Assalamu Alaikum [Peace be unto you],
In some recent threads I have started, some comments of brothers on this forum referred to topics I'm not that familiar with. Brother ayman1, for example, referred to 'fiat currency' in this post. I'd like to thank him for sparking my interest in this topic.
And then, I learned about a video entitled Money as Debt. It was produced by a Mr. Paul Grignon, a citizen of Canada.
Please watch the video (which is 47 minutes long) and then please read my comments below:
[vg]-9050474362583451279[/vg]
My comments are as follows:
1- Mr. Paul Grignon is not an economist. Here are some words about himself:
Source: http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/ProducersComments.html
2- I'm worried about the lack of specific reference details to the statements of American Presidents, economists and other people mentioned in the video.
The best form of reference would be to a book. So, if he was referring to a person's opinion, then this opinion should be cited from a book written by that person. Details of the title of the book, the publisher, the year it was published and the ISBN [International Standard Book Number] of the book.
If the opinion was expressed in an official capacity, then one could cite from official websites, such as the U.S. Congress website, the White House website. There are official publications that document a President's words and also the words of Congressmen of the House of Representatives or the Senate. Sometimes, news channels could also be cited as quoting these officials [such as CNN and the BBC], although I prefer more original sources.
So, I was glad that Mr. Paul Grignon has put the following website that cites references for the sayings presented in his videos. The website is:
http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/references.htm
I checked it out, and I found out some shortcomings.
To begin with, I was dismayed that he even mentioned en.wikipedia.org as part of his sources. I must admit that in the past I have used that website without caution and without qualifying my statements, but I have learned that it could be easily edited and so the information mentioned in it are only trustworthy if a good source is mentioned and cited. Therefore, he should mentioned the source directly without even mentioning en.wikipedia.org.
The following statement just really dismayed me (which I set in bold type, like so):
Presidential Quotes on Banking
If he didn't find an original source, the he shouldn't have quoted the above saying.
Secondly, he should make sure the website really contains what he claims. For example, he mentioned:
I have searched the website www.andygause.com and I have not found the statement above. Additionally, he should mention independent sources that show that Andrew Gause is a 'Monetary Historian' and the academic degrees that prove this.
Thirdly, some of the links have gone 'dead'. For example:
In addition to not saying anything about who Mark Mansfield is (or was), the website he referred to doesn't work anymore.
Fourthly, the sources he mentions cannot be really trusted:
For example:
The www.federal-reserve.net website is not the official website of the U.S. Federal Reserve. It's a private website that attacks the Federal Reserve. The second and third websites don't even work.
So, how do we really know that Mr. Robert Hemphill (Credit Manager, Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta) actually said what is mentioned above?
To be fair to Mr. Paul Grignon, not all of his quotes are 'bad. For example:
The www.gutenberg.org website is also know as Project Gutenberg. It aims to make books that have no more copyright protection free to people to download. It's a good start, but a better option is to mention the details of the publisher of the book The New Freedom and the page on which the statement is found.
I tried that on the google books website, and I found that it was on page 18 of the book. The details of the book are below:
Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=MSZGnhh4AbUC
On the following website, type "condemnation of it" [and be sure to use the quotation signs " "] in the search box, and you'll get the result.
But to be sure the President Woodrow Wilson meant bankers when he spoke of 'a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it', then we have to read a good section of the book to make sure that's what he meant.
Another example of a good quotation that could be made but wasn't properly presented was the following:
Two problems with the above information is that I don't have a reliable source telling me who Irving Fisher was, and that all of the above websites do not contain the words ascribed to Fisher.
So, he should have mentioned who Irving Fisher was. Here's a short biography of Professor Irving Fisher, from Yale University Library website:
Source: http://www.library.yale.edu/un/papers/fisher.htm
And then, he should have mentioned that the phrase 'Thus, our national circulating medium is now at the mercy of loan transactions of banks, which lend, not money, but promises to supply money they do not possess' is found in a book written by Professor Irving Fisher. Here are details of the book:
Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=UIEvAAAAMAAJ&dq=&pgis=1
In the above website of Google Books, type the following in the "Search in this book" field, and please use the quotation signs [" "]:
"Thus, our national circulating medium"
And then try a new search with:
"at the mercy of loan transactions of banks"
Both times, the result you'll see is only a only a partial result, but now you know that this phrase is on page 7 of the book mentioned above. Now, you can either go to a public library and read this book, or you can buy it online.
3- Finally, the video uses 'democracy' and the U.S. 'Constitution' to argue against bankers. As a Muslim, I have a certain attitude to democracy and any system that equates or favours the words of people with or over the words of Allah or His Messenger [peace be upon him]. Please read the thread "A true jewel in the world of books!" by clicking on the following link:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?p=74045#post74045
4- Some of you might believe that with the above comments, I'm actually defending Commercial Banks and loaning with interest (the modern term for 'usury'). And I mention here firmly that it is certainly not my intention to do so. I know that usury [also known as Riba in Arabic] is forbidden by Allah the Almighty, and that Commercial Banks are the modern day versions of this usury.
The following is an religious opinion published on the website supervised by Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid. It's Fatwa no. 23346, which is entitled "Ruling on depositing money in the bank, and interest".
The question was:
And the answer was:
Source: http://islamqa.com/en/ref/23346
The best reason to describe why I posted this video and why I wrote my comments is as follows:
When I first watched it, I wanted all my bothers in Islam to know what I have just learned. And I'm optimistic that with better research it could be established that there's still a lot of truth in the message of the above video. Having said that, it is very important that we Muslims must be sure of the accuracy of the information we present. Just because this video's message is against usury should not allow me or any other Muslim to be complacent about checking out the sources and making sure that they're all quoted correctly and in context.
So, a thorough research should be done on those quotations and one should try to find the original authentic sources of these quotations. But even if most these quotations turned out to be false, that will not make me change my mind about usury being forbidden, for in the end it is Allah the Almighty who said:
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 2:275-279]
And the words of Allah and/or His Messenger [peace be upon him] should be enough for any Muslim.
Best regards,
Bluegazer
In some recent threads I have started, some comments of brothers on this forum referred to topics I'm not that familiar with. Brother ayman1, for example, referred to 'fiat currency' in this post. I'd like to thank him for sparking my interest in this topic.
And then, I learned about a video entitled Money as Debt. It was produced by a Mr. Paul Grignon, a citizen of Canada.
Please watch the video (which is 47 minutes long) and then please read my comments below:
[vg]-9050474362583451279[/vg]
My comments are as follows:
1- Mr. Paul Grignon is not an economist. Here are some words about himself:
Source: http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/ProducersComments.html
2- I'm worried about the lack of specific reference details to the statements of American Presidents, economists and other people mentioned in the video.
The best form of reference would be to a book. So, if he was referring to a person's opinion, then this opinion should be cited from a book written by that person. Details of the title of the book, the publisher, the year it was published and the ISBN [International Standard Book Number] of the book.
If the opinion was expressed in an official capacity, then one could cite from official websites, such as the U.S. Congress website, the White House website. There are official publications that document a President's words and also the words of Congressmen of the House of Representatives or the Senate. Sometimes, news channels could also be cited as quoting these officials [such as CNN and the BBC], although I prefer more original sources.
So, I was glad that Mr. Paul Grignon has put the following website that cites references for the sayings presented in his videos. The website is:
http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/references.htm
I checked it out, and I found out some shortcomings.
To begin with, I was dismayed that he even mentioned en.wikipedia.org as part of his sources. I must admit that in the past I have used that website without caution and without qualifying my statements, but I have learned that it could be easily edited and so the information mentioned in it are only trustworthy if a good source is mentioned and cited. Therefore, he should mentioned the source directly without even mentioning en.wikipedia.org.
The following statement just really dismayed me (which I set in bold type, like so):
Presidential Quotes on Banking
If he didn't find an original source, the he shouldn't have quoted the above saying.
Secondly, he should make sure the website really contains what he claims. For example, he mentioned:
I have searched the website www.andygause.com and I have not found the statement above. Additionally, he should mention independent sources that show that Andrew Gause is a 'Monetary Historian' and the academic degrees that prove this.
Thirdly, some of the links have gone 'dead'. For example:
In addition to not saying anything about who Mark Mansfield is (or was), the website he referred to doesn't work anymore.
Fourthly, the sources he mentions cannot be really trusted:
For example:
The www.federal-reserve.net website is not the official website of the U.S. Federal Reserve. It's a private website that attacks the Federal Reserve. The second and third websites don't even work.
So, how do we really know that Mr. Robert Hemphill (Credit Manager, Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta) actually said what is mentioned above?
To be fair to Mr. Paul Grignon, not all of his quotes are 'bad. For example:
The www.gutenberg.org website is also know as Project Gutenberg. It aims to make books that have no more copyright protection free to people to download. It's a good start, but a better option is to mention the details of the publisher of the book The New Freedom and the page on which the statement is found.
I tried that on the google books website, and I found that it was on page 18 of the book. The details of the book are below:
Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=MSZGnhh4AbUC
On the following website, type "condemnation of it" [and be sure to use the quotation signs " "] in the search box, and you'll get the result.
But to be sure the President Woodrow Wilson meant bankers when he spoke of 'a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it', then we have to read a good section of the book to make sure that's what he meant.
Another example of a good quotation that could be made but wasn't properly presented was the following:
Two problems with the above information is that I don't have a reliable source telling me who Irving Fisher was, and that all of the above websites do not contain the words ascribed to Fisher.
So, he should have mentioned who Irving Fisher was. Here's a short biography of Professor Irving Fisher, from Yale University Library website:
Source: http://www.library.yale.edu/un/papers/fisher.htm
And then, he should have mentioned that the phrase 'Thus, our national circulating medium is now at the mercy of loan transactions of banks, which lend, not money, but promises to supply money they do not possess' is found in a book written by Professor Irving Fisher. Here are details of the book:
Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=UIEvAAAAMAAJ&dq=&pgis=1
In the above website of Google Books, type the following in the "Search in this book" field, and please use the quotation signs [" "]:
"Thus, our national circulating medium"
And then try a new search with:
"at the mercy of loan transactions of banks"
Both times, the result you'll see is only a only a partial result, but now you know that this phrase is on page 7 of the book mentioned above. Now, you can either go to a public library and read this book, or you can buy it online.
3- Finally, the video uses 'democracy' and the U.S. 'Constitution' to argue against bankers. As a Muslim, I have a certain attitude to democracy and any system that equates or favours the words of people with or over the words of Allah or His Messenger [peace be upon him]. Please read the thread "A true jewel in the world of books!" by clicking on the following link:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?p=74045#post74045
4- Some of you might believe that with the above comments, I'm actually defending Commercial Banks and loaning with interest (the modern term for 'usury'). And I mention here firmly that it is certainly not my intention to do so. I know that usury [also known as Riba in Arabic] is forbidden by Allah the Almighty, and that Commercial Banks are the modern day versions of this usury.
The following is an religious opinion published on the website supervised by Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid. It's Fatwa no. 23346, which is entitled "Ruling on depositing money in the bank, and interest".
The question was:
And the answer was:
Source: http://islamqa.com/en/ref/23346
The best reason to describe why I posted this video and why I wrote my comments is as follows:
When I first watched it, I wanted all my bothers in Islam to know what I have just learned. And I'm optimistic that with better research it could be established that there's still a lot of truth in the message of the above video. Having said that, it is very important that we Muslims must be sure of the accuracy of the information we present. Just because this video's message is against usury should not allow me or any other Muslim to be complacent about checking out the sources and making sure that they're all quoted correctly and in context.
So, a thorough research should be done on those quotations and one should try to find the original authentic sources of these quotations. But even if most these quotations turned out to be false, that will not make me change my mind about usury being forbidden, for in the end it is Allah the Almighty who said:
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 2:275-279]
And the words of Allah and/or His Messenger [peace be upon him] should be enough for any Muslim.
Best regards,
Bluegazer
