The Quran, a miracle/sign: in which sense? Epilepsy?

[strive-may-i]

There has been no disrespect.

We just showed you your formulation are incorrect, So you had to jump to next point. About Prophet , you did not say a single fact. The orientalist books have been certified as prejudiced and bundle of lies. Your choice.

Crowsourcing tells, you have an inability to keep your feeling in check. You come with feeling, and is evident.

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

We should distinguish "respect of faith" and "uncritical belief in a faith". I can respect stone-worshipping, but not worship stones myself. I can also ask politely questions on a "stone-worshipping forum", if I want to understand this faith.

If they reply to me "you are arrogant or ignorant if you question the logic of stone-worshipping". They will look weird to me, who thinks (maybe wrongly) that stones cannot benefit nor harm me. But maybe they are just following the religion of their parents, and I can respect that.

So my opinion about some Muslims is that their attitude to religion is closer to Abraham's father than to Abraham himself. The "content" of their beliefs could be the same as Abraham's, but prophets are usually more remarkable by their attitude than by the content of their beliefs. This is why prophets made their society progress. And why some "scholars of deen" make their society stagnate. Same beliefs, but different attitudes.



When Muhammad faced metaphysical questions in his early fourties, he went to hira cave, meditating alone. He did not go to a priest or to a rabbi.

Personnally, when the illness is serious, I prefer to trust wikipedia. Trusting an encyclopedia written by a crowd of teenagers is more wise than trusting a doctor, who might not be up-to-date with recent medical literature (doctors use wikipedia anyway).

If you know someone with "knowledge of the deen" who wrote something interesting about the Geschwind syndrom, I am interested.

We live in the 21st century, not the 20th. Well-organized crowds can out-preform experts. If nobody on this forum shares this optimism about "the wisdom of the crowd", there is no reason to waste my time with this particular crowd, and I should look for a more optimistic crowd.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_of_the_crowd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing_creative_work
Crowdsourcing creative work (CCW) is an open call to the crowd for novel and useful solutions. Crowdsourcing may be appropriate when experts are in scarce supply, multiple diverse ideas and/or contextual insights are needed.

You are definitely not someone I'm going to waste my time on anymore. I'll just clarify.

Your words were never polite. You could have asked what made Qur'an miraculous and waited for us to answer, and not make rude disrespectful and offensive assumptions yourself.

I don't see why one has to stop using his intellect simply because it's the 21st century. I have said it before, I say again. What difference does these numbers make anyway. By Islamic calender you are living in the 14 Century. Does that make the world today any different?

Seriously? You really didn't get that I was making an analogy? I didn't knew it was your first time debating.

Anyhow, I'm not so sure about that syndrome, however we do have scholars and students of knowledge who have explained at length why Qur'an is miraculous.

Hm. They are your ideals. Why come here then? Please go to wiki and the ideal CCW for your questions and stop bothering us. Thankyou.

 

[Tabassum07]

:salam2:

To explain to mokko how we know with certainty that Ellen White isn't receiving divine revelation, here's what we all believe: When was this Ellen White around? Because if she came after Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), sorry, there's no way she's received true revelation because our Prophet was the last Prophet to come. There will be no more revelation from here on end, and only Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will return as he was someone who did not die, so he needs to come to earth so his soul can taste death just like the rest of us.

There are plenty of people who claim they're psychics, or receive messages - they're only getting gibberish information from the world of jinn. Every single supernatural, unexplained ghostly story you hear is the jinn.

 

[Hajjerr]

:salam2:

To explain to mokko how we know with certainty that Ellen White isn't receiving divine revelation, here's what we all believe: When was this Ellen White around? Because if she came after Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), sorry, there's no way she's received true revelation because our Prophet was the last Prophet to come. There will be no more revelation from here on end, and only Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will return as he was someone who did not die, so he needs to come to earth so his soul can taste death just like the rest of us.

There are plenty of people who claim they're psychics, or receive messages - they're only getting gibberish information from the world of jinn. Every single supernatural, unexplained ghostly story you hear is the jinn.

Salam aleikum sister

You are right but since he does not recognise Quran to be the word of God, this argument proves him nothing.
This is why i adviced him to look at Quran and at islam, NOT at muslims.

To Mokko -- So my opinion about some Muslims is that their attitude to religion is closer to Abraham's father than to Abraham himself. The "content" of their beliefs could be the same as Abraham's, but prophets are usually more remarkable by their attitude than by the content of their beliefs. This is why prophets made their society progress. And why some "scholars of deen" make their society stagnate. Same beliefs, but different attitudes.

I can see that when someone feels disapointed by muslims, starts questioning islam. We are aware many of the behaviours are wrong, but this has nothing to do with islam.
Not all folow what parents folow, many of us came a long way of researches and logical thinking, belive it or not, dont make generalisations. But you need to do your own work. At the end maybe you will reach the same conclusion:
[5:3] “This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favors upon you, and have chosen for you, Islam as your religion.”

 

[mokko]

Salam aleikum sister

You are right but since he does not recognise Quran to be the word of God, this argument proves him nothing.
This is why i adviced him to look at Quran and at islam, NOT at muslims.

This is not exactly my viewpoint, but anyway, it is too difficult to communicate on this sensitive matter.

From what I read in the Quran (in arabic), my personal impression is that it contains mostly threats of horrible torture, and, sometimes, materialistic stuff for believers in paradise. There are also minor points on other things.

I also disagree with you, I should also look at Muslims, who read the Quran and apply it. If they failed to do something good with the Quran, it shows that the application of the Quran was too difficult for them. Why will I apply it better? I am not superman, just an ordinary guy.

For me, it is better to focus on methods that work for ordinary people, made by ordinary people. These human methods, you can eventually adjust or even contradict them, if you feel it.

You are great if you can apply "Allah-given" method better than other people did before you.

 

[Itqan Ullah]

I also disagree with you, I should also look at Muslims, who read the Quran and apply it.

Correct, then look at practicing Muslims. Or best read the biographies of Companions of prophet, and the Salaf (may allah have mercy on all of them) & scholars like Al-bukhari, Abu hanifa, As-shafi, an nawawi..

Your crowsourcing Idea is a logical paradox since you can never expect 4rth grade student to review someone PhD thesis, regardless they 2 or 200 in strength.


Regarding your Epilepsy query, how about these narrations:

Dawud reported from 'Amir who said: I asked 'Alqama if Ibn Mas'ud was present with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) on the night of the Jinn (the night when the Holy Prophet met them). He (Ibn Mas'uad) said: No, but we were in the company of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one night and we missed him. We searched for him in the valleys and the hills and said. He has either been taken away (by jinn) or has been secretly killed. He (the narrator) said. We spent the worst night which people could ever spend. When it was dawn we saw him coming from the side of Hiri'. He (the narrator) reported. We said: Messenger of Allah, we missed you and searched for you, but we could not find you and we spent the worst night which people could ever spend. He (the Holy Prophet) said: There came to me an inviter on behalf of the Jinn and I went along with him and recited to them the Qur'an. He (the narrator) said: He then went along with us and showed us their traces and traces of their embers.....[Muslim :: Book 4 : Hadith 903]

Were these companions suffering from same mental illness?

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Ask me (about matters pertaining to religion), but they (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) were too much overawed out of profound respect for him to ask him (anything). In the meanwhile a man came there, and sat near his knees and said: Messenger of Allah, what al-lslam is? -to which he (the Holy Prophet) replied: You must not associate anything with Allah, and establish prayer, pay the poor-rate (Zakat) and observe (the fasts) of Ramadan. He said: You (have) told the truth. He (again) said: Messenger of Allah, what al-Iman (the faith) is? He (the Holy Prophet) said: That you affirm your faith in Allah, His angels, His Books, His meeting, His Apostles, and that you believe in Resurrection and that you believe in Qadr (Divine Decree) in all its entirety, He (the inquirer) said: You (have) told the truth. He (again) said: Messenger of Allah, what al-Ihsan is? Upon this he (the Holy Prophet) said: (Al-Ihsan implies) that you fear Allah as if you are seeing Him, and though you see Him not, verily He is seeing you. He (the inquirer) said: You (have) told the truth. He (the inquirer) said: When there would be the hour (of Doom)? (Upon this) he (the HolyProphet said: The one who is being asked about it is no better informed than the inquirer himself. I, however, narrate some of its signs (and these are): when you see a slave (woman) giving birth to her master - that is one of the signs of (Doom) ; when you see barefooted, naked, deaf and dumb (ignorant and foolish persons) as the rulers of the earth - that is one of the signs of the Doom. And when you see the shepherds of black camels exult in buildings - that is one of the signs of Doom. The (Doom) is one of the five things (wrapped) in the unseen. No one knows them except Allah. Then (the Holy Prophet) recited (the folowing verse):" Verily Allah! with Him alone is the knowledge of the hour and He it is Who sends down the rain and knows that which is in the wombs and no person knows whatsoever he shall earn on morrow and a person knows not in whatsoever land he shall die. Verily Allah is Knowing, Aware. He (the narrator, Abu Huraira) said: Then the person stood up an (made his way). The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Bring him back to me. He was searched for, but they (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) could not find him. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) thereupon said: He was Gabriel and he wanted to teach you (things pertaining to religion) when you did not ask (them yourselves). [Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 6]

And these Sahaba could be mentally ill aswell?

Abu Huraira reported that Abu Jahl asked (people) whether Mubammad placed his face (on the ground) in their presence. It was said to him: Yes. He said: By Lit and Uzza. If I were to see him do that, I would trample his neck, or I would beamear his face with dust. He came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as he was engaged in prayer and thought of trampling his neck (and the people say) that he came near him but turned upon his heels and tried to repulse something with his hands. It was said to him: What is the matter with you? He said: There is between me and him a ditch of fire and terror and wings. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace he upon him) said: If he were to come near me the angels would have torn him to pieces. Then Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, revealed this verse- (the narrator) said: We do not whether it is the hadith transmitted te Abu Huraira or something conveyed to him from another source:" Nay, man is surely inordinate, because he looks upon himself as self-sufficient. Surely to thy Lord is the return. Hast thou seen him who forbids a servant when he prays? Seest thou if he is on the right way, or enjoins observance of piety? Seest thou if he [Abu Jah]] denies and turns away? Knowest he not that Allah sees? Nay. if he desists not, We will seize him by the forelock-a lying, sinful forelock. Then let him summon his council. We will summon the guards of the Hell. Nay! Obey not thou him" (Icvi. 6-19). (Rather prostrate thyself.) Ubaidullah made this addition: It was after this that (prostration) was enjoined upon and Ibn Abd al-Ala made this addition that by Nadia he meant his people. [Muslim :: Book 39 : Hadith 6718]

And Abu Jahl also was suffering from hallucinations?

I am just pointing out 3 narrations out of many narrations in which Allah exhalted showed his signs to believers and disbelievers, when we take all into account, we would have to agree whole mecca and medina was suffering from Epilepsy according to your theory.

If your looking for some detailed discussion I'll suggest you to go to: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/index.php

 

[strive-may-i]

Dont be susceptible, Be firm. One should look, examine from whole world, there are enough signs. Overwhelmed again, and going round and round!? There are two parts to this moral+faith. Both go hand in hand. Sister Hajjer has put that clearly.

This is not exactly my viewpoint, but anyway, it is too difficult to communicate on this sensitive matter.

From what I read in the Quran (in arabic), ................

I also disagree with you, I should also look at Muslims, who read the Quran and apply it. If they failed to do something good with the Quran, it shows that the application of the Quran was too difficult for them. Why will I apply it better?

This is how we see it. To blame the question paper, Self pity or aloof ?

I am not superman, just an ordinary guy. For me, it is better to focus on methods that work for ordinary people, made by ordinary people. These human methods, you can eventually adjust or even contradict them, if you feel it.

Sounds more like of the people, by the people for the people banner. Did you know the law in these lands is again on the divine principles given to Moosa (a), a messenger.

You are great if you can apply "Allah-given" method better than other people did before you.

So divine guidance is higher, hence the best to aim for. Fair enough. And why not to like it?
(Believers like it we aim for it. When slipped, a believer repents corrects, gathers himself again and aims for it, till the last breath. And you conveniently forget, that which sister Hajjer pointed out, imaan +manners makes a person complete. to ask those who are complete is sensible.)

So someone below ordinary has to aim at above ordinary to be comfortably ordinary. You cant deny that now. Especially when under the 'spell of feeling' or 'pressure of the present', the ordinary forgets, becomes lesser than ordinary, ending up doing less good and more bad. And when a human forgets, human becomes demon. And why like it?

“Those who spend (of that which Allah hath given them) in ease and in adversity, those who control their wrath and are forgiving toward mankind; Allah loveth the good;” [Qur'an 3:134]


"O you who have believed, when you go forth in the cause of Allah , investigate; and do not say to one who gives you [a greeting of] peace "You are not a believer," aspiring for the goods of worldly life; for with Allah are many acquisitions. You (yourselves) were like that before; then Allah conferred His favor upon you, so investigate. Indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted." [Qur'an 4:94]

On our own will, from deep within. Go steady and slow, is a better life motto.

 

[mokko]

did your read the links i gave?