Sunni marrying Shia (mature responses only, plz)

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Gupta

Member
Wa-alaykum-us-salaam,

In reference to the actual issue, I am not a person of knowledge so do not want to appear as giving out rulings but the Qur'an says:

"And do not marry Al-Mushrikaat (idolatresses) till they believe (worship Allah Alone)"

(2: 221)

So if a person was considering marrying a Shi'ah, and their belief went beyond the above ayah, then I am sure you can determine the rest. I don't fully know the different types of Shi'ah, but similarly to the actual People of the Book, I wonder if there are any Shi'ah's left who only preferred Ali (radiyAllahu anh) as the third caliph instead of Uthman (radiyAllahu anh) instead of what the Shi'ah (Rafidi in this instance from my understanding) belief has developed into. I am guessing here but I assume this where the ruling which forbids such a marriage stems from because of incompatibility in core belief.

The other point regarding the basis/authority of scholarly rulings, then, after the Qur'an and Sunnah, we refer to the people of knowledge, being the scholars but I don't think (from my limited knowledge) this is an issue where you can say there is scholarly dispute or that it is the opinion of one scholar only, because the Qur'an clearly states, do not marry idolatresses, and like I alluded to previously, I guess, this is where the ruling stemmed from.

But the Shia I communicated with deny any god other than Allah. Just as there are Christians who deny the claim that Jesus is anything other than a prophet (example: Jehovah's Witness)

I don't think many people here studied world religions in college...thus it explains the limited knowledge on such matter. I thought Allah commanded us to learn???
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
Studying history of how different sects started explains what is shiaism . Islam is based on aqeeda which our prophet salla Allah alaihi wa sallam taught, this aqeeda is based on pure Monotheism . Any one who change , add or reject what our prophet Allah alaihi wa taught is doing a terrible mistake , any deviation from the path of our prophet salla Allah alaihi wa sallam is a grave mistake . We should seek pure knowledge and follow his steps salla Allah alaihi wa sallam.
 

ShahnazZ

Striving2BeAStranger
Isn't it shocking how inflexible we can be to the minorities within our own religion?

You're exhibiting this inflexibility yourself. I asked you before and you ignored the question and I'm asking you again:

What is your definition of a "Wahhabi"?

Shias clearly are not the only minorities people are "inflexible" toward.
 

ditta

Alhamdu'Lillaah
Staff member
As-salaamu'alaykum,

Just to clarify something I forgot to make clear. From what I have read, Khadeejah is the best of all women based on the fact that the Prophet :saw: said Jibreel conveyed salaam to her from her Lord, she was the best of this Ummah, and the best of the women in paradise. I can appreciate there is a difference of opinion on this although in the order I mentioned above is their rank (Khadeejah, Faatimah, and A'ishah). This is briefly mentioned in Ali's biography which is where I read it from. Allah knows best.

Gupta, I don't think you have studied history (look at how Shi'iaism came into being, how it developed into what it is today, the Rafidi's, the Ismailis at the time of Salah ad-Deen,). It is easy to take make sweeping judgements, just like you did (and I find it patronising when someone does this, I ask forgiveness if I have ever made someone else feel this way). What makes the person a Shi'ah then? If they do not call upon the family of the Prophet :saw: for their needs (i.e., as intermediaries), does it mean they exaggerate Ali's (radiyAllahu anh) status, or that Ali should have been the first caliph? If it is not Rafidi belief, is it something less extreme, like acknowledging the status of Abu Bakr and Umar, but disputing with regards to Uthman, and Ali? Do they disbelieve in portions of the Qur'aan, or acknowledge that it is true in its entirety? And what about Taqiyyah?

Regarding the other portion well one can say in a similar vain, what are the Shi'ahs doing? Iran, Hizbullah, and Assad's Syria (dwindling now) talking willy nilly (i.e., in a random manner) that one will do this to the Zionists, will look out for Palestine/the Muslims etc. But we have not seen anything from them. Just empty rhetoric. Even I can do that. I remember an old adage, and it goes something like, "it is better that someone expresses their treachery openly rather than hiding it behind layers of deceit". This might not be an actual saying, I am paraphrasing from what I remember. I recall reading, and I will try to find it exactly to post the full account, of how a person of knowledge was describing a way of coming to an agreement with a Shi'ah person of knowledge. I think some form of agreement was reached although what happened was the same Shi'ah then wrote in a disparaging way regarding Abu Hurayrah (radiyAllahu anh) as a narrator of hadith. Therefore, saying one thing but then doing something else.

This thread has really gone beyond what was originally asked which I think has been answered. Now it is entering a stage of decline I think. If it continues in this manner I think there is no other option but to close it.
 

tic_tac_toe

Junior Member
Assalaam alaikum,

A Shia can do hajj. There is no fatawa for that.

Brother Tic Tac Toe....even if I am dead wrong help me out here. Do you not agree that Ali (ra) and Fatima belong to a special bond that even the Mother of the Believers, Ayisa does not hold. The relationship between the Prophet, swas, and Fatima was very intimate and special. Did he, swas, not love his daughter and she love him. We do not celebrate this whatsoever here. Limit this to TTI. Call me lacking in knowledge but there are so few threads on the wisdom of the words of Fatima.

Brother, yes, what you have done wrong is you choose what you wish to respond to and ignore the rest. You know I am correct about a fatawa. You know that is the absolute truth. A fatawa is not absolute.

Let us say a person is considering Islam. Are we being fair to this person? Are we being honest with this person. There are many within the Sunni who do acknowledge Ali and Fatima equally there are some Sunni's who do not. I wonder why?

And I stand by what I said. You know it to be true...we get an opinion from a scholar..sometimes that is formalized into what is called a fatawa..but a fatawa is not absolute. The scholars have told us when in doubt about their interpretations to go to other scholars and discard what they have written. They do not wish to be accountable for error and the limitations of human egos.

Are you going to prevent people from going to hajj? Hey, only Muslims go to hajj.

A fatawa is an opinion. And you know that is the truth of the matter. Muslims go to hajj.


Isn't it shocking how inflexible we can be to the minorities within our own religion? My father, for instance, has this animosity towards Shia that was formed and molded by the "religious" talk shows on Saudi TV. He has never met a Shia nor has he ever read Shia literature, yet he is very comfortable accusing them of "spitting on Umar" and "conspiring to convert Sunnis to Shiism"
I on the other hand, read shia literature and noticed that all of the accusations are false. We've been bombing their mosques, burning their tombs, belittling them, accusing them of false allegations. All for what?

I say this with kindness and respect, tic_tac_toe: you are no different than my father. You let a small group of men with media and/or financial power tell you how to think. And this is no ordinary small group of men; this small group is the same group that encourages young, naive and gullible muslim boys to strap explosives around their waist and charge at innocent civilians.

To what ends? *shaking my head*

Some accuse them of "working with Jews,' But tell me, which nations harbor Israeli and American military bases? Sunni. Jordan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Turkey, Jordan, Qatar, and many more. I'm yet to hear Saudi clerics denouncing any of this. Just a few weeks ago, it was discovered that there exists an American drone base inside Saudi land. Muslim land. Killing muslims with Saudi permission. And Shia are the evil ones?

You will never learn.
:salam2:

I will continue to assume that both of you Sisters have a reasonable proficiency in reading English, are in a good state of mental and physical health, not biased and not in an elevated emotional state because the information about to be conveyed is done in easy plain simple to read English and as your brother I am here to answer your questions to the best of my ability provided that you stick to the subject.

The Wahabi Myth:

Nazim Al-Haqqani is one of the most left-wing liberal (Wahabi-hating Sufi) there is on the planet. There is free-mixing in his gatherings, women kiss his hands and he even continues to enjoy good relationship with George Bush and Tony Blair. He even met Pope Bendict when the Mufti of his nation (cyprus) refused to do so. You have to be deranged to class him a "Wahabi" and this is what he says about Shias

Nuh Ha Meem Keller is an American Sufi vehemently Anti-Wahabi and resides in Jordan and this is what he has to say about Shias


Mufti Ibn Adam is a British Mufti, also Sufi and not Wahabi and in fact refutes them all the time and this is his Fatwa on marriage with Shia being invalid!

I am stopping at 3 references and not because I can't provide anymore simply because if you two Sisters are emotionally balanced you will get the picture.

Disagreement about Shias is about Aqeedah (Creed, fundamentals of Faith):

The primary disagreement is not of a physical nature but of Aqeedah (i.e. Creed, fundamentals of Faith) this means that it is a matter within the heart (internal) that there is no X-Ray, MRI which can detect it.

Let me elaborate further with 3 separate examples.

Firstly imagine we take Sister Gupta and someone who is a Hindu from the same ethnicity, very similar physical features and dress them up the same and ask the Audience to guess who is Muslim and who is not, can they accurately guess? Probably not because Aqeedah (i.e. Creed, fundamentals of Faith) is a matter of the heart (internal) and not a stamp on the forehead or an identification mark which can be recognized.

Secondly, all Muslims (Shia & Sunnees) consider Qadyanees to be Non-Muslims by consensus and there is ZERO difference of opinion on the issue and it is based on Aqeedah (i.e. Creed, fundamentals of Faith) is a matter of the heart (internal) otherwise a Qadiyani looks no different then any other Indian/Pakistani or Arab. Do you have to physically meet a Qadiyani and have a discussion to ascertain his/her Kuf'r? And would he/she look any different which you will be able to identify (may be horns on the head or tail in the back) to apply the Fatwa? So why does your dad needs to meet a Shia to apply the Fatwa?

Thirdly, click to see the picture of monsignor William Lynn and by looking at this picture does he look like a sex offender? Would meeting him would have helped you identify what lurks in his heart?

Again, if you two Sisters are emotionally balanced you will get the picture that matters of heart are internal and drive the actions of people (outwardly) and that's why it is not advised to marry a Shia because your future relationship with :Allah: depends on your spouse who will be driven by internal Aqeedah (i.e. Creed, fundamentals of Faith)

But Shias are so nice and what about minority rights?

There are plenty of nice Non-Muslims, so what? What difference does them being nice make on issues of Aqeedah (i.e. Creed, fundamentals of Faith)? They are Non-Muslims and you are Muslims, whats your point? We don't disrespect, dishonor, abuse people call for violence but we do make a distinction by means of Aqeedah (i.e. Creed, fundamentals of Faith).

Again, if you two Sisters are emotionally balanced you will get the picture. If you are so far gone and so emotionally damaged that you can only distinguish people based on "how nice they are" then you can't be helped!

Disagreement between Fatwaas?

Yes Scholars in Islam can disagree thus their Fatwaas may disagree but in this case almost majority of Authentic Islamic Scholars (classical or contemporary) give the opinion that its either Haram or majorly disliked to marry a Shia and I have chosen my words very carefully by stating Authentic Islamic Scholars and if you want to disagree then disagree with facts and quote me some Authentic Islamic (classical or contemporary) which don't frown upon Shia/Sunni marriage but don't be absurd and quote TTI or your dad's behavior or his lack of contact with Shia as references.

Feel free to ask questions and state your case but do so coherently.

:wasalam:
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam alaikum,


The thread needs to be closed as some brothers have lost their ability to discuss the issue without becoming emotional. The tone is not good for readers as it renders a misconception that Muslim men do not have the ability to have a discussion with women.
 

tic_tac_toe

Junior Member
Assalaam alaikum,


The thread needs to be closed as some brothers have lost their ability to discuss the issue without becoming emotional. The tone is not good for readers as it renders a misconception that Muslim men do not have the ability to have a discussion with women.

:salam2: Sister,

You can accuse people of not showing respect to the son-in-law of Prophet Muhammad :saw: and not provide any proof.

You can accuse people of being childish and simply base it on your opinion.

You can accuse people of being angry and again simply your opinion.

Your opinion must be accepted but a Fatwa can be put aside as someone's unworthy opinion.

And now the thread must be closed because despite repeated requests you cannot bring yourself up to have a "mature" conversation and back yourself and are going into a fit because others simply won't accept your word?

You were told to apologies for hurting people's feeling by making a ludicrous suggestion and accusing others of showing respect to the son-in-law of Prophet Muhammad :saw:, here it is:

Aapa,

We all make mistakes and if you have made a mistake by accusing Sunni Muslims of degrading, dishonoring and disparaging Sayyidina Ali (RA) or demeaning his worth please apologize for your remarks and move on.

I wasn't angry and still not angry and I could continue this discussion forever but would like to point out to you as your brother that your remarks are pretty insulting for any Muslim to take.

And this is you being on a high horse:

Assalaam alaikum,

I did not go to the extreme brother. I pointed out that I have noticed on many Sunni forums, videos, books that there seems to be avoidance when the subject of Ali ( ra) comes up.

Why I have to apologize I do not know. Thus, I can not apologize for something I have not done. I suggested we have more threads on him, that is all I have done. Why would I apologize for that.

You should apologise for slander and not for having more threads as this is what you said:

Assalaam alaikum,

Brother,

Ali is the Companion of the Prophet, The cousin of the Prophet, the son in law of the Prophet, and one of the Four Defenders of the Faith. Yet, I see that Sunni Muslims neglect his worth. I wonder why?

Forgive me if this should be the subject of another thread.

Nearly 2 days of conversation and you still don't know what you have said and the implications of it.
 

Idris16

Junior Member
Nearly 2 days of conversation and you still don't know what you have said and the implications of it.
:salam2: Why do you keep replying to her posts? I have been on TTI for years and I don't see Aapa taking back the wrong things she say. What you said is correct:

You can accuse people of being childish and simply base it on your opinion.

You can accuse people of being angry and again simply your opinion.

Your opinion must be accepted but a Fatwa can be put aside as someone's unworthy opinion.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam alaikum,

Idris...don't start again..you just got back after the number you pulled. You are in dire need of being humble. You had no right to do what you did. I fear for the other sisters on this site. You placed me in the way of danger. So back off son. I mean it back off. I am not playing with you. My words are serious. Your actions have been on the verge on criminal. And I mean criminal. Back off.



No matter what you say...a fatawa is an opinion. Your disparaging remarks do not in anyway upset me. Your calling me names reduces your intellect and reasoning ability.

The implications of what I have said are simple. My faith is not ruled by the political atmosphere. In nearly two days of conversation you have been unable to disagree that a fatawa is a ruling on a specific issue. Our scholars guide us to answers as best they can and they have written that if there is one word that is not in accordance with the Way of the Prophet, swas, than we are to discard their opinions.

I have never asked that my opinion be accepted....as always I write to provide a larger perspective. There is a line between what is disliked and what is forbidden. A Shia is a Muslim who has the obligation of hajj. End of subject.
 

tic_tac_toe

Junior Member
Assalaam alaikum,

Idris...don't start again..you just got back after the number you pulled. You are in dire need of being humble. You had no right to do what you did. I fear for the other sisters on this site. You placed me in the way of danger. So back off son. I mean it back off. I am not playing with you. My words are serious. Your actions have been on the verge on criminal. And I mean criminal. Back off.



No matter what you say...a fatawa is an opinion. Your disparaging remarks do not in anyway upset me. Your calling me names reduces your intellect and reasoning ability.

The implications of what I have said are simple. My faith is not ruled by the political atmosphere. In nearly two days of conversation you have been unable to disagree that a fatawa is a ruling on a specific issue. Our scholars guide us to answers as best they can and they have written that if there is one word that is not in accordance with the Way of the Prophet, swas, than we are to discard their opinions.

I have never asked that my opinion be accepted....as always I write to provide a larger perspective. There is a line between what is disliked and what is forbidden. A Shia is a Muslim who has the obligation of hajj. End of subject.

And whole world will back off by a simple admission on your part stating that you don't really care about what is being said and from which verse and which Hadeeth it is being proven from and you won't agree to anything because your mind is fixated. And also don't ask to be educated and don't ask for an Academic mature discussion if you are going to simply quote TTI search as your reference and figments of your imagination as proof.

The simple point which you are not grasping is marriage is a path to paradise and only a deluded person would deliberately choose a partner whose Aqeedah (Creed) is at odds with their own and this has nothing to do Hajj or anything else. A person can decline a person in marriage who may well be suitable for someone else.

What has been proven in this thread is that there are serious apprehensions about the Shia from "Wahabi and Non-Wahabi" sources and to this point you are unable to provide a single credible Fatwa which agrees with a Sunni marrying a Shia without dislike and strong dissuasion and discouragement from such an action.

Even if Fatwa is an opinion produce something from classical Sunni texts which proves your point!

All we have is your opinion and forgive us if we cast it aside.
 

Idris16

Junior Member
What has been proven in this thread is that there are serious apprehensions about the Shia from "Wahabi and Non-Wahabi" sources and to this point you are unable to provide a single credible Fatwa which agrees with a Sunni marrying a Shia without dislike and strong dissuasion and discouragement from such an action.
Now we have Shia Source from the known Shiite-Rafidite Sistani:

Q9) Can a Shi'i girl marry a Sunni boy?

A9) If there is a fear of being misled, it is not permissible.


Q12) Can a Sayyid marry Sunni or Wahabi?

A12) If there is a fear that he\she might be misled, it is not permissible.


Q17) We are a Shia family. A Sunni gentleman has asked for my sister’s hand in marriage. He is a very good and descent man. He is a good Muslim. We would like to know if there is anything in the Shia faith that prevents such a marriage. (That makes it haram)?? Plus is it ok if a Sunni Sheikh performs the wedding contract?? Is it ok if a Shia Sheikh performs the contract?

A17) There is no objection with regards to Sunni Sheikh’s reading of the contract. But it is not permissible for a Shia girl to marry a Sunni man, if she fears being misled by him.
 

hayat84

I'm not what you believe
I've read some of the posts,maybe you'll start hating my presence here.I only wish to be a peacemaker between the ones who want to get married for the sake of Allah.they both believe to Allah,what's wrong if they say to "belong" to one sect instead of another one?They are both muslims!put it in your mind,by myself one should follow what Quran says.Islam means "submission"but it brings in itself the deeper meaning of "peace".if one continue to say who's right and who's wrong,it's an infinite discussion which leads to nothing,but hateness.from the moment both Shi'a,Sunni,Catholich,Jew,Atheist say the Shahada they all are muslims.those adding names upon each member who says to be this or that is useless for the sake of Allah.if one wants to enjoy the Light,he should firstly cleanse his eyes
 

ditta

Alhamdu'Lillaah
Staff member
I've read some of the posts,maybe you'll start hating my presence here.I only wish to be a peacemaker between the ones who want to get married for the sake of Allah.they both believe to Allah,what's wrong if they say to "belong" to one sect instead of another one?They are both muslims!put it in your mind,by myself one should follow what Quran says.Islam means "submission"but it brings in itself the deeper meaning of "peace".if one continue to say who's right and who's wrong,it's an infinite discussion which leads to nothing,but hateness.from the moment both Shi'a,Sunni,Catholich,Jew,Atheist say the Shahada they all are muslims.those adding names upon each member who says to be this or that is useless for the sake of Allah.if one wants to enjoy the Light,he should firstly cleanse his eyes

As-salaamu'alaykum,

Sister hayat (not all of this post is directed at you), I am speaking generally here, not specific to this thread/question. If a person believes something in relation to creed that is contrary to what is in the Qur'an, or what the Prophet :saw: said, I am talking about something that is black and white, i.e., that we call upon only Allah, we don't ask the dead or those alive as intermediaries, or that Jesus (aalayhis-salaam) was the son of God, etc., then how can it be possible/lawful that a Muslim who believes that only Allah is worthy of being worshipped, and he is greater than having any offspring, to marry the former type of person? Shahadah is one thing, but doing/believing in something that goes against is another. Like believing in Allah, but then setting up partners with Him. Is such a person a Muslim? (I think this should be left as it is going against the thread).

Allah says:

"And do not marry Al-Mushrikaat (idolatresses) till they believe (worship Allah Alone)"

(2: 221)

Therefore if it is apparent that someone believes something that is contrary to the aspect above for instance, do you think it is lawful to marry that person? The fact is, this has not been addressed. This is not a ruling. This is the Qur'aan.

I was reading how Abdullah ibn Umar (radiyAllahu anh) forbade the marriage to a Christian if she believes that Jesus is the son of God (this ruling clearly stems from the above aayah, does it not?)

Shi'ah beliefs are clear, and from my understanding vary in extremes. If like sister Gupta said, a person who professes to be Shi'ah but rejects the beliefs I mentioned in my post, then why is such a person labelling themselves as Shi'ah then? Its like going to the Masjid of the mushrikeen, but saying, I am against all of these practices, but I go anyway. Its illogical.

Regardless, if a person wants to pursue such a marriage, then they will find a way but please do not say that this is something that is considered acceptable when it clearly is not. I am speaking generally. This opinion has been professed by some members without any authority or support for their claim, just a personal opinion. Do you say it is permissible even if the person's beliefs were contrary to what Allah said?

I think some of the posts have gone beyond what is deemed acceptable. So please tone it down. However the complete lack of acknowledgement on some issues is disrespectful.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam alaikum,

Please ban Idris. He is at it again. I will contact the police and I am not playing. He is at it again. This is stalking and there are laws against it. I will push for them. This is not a game.

Idris, you are a coward. You are a shameful little pest. You are a man with major masculine parts missing
You little rat. You little piece of fecal matter. You will never be a man...hide..that is all you can do...
 

ditta

Alhamdu'Lillaah
Staff member
As-salaamu'alaykum,

This thread is now closed because it has turned into throwing insults.

(Edit: I have edited the initial portion that I posted regarding Idris16. I was wrong in this, and he has overstepped the mark again. I will let the other moderators know about this, and it will be dealt with just to determine what will happen).

The issue that was present was addressed to an extent, and none of the questions/points were answered adequately. Ultimately, if a person wants to marry someone with questionable fundamental beliefs then they can, but please do not go around stating that it is acceptable/lawful/permissible when it clearly is not. Sister Aapa, again with respect, you never really addressed the portion that I posted, which was not a ruling rather what the Qur'aan says. On this issue, I think any sane person can see, that if a person's belief is contrary to that of Islamic monotheism, how can it be possible/deemed acceptable to marry such a person.

I include myself in this, and I suggest we all reflect on the conduct, manner of speech, and approach shown in this thread. I think it is a damning indictment of our lack of knowledge, and respect for those with more knowledge in matters pertaining to the religion. I don't mean take without some analysis (although to what degree we can engage in that is debatable), but the lack of ability to back down on a particular stance/one's own opinion despite the reasoning put forward, and acknowledging one's own shortcomings pertaining to knowledge, for the lack of a better word, is rather arrogant, or disrespectful. I would appreciate if this discussion ended here because I think it is enough.

(Footnote not really linked to the above)

Just to point out, I am someone that is striving to learn from what I have. I acknowledge I am ignorant on many matters that requires intricate knowledge of certain Sciences. I try to acknowledge when I am wrong, and I apologise now if I say things that I am not qualified to or that is incorrect. I think we need to learn to be a little humble, and know our place on certain issues on occasions.
 
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