Malaysia appoints 1st female Islamic court judges

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kayleigh

Junior Member
:salam2:wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu...

i've never actually thought about it this way:)and it did kind of convinced me that women may BE allowed for leadeship...but howcome we don't have any women prophets.also what about ayah:

وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ۚ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ ۗ وَاللَّـهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ(surah Albaqara.ayah228)

and they have rights similar to those against them in a just a manner,and the men are a degree above them,and ALLAH is MIGHTY,WISE.

so doesn' that mean NOT EQUAL in everything.here ALLAH says HE's wise?are we wiser??or am i missing something

Women probably weren't prophets because back then no one would have ever listened to a woman.

Maybe there were women messengers? We don't know who all the many messengers there were, unless it says somewhere they couldn't have been? If it does say that somewhere, I'd be interested to know.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Brother Arzafar has written an excellent post. We want to learn. This is an exericse. In summation, to this point, we really do not have evidence that prevents a woman from becoming a judge. Am I correct thus far.

I appreciate the civil manner and explanations very much.
 

arzafar

Junior Member
Women probably weren't prophets because back then no one would have ever listened to a woman.

Maybe there were women messengers? We don't know who all the many messengers there were, unless it says somewhere they couldn't have been? If it does say that somewhere, I'd be interested to know.

1. vast majority of the people rejected the message of male prophets too.

2. You're making the same mistake as the author of the original fatwa did. There are only male prophets mentioned in quraan and hadith. to prove that there were female prophets you need proof. no proof no female prophets.

and finally Muslim women cannot be leaders of countries.
if single, they have to follow father (then brothers, grand father and uncles)
if married, they have to follow the husband.
both of above are proven.
now how exactly does she govern her father, husband when they are in-charge of her.
 

Aisya al-Humaira

الحمدلله على كل حال
Assalamua'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Just to add a little.

There is a difference between a Prophet and a Messenger. There was a thread here discussed on this matter but I wasnt able to find it. But here is some info about it: The difference between a Messenger and a Prophet

Though we may not know all the Messengers ever sent to humankind, but still, the definition of a Prophet and a Messenger is that they are MEN chosen by Allaah. So, no, there was no women messengers.

A bit off-topic but just felt like clarifying it.

Wassalam.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Women probably weren't prophets because back then no one would have ever listened to a woman.

Maybe there were women messengers? We don't know who all the many messengers there were, unless it says somewhere they couldn't have been? If it does say that somewhere, I'd be interested to know.


sister i'm afraid no there isn't a women a messsanger as it says in Quran:

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِم (surah usuf.ayah:109)

And WE have not sent before you but men from among the people.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
@ sister alf
firstly im not supporting sisters or brothers, west or east. i want to know the truth about islaam no matter what it is. It's just that on this issue there is some confusion.

@ brother Kashmiri.
so you are implying that appointing judges is a religious act rather than a worldly affair. i had always thought that appointing judges was a worldly affair hence i wanted to know where it had been specifically forbidden for women to become a judge. Now since appointing judges is a religious affair, i would like to know that during his lifetime, did Muhammad (pbuh) appoint a male judge or not? kindly provide references

@ brother ayman
from the quran and hadith it's clear that men are leaders and women are followers, in all affairs. i dont think the story you quoted proves otherwise.

The problem is that i dont see a judge as a leader. i always saw judiciary as separate from the executive. btw umar (ra) appointed a woman as a magistrate to check weights i think. does that count as a position of leadership or judge? i think it's the latter no?


@black i want to kno about that too...

@maroon..tht's interesting!!!
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Which Aaya are you referring to, sister?

this one:

:salam2:wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu...

i've never actually thought about it this way:)and it did kind of convinced me that women may BE allowed for leadeship...but howcome we don't have any women prophets.also what about ayah:

وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ۚ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ ۗ وَاللَّـهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ(surah Albaqara.ayah228)

and they have rights similar to those against them in a just a manner,and the men are a degree above them,and ALLAH is MIGHTY,WISE.

so doesn' that mean NOT EQUAL in everything.here ALLAH says HE's wise?are we wiser??or am i missing something


might as well explain this:)

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women,because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means”

[al-Nisa’ 4:34]


to excel the other.then howcome are we arguing here that women are the same as men and she can be the leader and all....
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Sister that is not what is being discussed. We are seeking a ruling. We want to know where it is written that a woman can not be a judge. We understand the ruler of a nation. Those are two different positions.

If I understand the ayat you are questioning..it is a matter of degree. The like for like thing. It would be ludicrous for any man to excell over ALL women. In the context this ayat is about protection not the ability to judge and counsel.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Assalaam walaikum,

Sister that is not what is being discussed. We are seeking a ruling. We want to know where it is written that a woman can not be a judge. We understand the ruler of a nation. Those are two different positions.

If I understand the ayat you are questioning..it is a matter of degree. The like for like thing. It would be ludicrous for any man to excell over ALL women. In the context this ayat is about protection not the ability to judge and counsel.

sis may be not now,but before everyone was more of discussing about women being leaders then judges.and my question is for akhi ayman as on his post about Queen bilqees,he says that women can become leaders too,firstly coz the hadith is fabricated and secndly the referance of queen bilquees in Quran as the leader of her nation so i just want some calrification of these ayah from him:)that's all
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Then we need to redirect the thread to the simple question of judge. There is no need to digress anymore. It would cause more confusion.

Seeking knowledge is not always an easy task. We have to let go of many preconcieved notions of what we thought was right. That is why when we gain knowledge we call it a breakthrough.

I still have not found one instance wherein the Quran or Sunnah that prohibits a woman from being a jurist. There may be a man who has more knowledge than me and equally there is one who has less. There may be a man who has more strenght than me and equally there is one who has less. We can go up and down the list. The other responses are invalid.

You have to be careful of what you write becuase you have to be able to stand behind it. Thus far..many have taken the discussion to a different area. Why simply because they can not back up this simple question.
 

revert2007

Love Fishing
:wasalam:
Islam is based on Quran and sunnah. and nowhere is written that women have 1 intelligence and men 9.

Assalamualikum.
I myself looking for the evidence.Don't blame me as born Muslims are the one to tell me all kind of stuffs.I myself did not come with this "fatwa".If you go to Malaysia and ask any Muslims about this line,they will know and they will say yes.So my question is where do they get this idea from?

Assalamualikum :)
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Assalaam walaikum,

Then we need to redirect the thread to the simple question of judge. There is no need to digress anymore. It would cause more confusion.

fine sis whatever,since akhi asked i repeated myself he can answer on my wall inshallah.

Seeking knowledge is not always an easy task. We have to let go of many preconcieved notions of what we thought was right. That is why when we gain knowledge we call it a breakthrough.

right again!!we do have to let that go.let's hope everyone keeps that in mind:D!!
I still have not found one instance wherein the Quran or Sunnah that prohibits a woman from being a jurist. There may be a man who has more knowledge than me and equally there is one who has less. There may be a man who has more strenght than me and equally there is one who has less. We can go up and down the list. The other responses are invalid.

tbh no one has because the right Q has been asked now in right kind of WORDS.so inshallah we will find the right answer too.but i think since the chair of a judge is the place of authourity,as she judges she kind of LEADS the court so i think it will be rejected for women.And it will always be backed up with the problems we women have and duties we have to our families,both of which may hinder her way to do the job of a JUDGE(an important one too)just as nicely as a man would be able to.so i dunno let's see:)
You have to be careful of what you write becuase you have to be able to stand behind it. Thus far..many have taken the discussion to a different area. Why simply because they can not back up this simple question.

inshallah i am and i will be sister and i stand by it too,it's not my fault some get all emotional and defensve and then start asking Q that confuse me too.

this Q could have been answered had someone asked it like akhi arzafar did.in simple words rahter then the mess of emotional and defensive baseless words that you may view again in everybody's previous posts...

however now that the Q is clear and ppl rahter stick to it then i'm fine with it inshallah:)akhi Ayman can answer on my wall.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
The story doesn't prove that women can rule over men and God doesn't mind? Ok, if you say so.

The Quran does not say that men are leaders and women are followers. This is a common fallacy. The Quran says that men are women are here for each other,

"And the believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is recognized [as right] and forbid what is frowned upon [as wrong], establish prayer, give alms and obey God and His Messenger. Those - God will have mercy upon them. Indeed, God is Exalted in Might and very Wise." {9:71}

A girl, or a boy, is required to obey both their father and mother. A wife is required to obey her husband. Those are arrangements within a family. They have nothing to do with the world outside the home. Outside the home, we are all required to obey God, His Messenger and our duly appointed righteous heads of state.

Leadership does not mean one orders and the follower obeys. Leadership is a quality that can only be earned. Our best example of a leader is the Prophet, peace be upon him. He ordered only what he was told by God to order. In all other matters, he consulted with his companions and wives.

He consulted his wife Umm Salama at the treaty of Hudaybiya. Muslims rebelled and would not obey him. He went into his tent where Umm Salama was staying and helping out and said to her, "Muslims have perished, Umm Salama! I ordered them and they did not comply." She asked him what happened and then gave him a wise, cool-headed advice, "Pack your stuff and start heading back to Medina. When Muslims see you do that, they will follow you." She was right. He did and they did as she expected.

That's an example of the Prophet (PBUH) obeying his wife. BTW, "obey" is not a derogatory word, as some people have come to believe. It simply means to agree with what you're asked to do and do it.

In one battle, the Prophet (PBUH) ordered the troops to camp at some site. A soldier asked him, "Is this a site God ordered you to camp at, or are we talking opinion, war and tactics?" The Prophet (PBUH) answered, "Rather, it's opinion, war and tactics." The man said, "This is no camp site." Then he pointed to another site and the Prophet followed him and the rest of the soldiers as well. That's an example of the Prophet (PBUH) obeying one of his soldiers.

In both of these examples, the prophet (PBUH) taught us that a leader leads by example, not by orders, and engages whom he leads. That example was followed by the righteous caliphs. Both Abu-Bakr and Umar, may God have been pleased with them, said the following in their acceptance speeches,

"I've been appointed over you but I'm not the best of you. If you find me doing right, support me. If you find me doing wrong, correct me."

After Umar said it, a man shouted, "If we find you doing wrong, we will correct it with our swords!" Umar replied, "Alhamdulillah that there are Muslims who would correct Umar if he deviates."

I'm sorry that I expanded the subject of this thread from judge to leader, but I felt it had to be said, for too many Muslims don't really believe that a woman can be a good leader and that simply isn't so.

Now, I'd like to address the meritorious argument that some verses in the Quran seem to suggest that men are leaders and women are followers. Two verses have been mentioned,

  1. "Men are the caretakers of women, for what God has given more of to some over other and for what they spend from their wealth." {4:34}

    First, This verse is talking about the relationship between a man and his wife, evidenced by the phrase "in beds" later in the verse. Therefore, it is not a valid argument for the relationship between men and women in general and outside the home.

    Second, the verse gives an affectionate, benevolent description to the responsibility of a man toward his wife: care taker. The word God uses, "Qawwaam" means one who is taking care of something and alert to anything that might infringe on it. It is used for a business owner or a landlord as well.

    Last, God gives the contingency, or reason, why this responsibility is assigned to men. They are endowed with strength and finances. That means they are in a position to take care of and defend women.

  2. "Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what God has created in their wombs if they believe in God and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want reconciliation. And due to the wives is similar to what is expected of them, according to what is reasonable. But the men have a degree over them [in responsibility and authority]. And God is Exalted in Might and Wise." (2:228)

    Clearly, the verse is again talking about a man's responsibility toward his wife. Thus, it cannot be used to generalize the relationship between men and women outside the home.

    In addition, the degree God refers to in this verse may be interpreted in two ways: authority or responsibility. If you go for the authority interpretation, then the meaning is "Divorced wives must agree to go back to their husbands if they want them back during the grace period." If you go for the responsibility interpretation, then the meaning is "Men who divorced their wives and then took them back should be extra careful not to do that again. They are expected to act responsibly, not in haste or emotionally."

    Unfortunately, many Muslims interpret the degree as a degree of favor. There is no linguistic basis for that, since the words God has used in the Quran to indicate favor have been "Fadhl" and "Ni`ma", not "Daraja" (degree).

So, what is the relationship between men and women in general as the Quran specifies? It's the verse from Soorat At-Tawba that I quoted above. Here it is again,

"And the believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is recognized [as right] and forbid what is frowned upon [as wrong], establish prayer, give alms and obey God and His Messenger. Those - God will have mercy upon them. Indeed, God is Exalted in Might and very Wise." {9:71}

Can your ally be your leader? Sure, God says in the holy Quran,

"God is the ally of those who have believed." (2:257)

And

"Your ally is none but God, His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give alms, and they bow [in worship]. " (5:55)


:salam2:wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu..
one word:BEAUTIFUL:)!!

well explained and answered everything i had for now:)jazakallah khairan for the DEEETAILED answer:)!!

btw being a leader is in no way a favour.it's an extra responsibility,extra problems...had we been spared from this i would have said the women are favoured by ALLAH that HE saved them from this hectic positon...
err one Q:why do you belive we don't have women prophets??prophets are leaders in the sense that they direct us in the right way under ALLAH's orders so :confused:
 

abu'muhammad

Junior Member
Assalamualikum.
I myself looking for the evidence.Don't blame me as born Muslims are the one to tell me all kind of stuffs.I myself did not come with this "fatwa".If you go to Malaysia and ask any Muslims about this line,they will know and they will say yes.So my question is where do they get this idea from?

Assalamualikum :)

wa-alaykum salaam,

Brother ahmed answered in response to that already. the reply in response to bold in dark... this is when personal agendas, beliefs are used in understanding without any basis. I had a colleague (non-muslim though) he used to say that women have their brain in knees !?.. simply to degrade them. most people surrounding them have laughs.. having said something wise. this develops idea and that further spreads from one to other. some people will even say women opinion shouldn't be sought. then InshaAllaah we should ask for evidence from them so that we might not spread the unknown,unreliable matter, inshaAllaah.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Assalamualikum.
I myself looking for the evidence.Don't blame me as born Muslims are the one to tell me all kind of stuffs.I myself did not come with this "fatwa".If you go to Malaysia and ask any Muslims about this line,they will know and they will say yes.So my question is where do they get this idea from?

Assalamualikum :)


lol sister i forgot to answer this:pthis is how it happens...

one respected elder says something that is his own personal opnion about stuff..
now there are peaople who respect and rever him and treasure the words.then they use them when get a chance:pand say it's the Quote of blah blah.then their children do.and then the grand kids.it moves in generations.soon the name of the guy or the fact that it was an opinion is forgotten.they become golden words.you got to follow them and believe in them,don't Question at ALL:p....in some cases if not it's a sin...

so that how;)

may ALLAH protect us from such curses.
 

revert2007

Love Fishing
wa-alaykum salaam,

Brother ahmed answered in response to that already. the reply in response to bold in dark... this is when personal agendas, beliefs are used in understanding without any basis. I had a colleague (non-muslim though) he used to say that women have their brain in knees !?.. simply to degrade them. most people surrounding them have laughs.. having said something wise. this develops idea and that further spreads from one to other. some people will even say women opinion shouldn't be sought. then InshaAllaah we should ask for evidence from them so that we might not spread the unknown,unreliable matter, inshaAllaah.

lol sister i forgot to answer this:pthis is how it happens...

one respected elder says something that is his own personal opnion about stuff..
now there are peaople who respect and rever him and treasure the words.then they use them when get a chance:pand say it's the Quote of blah blah.then their children do.and then the grand kids.it moves in generations.soon the name of the guy or the fact that it was an opinion is forgotten.they become golden words.you got to follow them and believe in them,don't Question at ALL:p....in some cases if not it's a sin...

so that how;)

may ALLAH protect us from such curses.

Assalamualikum.
Well this is going to be too hard on reverts like me I guess.The people that we trust and turn to eventually teaches bi'dah and give us wrong information.
I personally went through this 3 years a go when I was thought all kind of bi'dah and I had to unlearn everything that I learned in one year.That was really difficult but Alhamdulilah through this site I have gained precious knowledge and now through this thread I know that the line "man has 9 wisdom and 1 lust" isn't true :).
don't worry,everyone is still learning and others should be more careful when you are teaching reverts.

Sorry for being off topic.Now I guess we can concentrate on the thread and I am still waiting for the final answer whether a woman can be a judge or not.I personally wouldn't agree a woman being a judge but my personal opinion is not important.I just need to see the evidence from both sides and I have to know what Islam says about this issue.

jazaka Alalh khair
Allah knows the best
Assalamualikum.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

So it is settled. Alhumdullila. One small step for womankind. There is only one way to go: to infinity and beyond.

I throughly enjoyed the responses. Islam has given me the ability to be secure in my intelligence. That is better than an ice-creram float on a hot summer day.

I pray Brother Al-Kashmiri understands that my me Trazan you Jane was simply an example to get the point across.
 

hassana elkoussi

Junior Member
As-salamu alaiikum dear brothers and sisters,

I'm not very fond of arguing really, but I have a few questions to raise here:

1- Have there been any female judges during the time of the Prophet pbuh or his rightly guided Caliphates?

2- Dear sisters, do u think u can give a right unbiased judgment during menesis or pregnancy ?

3- Can a breast-feeding woman be fully focused to pass a judgment when it's already time to breast feed her poor baby? Or will she just have the baby weaned ( before the end of the 2-year period of breast-feeding) to carry out a job that can be more efficiently done by someone else ?

4- How about the emotional nature of women, can u make the right decision in your own lives when u get too emotional?

5- How can a female judge avoid intermingling with non mahram men ?

6- What kind of people does a judge – generally speaking – deal with?

7- How can we argue when we have such a hadith by the prophet pbuh
It was narrated that Abu Bakrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) heard that the people of Persia had appointed the daughter of Chosroes as their ruler, he said: “No people will ever prosper who appoint a woman in charge of their affairs.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (4425) bearing in mind that the word " affairs " is a general term including the job of "judge" and many many others.

8- How would u interpret verses 3-4 from surat Al Lail, ( The Night) " I swear by the night when it draws a veil/ And the day when it shines in brightness/ And the creating of the male and the female/ Your striving is most surely directed to various ( ends) ( Traslation of Mohamed Habib Shaker )
**" By ( the mystery) of the creation of male and female/ Verily, ( the ends) ye strive for are diverse ( Translation of Yusuf Ali)
*** By Him Who created male and female/Certainly, your efforts and deeds are diverse ( different in aims and purposes ) ( Translation of Mohsin Khan)
Btw, the interpretation of Sheikh Mohammed Mutwally Al Sha'rawi ( one of the greatest – if not THE GREATEST- scholars of the 20th century) explained it by saying that Allah has created male and female each for a different job or purpose or task in life. They are equal in reckoning, but their tasks are different by virtue of their physical differences ( mentioned in the above questions)

9- How would u explain the sahih hadith of " You are all shepherds and are all responsible for your flocks … and the woman is a shepherdess and responsible in her husband's home." ????
FYI all the above questions are inspired from the lessons of the Sheikh and from his interpretation of the Quran which I keep and cherish and refer to all the time. He was not against women working by the way, just recommended not having to intermingle with the other sex. He was asked if a woman could work somewhere where she may see males around, but not having direct contact with them. He said it was ok and called this اختلاط رؤية In other words, if the intermingling is only limited to seeing one another but not having to deal unnecessarily with one another , then it's ok. I have no more to add except that sister revert 2007 has included a very precious fatwa on top of which is stated that " This is the view of the Maalikis, Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and of some of the Hanafis." Are we in any way more knowledgeable to argue about the fatwas of such great scholars who dedicated their whole lives to the study of the deen and find answers to questions that may arise in the future of the ummah ? I doubt.

P.S. This doesn't mean that women are undermined or taken lightly in Islam, we have the example of Um Salamah ( The mother of the believers RAA) who gave a very precious advice to the Prophet pbuh in Al Hudaibiyah and actually saved the muslims from a great fitnah. (Just a reminder that there are very wise women, whose advice should be sought, but whose task of raising the coming generations is more precious than anything else. The good upbringing of a child in islam is more likely to produce another SALAH EL DIN to free Al Quds. I wonder if being a female judge could have a similar result?Salam alaikum :hijabi:
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
2. You're making the same mistake as the author of the original fatwa did. There are only male prophets mentioned in quraan and hadith. to prove that there were female prophets you need proof. no proof no female prophets.

No, I'm not. I'm asking and making a guess. That's usually what a question mark means. and I'm not talking about prophets.

Secondly, the fact that it is not mentioned proves nothing. I'm asking whether or not there is anything that says outright that only men were messengers, and I did get my answer from someone else.

As-salamu alaiikum dear brothers and sisters,

I'm not very fond of arguing really, but I have a few questions to raise here:

1- Have there been any female judges during the time of the Prophet pbuh or his rightly guided Caliphates?

2- Dear sisters, do u think u can give a right unbiased judgment during menesis or pregnancy ?

3- Can a breast-feeding woman be fully focused to pass a judgment when it's already time to breast feed her poor baby? Or will she just have the baby weaned ( before the end of the 2-year period of breast-feeding) to carry out a job that can be more efficiently done by someone else ?

4- How about the emotional nature of women, can u make the right decision in your own lives when u get too emotional?

5- How can a female judge avoid intermingling with non mahram men ?
:

What about women who have grown children, who have already gone through menopause, who don't want to or can't have children at all? I personally know a few men who are much more emotional than any woman. Obviously those men are not suited to be judges. Same thing goes for women - if they are highly emotional, then perhaps they shouldn't be a judge. Emotion is not a bad thing on its own either, and both sexes feel emotions. You just need to be able to put it to the side and think logically without letting your emotions make your decisions. I know plenty of women who are capable of doing that. These descriptions of the sexes that so many seem to be stuck on are not absolutely set in stone. There are always exceptions. They are just very broad generalizations and are obviously not true in many cases.

I have always believed, and been under the impression that Islam taught that women shouldn't flirt or make idle talk with non-mahram men. But that they are perfectly able to conduct business in a straightforward manner with non-mahram men. That is what a judge does. No judge is going to flirt across the courtroom in the middle of a trial. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Brother ayman has already responded to some of the other things you've posted, and shown that most of the verses that put men in charge of women are talking about husband and wife. One of the things you posted even specifically says husband.
 
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