Question: The Injil.

[Cariad]

Hello, I would like to ask a question please. I wish to understand what you as muslims mean by the Injil, what is it and what is its provenance?

From what I have found out so far is conflicting information, some say it is the New Testament or bits of it, others say it is a missing book written by Yeshua or a gospel given to Yeshua. It is very confusing. I have looked in the Quran for Yeshua but you have Issa which is not the same characteristics.

Thanking anyone in advance for taking the time to respond to this request.

Peace. X

 

[Tabassum07]

Hi,

Maybe these answers might help you out:

Does the original Gospel that was in Aramaic exist nowadays, and where is it?


Praise be to Allah.

Firstly:
Researchers and specialists in the study of religion and ancient history differ concerning the language spoken by the Messenger ‘Isa ibn Maryam (Jesus son of Mary, peace be upon him).
Researchers are unanimously agreed that Palestine at the time of ‘Isa was a mosaic, and that its inhabitants were a mix from every nation and language, and they spoke, to varying degrees, Hebrew and Aramaic in different dialects, as well as Greek and Latin.
But differences arose among them when they tried to define the geographical borders of each of these languages, and when they wanted to find out the distinguishing features of these languages and determine to what extent they were influenced by one another.
When we read of the life of Jesus (peace be upon him) in the four Gospels, we find that he addressed different groups of people. He addressed the masses in various cities and desert areas, and he addressed the members of the supreme council (Sanhedrin) and the teachers of the Law, and those who were in charge of the Temple and running the religious affairs of the Jews. He also addressed the Roman governor of Palestine whose language was Latin.
Among the Aramaic words attributed to the Messiah (peace be upon him) in the Gospels are:
“ ‘Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?’—which means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” (Matthew 27:46)
“He took her by the hand and said to her, ‘Talitha koum!’ (which means, ‘Little girl, I say to you, get up!’” (Mark 5:41)
“Jesus said to her, ‘Mary.’ She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, ‘Rabboni!’ (which means Teacher).” (John 20:16)
It seems that the discussion was in their language, but because of these different reports there was a strong difference of opinion among the scholars and researchers as to the language of the Messiah (peace be upon him).
Ibn Taymiyah and Ibn al-Qayyim were of the view that he did not speak any language other than Hebrew. Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Jawab al-Saheeh:
The Messiah was a Hebrew and did not speak anything but Hebrew. End quote.
And he said: The one who says that the language of the Messiah was Aramaic or Greek is mistaken. End quote.
Some of them were of the view that all the evidence shows that most of the speech of ‘Isa (peace be upon him) was in Aramaic, which was the most widely spoken language of the people. He also spoke Hebrew, the language of the Old Testament, to a lesser degree, and it seems that he was educated in Latin and Greek.
See: Lughat al-Maseeh ‘Isa ibn Maryam by Dr. ‘Abd al-‘Azeez Shahbar, published in the book Lughaat al-Rusul.
Secondly:
The Muslims are all obliged to believe in the Gospel (Injil) that Allah revealed to His Prophet Jesus the Messiah (peace be upon him). The one who denies this is a kafir (disbeliever) according to scholarly consensus.
Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And in their footsteps, We sent ‘Isa, son of Maryam, confirming the Tawrat that had come before him, and We gave him the Injil, in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tawrat that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqoon (the pious).” [5:46]
Our belief in the Gospel dictates that we should also believe that it exists and that it was revealed completely, and we believe that everything that he brought from Allah was true.
But there is nothing in Islam to tell us whether this Gospel was written and compiled at the time of ‘Isa (peace be upon him) or who wrote it, or who preserved it and disseminated it, or whether the Messiah taught it to the people orally or whether the disciples transmitted it and who believed in it, or whether some of it was written down and some was not. These are questions that we cannot answer for certain nowadays, rather some researchers deny that there was even a true Gospel that was compiled in the form of a book; rather it was just words that were transmitted.
The great scholar al-Tahir ibn ‘Ashoor says in al-Tahreer wa’l-Tanweer, commenting on the tafsir of Surat Al ‘Imran:
With regard to the Gospel, this is the name of the revelation that was sent to ‘Isa (peace be upon him) and was compiled by his companions. End quote.
Shaykh Ahmad Deedat (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
We believe sincerely that everything that ‘Isa (peace be upon him) said was revelation from Allah, and that it was the Gospel and glad tidings for the Children of Israel. But throughout his life, ‘Isa did not write a single word, and he did not order anyone to write anything. Hal al-Kitab al-Muqaddas Kalimat Allah (Is the Bible God’s Word?).
But it seems that the Messiah (peace be upon him) knew how to read and write. This may be understood from the words of Allah (interpretation of the meaning):
“And He (Allah) will teach him [‘Isa] the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom), (and) the Tawrat and the Injil.” [Al ‘Imran 3:48]
Ibn Kathir (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
It seems that what is meant by Book here is writing. Tafsir al-Quran il-‘Azeem.
But we do not have any evidence that the revelation was written down at the time of ‘Isa (peace be upon him). The fact that the Gospel is called “a Book” in the Holy Quran does not indicate that it was written down on pages at the time it was revealed. The fact that it is called a Book only refers to that which is with Allah in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz (the Preserved Tablet), or that it was something that could be written. This also applies to the Holy Quran, as Allah calls it a Book. Rather it was transmitted verbally as well as being written down randomly on skins and parchments. In fact it was not a compiled Book until the time of Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allah be pleased with him). Indeed, Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)) a message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: ‘This is nothing but obvious magic!’” [6:7]
al-Tahir ibn ‘Ashoor said in his commentary on Surat Maryam:: 30:
The Scripture refers to the law which is usually written lest it be subject to change. The word Scripture is applied to the Law of ‘Isa (peace be upon him) just as it is applied to the Quran. Al-Tahreer wa’l-Tanweer.
Similarly the Christians do not believe that there is a book that was written by the Messiah or one of his disciples during his lifetime that was lost after that.
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
As for the Gospel that is in their hands, they acknowledge that it was not written by the Messiah (peace be upon him), nor did he dictate it to someone else to write it down. Rather they wrote it after the Messiah was taken up (into heaven). Al-Jawab al-Saheeh.
There is a clear difference between the revelation that was sent down to Musa (peace be upon him) and the revelation that was sent down to ‘Isa (peace be upon him). In the Quran there is an indication that the former was written down, as Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And We wrote for him on the Tablets the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation for all things (and said): Hold unto these with firmness, and enjoin your people to take the better therein. I shall show you the home of Al-Fasiqoon (the rebellious, disobedient to Allah).” [7:145]
Although it seems from the words of some Muslim scholars that the true Gospel was compiled and written at the time of the Messiah (peace be upon him). You can find this view in the words of Ibn Hazm in al-Fisal and Ibn Taymiyah in al-Jawab al-Saheeh.
Similarly it says that the word Gospel (Injil) is applied to that which Allah revealed to the Messiah, as it says in the Gospel of Mark 8:35: “… whoever loses his life for me and for the Gospel will save it”.
As for the Gospels that are extant nowadays, they are not the true Gospel, but no one can deny that they contain a great deal of the Gospel that Allah revealed to the Messiah (peace be upon him).
Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
These four books that they call the Gospel, or call each of them a Gospel, were written by them after the Messiah was taken up into heaven, but they do not say in them that they are the word of God, or that the Messiah conveyed them from God. Rather they transmitted in them some of the words of the Messiah, and some of his actions and miracles. They said that they did not narrate from him everything that they heard and saw from him. So they are more akin to what was narrated by the scholars of hadeeth (prophetic narrations), biography and maghaazi (battle) reports from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) of his words and deeds that are not Quran. So the Gospels that they have in their hands are more like the books of seerah (biographies) and hadeeth (prophetic narrations), or like these books, even if most of them are true. Al-Jawab al-Saheeh.
See also the answer to question no. 47516.
And Allah knows best.

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/85280/injil

 

[Tabassum07]

And this...

It is well known among us Muslims that Allaah revealed the Gospel (Injeel) to ‘Eesa (peace be upon him), but when I studied some things about Christianity, they told me that the Gospel was not brought by the Messiah, rather it was written by the disciples of the Messiah after the crucifixion (or after Allaah raised him up to Him, as it says in the Qur’aan). How can we reconcile between the two views?.


Praise be to Allaah.

There is no contradiction between the two views such that we would need to ask how they can be reconciled. Rather the reason why the questioner is confused is that he is mixing up two things that we must believe in and that are both true, praise be to Allaah.
The first issue is the Gospel that was revealed from the Lord of the Worlds to the Prophet of Allaah ‘Eesa (peace be upon him). Belief that Allaah revealed a Book to His Prophet ‘Eesa and that the name of this book was the Gospel (Injeel), are basic principles of faith that we must believe in. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allaah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ‘We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers’ — and they say, ‘We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)’”
[al-Baqarah 2:285]
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Jibreel, when he asked him about faith, as mentioned in the well-known hadeeth: “Faith means to believe in Allaah, His angels, His books, His messengers, the Last Day, and to believe in His divine will and decree, both good and bad.” (Agreed upon).
Disbelieving in that or doubting it is misguidance and kufr or disbelief in Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O you who believe! Believe in Allaah, and His Messenger (Muhammad), and the Book (the Qur’aan) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him); and whosoever disbelieves in Allaah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away.
137. Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe (again), and (again) disbelieve, and go on increasing in disbelief; Allaah will not forgive them, nor guide them on the (right) way”
[al-Nisa’ 4:136-137]
“Verily, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allaah and His Messengers (by believing in Allaah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, “We believe in some but reject others,” and wish to adopt a way in between.
151. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment”
[al-Nisa’ 4:150-151]
The second issue is the Gospel or, more precisely, the Gospels that the Christians have today. Although one of the basic principles of our faith is to believe in the Gospel that was revealed to ‘Eesa, we also believe that there is no longer any book that remained as it was revealed by Allaah, neither the Gospel nor anything else, apart from the Qur’aan. Even the Christians themselves do not believe that the books that they have before them were revealed in that form from God, nor do they claim that the Messiah wrote the Gospel or at least that it was written during his lifetime. Imam Ibn Hazm (may Allaah have mercy on him) says in al-Fasl fi’l-Milal (2/2):

We do not need to try hard to prove that the Gospels and all the books of the Christians did not come from God or from the Messiah (peace be upon him), as we needed to do with regard to the Torah and the books attributed to the Prophets that the Jews have, because the Jews claim that the Torah that they have was revealed from God to Moosa, so we needed to establish proof that this claim of theirs is false. With regard to the Christians, they have taken care of the issue themselves, because they do not believe that the Gospels were revealed from God to the Messiah, or that the Messiah brought them, rather all of them from first to last, peasants and kings, Nestorians, Jacobites, Maronites and Orthodox are all agreed that there are four historical accounts written by four known men at different times. The first of them is the account written by Matthew the Levite who was a disciple of the Messiah, nine years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Hebrew in Judaea in Palestine, and it filled approximately twenty-eight pages in a medium-sized script. The next account was written by Mark, a disciple of Simon ben Yuna, who was called Peter, twenty-two years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Greek in Antioch in the land of the Byzantines. They say that the Simon mentioned is the one who wrote it, then he erased his name from the beginning of it and attributed it to his disciple Mark. It filled twenty-four pages written in a medium-sized script. This Simon was a disciple of the Messiah. The third account written was that of Luke, a physician of Antioch who was also a disciple of Simon Peter. He wrote it in Greek after Mark had written his account, and is similar in length to the Gospel of Matthew. The fourth account was written by John the son of Zebedee, another disciple of the Messiah, sixty-odd years after the Messiah has been taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Greek, and it filled twenty-four pages in a medium-sized script. End quote.​

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Jawaab al-Saheeh (3:21):​

With regard to the Gospels that the Christians have, there are four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are agreed that Luke and Mark did not see the Messiah, rather he was seen by Matthew and John. These four accounts which they call the Gospel, and they call each one of them a Gospel, were written by these men after the Messiah had been taken up into heaven. They did not say that they are the word of God or that the Messiah conveyed them from God, rather they narrated some of the words of the Messiah and some of his deeds and miracles. End quote.​

Moreover, these books which were written after the time of the Messiah did not remain in their original form. The original versions were lost long ago. Ibn Hazm said:​

With regard to the Christians, there is no dispute among them or anyone else that only one hundred and twenty men believed in the Messiah during his lifetime… and all of those who believed in him concealed themselves and were afraid during his lifetime and afterwards; they called people to his religion in secret and none of them disclosed himself or practised his religion openly, because any of them who was caught was executed.​

They continued in this manner, not showing themselves at all, and they had no place where they were safe for three hundred years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven.​

During this time, the Gospel that had been revealed from Allaah disappeared, apart from a few verses which Allaah preserved as proof against them and as a rebuke to them, as we have mentioned. Then when the Emperor Constantine became a Christian, then the Christians prevailed and started to practise their religion openly and assemble in safety.​

If a religion is like this, with its followers practicing it in secret and living in constant fear of the sword, it is impossible for things to be transmitted soundly via a continuous chain of narrators and its followers cannot protect it or prevent it from being distorted.​

End quote. Al-Fasl, 2/4-5.​

In addition to this huge disruption in the chain of transmission of their books, which lasted for two centuries, these books did not remain in the languages in which they were originally written, rather they were translated, more than once, by people whose level of knowledge and honesty is unknown. The contradictions in these books and their shortcomings are among the strongest evidence that they have been distorted and that they are not the Gospel (Injeel) that Allaah revealed to His slave and Messenger ‘Eesa (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said (interpretation of the meaning):​

“Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”​

[al-Nisa’ 4:82].​

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/47516​

 

[Cariad]

Thank you Tabassum07, thank you for your considered response. I was hoping for a more personal viewpoint, about what the actual Injil is in Islam, my husband was taught it was a missing book by Yeshua but I have heard other opinions on this fact. He does not believe this now.

Christians know what the Gospels are, we have never claimed them to be the exact words of YHWH but rather they contain the message YHWH wished us to understand, which was Yeshua. We know Yeshua never wrote any Gospel there was no need as Yeshua himself was the Gospel, he was the living word.

There is no archeological evidence of any other Gospel by Jesus yet thousand evidences for other Gospels.

I feel I will not get answers here so maybe move on. I feel this forum has no room for others who are not muslim, that is ok but I feel a little sad and like somehow I am considered an unworthy person by my presence here. I would like to thank all the members who took time to reply to my posts and I have had some good and interesting dialogue here which I have found to be thought provoking in many ways.

Peace and Blessings to you all. X

One more thing to say never close your hearts to all possibilities that YHWH offers you.

 

[Tabassum07]

Cariad, I feel you should give this forum more of a chance - it's not true that we don't give non-muslims a chance. I'm sure if you continue asking whatever questions you might have, somebody will definitely help you out.

You were looking for a personal viewpoint regarding the Injil - the answer I posted above would be the personal viewpoint of most muslims - since this is what has been told us in the Quran - that the original message (all messages sent to all the previous prophets) have been distorted or lost or went missing, and therefore Allah sent Muhammad to perfect His message to mankind once again.

Exactly what kind of responses are you looking for? The original point of this forum is to help people "Turn to Islam" by imparting correct information, removing misconceptions etc.

 

[um muhammad al-mahdi]

Hello Cariad,

This is not the first time you are not happy with the answers we give you here. Is it because you want to hear what 'you' want to hear? We are not here to keep useless and pointless discussions, we are here trying to spread the correct understanding of Islam. Maybe you would like to discuss with 'confused' Muslims? May Allah guide us all!

 

[Cariad]

Cariad, I feel you should give this forum more of a chance - it's not true that we don't give non-muslims a chance. I'm sure if you continue asking whatever questions you might have, somebody will definitely help you out.

You were looking for a personal viewpoint regarding the Injil - the answer I posted above would be the personal viewpoint of most muslims - since this is what has been told us in the Quran - that the original message (all messages sent to all the previous prophets) have been distorted or lost or went missing, and therefore Allah sent Muhammad to perfect His message to mankind once again.

Exactly what kind of responses are you looking for? The original point of this forum is to help people "Turn to Islam" by imparting correct information, removing misconceptions etc.

Honestly I have hundreds of questions in my head, but when I ask on forums I always get copy and paste response, this I can find on Internet. For me, and to understand the better it is a persons view of why they believe what they do..ya. What happens when a person is muslim? Does it mean personal opinion is squashed and everyone must think the same? There is so much "we believe" in all evidence...but why do you believe?

Like this from the article you kindly posted. ~

It is well known among us Muslims that Allaah revealed the Gospel (Injeel) to ‘Eesa (peace be upon him)

How is this well known? Where is the proof of this claim? There has never been found in existence any archeological evidence to show of any Injil or Gospel written by Yeshua as given him By YHWH. Yes YHWH did give Yeshua a Gospel, but not ever was it a book. Yeshua himself was the Gospel, he was the Good news..the living word of YHWH. It was beholden unto the Disciples to put this Gospel into written words.

Peace to you.

 

[Cariad]

Hello Cariad,

This is not the first time you are not happy with the answers we give you here. Is it because you want to hear what 'you' want to hear? We are not here to keep useless and pointless discussions, we are here trying to spread the correct understanding of Islam. Maybe you would like to discuss with 'confused' Muslims? May Allah guide us all!

Why not happy? Any answer is good, is it useless or pointless to compare what proofs you have for your claims? I was wishing for someone to explain how they reconcile your Injil with Yeshua, or my Yesuha because I cannot find Yeshua as I know to be in the Quran. Do you not think it beneficial to explain and compare if for no other reason than to arrive at better understanding of each others beliefs?

I do not understand why many muslims at first be like friend but as soon as they realise a person does not wish to convert but only to understand better the beliefs of others they no longer wish to discuss. Why is there no room for comparisons? Does this mean Islam is exclusive religion like no one else is worthy of your time.

Well accept my apologies for wasting yours.

Peace.

 

[Tabassum07]

Honestly I have hundreds of questions in my head, but when I ask on forums I always get copy and paste response, this I can find on Internet. For me, and to understand the better it is a persons view of why they believe what they do..ya. What happens when a person is muslim? Does it mean personal opinion is squashed and everyone must think the same? There is so much "we believe" in all evidence...but why do you believe?

Like this from the article you kindly posted. ~

It is well known among us Muslims that Allaah revealed the Gospel (Injeel) to ‘Eesa (peace be upon him)

How is this well known? Where is the proof of this claim? There has never been found in existence any archeological evidence to show of any Injil or Gospel written by Yeshua as given him By YHWH. Yes YHWH did give Yeshua a Gospel, but not ever was it a book. Yeshua himself was the Gospel, he was the Good news..the living word of YHWH. It was beholden unto the Disciples to put this Gospel into written words.

Peace to you.

I apologize for copying and pasting the answer. I wasn't aware you were looking for a personal response - however, the thing is that this answer was so well written and so knowledgeable that neither could I have personally explained each and every point so well as that answer, nor do I have such in-depth knowledge off the top of my head.

Your post reminds me of something I saw in a video long ago. The video was about a man who researched every single major religion looking for the truth. And he said that what was different about Islam was that in other religions such as Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, priests and pastors would answer his questions from their own knowledge. They would give different interpretations so each question had the amount of answers as the number of people he asked. But when he was studying Islam, the shaykh would every time pick up the Quran and show him a verse for his answer. The man was confused. He asked the shaykh - "Okay, tell me, I get this is in the Quran, but what is YOUR view on this? What's your opinion?" And the shaykh humbly said "How can I have an opinion when this is the Word of God?"

And that is the essence of Islamic knowledge. We don't answer off the tops of our heads. All of our answers are found in the Quran or in Prophetic Sayings. There are no hundreds of versions of Islam where each person answers differently or holds their own opinions - what's the point of that? This is one religion showed to us by the One True God - and therefore, how can we personally have an opinion when God has showed His answer?

It's not at all like how you said - "Is personal opinion squashed?" No, Islam means to "Submit" our will with God's. Therefore, whatever God says, we take it without question.

Sorry for the incomplete response, but I will be back to answer the rest later (InshaAllah...)

Updated/Edit:

You ask "Why do we believe"? We believe because we are sure the Quran is the Word of God given to His prophet. That's it..

And when the Quran says Isa was given the Injil, we believe the Bible/Gospel (not the book existing today but the message which was more similar to the Quran) was given to Jesus (peace be upon him). We don't argue that it wasn't a physical book at that point, and it must've been inpired the same way Prophet Muhammad was inspired with the Message. But it was only afterwards that the Bible was written down, and hence all the different versions etc.

Now what is this new twist in the story about Yeshua ? I thought Christians believed that Jesus came with the Bible, not Joshua?

 

[um muhammad al-mahdi]

Hello Cariad,

I quote what sister Tabassum07 wrote mashallah: "We don't answer off the tops of our heads. All of our answers are found in the Quran or in Prophetic Sayings. There are no hundreds of versions of Islam where each person answers differently or holds their own opinions - what's the point of that? This is one religion showed to us by the One True God - and therefore, how can we personally have an opinion when God has showed His answer?".

It is pointless to keep explaining that we don't come out with 'our personal opinions' 'cause God explained everything for us in Quran and Sunnah (as the sister mentioned anyway).

We DO believe in our religion and even if we compare we STILL know we are on the right path. Maybe you are having doubts about your own belief trying to find something 'wrong' with Islam and keep comparing and comparing. I'm sorry but it seems you are never happy with the answers, I've noticed it in the other threads too.

And yes, we are not shy to say that Islam is the perfect religion.

May Allah guide us all!

 

[Cariad]

I apologize for copying and pasting the answer. I wasn't aware you were looking for a personal response - however, the thing is that this answer was so well written and so knowledgeable that neither could I have personally explained each and every point so well as that answer, nor do I have such in-depth knowledge off the top of my head.

Your post reminds me of something I saw in a video long ago. The video was about a man who researched every single major religion looking for the truth. And he said that what was different about Islam was that in other religions such as Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, priests and pastors would answer his questions from their own knowledge. They would give different interpretations so each question had the amount of answers as the number of people he asked. But when he was studying Islam, the shaykh would every time pick up the Quran and show him a verse for his answer. The man was confused. He asked the shaykh - "Okay, tell me, I get this is in the Quran, but what is YOUR view on this? What's your opinion?" And the shaykh humbly said "How can I have an opinion when this is the Word of God?"

And that is the essence of Islamic knowledge. We don't answer off the tops of our heads. All of our answers are found in the Quran or in Prophetic Sayings. There are no hundreds of versions of Islam where each person answers differently or holds their own opinions - what's the point of that? This is one religion showed to us by the One True God - and therefore, how can we personally have an opinion when God has showed His answer?

It's not at all like how you said - "Is personal opinion squashed?" No, Islam means to "Submit" our will with God's. Therefore, whatever God says, we take it without question.

Sorry for the incomplete response, but I will be back to answer the rest later (InshaAllah...)

Updated/Edit:

You ask "Why do we believe"? We believe because we are sure the Quran is the Word of God given to His prophet. That's it..

And when the Quran says Isa was given the Injil, we believe the Bible/Gospel (not the book existing today but the message which was more similar to the Quran) was given to Jesus (peace be upon him). We don't argue that it wasn't a physical book at that point, and it must've been inpired the same way Prophet Muhammad was inspired with the Message. But it was only afterwards that the Bible was written down, and hence all the different versions etc.

Now what is this new twist in the story about Yeshua ? I thought Christians believed that Jesus came with the Bible, not Joshua?

No apology necessary I know you wish to make the point as accurately as possible and maybe I was not clear in my original post. I can at anytime ask any church vicar or priest for clarification of Bible texts I may feel needs an theological explanation. Although as you I find the answers I need come from my own understanding of what G-d requires of me. However when it comes to Islam as I do not have access to a muslim scholar I ask muslims.

Of course it seems easy and obvious to you who have known Islam all your life but to a non muslim who does not see the Quran in the same terms as yourself..as direct word of God...then it is harder to accept for fact what you believe as truth when it is at odds, in my opinion, with the message all the previous Biblical Prophets brought to mankind.

At least you seem to understand as we do that the Gospel according to Yeshua was his spoken word it was only written down by the Apostles after his earthly death and resurrection, this was done under the guidance of the Holy Spirit after Pentecost as promised by Yeshua. This is what the Bible tells us and we have no reason to doubt that this was so, and you can offer no evidence to the contrary. There are no different versions as you say, there are translations which may differ in small ways regarding text and vocab but not in any way that changes the original meaning as the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls proved.

Yeshua and Jesus, is the same name Yeshua is hebrew Jesus in English,if it is a cause for confusion I can use Jesus or The Christ. I like the name Yeshua myself... I don't know where you got Joshua. Jesus did not come with the Bible, the Bible was already in existence for like 1000 years Jesus brought the New Testament.

Peace. X

 

[Cariad]

Hello Cariad,

I quote what sister Tabassum07 wrote mashallah: "We don't answer off the tops of our heads. All of our answers are found in the Quran or in Prophetic Sayings. There are no hundreds of versions of Islam where each person answers differently or holds their own opinions - what's the point of that? This is one religion showed to us by the One True God - and therefore, how can we personally have an opinion when God has showed His answer?".

It is pointless to keep explaining that we don't come out with 'our personal opinions' 'cause God explained everything for us in Quran and Sunnah (as the sister mentioned anyway).

We DO believe in our religion and even if we compare we STILL know we are on the right path. Maybe you are having doubts about your own belief trying to find something 'wrong' with Islam and keep comparing and comparing. I'm sorry but it seems you are never happy with the answers, I've noticed it in the other threads too.

And yes, we are not shy to say that Islam is the perfect religion.

May Allah guide us all!

Hmm.. Is their not other versions of Islam? What of the Shi'a and other sects do they all have the same belief except for the main point. Of course you should have personal opinion, the creator gave you free will, to question does not mean to doubt ones beliefs it is a means to confirm them. Searching for greater knowledge leads to enlightenment and one grows in ones faith or the other way ones no longer feels the closeness to God and then hopefully finds another path. By constantly researching other faith beliefs has strengthened my belief in YHWH and the salvation through Yeshua sent to us.

I have no doubts at all about my faith, and it is good that you have no doubts about yours.

You have expressed concern that I am not happy with answers I get to questions asked, this is not so, I am very happy with all answers I received because I welcome all opinion which adds to knowledge. I may not agree with what the answers say..but that is different to not being happy. Happiness does not have to come from agreement with any point made but rather in the discourse between people's of different viewpoints coming to an understanding, even a small one, and the realisation that at heart we are not really that different that we hold in highest esteem possible the ONE true God and each live our lives to honour this ONE true God. For me as a Christian that means loving my fellow man as I would love God.

Peace. X

 

[abjad]

Cariad

i know this is out of question but I hope you might be of Help.

(5:32) Therefore We ordained for the Children of Israelthat he who slays a soul unless it be (in punishment) for murder or for spreading mischief on earth shall be as if he had slain all mankind; and he who saves a life shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.And indeed again and again did Our Messengers come to them with clear directives; yet many of them continued to commit excesses on earth.

The Talmud, however, does mention this subject in the following words:

To him who kills a single individual of Israel, it shall be reckoned as if he had slain the whole race and he who preserves a single individual of Israel, it shall be reckoned in the Book of God as if he had preserved the whole world. The Talmud also mentions that in trials for murder, the Israelite judges used to address the witnesses as follows:
Whoever kills one person, merits punishment as if he had slain all the men in the world.

ARE ~the precious words which embody God's ordinance to be found anywhere in the Bible today.?

 

[Tabassum07]

Cariad,

You are focusing on the fact that there are differences in the Quran in relation to all other religions. However, you don't stop and think about the similarities. How is it possible that a word to word similarity exists in both the Talmud and the Quran as brother abjad posted above?

We believe in all Prophets and all their messages (However, all the messages as they were brought originally. Later on, all the messages were either lost or edited or got corrupted.)

Are you aware that Muslims follow the teachings of Yeshua (peace be upon him) more closely than even you Christians follow?

I would advise you to please watch this following video. It's a bit long, but very very informational. The video is by a former Christian who was searching for the truth:

 

[um muhammad al-mahdi]

Hmm.. Is their not other versions of Islam? What of the Shi'a and other sects do they all have the same belief except for the main point. Of course you should have personal opinion, the creator gave you free will, to question does not mean to doubt ones beliefs it is a means to confirm them. Searching for greater knowledge leads to enlightenment and one grows in ones faith or the other way ones no longer feels the closeness to God and then hopefully finds another path. By constantly researching other faith beliefs has strengthened my belief in YHWH and the salvation through Yeshua sent to us.

I have no doubts at all about my faith, and it is good that you have no doubts about yours.

You have expressed concern that I am not happy with answers I get to questions asked, this is not so, I am very happy with all answers I received because I welcome all opinion which adds to knowledge. I may not agree with what the answers say..but that is different to not being happy. Happiness does not have to come from agreement with any point made but rather in the discourse between people's of different viewpoints coming to an understanding, even a small one, and the realisation that at heart we are not really that different that we hold in highest esteem possible the ONE true God and each live our lives to honour this ONE true God. For me as a Christian that means loving my fellow man as I would love God.

Peace. X

There are not other 'versions' of Islam, we follow the Quran and the Sunnah with the understanding of the Pious Predecessors, simple! The 'deviations' come from 'people ideas' not from Quran and Sunnah!

You said 'I feel I will not get answers here so maybe move on.' (in your post #3)

Learn pure tawheed and stop wasting time trying to get 'wrong' answers to make you believe that Islam isn't for you!

May Allah guide you to the straight path!

 

[Tabassum07]

There are not other 'versions' of Islam, we follow the Quran and the Sunnah with the understanding of the Pious Predecessors, simple! The 'deviations' come from 'people ideas' not from Quran and Sunnah!

You said 'I feel I will not get answers here so maybe move on.' (in your post #3)

Learn pure tawheed and stop wasting time trying to get 'wrong' answers to make you believe that Islam isn't for you!

May Allah guide you to the straight path!

respected sister,

I hope you won't be offended by my post, but let's try and be understanding here. It's not so simple as to just say "learn tawheed" when the person doesn't even know what tawheed means or what it is, or even *why* to start learning it. Our job as muslims is to give information with the best language, the most beautiful words and preaching - and to help the questioner feel comfortable to ask questions. When scolded people are just put off by the entire thing and lose the motive and zeal to learn or understand, and I hope we don't lose our patience with anyone. I would definitely not call what we're doing here as "wasting time." In fact I myself get to learn so much from researching these answers before replying. If I stopped participating in these questions and answers, I would still have been under the impression that Yeshua (peace be upon him) is somebody called Joshua... (now how silly is that!)

Cariad, I do hope you find time to watch the video I posted. It goes through how the Bible these days is mostly Paulian ideas, and how Paul and Christ's teachings were diametrically opposite so much so that all of Christ's earthly followers and companions used to be against him. I learned a lot from it, and I hope you do as well - quite an eye opener, actually.

 

[um muhammad al-mahdi]

assalamu alaykum sister Tabassum07,

don't worry absolutely no offenses.

My apologies, astaghfirullah, I should have added a link/info re tawheed (even if I remember some members tried to explain to Cariad about Tawheed and the essence of Islam... but that's again another story). Here is a link for Cariad (with lots of more info in the same section mashallah): http://turntoislam.com/threads/essentials-of-tawheed.91400/

Wasting time yes, 'cause sometimes we almost try to open the head of other people to make them understand Islam, even if the other person is not happy with the answers. There is so much we need to learn about our deen rather than write and write answers (which refers to Qur'an and Sunnah of course) for people whom just Allah can guide. I'm sorry, maybe we have different priorities but please forgive me sister if I've said something who might have hurt/upset you!!! My apologies! Jazakillahu khayran and may Allah guide us all!

 

[Cariad]

Cariad

i know this is out of question but I hope you might be of Help.




The Talmud, however, does mention this subject in the following words:



ARE ~the precious words which embody God's ordinance to be found anywhere in the Bible today.?

Yes, I believe they are

 

[Cariad]

Cariad,

You are focusing on the fact that there are differences in the Quran in relation to all other religions. However, you don't stop and think about the similarities. How is it possible that a word to word similarity exists in both the Talmud and the Quran as brother abjad posted above?

We believe in all Prophets and all their messages (However, all the messages as they were brought originally. Later on, all the messages were either lost or edited or got corrupted.)

Are you aware that Muslims follow the teachings of Yeshua (peace be upon him) more closely than even you Christians follow?

I would advise you to please watch this following video. It's a bit long, but very very informational. The video is by a former Christian who was searching for the truth:

Hello again Tabassum07, I accept that there are many many similarities between our faiths, as I believe that comes from the same base belief in the One True God, supreme creator of all there is and all we are. However for me as a Christian I also see big differences in some fundamentals of the previous scriptures. There is nothing strange that the same stories should appear in the Quran as in the Bible, this fact is not necessarily proof that both scriptures came from the same God...but that they could be is also a possibility. The Bible as well as the Talmud, Torah and many Gnostics were freely available during Prophet Mohammed's lifetime and it is very likely that he came into contact with people who were either knowledgable or had in their possession scriptures. After all its understood Prophet Mohammed was widely travelled. We can also assume that he knew of the Gnostics because of stories of Jesus and the clay Birds, for one example. This was never accepted into the Bible canon, as it could not be proved as an authentic work so as such lacked provenance.

You say that you believe in all the previous Prophets and their messages, this is admirable. Many of these Prophets foretold the birth, mission, death and resurrection of Yeshua but I'm not sure if as muslims you accept this fact. I have never seen proof, at least conclusive proof that these messages and revelations were changed. Although this claim is often made by muslims I do wonder if thought is ever given to the logistics of such an exercise, or even a valid reason for doing so that's before we get to God promising to protect his truth from the pens of men.

I am aware Muslims do respect Yeshua or Jesus or even Issa if you prefer but I do not think, from what I have read that you really know the real Yeshua. What are his teachings that you follow in the Quran? The Sermon on the Mount is said to be the Pinnacle of his mission, Is that in the Quran? I offer a link if you would be interested to read it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7&version=NIV

You are right.. the video is long....it could have been shorter and more concise if it weren't for the interruptions of the host. But thank you for sharing it,there were some good points raised, but there is also confusion on many points, especially if the interviewee was once a Christian, some points he made are not pertinent to many Christians and what they believe. Some ideas like Christians only worship on Sundays are far from the truth, we may not attend prayers at church daily and just because we do not make show of praying at prescribed times of day does not mean we do not pray to achieve closeness to God as often. If I'm having a good day, I thank God for it if I'm having a bad day I talk to God about it, either way I gain great personal peace from the experience.

Peace and blessings.

 

[Cariad]

respected sister,

I hope you won't be offended by my post, but let's try and be understanding here. It's not so simple as to just say "learn tawheed" when the person doesn't even know what tawheed means or what it is, or even *why* to start learning it. Our job as muslims is to give information with the best language, the most beautiful words and preaching - and to help the questioner feel comfortable to ask questions. When scolded people are just put off by the entire thing and lose the motive and zeal to learn or understand, and I hope we don't lose our patience with anyone. I would definitely not call what we're doing here as "wasting time." In fact I myself get to learn so much from researching these answers before replying. If I stopped participating in these questions and answers, I would still have been under the impression that Yeshua (peace be upon him) is somebody called Joshua... (now how silly is that!)

Cariad, I do hope you find time to watch the video I posted. It goes through how the Bible these days is mostly Paulian ideas, and how Paul and Christ's teachings were diametrically opposite so much so that all of Christ's earthly followers and companions used to be against him. I learned a lot from it, and I hope you do as well - quite an eye opener, actually.

I don't remember anyone explaining the concept of tawheed to me or even if I asked them to, in my limited knowledge I understood it to be how a muslim perceives Allah. It's difficult on a forum dialogue with person unknown it is easy to make assumptions of what they may know and understand or if they are totally ignorant, that is one reason I feel entering into dialogue in the effort to gain knowledge and better understanding of each others beliefs can only be a good thing. I fell upon this forum by accident on the Christian - Muslim dialogue section, which is not active any longer, I was so saddened by what I read about how my faith as a Christian was misunderstood and woefully portrayed I thought to join to hopefully set the record straight as it were. However I did not realise that interfaith debates were not allowed now..

I did watch your video, but do not see that Paul's teachings are diametrically different from Christ's. I can understand how muslims would wish to see them that way though. Most of Paul's teachings were in existence long before in previous Gospels. Paul was not in opposition to Christ but was a great expounder of Christ and his mission, which was not only for the Jews but for the whole of mankind.

I think it's important to also see from which prospective an article is written from, or a video even. There are many people who are not that bothered about the supposed truth of what they claim but sometimes rather what importance and recognition it may bring them in their life. Fictional books we accept as works of fiction and can enjoy them for what they are, escapist literature. Non fictional books although claiming to be non fiction in content are always written from the personal prospective of the author and so is bound to portray to some extent their bias in order to make their point.

Seem to be running off at a tangent here...oops.

Peace and blessings. X