed in any narration he gives.

:salam2:wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu...

i've never actually thought about it this way:)and it did kind of convinced me that women may BE allowed for leadeship...but howcome we don't have any women prophets.also what about ayah:

وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ۚ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ ۗ وَاللَّـهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ(surah Albaqara.ayah228)

and they have rights similar to those against them in a just a manner,and the men are a degree above them,and ALLAH is MIGHTY,WISE.

so doesn' that mean NOT EQUAL in everything.here ALLAH says HE's wise?are we wiser??or am i missing something
 

Valerie

Junior Member
And how will appointing women as judges in these affairs solve anything? They can be equally or in fact, even more biassed and sexist than men. And history has proven this matter. The above situations require justice, which is a human and not gender specific quality.

If justice is not a gender specific quality, then there shouldn't be an issue.
And to claim that women are even more biased and sexist than men is opinion. Based on what I've read lately, men are far more sexist. And some women buy into their opinions.

This is really discouraging.
 

Al-Kashmiri

Well-Known Member
Staff member

If justice is not a gender specific quality, then there shouldn't be an issue.
And to claim that women are even more biased and sexist than men is opinion. Based on what I've read lately, men are far more sexist. And some women buy into their opinions.

This is really discouraging.

It is discouraging perhaps because you haven't even understood me. I didn't say women were more biased and sexist, I clearly said that in cases they can be. The point in stating this because if someone said "we're introducing female judges due to injustices committed in the court" then a solution would be to sack the staff and hire just judges. Opening the door to sisters doesn't solve the situation, because being female doesn't qualify one as being just (and to that extent male doesn't equal just either).

As you said then, it shouldn't be a gender issue. However, in light of the Qu'raan and Sunnah, it seems there is more to suggest the prohibition of female assuming the role of judges, just as their leadership and Imamship (leading prayer for men) isn't allowed. The discussion is as simple as that. Some people agree, some disagree. All I'm saying is that those who disagree, I believe have no legs to stand on in this matter, because they have no evidences.

And Allaah knows best. I could be wrong but there are scholars who agree on this point, and I have yet to hear a credible shaykh, past or present, to mention that this is allowed in Islaam. Whatever the truth is in the sight of Allaah, is what matters to me. Whether that agrees or disagrees with what I have said is irelevent to me. Islaam is about hearing and obeying, not denying a ruling because it disagrees with your personal views. And I've noticed that such disagreement appears often in topics like this.

Was-salaam
 

Valerie

Junior Member
Opening the door to sisters doesn't solve the situation, because being female doesn't qualify one as being just.

And if there's an issue of justice and they feel the way to solve that is introducing female judges, then being male doesn't qualify one as being just either.
 

Al-Kashmiri

Well-Known Member
Staff member
As-salaamu `alaykum

Sister Valerie, please re-read my reply (edited it before I read your reply). Brother Ayman, you say it is the other round and since you disagree, where is your proof or precedence from a Shaykh? The base rule is that all actions related to the dunya are allowed, unless specifically prohibited, and the base rule regarding matters of Islaam is that there is prohibition, unless there is a proof. If it is as you say, then people could do anything in Islaam without proof, such as the innovations I mentioned earlier. One source I can recall wherein this is stated is Ithaaf Al-`Uqool, by Shaykh `Ubayd Al-Jaabiree.

It's a metaphor, a figure of speech. The Arabs use metaphors all the time. You probably noticed that after reading their poetry. Exegesis books have pointed that out too about the Quran in abundance.

This is clear ta'weel. You explain it contrary to the righteous Imams. Imaam Malik said "Istawa is known, how it occurs is unknown, belief in it is obligatory and asking concerning it is innovation". Ahl us-Sunnah don't emply ta'weel with respect to Allaah's names and attributes.

Lastly, you resort to using the story of Bilqees as a proof, yet we are the ummah of Muhammad (sall Allaahu `alayhi wasallam), not Bilqees or Sulaymaan. The legislations of the past nations do not apply to us, this is from the basics of our creed. If you believe the hadeeth regarding female leadership is weak than fair enough but again, where is your proof, where are the scholars who have said this and where are their arguments.

Was-salaam
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
There's absolutely no basis for stating that women are less impartial. To give a real world example, there is a female judge in Palestine right now and all the women expected her to be lenient with them and sympathize with them but she doesn't - she is impartial and strict in her application of the law. She does not side with women simply because they are women.

The whole thing is simply ridiculous. If you think a woman sides with a woman because she's a woman, then why don't you think a man would side with a man because he's a man? There is so much sexism and unjust patriarchy in society today - the courts can only benefit from female judges. Women who are educated and have proven their ability to fairly cases and apply law should have the opportunity to become judges.

Not every woman is suited to be a judge, and not every man is either. It has nothing to do with sex or gender but personality and intelligence which both men and woman are equally as capable of having.

Some of the attitudes in this thread are further proof to me that we desperately need more women lawyers and judges.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
There's absolutely no basis for stating that women are less impartial. To give a real world example, there is a female judge in Palestine right now and all the women expected her to be lenient with them and sympathize with them but she doesn't - she is impartial and strict in her application of the law. She does not side with women simply because they are women.

The whole thing is simply ridiculous. If you think a woman sides with a woman because she's a woman, then why don't you think a man would side with a man because he's a man? There is so much sexism and unjust patriarchy in society today - the courts can only benefit from female judges. Women who are educated and have proven their ability to fairly cases and apply law, they should have the opportunity to become judges.

Some of the attitudes in this thread are further proof to me that we desperately need more women lawyers and judges.

sister i'm afraid you are picking on the wrong person this specific point was not started by the brother:)
Assalaam walaikum,


As the brother said we have female related issues in Muslim lands..hello..who better to give fair judgement on a female issue than a woman. If I am not mistaken the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, would suggest to women to seek counsel from his wives.......

he only answered what was started!!
 

Al-Kashmiri

Well-Known Member
Staff member
As-salaamu `alaykum sister Kayleigh

There's absolutely no basis for stating that women are less impartial. To give a real world example, there is a female judge in Palestine right now and all the women expected her to be lenient with them and sympathize with them but she doesn't - she is impartial and strict in her application of the law. She does not side with women simply because they are women.

No one here has denied this possibility according to my knowledge.

The whole thing is simply ridiculous. If you think a woman sides with a woman because she's a woman, then why don't you think a man would side with a man because he's a man? There is so much sexism and unjust patriarchy in society today - the courts can only benefit from female judges. Women who are educated and have proven their ability to fairly cases and apply law should have the opportunity to become judges.

No where was that assumed nor was this ever believed. It seems that some people believe I alluded this, but I didn't and wouldn't make such a foolish statement.

Not every woman is suited to be a judge, and not every man is either. It has nothing to do with sex or gender but personality and intelligence which both men and woman are equally as capable of having.

This is true, but the question is, does Islaam permit it. We are looking at proofs, not opinions.

Some of the attitudes in this thread are further proof to me that we desperately need more women lawyers and judges.

And why is that if you don't mind me asking.
 

Al-Kashmiri

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Sorry, what I should've said is that the Asl is ibaahah, but `ibaadah is what requires proof. My mistake.

Moving on, what you highlighted doesn't prove it is a figure of speech. It simply shows that we don't know the kayfiyyah of Allaah attributes and actions. To then say it is metaphorical is simply imitation of the jahmi's et al. Not understanding simply means we don't understand, it doesn't mean we need to deny the attribute and explain it away, so that it confirms with our limited intellect.

Anyway, that point deserves rest (in this thread).
 

arzafar

Junior Member
@ sister alf
firstly im not supporting sisters or brothers, west or east. i want to know the truth about islaam no matter what it is. It's just that on this issue there is some confusion.

@ brother Kashmiri.
so you are implying that appointing judges is a religious act rather than a worldly affair. i had always thought that appointing judges was a worldly affair hence i wanted to know where it had been specifically forbidden for women to become a judge. Now since appointing judges is a religious affair, i would like to know that during his lifetime, did Muhammad (pbuh) appoint a male judge or not? kindly provide references

@ brother ayman
from the quran and hadith it's clear that men are leaders and women are followers, in all affairs. i dont think the story you quoted proves otherwise.

The problem is that i dont see a judge as a leader. i always saw judiciary as separate from the executive. btw umar (ra) appointed a woman as a magistrate to check weights i think. does that count as a position of leadership or judge? i think it's the latter no?
 
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