Need someone with good knowledge of Islam

S

Shamim56

Muslim Brother
Assalamualakum everyone!

I need someone with very good knowledge and maybe has a Msn

Well im debating this guy and he's been bothering me forever saying he has a "Disproof for God" so i decided to debate him. I just recently answered all of what he said and now he has gone offline for i dont know what reason.

Well heres basicly the debate so far from beginning to at the moment.
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Guy-

God Has Infinite Knowledge, All Powerful, and All Loving.
God Has the Power to convince me that He exists(All Powerful).
God has the Knowledge to Prove to me that he is Exists(All Knowing).
And then Desires to convince me of his existence. (All Loving)

So im not convinced so you can conclude that he is not All-powerful, does not have infinate knowledge, and is not all loving.(Astaghfirullah!!!-Thats just me in my head)
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Me-

God is not All Loving,As in he doesnt love everyone, Maybe in the Bible but i am talking from an Islamic Stance. God is Most Loving. Since you want to address everyone who believes in god, Your argument must be Fit For everyone

So wouldnt this break the whole disproof all together. Just by that one Fact? Why do you say "Has the Desire to convince Me", Your not God.
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Guy-
If any of the points do not apply to your god, than the argument doesn't apply to your god. It does not mean that the disproof is invalid, because as I've stated previously, it is not meant to disprove all concepts of god, but just the ones which have the attributes outlined within the argument. Maybe you can use it against your christian buddies or something.

Also, what do you mean by most loving? Your description of the love your god has does not seem to fit the definition of "most loving" as I would see it. I would have thought that most loving entailed being as loving as possible, or being more loving than humans can be. I'd appreciate it if you could make make yourself clear in that regard, because even a most-loving, or just a loving god, would still be subject to disproof #1 (just modify it by changing all loving to most loving)
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Me-

Oh, Sorry about that. You were directing it to the Christian god then.
No like when we say Most, It means no one can surpass it. So il give you an Example When Muslims say God , we usually translate it in arabic form to Allah as you may know. But many times we do call God other names that are mentioned in the Quran.

One of them Is Al-Majid (The most glorious)<--Exact meaning

So when we say Al-Majid, there is nothing more famous,renowned,eminent than God(Im simply just using synonyms by the way)

What i mean is that no creation can match up to him on whatever subject. We cant match him in this

But If your points is directed towards the Christian God, Then i request you write that somewhere.

Thanks
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Guy-

Right, that's exactly how I thought you would define it as (most loving, that is). In that case, simply replace "All loving" with "most loving" in disproof #1, and you have the same problem. All I would have to demonstrate, is that a human could act more loving in a situation (ie. whether to send someone to hell or not for being an atheist, or whatever) than god would or has in the past.
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Me-

All loving and Most loving are not the same, Because all loving means you must love everyone ad everything because thats the definition of it right.

The Statement you said is wrong. You are pointing to a situation of love like sending a person to hell like an athiest in your example. I am talking about Love as a whole, not just one thing. I wrote in my post that we mean that Most means That No one can match him like, In your school for example we can say someone can eat the most amount of hot dogs in a minute. No one can match him in your school. so now i am applying this just to god. So do you understand now?
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Guy-

Yes, and I understood it before. Let me use your example, so you can understand:

I believe that normal every day school students can easily eat more than the kid who supposedly eats the most, and if this is true, then that kid is not the one who eats the most.

For example, if I were god, I would not require that anyone love me or worship me in order to get to heaven (or to avoid going to hell). This is more loving than what your "most loving" god is willing to do.
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Me-
what i meant was for the example is to be permanent. When i say No can match him, i really do mean No one can match him. If it were otherwise, then i would have wrote until. When i say Love in just general, i meant Love is all sorts of aspects but God doesnt love necessarily what we love. It would be silly if we said God loves going to the circus more than us right. You are basing love in a situation like sending a person to hell, i personally dont think it has anything to do with love at all i actually think its just to serve justice. But again this is all opinions. You'l see my opinion in my next part i address. You are using opinions. People can debate whether it is love or not to send an athiest to hell in your previous example, because in the eyes of many it actually is right to do it. One of the attributes of God is that he is infinitely just, that no matter what you do, you cant get away with the smallest thing. My Opinion If i were God, and i saw my creation is disobeying me, going against all that i said, Doing everything i said not to do, failed to recognize my existence, Rebelled Against the idea of god, and then now probrobly at the point is whining that "I didnt know you were real! Give me another chance!" because it actually say in the Quran many people will be saying this.I believe in Justice. But then again everyone could debate this all day long. But im not here to discuss this. I will say it again, Most Loving means that No one can surpass it, Gods creation cannot surpass it. You are still pointing to a situation based on opinion.
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Guy-
Ah, I see. You're saying he puts his love aside when it comes to sentencing someone to hell, much like how a judge would put his emotions aside when sentencing a felon (not that a judge would ever consider atheism as a felony).
“Yes, God is all loving, but he is also infinitely just. He cannot reward evil or wrong doing.”

• Where is the justice in denying salvation to someone, solely because he is an atheist or believes in another God?
• What is evil about being an atheist? If atheism is truly evil, then God is entirely the cause of this evil, since he is the one who can annihilate atheism by making his existence apparent to all.
• This does not escape the fact that God is still omnibenevolent, meaning that he still has the desire to convince all individuals of his existence, irrespective of their wrong doings.
In regards to morality, your concept of god is exactly like that of a dictator. Not only do they require that certain laws be followed, but they also require that the head of the state be adamantly adhered to. It's a little disturbing that religion can make you think like this.

You also finish off your paragraph with another tautology, and at this point, it really boggles my mind as to how you don't see a problem with what you say. For example, If I were to tell you:

"Did you know that I'm infinitely loving?"

Would you take what I said at face value? Or would you ask something along the lines of:

"How do I know that you're infinitely loving?"

And if I answered:

"Because the definition of infinitely loving is to love everyone."

Would that satisfy you and be enough for you to believe that I was infinitely loving?
Let's say you present an example of me not being infinitely loving:

"Anti Theist, you're not infinitely loving, since you clearly have not been loving in situation X."

And in fashion to what you've previously said in response to me, if I were to respond with:

"Yeah, my love is different to yours. I feel love for different things."

Would you accept this too? Or would you correctly point out that if I describe myself as a "most loving" person, and if the definition of "most loving" implies that I am more loving than other people, and if I later exclaim that my love cannot be compared to other peoples love, then that would defeat the whole purpose of calling myself "most loving", rendering the use of the word nonsensical?
Would you then continue to inquire, and ask:

Most loving? Most loving compared to what?
Once again, this all depends on how you define "most loving". At the moment you fail to define it without going back on what you've defined.

If you were to stick to your guns and use the term "most loving" the same way as you've defined it (ie. more loving than anyone else), then you'd find that disproof #1 still applies. Just replace "omnibenevolence" with "most loving".
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me- Im still typing back to him but i need help on the part where he says that my morals are as i am a dictor. Can someone help me or go on msn?

Jazakallah Khair
 
aless

aless

Junior Member
:salam2:

i apologise in advance for my stupid comments,

usually atheists are angry at the fact that religious people believe that the atheist will go to hell, they don't understand why a loving entity would do something like inflict a punishment (in this case of eternal fire).

In my very modest opinion, with the example of the hot dogs you made it very clear. It is exactly like the example of Allah Taala being all-hearing.... if many people were talking to you at the same time, would you be able to understand to everyone? no. Allah Subhanu Wa Taala indeed is all hearing.
:SMILY139:
 
S

sunnyhayat

Still trying to increas Imaan
atheists

Presence of atheists itself proves presence ot allah(SAW) or god. They can not exist if there was no allah(SAW):salah:
 
H

hana*

Junior Member
i just dont understand how anyone with an intellect could believe that this entire universe came into being- as complex and advanced as it is- as a result of atoms crashing together spontaneously. how plausible is that?

if i tell you that a computer formed by itself and that all the wire connections, the buttons, the screen, the memory, hard drive etc came into being by scraps of metal colliding together, would you believe me? obviously it had a creator. so how then do they find it difficult to believe that this earth had a Creator?

God has given us evidence of His existance- we need not look any further than the human body to see how sophisticated it is and that it is a product of Intelligent Design. take the hand as an example, which can pick up soemthing 0.1mm thin. to this day, no robot created has been able to replicate the human hand to this degree.
 
arzafar

arzafar

Junior Member
there are two types of atheists.
1. Intellectual types, who have been misguided/didnt find true islam.
2. wannabe atheists, who are just ignorant and mostly arrogant.

there are good human beings in both categories and we must never judge anybody based on their beliefs alone.

ask him if he's done philosphy. has he read the works of Socrates, Aristotle, Spinoza, hume, kant, lebinez, newton, pascal, Godel. and exactly which ones?

if he doesnt know anything of the above then he is of type 2.
in which case you should ask him why is he an atheist?
if he gives you the line "religion is irrational/superstitious" or the like.
ask him what is rational?
he'll probably tell you "only that which can be empirically demonstrated is a rational position."
then tell him to get lost because he is irrational unless he can empirically demonstrate the proposition "only that which can be empirically demonstrated is a rational position." :SMILY139:

if he's of type 1 then give him this link
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cosmological-argument/

speak about the surah ikhlas which is the purest definition of Allah, we muslims hold as the only true deity worthy of worship. The cosmological argument satisfies all the characteristics in surah ikhlas. this proves that Allah is the only true god who created the universe.

if he starts bombarding you with rebutalls tell him that the bibliography on the page contains all the various arguments, counter arguments for and against the cosmological argument but the recomposed argument still holds. So tell him to get lost unless he can come up with something that exists without having been caused. (i.e. negate premise 1 of the argument)

if he continues, tell him your reason for being muslim. tell him that islam is rational and the greatest logician ever, Kurt Godel himself was a confirmed theist.

He believed firmly in an afterlife, stating: “I am convinced of the afterlife, independent of theology. If the world is rationally constructed, there must be an afterlife."
http://www.metanexus.net/magazine/tabid/68/id/9796/Default.aspx

He said about Islam: “I like Islam: it is a consistent [or consequential] idea of religion and open-minded."
[Hao Wang (1997), A logical journey: from Gödel to philosophy, The MIT Press, p. 148]

if he starts criticizing Islamic practice, then he has already lost the theological debate and now just the hate is coming through. politely tell him, that he is just a bigot judging your beliefs based on his own prejudices. finally invite him to islam, if you think appropriate. :SMILY139:

i hope this helps

:salam2:
 
S

Shamim56

Muslim Brother
Well he finnaly typed back
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Guy-
Ah, I see. You're saying he puts his love aside when it comes to sentencing someone to hell, much like how a judge would put his emotions aside when sentencing a felon (not that a judge would ever consider atheism as a felony).
“Yes, God is all loving, but he is also infinitely just. He cannot reward evil or wrong doing.”

• Where is the justice in denying salvation to someone, solely because he is an atheist or believes in another God?
• What is evil about being an atheist? If atheism is truly evil, then God is entirely the cause of this evil, since he is the one who can annihilate atheism by making his existence apparent to all.
• This does not escape the fact that God is still omnibenevolent, meaning that he still has the desire to convince all individuals of his existence, irrespective of their wrong doings.
In regards to morality, your concept of god is exactly like that of a dictator. Not only do they require that certain laws be followed, but they also require that the head of the state be adamantly adhered to. It's a little disturbing that religion can make you think like this.

You also finish off your paragraph with another tautology, and at this point, it really boggles my mind as to how you don't see a problem with what you say. For example, If I were to tell you:

"Did you know that I'm infinitely loving?"

Would you take what I said at face value? Or would you ask something along the lines of:

"How do I know that you're infinitely loving?"

And if I answered:

"Because the definition of infinitely loving is to love everyone."

Would that satisfy you and be enough for you to believe that I was infinitely loving?
Let's say you present an example of me not being infinitely loving:

"Anti Theist, you're not infinitely loving, since you clearly have not been loving in situation X."

And in fashion to what you've previously said in response to me, if I were to respond with:

"Yeah, my love is different to yours. I feel love for different things."

Would you accept this too? Or would you correctly point out that if I describe myself as a "most loving" person, and if the definition of "most loving" implies that I am more loving than other people, and if I later exclaim that my love cannot be compared to other peoples love, then that would defeat the whole purpose of calling myself "most loving", rendering the use of the word nonsensical?
Would you then continue to inquire, and ask:

Most loving? Most loving compared to what?
Once again, this all depends on how you define "most loving". At the moment you fail to define it without going back on what you've defined.

If you were to stick to your guns and use the term "most loving" the same way as you've defined it (ie. more loving than anyone else), then you'd find that disproof #1 still applies. Just replace "omnibenevolence" with "most loving".
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me- Im still typing back to him but i need help on the part where he says that my morals are as i am a dictor. Can someone help me or go on msn?
 
K

Kakorot

Junior Member
:wasalam:


God created us to worship Him alone (51:56). This is the purpose of life. God told us the purpose of life, He left many signs for us to ponder and reflect on from the Qur'aan and through His magnificent creation. I'm not knowledgable but maybe what I'm going to write is something you can share with the person whom you are debating with. God is Loving because He told us of hell fire and warned us of punishment in of the hereafter in the first place. If God was not Loving, then He would of let us do what we wish, without any warning or reminders, which would mean that at the end people will go to hell but where not informed that they would. He told us how to worship Him. How can God allow His creatures to follow their desires and at the same time allow them to go to heaven? Doesn't make sense, right?
Furthermore, how can one reject judgment day? Look around the world, what's happening? All the injustices, so many crimes are being committed. Look at what Hitler did. He killed 6 million jews, which included women, children the elderly etc. You think there is no justice? Look what happened in Bosnia back in 1993, where 8,000 Muslim men and boys were murdered because they were Muslim. And people don't believe that they are going to get judged. Think about it. People getting murderd, totured, raped and so many other awful things are happening. There are evil rich people who have everything they want and can get what they want, when they want it. They don't believe in God etc. And then you go to places like Africa and other poor countries, where babies are people are starving to death.
The athiest would ask where is God when all this is happening. The thing is that God gives respite and allows people to do what they want, as they have free will. Then the ultimate judgment happens on the day of resurrection. This is where the One who created us and everything will judge mankind and jinn of what they have done. And the people who were wronged will get justice. The poor people will enter paradise 500 years earlier before the rich people, according a a hadith. Hope what I wrote makes sense.

No matter what, some athiest are just going to ask you new questions constantly. They do it on purpose, once you answer a question, they throw another one at you. Your main duty is to spread the main message of Islam and Tawheed. Don't bother overburdening yourself with this person. If you feel as though it is beyond your capacity to debate him, then just delete this person and move on.
 
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