Proving Allahs and Islams existance

True_Sultan

A logical believer
Salam brothers and sisters,

I have a friend who states that Islam and Allah is man made, its saying that its illogical and how that whatever is unknown it is God. He is saying that God impedes our advancement, science is true and that religion is not true, we need to stop religion as it just trys to console our fears of death and the unknown..

So i totally disagree but can u please help me convince him? Im interested in your answers as well, i want to know more :) Also i told him about the Al Ghayb (beyond) and that the keys belong to him...he is saying im just putting it on God again...SO please clarify Thanks

Jakkaz Allah Khair to all who answer :)
 

arzafar

Junior Member
is he a 'new atheist'. seriously that biologist dawkins is trying to be a poor man's Nietzsche.

well ask him who invented the scientific method?
or algebra?
or algorithm?
or modern numerals?

and taking about logic. Kurt Godel is in-arguably the greatest logician of the last millennium and some argue he is the greatest logician ever. he described Islam in the following words.

"I like Islam: it is a consistent [or consequential] idea of religion and open-minded."

tell your friend to seek knowledge from intelligent people and not from some narrow-minded freaks.
 

mhamzah

Junior Member

Linkgx1

Junior Member
You really can't prove Allah exists, as only you and Muslims belive Allah and THERE IS NO PHYSICAL evidence. People will just be set in their ways. We'll all find out when we die.:frown:
 

Linkgx1

Junior Member
Are you not a muslim?
I am. But my point is that not everyone is. We have no physical evidence for some people. It's like us going back in time to Christopher Columbus when he's 15 and telling him the world is round. He'd probaly not belive. Gotta go, inshallah I'll talk to you more soon.
 

Abu Talib

Feeling low
I am. But my point is that not everyone is. We have no physical evidence for some people. It's like us going back in time to Christopher Columbus when he's 15 and telling him the world is round. He'd probaly not belive. Gotta go, inshallah I'll talk to you more soon.

There are ways to explain people and there are ample proofs to prove ALLAH's existence using Quran. Our job is to show the truth if they believe good for them if they not we can't force them. Alhumdulilah we have great scholars and dawah speakers who have answered this many times.

You can take a horse to the water but we can't force it to drink.
 

True_Sultan

A logical believer
There are ways to explain people and there are ample proofs to prove ALLAH's existence using Quran. Our job is to show the truth if they believe good for them if they not we can't force them. Alhumdulilah we have great scholars and dawah speakers who have answered this many times.

You can take a horse to the water but we can't force it to drink.

You really can't prove Allah exists, as only you and Muslims belive Allah and THERE IS NO PHYSICAL evidence. People will just be set in their ways. We'll all find out when we die.:frown:

and taking about logic. Kurt Godel is in-arguably the greatest logician of the last millennium and some argue he is the greatest logician ever. he described Islam in the following words.

"I like Islam: it is a consistent [or consequential] idea of religion and open-minded."

QUOTE]

One lecture that discuss Kurt Godel's two theorems and Islam

http://turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62546&highlight=gary+miller+nature+belief

is he a 'new atheist'. seriously that biologist dawkins is trying to be a poor man's Nietzsche.

well ask him who invented the scientific method?
or algebra?
or algorithm?
or modern numerals?

and taking about logic. Kurt Godel is in-arguably the greatest logician of the last millennium and some argue he is the greatest logician ever. he described Islam in the following words.

"I like Islam: it is a consistent [or consequential] idea of religion and open-minded."

tell your friend to seek knowledge from intelligent people and not from some narrow-minded freaks.

:salam2:

Please refer to this site or try showing your friend this site


www.quranandscience.com

Thanks for your help guys, but he is saying he doesn't believe the quran is from God, he is still saying that all the explanation is God. I told him about the numerical code of the quran (i.e. 19) and I also said that no, God created everything with a law and left it to work by itself, Science teaches you how thoughs Laws work..I also told him about my aspiration and the ghayb (beyond) but he still insist that im wrong >.>
 

Abu Talib

Feeling low
Thanks for your help guys, but he is saying he doesn't believe the quran is from God, he is still saying that all the explanation is God. I told him about the numerical code of the quran (i.e. 19) and I also said that no, God created everything with a law and left it to work by itself, Science teaches you how thoughs Laws work..I also told him about my aspiration and the ghayb (beyond) but he still insist that im wrong >.>

Brother please check this link http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/13804/science
InshALLAH keep trying to gather proofs and evidences and show him and give him time to think about it.
 

arzafar

Junior Member
why dont you invite him to join TTI :SMILY335:

i do agree that there is no "empirical evidence" to prove that Allah exists.
empirical evidence here strictly means, taking observations/measurments etc and concluding things or inductive reasoning.
frankly muslims should avoid argumentation (kalam) because unless you know what your saying you can go all wrong!
 

mhamzah

Junior Member
I am. But my point is that not everyone is. We have no physical evidence for some people. It's like us going back in time to Christopher Columbus when he's 15 and telling him the world is round. He'd probaly not belive. Gotta go, inshallah I'll talk to you more soon.

The rational arguments, those that would prove the existence of God - the rational arguments can usually be put into one of 3 categories:

The ontological,
The cosmological, and
The teleological arguments.

Without dealing with any of them right now I can tell you that they are all faulty. They don't prove the existence of God. The arguments were proven to be faulty 200 years ago atleast, if not 800 years ago, but they continue to be used. You will still see them printed in abundance - one of these 3 arguments. In the first place the argument which attempts to prove the existence of God is self-contradictory. God is said to be Absolute, which means He depends on nothing. Proving His existence means we make some more basic assumption and we build up to God, in which place God fails to be Absolute, He depends on our basic assumptions, you see. So it's a foolish kind of project in the first place. You assume you have an absolute, and then you go ahead and try to prove it, and you undo your definition. One produces a proof for a theorem which says it doesn't have a proof.

God is not a theorem based on some assumptions. Rather, God is a necessary item to complete our picture of reality. More accurately, I mean to say that, if we make the assumption that the Universe makes sense then we simultaneously acknowledge the singularity in the scheme which is the absolute - that which is independent of the total concept of the scheme. And there are two ways to seeing this. They are the results of the work done by the 20th Century mathematician going by the name of Kurt Godel, and you can look him up for an account. There are popular books on the subject; The Scientific American did an article on him a few years ago. In 1931 Kurt Godel came up with two theories that really shook the world of philosophy of logic and mathematics...

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67323&page=1

http://turntoislam.com/forum/showthr...+nature+belief
 

True_Sultan

A logical believer
The rational arguments, those that would prove the existence of God - the rational arguments can usually be put into one of 3 categories:

The ontological,
The cosmological, and
The teleological arguments.

Without dealing with any of them right now I can tell you that they are all faulty. They don't prove the existence of God. The arguments were proven to be faulty 200 years ago atleast, if not 800 years ago, but they continue to be used. You will still see them printed in abundance - one of these 3 arguments. In the first place the argument which attempts to prove the existence of God is self-contradictory. God is said to be Absolute, which means He depends on nothing. Proving His existence means we make some more basic assumption and we build up to God, in which place God fails to be Absolute, He depends on our basic assumptions, you see. So it's a foolish kind of project in the first place. You assume you have an absolute, and then you go ahead and try to prove it, and you undo your definition. One produces a proof for a theorem which says it doesn't have a proof.

God is not a theorem based on some assumptions. Rather, God is a necessary item to complete our picture of reality. More accurately, I mean to say that, if we make the assumption that the Universe makes sense then we simultaneously acknowledge the singularity in the scheme which is the absolute - that which is independent of the total concept of the scheme. And there are two ways to seeing this. They are the results of the work done by the 20th Century mathematician going by the name of Kurt Godel, and you can look him up for an account. There are popular books on the subject; The Scientific American did an article on him a few years ago. In 1931 Kurt Godel came up with two theories that really shook the world of philosophy of logic and mathematics...

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67323&page=1

http://turntoislam.com/forum/showthr...+nature+belief

Salam brother, i totally agree with your logic. I love logic :) I read your whole essay post about belief. I totally agree, this is what i wanted. Does anybody have anything more? I understand brother that Islam ia about submission to Allah the absolute will as the absolute is infinite and beyond and none can change it. As believing or trusting on something relative can lead to alot of things as its everchanging...Please brothers and sisters..share more. Also brother, what about the keys to the ghayb the unseen treasure? In Ayat 59 Surah 6? Are theses keys infinte and absolute like Allah? Are they the secret to infinte knoweldge and power? Keys to the capacity of creation/destruction..keys to the beyond *shudders*?

Also your second link don't work...And brothers and sisters keep info coming..Im intriguiged :)

Jakkaz Allah Khair :)
 

Abu Talib

Feeling low
Salam brother, i totally agree with your logic. I love logic :) I read your whole essay post about belief. I totally agree, this is what i wanted. Does anybody have anything more? I understand brother that Islam ia about submission to Allah the absolute will as the absolute is infinite and beyond and none can change it. As believing or trusting on something relative can lead to alot of things as its everchanging...Please brothers and sisters..share more. Also brother, what about the keys to the ghayb the unseen treasure? In Ayat 59 Surah 6? Are theses keys infinte and absolute like Allah? Are they the secret to infinte knoweldge and power? Keys to the capacity of creation/destruction..keys to the beyond *shudders*?

Also your second link don't work...And brothers and sisters keep info coming..Im intriguiged :)

Jakkaz Allah Khair :)

Lol brother I've been seeing you post your always interested in the key to the ghayb? Why don't you ask a scholar he can give you a best answer in a explanatory way
 

Linkgx1

Junior Member
The rational arguments, those that would prove the existence of God - the rational arguments can usually be put into one of 3 categories:

The ontological,
The cosmological, and
The teleological arguments.

Without dealing with any of them right now I can tell you that they are all faulty. They don't prove the existence of God. The arguments were proven to be faulty 200 years ago atleast, if not 800 years ago, but they continue to be used. You will still see them printed in abundance - one of these 3 arguments. In the first place the argument which attempts to prove the existence of God is self-contradictory. God is said to be Absolute, which means He depends on nothing. Proving His existence means we make some more basic assumption and we build up to God, in which place God fails to be Absolute, He depends on our basic assumptions, you see. So it's a foolish kind of project in the first place. You assume you have an absolute, and then you go ahead and try to prove it, and you undo your definition. One produces a proof for a theorem which says it doesn't have a proof.

God is not a theorem based on some assumptions. Rather, God is a necessary item to complete our picture of reality. More accurately, I mean to say that, if we make the assumption that the Universe makes sense then we simultaneously acknowledge the singularity in the scheme which is the absolute - that which is independent of the total concept of the scheme. And there are two ways to seeing this. They are the results of the work done by the 20th Century mathematician going by the name of Kurt Godel, and you can look him up for an account. There are popular books on the subject; The Scientific American did an article on him a few years ago. In 1931 Kurt Godel came up with two theories that really shook the world of philosophy of logic and mathematics...

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67323&page=1

http://turntoislam.com/forum/showthr...+nature+belief
Did you take a debate class? I took a civics class and found the concept of arguments. I rember one argument where some says if God can do anything, then can he make an object so large he can't lift it? Well, based on the facts given, the object doesn't exist.
 

BADTASTEBEARS

Fear Allah
Akhi slap your friend and ask him if pain exists. If yes then why cant we see 'pain'. Its a feeling. And we feel Allah through our faith.
 

arzafar

Junior Member
Did you take a debate class? I took a civics class and found the concept of arguments. I rember one argument where some says if God can do anything, then can he make an object so large he can't lift it? Well, based on the facts given, the object doesn't exist.

what a silly argument that is.
God is one who can do godly things or has godly attributes.
who defines what is godly and not? God Himself

define the ground rules before an argument otherwise you will always go wrong. but this thread should be closed. it's tilting towards kalam.
 

Abu Talib

Feeling low
what a silly argument that is.
God is one who can do godly things or has godly attributes.
who defines what is godly and not? God Himself

define the ground rules before an argument otherwise you will always go wrong. but this thread should be closed. it's tilting towards kalam.

I agree with you brother, I think we should not think too much about ALLAH's existence the Shaytaan would exploit the situation.

If one can read the Quran with tafseer that's enough to understand the existence of ALLAH.
 
Top