A Muslimah’s ‘Awrah In Front Of A Disbelieving Woman

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TheAuthenticBase

Assalaamu 'alaykum!
Imaam Al-Qurtubee said in his famous tafseer:

“His statement “their women” refers to the Muslim women (1). The polytheist women, such as the disbelievers and their types are exempt from this. It is not permissible for a believing woman to uncover any part of her body in the presence of a disbelieving woman, unless she is her slave/servant.

Some scholars considered it detestable for a Muslim woman to host a Christian woman or have her ‘awrah looked at by her.

‘Umar Ibn Al-Khattaab once wrote a letter to Aboo ‘Ubaydah Ibn Al-Jarraah saying:

‘It has reached me that the Muslim women enter the public wash areas along with the disbelieving women. So prevent this and do not allow it, for indeed it is not permissible for a disbelieving woman to see a Muslim woman uncovered.’
So Aboo ‘Ubaydah stood up at that and called out saying:

‘Whichever woman enters the public bath areas without an excuse, not wanting except to purify her face, then may Allaah darken her face on the day when the faces will be whitened (purified).’ “​
[Tafseer Al-Qurtubee, 12/233]

Footnotes:

(1)
This is based on the saying of Allaah: “…And (tell them) not to reveal their zeenah (adornment) except to their husbands, their fathers… their women…” [Soorah Noor: 30-31]
 

septithol

Banned
‘Whichever woman enters the public bath areas without an excuse, not wanting except to purify her face, then may Allaah darken her face on the day when the faces will be whitened (purified).’ “

See, I don't like that. I don't think there is anything wrong with a person being a black and having a dark face or being white and having a white face, or having an in-between face. Why would God change someone's face color? Michael Jackson did that, and I think he ended up looking like an idiot.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
See, I don't like that. I don't think there is anything wrong with a person being a black and having a dark face or being white and having a white face, or having an in-between face. Why would God change someone's face color? Michael Jackson did that, and I think he ended up looking like an idiot.

With all due respect sepitithol, please don't pick on words, change their meaning and ask with a "see you gammos this is why I think you are nutheads." sort of words.

I don't need to go into detail and referance to show Islam cares not for cast and creed. The popular Last Hajj sermon is more than enough. You must have read it. If not, than wow! what are you doing at TTI?

When black is used like in the statement you quoted, it means "may shame and disgrace be on you", it can mean blackened with soot and dust i.e One who is dirty. Having black smudges, spots or soot on ones face is embarrasing for them and is insulting. The Jews used to blacken the face of the fornicators with soot. It can also mean their faces are darkened with misery, sadness and fear i.e like we say "he said darkly, He gave me a dark look etc". It means something unpleasant, to make it simple.

Have you never seen anyone getting darker when they go through harsh conditions of life like Physical or psycological pain? Too much sun or chilly winters can cause the same effect. So basically, it will be due to the burden and harshness of the day of resurrection for sinners who know they are about to be brought to justice.

It could be that a black woman's face shines and a white women end up having a dark/black face in Akhira, may Allaah save us all. So no, our DNA will still code for the skin tones we have, don't worry about taking whitening cream with you. It's our 'Amaal ad imaan that'll cause our face to brighten or darken. Make sure you have that.
 

Hajjerr

He is Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram
With all due respect sepitithol, please don't pick on words, change their meaning and ask with a "see you gammos this is why I think you are nutheads." sort of words.

I don't need to go into detail and referance to show Islam cares not for cast and creed. The popular Last Hajj sermon is more than enough. You must have read it. If not, than wow! what are you doing at TTI?

When black is used like in the statement you quoted, it means "may shame and disgrace be on you", it can mean blackened with soot and dust i.e One who is dirty. Having black smudges, spots or soot on ones face is embarrasing for them and is insulting. The Jews used to blacken the face of the fornicators with soot. It can also mean their faces are darkened with misery, sadness and fear i.e like we say "he said darkly, He gave me a dark look etc". It means something unpleasant, to make it simple.

Have you never seen anyone getting darker when they go through harsh conditions of life like Physical or psycological pain? Too much sun or chilly winters can cause the same effect. So basically, it will be due to the burden and harshness of the day of resurrection for sinners who know they are about to be brought to justice.

It could be that a black woman's face shines and a white women end up having a dark/black face in Akhira, may Allaah save us all. So no, our DNA will still code for the skin tones we have, don't worry about taking whitening cream with you. It's our 'Amaal ad imaan that'll cause our face to brighten or darken. Make sure you have that.

salam aleikum wa rahmatulay wa barakatuh,

Good clarification dear sister, may Allah reward you,

take care

:salam2:
 

septithol

Banned
Seeking Allah's Mercy: I am sorry you were offended by my comment, and glad that you have explained it. I tend to take things very literally sometimes.

At any rate, I don't understand the proscription against a Muslim women having her body uncovered in front of WOMEN non-Muslims. Unless the women in questions are lesbians, which most women are not, I don't really see what this is intended to do or prevent. I'm assuming this was decided in the time before photography, so the goal could not have been to prevent unscrupulous women from taking pictures of the Muslim women. Was there a problem at that time with non-Muslim women somehow cutting small peepholes (perhaps being paid to do so?) in the walls of a room, so men could look in?
 

septithol

Banned
Seeking Allah's Mercy: Also regarding dark faces, my own face tends to get 'dark' a lot. I work in a newspaper warehouse, so am always getting ink all over my face. And hands, and clothes. There's really no way to avoid it in this sort of work. So perhaps I am a bit over-sensitive about such talk of God making people's faces darker as a bad punishment of some sort.
 

Ershad

Junior Member
Assalamu Alaikkum,

I think what Aboo ‘Ubaydah refers to is the event when we will be resurrected naked on the day of Judgement. Allah says that the Muslims who made wudu and performed Salat will have those parts glowing bright and purified including face.

Hence, Aboo ‘Ubaydah said a woman who reveals her face to disbelieving women will have her face darkened on that day. I seek the forgiveness of Allah if I am wrong.

@Septithol Well, Just because most women are not lesbians, it is not safe to assume that the women in the public bath area at the given point of time are not lesbians. Moreover, Allah has stipulated before whom a woman can be uncovered. So, she should be covered before everyone else other than that, Period.. Also, I won't completely believe in people who don't believe in Allah and his Prophet. So, one cannot expect everyone using the public bath (anywhere for that matter) to be really good without any bad intentions. It is better to be safe than sorry, especially these days when privacy is becoming really hard and voyeurism is on high.
 

septithol

Banned
ErshadAhamed wrote:
Septithol Well, Just because most women are not lesbians, it is not safe to assume that the women in the public bath area at the given point of time are not lesbians. Moreover, Allah has stipulated before whom a woman can be uncovered. So, she should be covered before everyone else other than that, Period.. Also, I won't completely believe in people who don't believe in Allah and his Prophet. So, one cannot expect everyone using the public bath (anywhere for that matter) to be really good without any bad intentions. It is better to be safe than sorry, especially these days when privacy is becoming really hard and voyeurism is on high.

Ershad: Well, there are a few *advantages* to being a woman as tall as I am (5'9"). One of them, is that I don't worry much about being attacked by other *women*, regardless of whether they are lesbians or not. Not many women want to attack a woman who is 6 inches taller and 50 lbs heavier than them. The first, last, and only time I was beaten up by a woman (once I grew to my present height, that is, I was very short as a child), it was by a group of 6 of them. It *took* 6 of them to get me on the ground. Nuff said.

As for the other stuff, from my point of view, Muslim women seem to spend an awful lot of time obsessing over their own body, and who might possibly see it, under any conceivable circumstances.

Now, it seems to me that even if you operate under the assumption that deliberately showing any part of your body to a man is a sin (I don't necessarily agree with this, but let's assume it for the sake of argument), if a man has to go to some very complex scheme, absent the woman's knowledge, in order to see your body (ei, installing secret peepholes or cameras) that no sin would attach to the woman in this instance, she is a victim more than anything else.

The plain fact is, if some man really wants to see a particular woman partially or completely naked, he's probably going to be able to, at some point. Either he'll somehow get a hole or a camera in her house, or find out what places she goes to frequently, and get a hole or camera in the bathrooms there. It's a pointless worry to spend all your hours obsessing over that possibility. Most men, if some woman makes it reasonably difficult to see their body, will go find some other woman to look at.

Anyway, regarding the possibility of *some* women in a bathhouse or gymnasium being lesbians (even though most women are not), I think it would be a hardship for Muslim women either to have to do without baths or exercise, and it might be pointlessly expensive to build duplicate facilities, just for Muslim women. My suggestion as to this, would be that Muslim women go in *groups* to such places, so that if there are any lesbian women, or other women with bad ideas, they would hesitate to attack a group, for the same reason they generally hesitate to attack someone as tall as me. Or else give the women a gun and teach them how to use it. Not very many people, male or female, are very keen on attacking someone with a gun.
 

Ershad

Junior Member
ErshadAhamed wrote:

Ershad: Well, there are a few *advantages* to being a woman as tall as I am (5'9"). One of them, is that I don't worry much about being attacked by other *women*, regardless of whether they are lesbians or not. Not many women want to attack a woman who is 6 inches taller and 50 lbs heavier than them. The first, last, and only time I was beaten up by a woman (once I grew to my present height, that is, I was very short as a child), it was by a group of 6 of them. It *took* 6 of them to get me on the ground. Nuff said.

As for the other stuff, from my point of view, Muslim women seem to spend an awful lot of time obsessing over their own body, and who might possibly see it, under any conceivable circumstances.

No, muslim women don't spend too much time beautifying themselves or following your fashion trends. Your POV, like always, is about you. Don't blame muslim women. I rather find other women shameless[sorry, If that offends but that's the truth]. Now don't start telling me that you don't beautify etc. etc. You maybe perfect but Islam is for All. They are doing what their creator asked them to do. They would rather feel it a pleasure to follow his instructions.
Now, it seems to me that even if you operate under the assumption that deliberately showing any part of your body to a man is a sin (I don't necessarily agree with this, but let's assume it for the sake of argument), if a man has to go to some very complex scheme, absent the woman's knowledge, in order to see your body (ei, installing secret peepholes or cameras) that no sin would attach to the woman in this instance, she is a victim more than anything else.

The plain fact is, if some man really wants to see a particular woman partially or completely naked, he's probably going to be able to, at some point. Either he'll somehow get a hole or a camera in her house, or find out what places she goes to frequently, and get a hole or camera in the bathrooms there. It's a pointless worry to spend all your hours obsessing over that possibility. Most men, if some woman makes it reasonably difficult to see their body, will go find some other woman to look at.

As I said before, muslim women do their part in the best way they can. There are always exceptional cases and extension of limits. The men who do that, the creator will take care of them. Regarding second part, what if all women start wearing hijab and make it difficult for men to look at? Where would men go?

Anyway, regarding the possibility of *some* women in a bathhouse or gymnasium being lesbians (even though most women are not), I think it would be a hardship for Muslim women either to have to do without baths or exercise, and it might be pointlessly expensive to build duplicate facilities, just for Muslim women. My suggestion as to this, would be that Muslim women go in *groups* to such places, so that if there are any lesbian women, or other women with bad ideas, they would hesitate to attack a group, for the same reason they generally hesitate to attack someone as tall as me. Or else give the women a gun and teach them how to use it. Not very many people, male or female, are very keen on attacking someone with a gun.

Well, it seems your focus is only the states. There are countries where you can't carry the gun. The law doesn't allow that. Islam is our weapon in that case. Your solutions are hypothetical, constrained by several factors and cannot be implemented perfectly and rather will create other problems.
 

all4islam

Junior Member
No, muslim women don't spend too much time beautifying themselves or following your fashion trends. Your POV, like always, is about you. Don't blame muslim women. I rather find other women shameless[sorry, If that offends but that's the truth]. Now don't start telling me that you don't beautify etc. etc. You maybe perfect but Islam is for All. They are doing what their creator asked them to do. They would rather feel it a pleasure to follow his instructions.


As I said before, muslim women do their part in the best way they can. There are always exceptional cases and extension of limits. The men who do that, the creator will take care of them. Regarding second part, what if all women start wearing hijab and make it difficult for men to look at? Where would men go?

Well, it seems your focus is only the states. There are countries where you can't carry the gun. The law doesn't allow that. Islam is our weapon in that case. Your solutions are hypothetical, constrained by several factors and cannot be implemented perfectly and rather will create other problems.


Assalam-e-alikum
brother i just want to ask what do you mean by that actually i don't get it
don't be angry but just asking.
wasalam
 

Ershad

Junior Member
Assalamu Alaikkum,


Sister. I am not angry. That was a question in reply to the post by septithol. She was referring that Men with evil thoughts (not all men) would look at other women, if muslim women make it difficult for them to look at. So, I asked what if all women wear hijab and make it difficult for those men with evil thoughts. I hope that clarifies my statement.
 

all4islam

Junior Member
Assalam-e-alikum

Jazakallah Khair brother i understand now what you meant.
Inshallah i will know about islam like this more and soon.

May Allah guide us
 

septithol

Banned
Ershad Ahamed, you wrote:
No, muslim women don't spend too much time beautifying themselves or following your fashion trends.

Ah. I didn't say that they spent too much time 'beautifying themselves'. I said that spent an awful lot of time *obsessing* over their own bodies. *Obsession* can take many forms. Spending too much time worrying about beautifying your body, and putting in on display like a peacock is ONE form of *obsession*. However, the opposite behavior, spending too much time hiding your body and worrying about any part of it ever being seen, however unlikely the circumstance, is equally obsessive over one's own body.

Now don't start telling me that you don't beautify etc. etc. You maybe perfect but Islam is for All.

Well, first of all, as I've mentioned before, I'm an INTP type personality. About the MOST attention an INTP is capable of paying to their clothing, is that in the event (which doesn't happen very often) they happen to be interested in clothing and appearance at all, their clothing will be clean, neat, and might actually match. In the event that an INTP is not interested in their appearance (most of the time), they will be a rumpled mess.

That said, I don't regard 'beautifying' (though I've seldom interest in it myself) as being evil, or disqualifying one from being 'perfect'. I do think that some people spend far too much time beautifying themselves, and this is *obsessive* behavior, and there are probably far more important things for them to worry about and be doing, than making sure every single eyelash is in order. However, the opposite is true, spending long periods of time making sure your body is completely covered, and worrying constantly about whether some bit of your skin is seen by the wrong person, is equally *obsessive* and there are far more important things to do and worry about.

They are doing what their creator asked them to do. They would rather feel it a pleasure to follow his instructions.

I can understand that people would do what they believe their God asked them to do. Where I fail in my understanding, is why God would even worry about what people wear. I think of God as someone having a very large mind, and worrying about large things. To me, worrying about what someone is wearing, or any part of their body being seen is small and petty, about as significant as worrying about the exact number of peices of cereal someone eats for breakfast or the dust under someone's bed. But perhaps this is a failure on my part, since as an INTP I don't really think much about my appearance, it's a matter of unimportance to me most of the time, and I don't understand why strange people, who I didn't even know, or God, would worry about it either. There are far more important things to worry about.

There are countries where you can't carry the gun. The law doesn't allow that. Islam is our weapon in that case. Your solutions are hypothetical, constrained by several factors and cannot be implemented perfectly and rather will create other problems.

Okay, here's the deal. A GUN (or other powerful weapon) is pretty much the ONLY realistic way a woman alone can physically stop a man from raping her. The fact is, most men are physically far stronger than most women. Wearing hijab will not stop a man from raping her, he will simply rip it off. Nor will the fact that a woman is a Muslim, or any other religion, stop a man from raping her. Possibly, if the man were a what you might consider to be a *perfect* Muslim he would not rape her, but 100% perfection in 100% of all men in the world is not a realistic scenario.

The above being the case, anyone REALLY interested in preventing men from raping women, will advocate giving women guns, and teaching them to use them. Anyone making excuses as to why this should not be done, is not interested in actually preventing rape, regardless of whatever else they might say.
 

Ershad

Junior Member
I can understand that people would do what they believe their God asked them to do. Where I fail in my understanding, is why God would even worry about what people wear. I think of God as someone having a very large mind, and worrying about large things. To me, worrying about what someone is wearing, or any part of their body being seen is small and petty, about as significant as worrying about the exact number of peices of cereal someone eats for breakfast or the dust under someone's bed. But perhaps this is a failure on my part, since as an INTP I don't really think much about my appearance, it's a matter of unimportance to me most of the time, and I don't understand why strange people, who I didn't even know, or God, would worry about it either. There are far more important things to worry about.

Ah, there you go. Now, let me give you some of the attributes of Allah in contrast to "your understanding" and I will let you decide who is the better to give decisions. Now, Allah is all-knowledgeable i.e. he knows the future, he knows the past & present completely. He knows the hearts and minds of every single person. And his understanding is several order of magnitude more than yours. So, always the person who has better understanding gives better solutions.. isn't it? So, considering future, past, present, men, society and everything else in society..etc. God has given women an optimized solution which fails your understanding because of the limitation of human mind. Well, don't take it as a personal thing, even there are several counter-intuitive things in nature and also, in my daily life, in which I put trust on the solution of God rather than my own mind. That is how it works with us.

Okay, here's the deal. A GUN (or other powerful weapon) is pretty much the ONLY realistic way a woman alone can physically stop a man from raping her. The fact is, most men are physically far stronger than most women. Wearing hijab will not stop a man from raping her, he will simply rip it off. Nor will the fact that a woman is a Muslim, or any other religion, stop a man from raping her. Possibly, if the man were a what you might consider to be a *perfect* Muslim he would not rape her, but 100% perfection in 100% of all men in the world is not a realistic scenario.

The above being the case, anyone REALLY interested in preventing men from raping women, will advocate giving women guns, and teaching them to use them. Anyone making excuses as to why this should not be done, is not interested in actually preventing rape, regardless of whatever else they might say.

Do you rule out the possibility that a man might snatch the gun from her and use it against her? Or do you rule out the possibility that a woman might use it to kill innocents? Also, a man is more physically strong than woman- That is science. So, any solution you give should be considering all possibilities. I agree modesty might be a weak weapon which prevents provocation but cannot harm who tries to attack but it is a solution considering all possibilities. For other things, it is destiny and it is the decree of the God. Nothing provides 100% guarantee of protection from anything that is harmful except the will of God.

And Allah knows the best.
 

septithol

Banned
Do you rule out the possibility that a man might snatch the gun from her and use it against her?

Ha! You try 'snatching' my gun from me, and we'll see how well that works. Hint: you better be able to run faster than 1000 feet per second. Which I don't think anybody can. 'Snatching' the gun away only works if the woman doesn't shoot. That's why you teach her to USE the gun.

God has given women an optimized solution which fails your understanding because of the limitation of human mind.

Assuming I accept (which I don't) that your version of things, namely Islam is an 'optimized solution', that doesn't mean it is a perfect, 100% solution. That being the case, if one's real goal is to prevent rape, then why not use other solutions solutions as well, in certain circumstances where your 'optimized solution' fails, then why not have a different solution, such as women owning and knowing how to use guns, to fall back on, in order to prevent rape. This is sound engineering, it is why you put more than one brake in an elevator, in case one brake fails, you have a second one to fall back on.

Unless, of course, your real goal is NOT to prevent rape.
 

Ershad

Junior Member
Ha! You try 'snatching' my gun from me, and we'll see how well that works. Hint: you better be able to run faster than 1000 feet per second. Which I don't think anybody can. 'Snatching' the gun away only works if the woman doesn't shoot. That's why you teach her to USE the gun.

Again, you give your solutions only considering yourself. Even if you teach someone to use a gun, you don't use a real person when you teach. Your training never gets closer to the real situation. Sometimes you are caught unaware when you are not ready to pull the trigger. In that case, when you are ambushed, there is a probability of failing which you are not considering. Working on a flight simulator is not the same as flying.

Assuming I accept (which I don't) that your version of things, namely Islam is an 'optimized solution', that doesn't mean it is a perfect, 100% solution. That being the case, if one's real goal is to prevent rape, then why not use other solutions solutions as well, in certain circumstances where your 'optimized solution' fails, then why not have a different solution, such as women owning and knowing how to use guns, to fall back on, in order to prevent rape. This is sound engineering, it is why you put more than one brake in an elevator, in case one brake fails, you have a second one to fall back on.

Unless, of course, your real goal is NOT to prevent rape.

Well, Sharia doesn't prevent muslims from carrying weapon (to my knowledge). So you can. Since not all can afford a gun nor it is a basic need, it cannot be made mandatory. But, what I am saying is hijab ( for both men( lowering the gaze) and women ) is the minimum we can do to prevent such crimes. To prevent provocation and to prevent situations which could lead to such crimes. Islam is perfect, Qur'an is perfect, its solutions are perfect. Just because some muslims don't implement well, doesn't mean it is not perfect.

P.S. Please use metric system when you address an international audience. Yes, its annoying.
 

TheAuthenticBase

Assalaamu 'alaykum!
Seeking Allah's Mercy: I am sorry you were offended by my comment, and glad that you have explained it. I tend to take things very literally sometimes.

At any rate, I don't understand the proscription against a Muslim women having her body uncovered in front of WOMEN non-Muslims. Unless the women in questions are lesbians, which most women are not, I don't really see what this is intended to do or prevent. I'm assuming this was decided in the time before photography, so the goal could not have been to prevent unscrupulous women from taking pictures of the Muslim women. Was there a problem at that time with non-Muslim women somehow cutting small peepholes (perhaps being paid to do so?) in the walls of a room, so men could look in?

WHY MUSLIM WOMEN ARE SUPPOSED TO COVER IN FRONT OF NON MUSLIM WOMEN

A muslim women is supposed to cover her beauty from all strange men...

If she reveals her beauty to non muslim women, they may talk about her beauty to other men (due to them not knowing our rules on hijaab). Hence the reason why musli women are obliged to cover in front of non muslim women.
 

samiha

---------
Staff member
:salam2:

I'm not sure who closed this thread, but I just wanted to add in one quick reply to this, so that it wasn't closed with only one seeming opinion, because on this topic amongst the scholars there is a valid ikhtilaaf.

Some say that it is permissible to uncover in front of disbelieving women, and they have their evidences for this opinion as well. In fact it seems to be the predominate opinion on Islam-QA with certain conditions, so I will inshaAllaah post them here, along with the other links discussing it, so a broader scope can be reached through this thread.

IslamQA said:
With regard to the issue of kaafir women seeing what ordinarily appears of the Muslim woman, this is an issue concerning which the Muslim scholars of the past and present have differed. Under Question no. 2198 (linked below) you will find a summary of what the scholars have said and the evidence for each opinion. You will notice that those who say that it is permissible for a kaafir woman to see a Muslim woman without hijaab have more than one piece of evidence to support their view.

But it is worth pointing out the following:

1 – If a Muslim woman has saheeh evidence concerning some matter of sharee’ah, and the evidence is clear and the meaning is apparent, then she should follow it; it is not essential to have two or more pieces of evidence for every issue.

2 – If the kaafir woman is not trustworthy and there is the fear that she may describe the Muslim woman to her husband or say something that will harm her honour, then the Muslim woman has to beware of her by wearing hijaab, not mixing with her and so on.

3 – The view that Muslim women should wear hijaab in front of kaafir women is a valid opinion and is correct to some extent. Many of the salaf (first generations of Islam) expressed this view. So if a Muslim woman wants to be on the safe side regarding her religion and follow this opinion, she may do that. It is hoped that her caution and her keenness to avoid something doubtful will bring good results. But she should not denounce those who differ from her in that, so long as the matter is subject to ijtihaad and differences of scholarly opinion, especially when there is no fear of fitnah from the kaafir women.

4 – Women should not go too far in uncovering in front of their mahrams or Muslim women, let alone in front of kaafir women. Rather they should not show any more than that which ordinarily appears, namely the hands, calves, neck and hair. Modesty is a branch of faith. You will find more details and further explanation under Question no. 6596. And Allaah knows best.

May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad.


Further explanation of the ruling which says that it is permissible for kaafir women to see Muslim women without hijaab

When is it permissible for a woman to uncover her face?

wasalaam
 
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