The Methodology of the Salaf Concerning Ijtihad and Taqlid

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Assalamu'alaykum,

I know Hanafi's in particular, tend to making it haraam on their followers to look at any other opinion from a non-hanafi scholar. I can see benefits to sticking to the one, but on what basis do they enforce following just one Madhab? So if there is a scholar of sound knowledge and character in their communities but not of the madhab they have opted to follow, they don't take anything from him at all, even if they have no other option, they'd quicker settle for a deviant who at least claims to be of their madhab.

I'd quite like to know who/where this understanding is coming from.
Wassalam

This is all based on the idea that there is 'the greater good' (Maslahah) in adhering to one Madhhab, or one pool of scholars.

They argue that if normal Taqleed (asking any trustworthy scholar) was allowed, this would lead to people following any scholar they want, and this might lead people into following desire. Another argument they use is that it might mixing up scholars might lead to Talfeeq Batil.

The first person in my reading to have ever obliged this type of Taqleed is a North African Maliki scholar called al-Maziri (or say al-Mazari) in the 6th century.

The first Hanafi scholar to suggest this was Abdul Hayy al-Laknawi, who died a few centuries ago and was based in India.

I translated both fatwas (I think) somewhere else on another forum.

It is totally understandable why they said what they said. However, later people, esp. Hanafis, have taken it to all sorts of extremes and claim this is the only acceptable version of Taqleed!

This is a detailed topic that deserves a detailed discussion.
 

Idris16

Junior Member
I feel sorry for you, quoting Hadith out of its place. You should have stated another Hadith that would have been more appropriate for this thread:

يحمل هذا العلم من كل خلف عُدوله ينفون عنه تحريف الغالين وانتحال المبطلين وتأويل الجاهلين
This knowledge will be taken by the upright amongst every successive generation. [Protecting the knowledge, t]hey will drive out the the distortions of the extremists, the sabotage attempts of those on falsehood, and the misinterpretations of the ignorant.


Why you are selectively quoting some Hadith and leaving out others is for you to explain. If this thread isn't your cup of tea, kindly remain silent.
This is my first post in this thread and I want to tell you that this forum is Turn to Islam and not slandering-awakening forum. I am not saying you slandered anyone here, but do not think we are in un-islamic awakening forum.
 

samiha

---------
Staff member
Brother Idris, calm down. That was unnecessary.

Unless you've seen anything in this thread that would have merited you saying that, I see no point in it. Obviously this is TurnToIslam, and we have our own rules and standards. Don't bring your apparent dislike of some other forum into derailing this thread please.

Let's stick to the issue at hand, and bring up legitimate questions.
 

samiha

---------
Staff member
Brother HH,

JazaakAllahu khayra for your patient replies, they're very helpful alhamdulillah. Some of the questions may seem obvious or simple, but for myself personally, they help re-enforce concepts, and often when I see some of the answers I recall having read them before - but it helps solidify the understanding.

Especially so, because although I've been a member of this forum for a long time - I've only discovered this issue in the past year or so. Largely this is because of the lack of knowledge in this arena on the forum, and pretty much no solid discussion on it. For these reasons I've really wanted a thread like this for a long time, to allow us all to gain some understanding on this topic, and I appreciate your coming and helping out.

- Having said that brother, I've heard you using the term "Taqlid Shaksi" I believe to discuss the above extremism in regards to taqleed, the question I have is, is this actually a term that is used or understood in any texts? Or has it just been made recently?
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
- Having said that brother, I've heard you using the term "Taqlid Shaksi" I believe to discuss the above extremism in regards to taqleed, the question I have is, is this actually a term that is used or understood in any texts? Or has it just been made recently?
Shakhs = person.

Taqleed Shakhsi literally means you follow one person (only).

However, in the Indian Sub-Continent, they use it to mean Taqleed of one Madhhab (only). It is more appropriate therefore to use the term Taqleed Madhhabi.

Shakhs and Madhhab are two different things. A Madhhab has more than just one Shakhs, and the most reliable opinion within a Madhhab in any one issue could have originated from anybody, not just the Imam of that Madhhab.

The term Taqleed Shakhsi hasn't really been used in the classical text as far as I am aware, or outside the Indian Sub-C for that matter.

Doing Taqleed Shakhsi (or call it Taqleed Madhhabi) itself is not extremism. Even the opinion of the obligation of Taqleed Shakhsi is not extremism. The only extremism is when people of that opinion belittle other forms of Taqleed, as if they are not valid.

Some people are very extreme on that end as well, just like folks like Aziboy and Hammy unfortunately are on the other end. When faced with such extremism, the best option to refer to the texts, proving that such extremism never existed.
 

Itqan Ullah

Time is Running!!
All of this a granular fine aspects way beyond the comprehension of laymen hence they are not responsible. They are only obliged to follow a trustworthy scholar.

You see, the problem with obliging responsibility on laymen in these matters is that a) not only there is no evidence for it, but b) the evidence is against it as the last verse of Baqarah suggests.

This does not detract, however, from the seriousness of the issue within academic circles.

So basically that means laypersons involved in grave worship aren't blameworthy if they are doing it out of ignorance due to misunderstanding of this issue?
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
So basically that means laypersons involved in grave worship aren't blameworthy if they are doing it out of ignorance due to misunderstanding of this issue?
The Quranic verse is clear:

وما كنا معذبين حتى نبعث رسولا
We will not punish until we send a messenger.


That means as long as these people are unaware of the Shirki nature of this activity, whilst broadly maintaing the tenets of Islam, they would not become Kafir.

Onlookers however have an obligation of explaining the matter. Once the evidence is established as clear as the light of day, then a scholar may rule on them as Kuffar.

This is a very brief answer. Details of this issue are found in the theological texts, and the issue itself is known as العذر بالجهل, or 'being excused due to ignorance'.
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
This is my first post in this thread and I want to tell you that this forum is Turn to Islam and not slandering-awakening forum. I am not saying you slandered anyone here, but do not think we are in un-islamic awakening forum.
On behalf of all of IA, and in the spirit of TTI, I forgive you for the sake of Allah.
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Regarding al-Qasim bin Muhammad, who was mentioned on this thread before, there is a PhD thesis from 1407 A.H./1987, Madinah University, by the title of:

فقه القاسم بن محمد بن أبي بكر الصديق موازناً بفقه أشهر المجتهدين
The Fiqh of al-Qasim bin Muhammad bin Abi Bakr al-Siddiq in comparison with the Fiqh of the most famous Mujtahids


written by none other than the late Imam of al-Masjid al-Haram in Makkah, Ali Abdullah Jabir (died 1426 A.H./2005)
 

thariq2005

Praise be to Allah!
Regarding al-Qasim bin Muhammad, who was mentioned on this thread before, there is a PhD thesis from 1407 A.H./1987, Madinah University, by the title of:

فقه القاسم بن محمد بن أبي بكر الصديق موازناً بفقه أشهر المجتهدين
The Fiqh of al-Qasim bin Muhammad bin Abi Bakr al-Siddiq in comparison with the Fiqh of the most famous Mujtahids


written by none other than the late Imam of al-Masjid al-Haram in Makkah, Ali Abdullah Jabir (died 1426 A.H./2005)

Is there an e-copy of it by any chance, in .pdf or .doc? The title of it sounds pretty interesting.
 

Itqan Ullah

Time is Running!!
The Quranic verse is clear:

وما كنا معذبين حتى نبعث رسولا
We will not punish until we send a messenger.


That means as long as these people are unaware of the Shirki nature of this activity, whilst broadly maintaing the tenets of Islam, they would not become Kafir.

Onlookers however have an obligation of explaining the matter. Once the evidence is established as clear as the light of day, then a scholar may rule on them as Kuffar.

This is a very brief answer. Details of this issue are found in the theological texts, and the issue itself is known as العذر بالجهل, or 'being excused due to ignorance'.

OK, everything fits in perfectly. Jazakallah Khairan.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Asalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Baraakaatuh,

Brother Harris, I have some confusion I am hoping you can clear. I read your posts but I'm not sure I understood enough to have my questions answered, so in case you have answered them already, please bear with me.

I was raised a hanafi but having done "some" of my own search later, I was told many things that we do are "hearsay" and "bidaah". Now, having read your posts, I'm confused as what to do.

For example: I learned from the members here that wiping the neck is bidaah in Wudhu, the sujdah sahw we did is wrong, Sujdah sahw is not to be done for every slight mistake in salah, women doing `Ithikaaf in their houses is Bidaah so on and so forth. Now I don't even know `Arabic. I got all this stuff from IslamQA. Having read those fatwas, I follow them. Since this bid`ah call is a rough one, in the begining I went on correcting my family on this that and the other [I can see that was foolish]. So what is to be done is such situations, because apparantly what's bid`ah in IslamQA fatwas is part of the Sunnah here. Am I "obliged" to stay quiet because I have no knowledge of my own, and can I follow IslamQA?

Secondly:
Another argument they use is that it might mixing up scholars might lead to Talfeeq Batil.
Since my source of information is the internet and there are many opinions, what do you advice us in this case. If we follow any scholar whose evidence seems stronger or let's say more convincing to our layman minds, would that be talfeeq batil?

Thirdly:
Down here some stuff is rendered permissible with no one knowing it's evidence. For example: If I'm to travel for my classes some 110 miles away from home alone, it's fine. Checking IslamQA, I get I can't even travel my 2.5 min with a non mahram rickshaw driver when I'm late. As far as I can recall, that fatwa didn't share any evidence either [I know as a layman I'm not required to see if the Shaykh feels like it] but as a layman I do get all confused.

Fourthly:
At multaqa I was told that we can shorten the prayer if the stay is for three to
ten days depending upon distance. I repeated all the prayers that I prayed wrong according to this statement. Now, I've been told that what I did before i.e shortening of prayers if the stay is as long as 15 days [ and the required distance is traveled] wasn't wrong either and is according to the hanafi madhab. How do I know what's right, and what do I follow, considering I don't know anything.

I know all these questions are not strictly related to the definition and explanation of taqleed but as laymen how do we apply this taqleed and what do you advice us to do if we get all confused like me.

Apologies if the questions are confusing or silly and BaraakAllaahu feek for reading them if you've gotten this far.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam alaikum,

Help,

Brother Harris,

You are not a scholar but you have many members asking you questions as if you have knowledge...and by your own words you have limited knowledge and are by no means a scholar. You have read one book and use the internet heavily.

Are the members here following into blind following..I am still unsure of how you got to be the guru of TTI...with the harem...

what boat did I miss.
 

Asif1

Banned
Assalam Alaykum sister Seeking Allah's mercy,

I too came to know that I was Hanafi just when I left following a particular madhab [one out of four] which is a typical form of Taqleed and is not permissible [as per the defination of Taqleed].

Where as when I got out to seek knowledge I came to know there is a lot of things which are confusing. But one thing is there, if you heard from a trusted Scholar giving you ruling on a particular issue and you followed it just because you have no knowledge about it that It should be ok and unless you came to know that whatever you have followed was not according to the Sunnah from another scholar with examples and Daleels that I guess you should adopt that. I am just a normal Muslim with limited knowledge.

Ibn al-Qayyim al-Jawziyyah [ra] lived in a time in which there was strife and internal confusion and chaos, as well as an external threat which was menacing the Islamic state. For this reason, he used to order with holding fast to the Book of Allâh and the Sunnah of the Messenger (SAAS), and the rejection of separation and disunity. Amongst his goals was the purging of the religion from the innovations and desires and returning it to its pure and original fountains. So he called for the destruction of the madhab of blind-following (taqleed), a return to the madhab of the Salaf and traversing upon their way and methodology. Because of this we see that he did not restrict himself to the Hanbalee madhab and often he would take the opinion and view of one of the various mahdabs, or sometimes he may have had an opinion which confliucts with the opinion of the all the other madhabs. Thus, his madhab was ijtihaad and the rejection of taqleed [and this is the position with all the scholars of past and present but not that of the common person or muqallid].

Please correct me if I am wrong

And ALLAH knows the best

wassalam
 

thariq2005

Praise be to Allah!
Assalaam alaikum,

Help,

Brother Harris,

You are not a scholar but you have many members asking you questions as if you have knowledge...and by your own words you have limited knowledge and are by no means a scholar. You have read one book and use the internet heavily.

Are the members here following into blind following..I am still unsure of how you got to be the guru of TTI...with the harem...

what boat did I miss.

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaah

Sister, you come across as somewhat rude to the brother. There is a reason why many people on this thread are asking him questions and respecting him- not based on the fact that he is new to TTI and just quoted some stuff from books of Usool, rather it may be because the brother is quite known amongst internet forum users on other 'knowledge' based forums (like Multaqa).

If the brother is a strong student of knowledge, do you actually expect him to share this with people on forums? Or do you think that he may prefer to conceal it out of humbleness?

Whatever the case, it is sufficient to know that the brother has studied with scholars and is far more knowledgable than all of us here. So, take benefit from those people who have gained knowledge whilst it is possible to do so.
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Wassalam
I know all these questions are not strictly related to the definition and explanation of taqleed but as laymen how do we apply this taqleed and what do you advice us to do if we get all confused like me.

Apologies if the questions are confusing or silly and BaraakAllaahu feek for reading them if you've gotten this far.
Look the application and implementation of Taqleed rules is even more important than the theory of Taqleed itself, so your questions are not out of place.


I was raised a hanafi but having done "some" of my own search later, I was told many things that we do are "hearsay" and "bidaah". Now, having read your posts, I'm confused as what to do.
Well it's simple: follow a scholar you trust.


For example:

I learned from the members here that wiping the neck is bidaah in Wudhu, the sujdah sahw we did is wrong, Sujdah sahw is not to be done for every slight mistake in salah, women doing `Ithikaaf in their houses is Bidaah so on and so forth. Now I don't even know `Arabic. I got all this stuff from IslamQA. Having read those fatwas, I follow them. Since this bid`ah call is a rough one, in the begining I went on correcting my family on this that and the other [I can see that was foolish]. So what is to be done is such situations, because apparantly what's bid`ah in IslamQA fatwas is part of the Sunnah here. Am I "obliged" to stay quiet because I have no knowledge of my own, and can I follow IslamQA?
Just follow a scholar you trust. I'll give you the benefit of my opinion though in these specific matters from a Hanafi perspective, since I assume it that some people perceive Hanafi Fiqh to be responsible for this mess:

1. Wiping the back of the neck is not from the original Hanafi Madhhab, but rather was created later on by some later Hanafi scholars. They based this on a Hadith they found, however, its authenticity is severely disputed. Best to leave it out. In addition, in matters as big as Wudu, we should tend to stick to the big things i.e. the clear narrations. Finding something not as famously reported in a matter like Wudu that is very famous in the religion casts doubt on its authenticity according to scholars of Hadith.

2. The original Sajdat 'l-Shaw procedure of the Hanafi School is to do two Salams, do Sajdat 'l-Sahw, come back and do two Salams. A combination of a couple of Hadith in Saheeh Muslim would prove this procedure, so no problem with this opinion. Also, Sajdat 'l-Sahw should be done for what there is proof for Sajdat 'l-Sahw. It is correct that you don't do Sahw for any type of mistake. Details of this can be found in Fiqh.

3. It appears that the stronger narration of the original Hanafi Madhhab does not mention anything about a woman doing I`tikaf in her house. However, in another narration, it does mention that she can do I`tikaf in her dedicated place of prayer house, based on the Hadith 'The earth and been made a place of prayer (Masjid) and means of purification [via Tayammum]', and coupled with the idea that Salah for a lady is best in her house, they ruling is deduced that a lady should also best perform I`tikaf in her house. However, it seems to me that the silence of the stronger narration of the Hanafi Madhhab indicates that this ruling is weak.


Secondly:

Since my source of information is the internet and there are many opinions, what do you advice us in this case. If we follow any scholar whose evidence seems stronger or let's say more convincing to our layman minds, would that be talfeeq batil?
Follow a trustworthy scholar. If you think IslamQA is trustworthy, good. I endorse that as well as a trustworthy website.

And by the way that is not Talfeeq Batil brother. Talfeeq Batil means mixing various rulings up in one place to come up with a new form of action that is not endorsed by anybody. The classic example given is that a man touches a lady and bleeds due to a wound, claiming his Wudu is still intact. This is Talfeeq Batil, because all the scholars who said that bleeding doesn't break Wudu say that it does break when a man touches a woman, and all scholars who say touching a woman doesn't break Wudu say that it does break when one bleeds. In other words, your Wudu is broken in all opinions, so you can't mix it up and say that your whole Wudu is still intact.


Thirdly:

Down here some stuff is rendered permissible with no one knowing it's evidence. For example: If I'm to travel for my classes some 110 miles away from home alone, it's fine. Checking IslamQA, I get I can't even travel my 2.5 min with a non mahram rickshaw driver when I'm late. As far as I can recall, that fatwa didn't share any evidence either [I know as a layman I'm not required to see if the Shaykh feels like it] but as a layman I do get all confused.
Follow a trustworthy scholar. If you want evidence for the contentment of your heart, request politely or ask another scholar.


Fourthly:

At multaqa I was told that we can shorten the prayer if the stay is for three to ten days depending upon distance. I repeated all the prayers that I prayed wrong according to this statement. Now, I've been told that what I did before i.e shortening of prayers if the stay is as long as 15 days [ and the required distance is traveled] wasn't wrong either and is according to the hanafi madhab. How do I know what's right, and what do I follow, considering I don't know anything.
This is a matter that has legitimate difference of opinion, so no worries. If you find out that your action is in accordance to one of the Madhhabs, or a scholar says you were fine in doing so, then you don't need to repeat anything.
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Wassalam
Brother Harris,

You are not a scholar... and by your own words you have limited knowledge and are by no means a scholar.
Yes I am not a scholar, nor do I want to be identified as such. That is why I quote scholars of the past. I don't think people would listen to me if everything was from my pocket.


... but you have many members asking you questions as if you have knowledge...
I guess your problem then is with those who are asking the questions.


You have read one book and use the internet heavily.
Yes I read one book. I read a few more as well. I'm not the one to fly my own flag, but please see the references I quote on the matter of Taqleed:
http://ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?p=83296#post83296
http://ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?p=92215#post92215

I'm researching the Shafi`i and Hanbali scholars at the moment, for what its worth.


Are the members here following into blind following..I am still unsure of how you got to be the guru of TTI...with the harem...
Feel free to voice your opinion on the questions any time. It's a public forum.


what boat did I miss.
As I said before, I'd like my posts to be judged for what they are, not for who I am or what I may be. I don't have any authority of my own. I'd just like to help and be helped through tough questioning and constructive feedback.

You haven't given me any constructive feedback.

Ma` Salaamah
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Wassalam
Please correct me if I am wrong
Insha'allah. Here are some points for you to consider.


I too came to know that I was Hanafi just when I left following a particular madhab [one out of four] which is a typical form of Taqleed and is not permissible [as per the defination of Taqleed].
What are you talking about? Who said that the definition of Taqleed makes it Haram for you to follow a Madhhab?

Taqleed means to ask and follow a trustworthy scholar. Some people like just trust one scholar, or like to ask the scholars of one Madhhab only. They mind their own business. What is the problem with that?


Where as when I got out to seek knowledge I came to know there is a lot of things which are confusing. But one thing is there, if you heard from a trusted Scholar giving you ruling on a particular issue and you followed it just because you have no knowledge about it that It should be ok and unless you came to know that whatever you have followed was not according to the Sunnah from another scholar with examples and Daleels that I guess you should adopt that. I am just a normal Muslim with limited knowledge.
Well that is fine, except you are a layman with limited knowledge, so how would you be able to determine that the scholar giving you 'proof' is automatically stronger than the one not giving you proof? Scholars are not obliged to give proof, as mentioned before, esp. when they feel it would be beyond your comprehension.

So the principle of following a scholar on the basis of his trustworthiness (not on the basis of Daleel) remains strong, as the verse of the Quran says.


Ibn al-Qayyim al-Jawziyyah [ra] lived in a time in which there was strife and internal confusion and chaos, as well as an external threat which was menacing the Islamic state. For this reason, he used to order with holding fast to the Book of Allâh and the Sunnah of the Messenger (SAAS), and the rejection of separation and disunity. Amongst his goals was the purging of the religion from the innovations and desires and returning it to its pure and original fountains. So he called for the destruction of the madhab of blind-following (taqleed), a return to the madhab of the Salaf and traversing upon their way and methodology. Because of this we see that he did not restrict himself to the Hanbalee madhab and often he would take the opinion and view of one of the various mahdabs, or sometimes he may have had an opinion which confliucts with the opinion of the all the other madhabs. Thus, his madhab was ijtihaad and the rejection of taqleed [and this is the position with all the scholars of past and present but not that of the common person or muqallid].
1. Why are you copying and pasting? This is the blindest form of Taqleed and happens a lot on the Internet.

2. Not only that, you should have stated where you are copying from (http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/seerah/0036.htm) rather than passing it off as your own. Do you know what plagiarism is? It is academic and intellectual theft.

3. There are so many blunders in that article it is hard to count. I'll suffice with the part you copied-pasted:

- It's not Ibn al-Qayyim al-Jawziyyah; it's Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah.

- So he called for the destruction of the madhab of blind-following (taqleed), a return to the madhab of the Salaf and traversing upon their way and methodology.
He didn't call towards the destruction of Taqleed. If you read the last pages of his book I`laam 'l-Muwaqqi`een, he talks about the rulings of Taqleed and asking questions.

- Thus, his madhab was ijtihaad and the rejection of taqleed [and this is the position with all the scholars of past and present but not that of the common person or muqallid].
He was still a Hanbali though. Being a Hanbali or whatever doesn't automatically make one a Muqallid. It is just a legal title and affiliation. He is mentioned in the books of the Hanabilah as a Hanbali.

And there is no such thing as the Madhhab of Taqleed and Madhhab of Ijtihad. There's just Taqleed and Ijtihad.


Problem with such articles is that they condemn Taqleed so much that common people who are ignorant feel they are doing wrong when doing Taqleed. Taqleed is a necessity.
 
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